Support NeoGAF

[Durante]

If storefront exclusivity that can be broken with these thin API compatibility layers is what it takes to get Oculus to fund developers of larger-scale games like Cronos, Eve, etc, then I'm fine with it. If only the barriers between consoles and PCs were so easy to circumvent, lol.

edit: and SteamVR's dashboard surprised me with how well it worked. Better than Big Picture, I'd say. It's not quite as polished as the Oculus storefront (from what I've tried on my DK2), but it obviously does much more, so that's plenty excusable.

Yeah, it was surprisingly polished. I expected it to be more janky at launch.

In a way I'd argue it actually works better than Oculus Home, simply because of the tracked controller input. And as you say, it does a lot more.

And here I thought they wanted to support the Vive, but HTC and Valve were in the way.

That was always a ridiculous claim.

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

I've received a pre-authorisation email this morning for my Vive. I ordered it at the end of March.

Does anyone have any idea of the time frame from pre order authorizationnto when they actually take the funds?

 

[Zepp Twofist]

It's behind the Forbes ad-blocker wall, but here's an article just posted by Oculus Head of Studios Jason Rubin:

In Defense of Exclusives

“The view that exclusives are evil is based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of business itself,” Rubin tells me. “That’s a completely self-interested way of looking at the world

People having self interest in mind when buying entertainment products from companies. Well, who knew?

 

[OmarTheHippo]

I've received a pre-authorisation email this morning for my Vive. I ordered it at the end of March.

Does anyone have any idea of the time frame from pre order authorizationnto when they actually take the funds?

Last week:

Friday: Notification of pre-authorization
Sunday: Preauthorization occur
Monday-Wednesday: Orders ship, preauthorizations turn to charges
Thursday: Preauthorizations drop off
Thursday-Friday: Orders still ship, and charges appear on those whose preauthorization had dropped

Essentially, it can happen anytime once the preauthorization starts. It just depends on where you are in the que that week. Follow the reddit daily updates to get a feel for which orders are going out when

 

[Zepp Twofist]

Last week:

Friday: Notification of pre-authorization
Sunday: Preauthorization occur
Monday-Wednesday: Orders ship, preauthorizations turn to charges
Thursday: Preauthorizations drop off
Thursday-Friday: Orders still ship, and charges appear on those whose preauthorization had dropped
n

Mine goes something like this:
Friday: Notification of pre-authorization
Sunday: Preauthorization occur
Crickets.

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

Last week:

Friday: Notification of pre-authorization
Sunday: Preauthorization occur
Monday-Wednesday: Orders ship, preauthorizations turn to charges
Thursday: Preauthorizations drop off
Thursday-Friday: Orders still ship, and charges appear on those whose preauthorization had dropped

Essentially, it can happen anytime once the preauthorization starts. It just depends on where you are in the que that week. Follow the reddit daily updates to get a feel for which orders are going out when

Many thanks. I wasn't expecting it to be as early in May as this but I guess I'll survive!

 

[StonedRider]

A question to VR GAF. Hope this is the right thread for this question.

I have 5.1 HT speakers + receiver connected through hdmi cable (with 1080p video pass-through to TV).
Do majority of current VR games support speakers or I will be forced to use headphones? The difference between speakers and headphones setup is how positional sound is processed. AFAIK Elite Dangerous has speakers option in audio settings vor VR. What about other games?

I hate headphones

Another problem I see - if VR headset uses hdmi connection, I will not be able to output non-VR picture with audio to receiver through hdmi?

 

[marc^o^]

Many thanks. I wasn't expecting it to be as early in May as this but I guess I'll survive!

Same here, got the email this morning and I'm still hesitant. Does the Vive still resell well at this stage, just in case I decide not to keep it?

 

[Arulan]

A question to VR GAF. Hope this is the right thread for this question.

I have 5.1 HT speakers + receiver connected through hdmi cable (with 1080p video pass-through to TV).
Do majority of current VR games support speakers or I will be forced to use headphones? The difference between speakers and headphones setup is how positional sound is processed. AFAIK Elite Dangerous has speakers option in audio settings vor VR. What about other games?

I hate headphones

Another problem I see - if VR headset uses hdmi connection, I will not be able to output non-VR picture with audio to receiver through hdmi?

As soon as you turn your body, speakers wouldn't be able to give you the correct spatial information. In order for speakers to work, the game or VR API would have to know the location of the center speaker (ideally all of them) with respect to your initial orientation (likely easier with SteamVR's room setup as it can defined as a fixed point relative to other information). In other words, something has to be able to adjust your speaker's output (i.e. turn 45 degrees to your left, and left channel becomes center, center becomes right, etc.) as your turn around, and ideally even as your approach or move away from each speaker. I don't believe anything currently does this (I did see a video a little while ago in which Lucasfilm's ILM used a setup like this).

 

[PdotMichael]

I am pretty interested in the HTC solution but after reading some comments that Vive's image quality is worse than Rift I'm not so sure if I should get it.

Could only test the Rift and thought already that the image quality is okay but could be better. Is the difference really visible or just if one can compare both directly?

 

[KingSnake]

I am pretty interested in the HTC solution but after reading some comments that Vive's image quality is worse than Rift I'm not so sure if I should get it.

I don't think this is true. The resolution is the same. HTC has slightly bigger FOV. Rift has slightly denser pixels. Both have artifacts due to lens, Vive like a Halo and Rift like god rays and from the numerous accounts the ones on Rift seems to be much more distracting. Vive has a much brighter screen.

Edit: This was a mantra before launch who proved to be wrong and I don't remember any recent comments that put Rift with a better image quality, except for Elite Dangerous and that's happening because the game renders a lower resolution on Vive for whatever reason.

 

[viveks86]

As soon as you turn your body, speakers wouldn't be able to give you the correct spatial information. In order for speakers to work, the game or VR API would have to know the location of the center speaker (ideally all of them) with respect to your initial orientation (likely easier with SteamVR's room setup as it can defined as a fixed point relative to other information). In other words, something has to be able to adjust your speaker's output (i.e. turn 45 degrees to your left, and left channel becomes center, center becomes right, etc.) as your turn around, and ideally even as your approach or move away from each speaker. I don't believe anything currently does this (I did see a video a little while ago in which Lucasfilm's ILM used a setup like this).

Add to the fact that each of these speakers aren't built the same, I don't see this happening. Hearing the center channel on your rear left speaker, for example, would sound so different from center channel on center. Also none of them do bass well so we will have to rely on the stationary sub woofer which would end up being positionally inaccurate. Surround sound is pretty much designed with a stationary audience in mind. The only games where this would be feasible are seated games, and even then, they won't be ideal since you still move your head around.

 

[KingSnake]

Coming back to this:

It's behind the Forbes ad-blocker wall, but here's an article just posted by Oculus Head of Studios Jason Rubin:

In Defense of Exclusives

In a perfect world, all VR companies would be doing the same thing, and we’d all have content that is good and exclusive

Rubin continues: “So in a world in which Oculus invested the money and then said ’here, everyone should have it,’ we actually wouldn’t invest the money. We would stop, because there would be no reason to do it if everyone else was getting benefit. We would have to match their price, match their marketing, do everything that they’re doing. So that doesn’t work.”

Rubin explains to me. “I don’t get that. I don’t see the rational sense in that. It also has created an incredible amount of joy in the console business to have exclusives, and no one has been hurt by it.”

So much for Oculus being open and not poisoning the well. If they want so much to be a console, maybe they should create a console for the next iteration, see how that works. Or ask Microsoft how well buying exclusives works for them.

 

[marc^o^]

Coming back to this:









So much for Oculus being open and not poisoning the well. If they want so much to be a console, maybe they should create a console for the next iteration, see how that works. Or ask Microsoft how well buying exclusives works for them.

Yes, PC was immune from this crap. Not anymore.

 

[mrklaw]

I am pretty interested in the HTC solution but after reading some comments that Vive's image quality is worse than Rift I'm not so sure if I should get it.

Could only test the Rift and thought already that the image quality is okay but could be better. Is the difference really visible or just if one can compare both directly?

they're both 'ok'. I wouldn't make a purchasing decision based on that. Biggest differences seem to be comfort; exclusives; 360 degree tracking.

Vive doesn't have the comfort of the rift; vive doesn't have the exclusives that oculus has (other than ones that are exclusive by function until oculus has touch); vive has 360 degree tracking.

I love my vive. I can forgive comfort and none of the exclusives are so amazing I would forego the tracking of the vive, it really is a huge benefit and should be a baseline feature in VR IMO.

 

[Wrestlemania]

The article doesn't differentiate between hardware exclusive and storefront exclusive. I can understand exactly why they want games they've funded to be exclusive to their store to help recoup costs.
It'll be interesting to see if the issues around officially supporting the Vive in Oculus Home are solved by the time Touch is out and they more or less have feature parity.

 

[BigTnaples]

Rift with a better image quality, except for Elite Dangerous and that's happening because the game renders a lower resolution on Vive for whatever reason.

Ah really? How much lower? Have the devs acknowledged it?

 

[KingSnake]

The article doesn't differentiate between hardware exclusive and storefront exclusive. I can understand exactly why they want games they've funded to be exclusive to their store to help recoup costs.
It'll be interesting to see if the issues around officially supporting the Vive in Oculus Home are solved by the time Touch is out and they more or less have feature parity.

He talks about VR companies and that's hardware. Also this quote make it obvious he is talking about hardware:

“It’s this weird little microcosm of today where someone made a decision to buy a piece of hardware, found out later that all the software wasn’t coming to them, and is angry with the people investing in the ecosystem instead of the people who aren’t investing in the ecosystem,” Rubin explains to me.

Combined with the other statements it's pretty clear they have no intention to support any other hardware.

 

[Wrestlemania]

He talks about VR companies and that's hardware. Also this quote make it obvious he is talking about hardware:



Combined with the other statements it's pretty clear they have no intention to support any other hardware.

That wouldn't be a decision he's involved in, is it? Unless you think this is them going back on/not believing Luckey's previous statements about trying to support other hardware.

 

[Owlowiscious]

It is my opinion that there is only one choice right now. The Vive. When Touch controls are released for the Rift, then there will be a choice between the two (probably Rift > Vive).

But since touch isn't out I wouldn't use the argument that you should get the rift now since touch will come out someday. Because of all the shipping issues with everything coupled with zero information on Touch progress, price, or specific release dates.

 

[KingSnake]

Ah really? How much lower? Have the devs acknowledged it?

I don't know if there is a new development on this story, but I remember this thread on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/4f0g0j/possible_confirmation_of_vive_rendering/

That wouldn't be a decision he's involved in, is it? Unless you think this is them going back on/not believing Luckey's previous statements about trying to support other hardware.

Luckey's statement didn't have any actual commitment in it, he was just trying to switch blame on somebody else. Which he seems very good at recently. Given the amount of times Luckey's statements were contradicted by reality I wouldn't consider any of them as an official committed Oculus position.

 

[dumbo]

I don't know if there is a new development on this story, but I remember this thread on reddit:

This reddit/wiki seems to be a good summary of the current thinking on ED:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/wiki/elitedangerous

 

[KingSnake]

This reddit/wiki seems to be a good summary of the current thinking on ED:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/wiki/elitedangerous

Thanks! This is strange:

First result: The debugger confirms that the final render target copy copies from a 1512x1680 render target. But the text is blurry even on my monitor.

 

[BigTnaples]

Thanks! This is strange:

Strange indeed. So I guess what I am left asking is, is this fixable? Or inherent problem with the headset? That might help me decide whether just to keep my Vive, or if I should also keep my rift..

 

[KingSnake]

There is a follow-up from CrossVR:

Conclusion: I don't have time to go more in-depth, but I conclude that the text is indeed more blurry than it should be due to a texture filtering issue.
It is likely caused by the fact that they forgot to generate mipmaps for the text, even though they set the texture filter to one that expects mipmaps. Without mipmaps the text won't scale down properly and you get blurry text as a result.

Third result: The texture with text is being rendered in-game with the MIN_MAG_LINEAR_MIP_POINT filter. But it doesn't contain any mipmaps, this may be a clue as to what's going on.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4fp2yq/wiki_page_for_elite_dangerous_issue_research/

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

Same here, got the email this morning and I'm still hesitant. Does the Vive still resell well at this stage, just in case I decide not to keep it?

Seems to be a few of them selling for £900-£1k at auction, the ones straight listing as buy it now for £1k are being ignored from the sample I looked at.

I'd considered buying one last week and just selling mine when it appears but baulked at the cost.

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't think this is true. The resolution is the same. HTC has slightly bigger FOV. Rift has slightly denser pixels. Both have artifacts due to lens, Vive like a Halo and Rift like god rays and from the numerous accounts the ones on Rift seems to be much more distracting. Vive has a much brighter screen.

Edit: This was a mantra before launch who proved to be wrong and I don't remember any recent comments that put Rift with a better image quality, except for Elite Dangerous and that's happening because the game renders a lower resolution on Vive for whatever reason.

they're both 'ok'. I wouldn't make a purchasing decision based on that. Biggest differences seem to be comfort; exclusives; 360 degree tracking.

Vive doesn't have the comfort of the rift; vive doesn't have the exclusives that oculus has (other than ones that are exclusive by function until oculus has touch); vive has 360 degree tracking.

I love my vive. I can forgive comfort and none of the exclusives are so amazing I would forego the tracking of the vive, it really is a huge benefit and should be a baseline feature in VR IMO.

Yeah, the tracking solution of the Vive is sure in a different league compared to the competition. I dont really want something on a lower level in freedom and accurancy.

I just hope that the exclusive deals aren't a dealbreaker for the Vive.

 

[JambiBum]

The only time I ever notice the "god rays" in my rift is during loading screens with bright text (usually white) on a black background. Other than that I don't notice them at all and they've never showed up (or I haven't noticed) during gameplay so to me they aren't a big deal.

 

[Wrestlemania]

The only time I ever notice the "god rays" in my rift is during loading screens with bright text (usually white) on a black background. Other than that I don't notice them at all and they've never showed up (or I haven't noticed) during gameplay so to me they aren't a big deal.

I have noticed them during gameplay, but only in the same situation with very bright images/text on a dark background. It's odd that a lot of developers, and even Oculus themselves, haven't done more to design around it. Not having loading screens with black backgrounds would be a good start.

I don't really have a preference for one over the other. The Rift effect covers more of the screen but the Vive one is a bit sharper as opposed to the slight blur of the Rift. I hope they both move to lenses which improve it in their next revisions.

 

[StonedRider]

As soon as you turn your body, speakers wouldn't be able to give you the correct spatial information. In order for speakers to work, the game or VR API would have to know the location of the center speaker (ideally all of them) with respect to your initial orientation (likely easier with SteamVR's room setup as it can defined as a fixed point relative to other information). In other words, something has to be able to adjust your speaker's output (i.e. turn 45 degrees to your left, and left channel becomes center, center becomes right, etc.) as your turn around, and ideally even as your approach or move away from each speaker. I don't believe anything currently does this (I did see a video a little while ago in which Lucasfilm's ILM used a setup like this).

This could be a problem with Vive room 360 degrees VR experience, especially when I come close to any speaker, but in fixed position seated cockpit games when I slightly turn or tilt my head, I do not see a problem.

Now, when I turn my head while driving in Assetto Corsa, sound position change seems to be quite realistic because I turn my head relative to speakers. Thats why Elite Dangerous has such option, while using VR headset with speakers, sound renders relative to cockpit position, not to your head position.

Add to the fact that each of these speakers aren't built the same, I don't see this happening. Hearing the center channel on your rear left speaker, for example, would sound so different from center channel on center. Also none of them do bass well so we will have to rely on the stationary sub woofer which would end up being positionally inaccurate. Surround sound is pretty much designed with a stationary audience in mind. The only games where this would be feasible are seated games, and even then, they won't be ideal since you still move your head around.

It is hard for human ear to determine low-freq sound direction - that's why subwoofer can be located in any corner of your HT room.

Ok, looks like I will have to stick with headphones anyway. Will stereo headphones be enough? Or surround headphones are must have?

 

[plagiarize]

This could be a problem with Vive room 360 degrees VR experience, especially when I come close to any speaker, but in fixed position seated cockpit games when I slightly turn or tilt my head, I do not see a problem.

Now, when I turn my head while driving in Assetto Corsa, sound position change seems to be quite realistic because I turn my head relative to speakers. Thats why Elite Dangerous has such option, while using VR headset with speakers, sound renders relative to cockpit position, not to your head position.



It is hard for human ear to determine low-freq sound direction - that's why subwoofer can be located in any corner of your HT room.

Ok, looks like I will have to stick with headphones anyway. Will stereo headphones be enough? Or surround headphones are must have?

Stereo headphones are preferred in VR, as the audio moves with your head movement, you'll get better positional results with stereo headphones than surround sound ones, as far as I remember.

 

[wonderpug]

Many (most?) VR games are taking advantage of binaural audio to give you more 3 dimensional spatial audio than we've ever had before in gaming, and for that to work you want stereo headphones and definitely don't want surround headphones.

 

[Onemic]

And here I thought they wanted to support the Vive, but HTC and Valve were in the way.

....People actually believed that bs?

 

[StonedRider]

Stereo headphones are preferred in VR, as the audio moves with your head movement, you'll get better positional results with stereo headphones than surround sound ones, as far as I remember.

Many (most?) VR games are taking advantage of binaural audio to give you more 3 dimensional spatial audio than we've ever had before in gaming, and for that to work you want stereo headphones and definitely don't want surround headphones.

Thank you, very useful information. Will look for good stereo headphones then.

 

[BeEatNU]

For people who have both.....

If you had to do it all over again knowing what you know now. What would you choose?
*I currently have a rift, end up canceling my vive april order*

?

 

[Zepp Twofist]

So HTC in investing $100m in accelerating VR development:
https://www.vrfocus.com/2016/04/htc-announce-100m-accelerator-program-for-vr/

 

[Krejlooc]

going from unity and working with sixense plugins on my DK2 to UE4 with a vive and the steamVR motion controller abstraction layer is like night and fucking day. Jesus christ it's so much easier to work with overall.

 

[Wrestlemania]

For people who have both.....

If you had to do it all over again knowing what you know now. What would you choose?
*I currently have a rift, end up canceling my vive april order*

I'd stick to what I'm doing - buy both, play with them for a bit, sell on and then wait until Touch is out before deciding if I want to jump in again.

 

[UnrealEck]

One of the funniest things I've seen about VR. The thing that makes it even funnier is how casual Will is talking while it's happening.

 

[serversurfer]

The way Lighthouse works is there is a LED flash that denotes the beginning of the scan pass for the laser. Then the laser scans across the room in a known pattern taking a known amount of time.

The photosensor mounted on the headset sees the LED flash denoting the beginning of the scan, then begins a high resolution timer, waiting for the laser to hit it. Based on the time the laser hits the sensor, it can then calculate its direction relative to the watchtower, multiple sensor hits result in a position via triangulation.

The more sensors on the object, the more precise and reliable the position information. This is fine, since the sensors are dirt cheap to implement (they're just a photosensor and a timer, not a camera).

This visualization makes it easier to understand what it is doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=J54dotTt7k0

The way to think of Lighthouse is that it works kind of like an old-fashioned SNES CRT light gun (like you use in Duck Hunt), but in 3 dimensions instead of 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun

Say, this was super informative! <3 TYVM <3

I'd only ever heard people talk about the LED telling the beacons when it's their turn, so I had no idea it also served as a starter pistol for the beam sweeps. That's pretty handy. You don't happen to know how they coordinate 3+ beacons, do you?

going from unity and working with sixense plugins on my DK2 to UE4 with a vive and the steamVR motion controller abstraction layer is like night and fucking day. Jesus christ it's so much easier to work with overall.

Oh, so I chose well with UE4? Anything else I should know before I drop $300 on an OSVR for my Mini? Intel Iris should cut it for basic experimentation, right? Similarly, I doubt Vive or Rift would be particularly pleased with it?

 

[Sky Chief]

Coming back to this:

So much for Oculus being open and not poisoning the well. If they want so much to be a console, maybe they should create a console for the next iteration, see how that works. Or ask Microsoft how well buying exclusives works for them.

Who really cares? Their exclusive software through money hatting is not nearly as compelling as what they're missing out on by failing to launch with a real VR control scheme. They need these funded exclusives because their product is inferior. I don't think it will help them much until they can match the Vive's capabilities and by then I think most game designers will want to go for as big a market as possible.

 

[Ionic]

Who really cares? Their exclusive software through money hatting is not nearly as compelling as what they're missing out on by failing to launch with a real VR control scheme.

While you and I might agree on this point, there are still a very large number of people who look at Luckey's Tale or Chronos (which are indeed very nice games) and see those as the big games to have. They're familiar looking games that take the formulas we know from current games and give them a VR twist. The 1 to 1 motion controls however are unknowns to many so they see Space Pirate Trainer or Hover Junkers and think "These are nice demos, but they can't hold my attention". Meanwhile we may have played Audioshield more than the vast majority of people have even considered playing Luckey's Tale. But in the end these big traditional games are what is associated with a quality product launch.

Hopefully once Oculus gets motion controls going we'll see an explosion of non-exclusive motion control game development since the market will be much bigger. And of course we have HTC's huge investment to consider as well.

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

Got my Vive pre authorisation email this morning and that's my account been charged tonight.

 

[jaypah]

Got my Vive pre authorisation email this morning and that's my account been charged tonight.

When did you order?

 

[Fried Food]

Who really cares? Their exclusive software through money hatting is not nearly as compelling as what they're missing out on by failing to launch with a real VR control scheme. They need these funded exclusives because their product is inferior. I don't think it will help them much until they can match the Vive's capabilities and by then I think most game designers will want to go for as big a market as possible.

Oculus don't seem to be missing out on much by not have motion controls at launch. Very few people have a VR headset and still very few will have them by the time touch launches

 

[Wrestlemania]

Who really cares? Their exclusive software through money hatting is not nearly as compelling as what they're missing out on by failing to launch with a real VR control scheme.

I'm guessing the "money hatting" will continue once they've launched Touch. So look forward to that!

 

[StudioTan]

Who really cares? Their exclusive software through money hatting is not nearly as compelling as what they're missing out on by failing to launch with a real VR control scheme. They need these funded exclusives because their product is inferior. I don't think it will help them much until they can match the Vive's capabilities and by then I think most game designers will want to go for as big a market as possible.

Developers were working on controller based games for the Rift LONG before there were motion controllers for either platform. There is a reason the Rift has more complete games whereas the Vive games feel mostly like tech demos, they've been in development a lot longer.

VR is in it's infancy, in the grand scheme of things 6 months won't mean much. Everything feels heightened right now.

 

[Melchettsmoustache]

When did you order?

25/3, UK and paid with debit card.

 

[Compsiox]

I thought I'd share this. No comment on my part. Only: Damn

 

[Bsigg12]

I thought I'd share this. No comment on my part. Only: Damn

I have to wonder how much Facebook/Oculus PR has tried to limit was Palmer says because of exactly things like this. It's a really bad look.