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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
Those VR boards have turned into total manchild carnivals. To be fair he seems like he fits right in with that crowd sometimes.
The current topic of discussion there is, unsurprisingly, "censorship" and the evils of moderating.
Original comment's buried in the threads, but it's in the post history:
https://www.reddit.com/user/palmerluckey
This response is interesting:
"We're working on foveated rendering on mobile", pretty much.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
CNN (Warning: Sound), Popular Science, Inverse, and TechRadar all covered Palmer's comments on Reddit.
Nesmaster75
Member
For those that have a Vive, have any of you run into the issues I'm having? I posted a Reddit thread about it & still have really bad lag (like, with the HMD on getting about 1fps) & an issue where the screen is constantly turning gray or flickering. I literally can't play any application. If anyone has a solution, please form the love of god let me know so I can actually use this thing. All of my pc specs and the things that I've tried are in the Reddit thread. If anyone thinks they can help, please do. These past few days have been absolute hell for me..
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4gg18f/headset_tracking_is_incredibly_laggy_for_me/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4gg18f/headset_tracking_is_incredibly_laggy_for_me/
Try every USB port you have and see if that helps. A lot of problems seem to revolve around USB ports.
Zalusithix
Member
I think it's safe to say that he wont be challenged on the statement that mobile will never be as powerful as a PC. Well, unless we're comparing state of the art high end mobile to a bargain bin outdated PC. Mobile might eventually be "good enough" but it sure as hell isn't ever going to match tech in the same generation that can suck down hundreds of watts and dump the heat via huge heatsinks and fans.
ewwww
If you're looking for a comparison between the Rift and the Vive, this long video from Tested is one of the best unbiased ones I've seen. If you're looking for more info on sales numbers and shipping kerfuffles, I haven't seen much like that recently.
Thanks, I was looking for stuff like that.
Thanks homie. I just got updated to "Pending Fullfilment" which reading around could mean any fucking thing really.
.......
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I had seen the articles about Palmer's behavior, which I felt was semi-related to VR as he has largely been the face of it, and posted them. I went to his Twitter to see if he had tweeted anything about it and stumbled upon that factoid and edited my original post. In my head it all felt related but in retrospect I see that it doesn't have a place in this thread.
they have the star wars light sabre demo, and also made the iron man demo for gear VR.
Palmer Luckey having a spat with Oculus fans on Reddit.
https://np.reddit.com/r/oculus/comm...er_i_prefer_production_that/d2h9uud?context=3
Edit: d'uh, posted already.
https://np.reddit.com/r/oculus/comm...er_i_prefer_production_that/d2h9uud?context=3
Edit: d'uh, posted already.
sexy hot:
This is making me question whether I should keep my Rift or not. Both will show up this week and initially I figured I would keep the Rift and had yet to make up my mind on the Vive. But now I'm wondering if I should keep the Vive instead.
For those of you who have both, which would you keep if you could only keep one? I have the space for roomscale but don't really plan on using it because I don't want to re-arrange my garage/office.
If you don't plan on using the space, keep the Rift. If you can somehow re-arrange, keep the Vive. Having the Vive exclusively for stationary experiences makes no sense to me.
Turin Turambar
Member
It's cool to have a high ranking executive on Internet and teasing people... As long as you are doing great. If you are having problems and your audience is annoyed because a month delay, then suddenly the jokes aren't funny anymore and he should shut up.
That's pretty much where I've been at too. Considering 90+% of my game time would be seated then the Rift is the best choice. TY
Of course you leave out the part where that person pulled all of those quotes out of context and you also didn't include the post where a different person did the exact same thing with comments made from HTC about the Vive being wrong. The GAF threads have been relatively clean of that dumb garbage so leave it at reddit where it belongs. No need to bring it here.
Thanks to revive, I feel like I don't have to consider exclusives for either headset, because, truthfully, you can play either library on either headset for the most part now. And, to be honest, the oculus exclusives thusfar haven't been world beaters IMO, nothing there that needs to be played or even feels radically different from normal, flat-screen games. The only major drawback is that the vive doesn't use Asynchronous time warp at the moment - not because it can't, but just because the revive driver doesn't support it yet. a few oculus exclusive games lean heavily on ATW, like chronos and lucky's tale.
That leaves the decision to the actual utility of both headsets. Contrary to what someone else posted earlier, you don't need an entire room to use the vive. If you can sit down, you can stand up. And if you can stand up, you can have all the usefulness of roomscale for most games. You can also, of course, use the motion controls sitting down. The motion controls themselves are an enormous reason I'd suggest the vive over the rift right now, although Oculus Touch will significantly bridge the gap. However, given their history with poor product launches, I wouldn't really bet my house on having an oculus touch in-hand until the end of the year at best, which means I have about maybe 7 months where the vive controllers are pretty much the only game in town.
Even when touch launches, the lack of front facing camera on the rift is a huge draw back IMO. I use the camera constantly - its actually more useful in smaller environments where you might accidentally bump into something than a huge environment where you have plenty of open space. I peak where I am in the room with the vive camera constantly, it's an enormously helpful feature for me, and one I'm actually incorporating into a demo I'm working on right now.
ergonomics is an area the rift wins in, however. It's lighter and more comfortable. That said, the Vive is more comfortable than the DK2, so it's not like it's a major step backwards. The Vive has better lenses IMO; the rift's fresnel light artifacts manifest as crepuscular rays while the vive's fresnel light artifacts are feignter and less noticeable. The Vive also has an objectively better tracking system for both the headset and its motion controllers.
If you have the money, and are choosing right now, hands down I say the vive without hesitation. The proposition is simple - there is nothing the rift can do that the vive cannot, while the opposite, even when touch launches, is not true.
I find the vive can do seated experiences just as well as the rift. There is not discernible difference when using either headset seated, with the caveat that you are restricted to an xbox controller with the rift currently, where you can still use hand tracking on the vive.
Iced_Eagle
Member
I don't own a Vive but have gotten to demo one. I do own a Rift CV1. I had a Vive pre-ordered but ended up cancelling it to keep my Rift. This was my thought process.
Vive is better at handling larger play spaces than the Rift. The Rift has a limit of around 9 feet as the sensor range, so it can still handle many rooms, but the Vive can go out to like 15 feet I believe (I've seen videos of people using it in a warehouse where the sensors were like 20-30 feet apart which was awesome). The Rift can do an opposing viewpoint configuration like the Vive, however depending on room size you'll almost certainly need a USB extension cable for the sensor on the far side of the room. If you want a play space > 9 feet then the Vive is simply going to be better. The only sticking point here is that the Vive is more sensitive to environmental interference (mirrors, shiny objects, etc). It's doing a very delicate dance of shooting lasers into your room and doing calculations based on incredibly precise timing data, so it's more prone to issues than the Rift's tracking (but again, trades off sensor FOV and range). People have created apps to monitor and track wobble issues with the Vive, and in my own experience with the Vive I saw multiple headset/controller tracking issues (my controller appeared to fall onto the floor and fly off into infinity), which I speculate was caused by a mix of both a glass wall next to the play space and/or the shiny hardwood. Valve engineers have made comments that they're always working to improve the software to filter out false-positives in tracking so over time hopefully they'll minimize that, but even then if a laser hits a mirror/reflective surface and bounces back to the headset/controllers then you'll likely have issues so part of it is just by design and you'll need to be more picky where you put the Vive. In my case, environmental issues aren't a factor (bare walls with covered windows), but space is. I'd be lucky to get 9x9 in a spare room I have whereas my office is only able to do seated and standing. I might move my PC into the other room which is slightly larger, but for the next few months I'm pretty much staying seated. If I do move over there, the Rift will be able to track the entire space just fine.
I haven't done seated play in a Vive, but Oculus has a lot of polish in their software and it works well. I like how easy it is to reset your orientation/height which is super helpful if you're having people try out the Rift and you're playing Eve Valkyrie and you need the camera at the same in-game height to have the body IK work. Once nice advantage with the Vive which will come in handy for seated play is the camera. With the Rift you still need to do the peek under the headset if you put on the headset and don't know where the controller is. With Vive you can use a video feed to see out of the headset. Almost all of the Oculus games in the store are seated experiences, with a few which are standing experiences. Vive is pretty much the opposite where most are room scale
Vive obviously has motion controls day one whereas Oculus is getting them within the next 6 months (based on information that the Insomniac game is coming out in November and is not a launch title meaning it's coming before November thus the 6 month estimate). While I haven't used Touch, I do think they are going to be the more interesting controllers and a big reason why I decided to cancel the Vive. They're smaller and much more comfortable in the hands than the Vive wands according to pretty much everyone who's tried them. According to Destructoid the Touch controllers feel about the size of a wii nunchuck add-on. The Vive controllers were unexpectedly large when I used them for the first time, more akin to having something the size of a TV remote in your hand (though more comfortable than a normal remote obviously -- they were large but very well balanced). Touch is described as feeling more like an extension of your hands themselves whereas the Vive feels like you're holding an object in VR which is why in Vive games you don't have hand representations, it's generally the Vive wands themselves represented in game whereas Touch uses virtual hands. To make the virtual hands convincing, Touch has the nifty trick of having capacitive sensors in the triggers/grips/buttons which allows it to tell where your hand is roughly (it's not full tracking like Leap Motion, but in videos looks somewhat convincing, see this example from PAX East). Touch is very much a wild card though as there's no price, firm release date or launch content announced outside of a couple of titles and they haven't been fully stress tested in a home scenario but generally in 5 minute demo's by press at conventions.
The Rift is also generally the more comfortable headset. Lower weight, hardened straps but with the one exception being with glasses where the Vive has the edge due to its facial interface having glasses cut-outs. I do use my Rift with glasses and it's acceptable but the Vive fits the glasses a bit looser which I prefer. I'm very much hoping Oculus or a third-party comes out with another facial interface made for better glasses comfort (and that it works with the VR Cover I ordered). The Vive wins out in a bit larger/more round FOV but it's not massive. In addition if you have a very wide head, the hardened straps of the Rift may actually be an issue whereas the ski-style straps of the Vive would be more accommodating.
One very nice area with the Rift are the built-in headphones. Not only does it further increase the weight advantage (Rift + built-in headphones is lighter than Vive without headphones) but they sound great. It also allows them to tune their audio SDK to those specific headphones and configuration which means positional audio will be more precise. They are removable if you are an audiophile with a preferred set of headphones you want to use. In this case, the Vive is nicer because it has a headphone jack as part of the cable octopus in the back.
As for software, I think Oculus Home is much more well integrated into the headset, and more polished. Plus, the built-in system functions you access with the xbox button are awesome and it even includes a headset calibration utility which shows your IPD and makes sure you are in the sweet spot by showing you green crosses to line you up. I haven't found utilities like that in SteamVR. Oculus Home really feels like it was made from the ground-up for VR, and is a good foundation. SteamVR is a big picture window in 3D space inside a 360 degree photo which is less impressive (but I did set my photo to the star trek holdeck, so that's something). However, Oculus Home is completely barebones in terms of features. You can't even rate things on the store. Valve has had years building up Steam so it is much more mature overall as a platform (I just hope they find a better interface for SteamVR than just a floating big picture window).
In the end, the Rift works on all SteamVR titles and Valve is committed to having chaperone support with the Rift as well once Touch comes out so you can map the space. I decided that I had no problem waiting for Touch, and after seeing demo videos of people using it in some of the recently announced titles, I think it's going to be very cool to have something much more akin to hand presence. This is crystal clear to me when I go into Altspace VR to talk with people. The Vive wands are cool, but everyone is way more impressed with Leap because it actually does hand tracking which is way more interesting. Now, Leap isn't reliable enough to play many games, but Touch also doesn't do complete tracking but is capable of playing games due to it having buttons and force feedback. I just imagine Touch being in Altspace and think it's going to sit nicely between the Vive and Leap in terms of how much it adds to the experience.
As for exclusives, I think the community is going to keep ensuring Oculus exclusives are playable on the Vive. The only threat to this effort is whether a game requires the use of the finger tracking on the Touch, and likewise if a game on the Vive requires the use of the Vive touchpads, then those games will be incompatible, but I doubt that's going to happen in all honesty.
Sorry for wall of text. I know these things are expensive though, and I've gotten some serious time in VR lately!
Wrestlemania
Banned
I don't own a Vive but have gotten to demo one. I do own a Rift CV1. I had a Vive pre-ordered but ended up cancelling it to keep my Rift. This was my thought process.
...
Sorry for wall of text. I know these things are expensive though, and I've gotten some serious time in VR lately!
You've saved me having to type my thoughts - I completely agree.
The biggest factor for me is the practicality of having VR in everyday life. So far. Rift is the one I'm coming back to because even though the Vive experience is objectively better, it's a pain in the ass to set up - clearing space, turning on lighthouses, taking the controllers off charge, the inevitable power cycling when the lighthouses don't sync, starting up Steam and SteamVR before you can put the headset on. And then because there's not a whole lot out there I'm still interested in playing, it's all for about a half hour of actual game time.
With Rift, I just turn on the controller and put on the headset, everything boots up automatically and I can play Farlands to do the daily stuff or Elite for a good chunk of time. And once Touch is out, I'm hoping we get a lot of seated, forward facing experiences with motion control. I'm not doubting that that isn't nearly as immersive as full movement standing experiences, but I suspect it's going to be the sweet spot between innovation and practicality for most people.
UnrealEck
Member
What I've gathered so far, I'm still leaning towards Rift being better once Touch is out. Here's why:
Vive's plus points
Rift's plus points (including what Touch will likely turn out as)
I left out software and setup because I really have no idea at all how setup might change with Touch. Software is currently better on Rift from most of the comparisons I've seen, plus it can also use SteamVR.
I've also lately been hearing that some games on Vive are a bit jerky and might have to do with ATW, but I think that's more to do with the game than anything else. Probably Vive's own ATW system isn't properly functioning with that game.
Weighing up the above, I think I'm going to go with the Rift. It'll be a kicker being without tracking controls for months, but I'm betting once Touch is out, it'll be the better control system.
HTC tried to charge my account last night and the authorisation failed. Seems they're using a really poor payment system that doesn't even take into account the bank card's security number.
The money I save (over £200) from buying Rift instead of Vive can also go towards a flight stick and a couple of games. So that's a plus. But in the end, I'm betting both systems will be about the same cost once you include Touch for the Rift.
Vive's plus points
- Has a built-in camera
- Slightly larger FOV
- Less godray/halo effect (I've seen some say it's a pretty big difference)
- Lighthouse doesn't need USB connection
- Tracking system has a higher range
Rift's plus points (including what Touch will likely turn out as)
- Lighter headset (though I dislike the material on it)
- Easier to put on
- Lighter cables
- Tracking less susceptible to interference from reflections and is generally less prone to being lost (within range)
- Less screen door effect
- Slightly better 'sweet spot'
- Built-in removable headphones
- Better built-in microphone
- Better controllers (seem to be lighter with more features and closer representation of hands)
I left out software and setup because I really have no idea at all how setup might change with Touch. Software is currently better on Rift from most of the comparisons I've seen, plus it can also use SteamVR.
I've also lately been hearing that some games on Vive are a bit jerky and might have to do with ATW, but I think that's more to do with the game than anything else. Probably Vive's own ATW system isn't properly functioning with that game.
Weighing up the above, I think I'm going to go with the Rift. It'll be a kicker being without tracking controls for months, but I'm betting once Touch is out, it'll be the better control system.
HTC tried to charge my account last night and the authorisation failed. Seems they're using a really poor payment system that doesn't even take into account the bank card's security number.
The money I save (over £200) from buying Rift instead of Vive can also go towards a flight stick and a couple of games. So that's a plus. But in the end, I'm betting both systems will be about the same cost once you include Touch for the Rift.
Been looking around to see how cheap of a PC VR build you can do, including headset, and I've put one together at $730 all together. This includes buying the mobo, CPU, ram, and video card all used - I can currently get an i5 2500k with mobo and 8 gb of ram for $200 on ebay, and a seller on craigslist is selling an R9 290x for $150. You can grab a Razer OSVR HDK for $300, leaving $50 for a cheap PSU. There is a cheapo case at fry's that can house this for $30.
This gets you basically a headset that performs about as well as an Oculus Rift DK2 and a bare minimum PC in an ugly big case. Once the next wave of video cards drop this year, and if that chinese Pico comes true, then you should be able to build a rig and get a way better headset at about this price in about a year.
This gets you basically a headset that performs about as well as an Oculus Rift DK2 and a bare minimum PC in an ugly big case. Once the next wave of video cards drop this year, and if that chinese Pico comes true, then you should be able to build a rig and get a way better headset at about this price in about a year.
I feel like you are making 3 points out of each single point for that Rift list (e.g. the first 3 points are all just minor variations on "ergonomics").
As someone who has both, one thing that I really disagree with is tracking. It's absolutely not the case that the tracking on Rift is less prone to being lost. Not by a long shot. The Vive tracking on both HMD and the controllers is utterly solid. "Better controllers" is of course completely speculative, when we don't even know when those controllers would be released. It's probably also highly dependent on what a given experience is trying to do. The whole "sweet spot" discussion is also something people's impressions heavily disagree on (I can't say one way or the other, no issue with either one).
FWIW, if we are going down this point-by-point route, for room-scale gameplay (if it ever becomes viable in terms of tracking on the Rift) the Rift cable is simply too short.
I've used my Rift twice (for 10 minutes each) since my Vive arrived. (Used the Vive for ~40 hours total probably)
Then again, I have a dedicated VR room, so there is no set-up time.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I think people are also overselling the setup time. I've torn down and reset up my vive a good dozen times already since it's arrived, bringing it to labs or to meetings or even to other people's houses to show them. I can tear down or set up in about 10 minutes now. You really get used to it. There isn't much more than usually just moving a table aside and placing two light house beacons in corners near outlets.
At my own place, I move my Vive between two rooms primarily - a small office I have for seated experiences and doing development, and my living room where I can push a coffee table aside and have a lot of room to move around in. It's really not much work to move my vive from room to room, although I have a small ITX build PC in a tiny case for that purpose.
UnrealEck
Member
Combine the three points into one then. I wouldn't call them minor variations though. I've seen multiple people mentioning the cables being a burden on Vive because of their weight. I've seen multiple people mention how Rift slips on and off a lot easier than Vive. I felt those points were worth making.
I've seen people say Vive's tracking was more prone to being finicky or dropping (all within ranges for both sets). It might change when there's another additional tracker for Rift, but I can't see it changing for the worse.
I know controllers are speculative. Which is why at the very start of my post I but in bold writing 'when Touch is out'. My entire post was weighing up how I expect both to be once Touch is out going on comparisons of both headsets as they are now and of what we know about Touch.
As for the sweet spot, again this is based on what the majority of comparisons I've seen have mentioned when they do compare the optics/visuals in this aspect.
Tracking distance for room scale on the Rift has been tested and demonstrated to be adequate for me and for what I'd bet is going to be the majority of people. By that I mean people not intending to play in very large areas. However I did cover the tracking distance in my post, mentioning Vive's Lighthouse is factually capable of doing longer distances.
I hadn't thought about cable length, but I have read that is longer on Vive by about a metre and possibly a little more when counting the cables between the box and PC. So sure that's a plus point for Vive.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The sweet spot absolutely is better on the Rift. Initially I gave the Vive the benefit of the doubt that that fact you're moving around more means you're likely to have the headset shift and lose the sweet spot, but even in seated use with things like Virtual Desktop I find it's harder to maintain, and it's easy to spot in that because you can look at a page of text.
How much of it's down to the fitting of straps and the optics, I don't know. I know that I've done enough adjusting of the Vive strap to say that I can't find any configuration that solves it.
The sweet spot is still pretty much fine on the Vive though, it's not like the Rift is perfect and it's still something both can improve on.
How much of it's down to the fitting of straps and the optics, I don't know. I know that I've done enough adjusting of the Vive strap to say that I can't find any configuration that solves it.
The sweet spot is still pretty much fine on the Vive though, it's not like the Rift is perfect and it's still something both can improve on.
While on the subject of development, can you use the SteamVR motion controllers outside of VR mode in UE4? I'm assuming you can, would be nice to be able to test things without putting on the headset.
I think people need to be careful assuming Oculus Touch will completely bridge the gap with Vive motion controllers. I'm sure they'll be great, and likely better than vive for some use cases. But assuming Oculus stick with forward facing cameras, then games will not be able to support 360 degree movement. That might not be a huge factor, but it could be limiting for some games where you want full freedom of movement - budget cuts for example or Vanishing Realms. You'd need some kind of reorientation button or quick turn button to allow your virtual character to turn around while you still face the cameras.
I do think they'll probably be close enough for equivalent experiences most of the time - but we won't know fully until they're out. Until then I'm enjoying the value I'm getting from the vive now.
I do think they'll probably be close enough for equivalent experiences most of the time - but we won't know fully until they're out. Until then I'm enjoying the value I'm getting from the vive now.
I was under the assumption that, with the headset already having 360-degree tracking and with Touch coming with a second camera, there won't be a focus on forward-facing with Touch games. Even if the actual range of motion is smaller than Vive's suggested room scale.
Regardless, yeah, it's too soon to assume Touch will be better.
Militant17
Member
Same here, i'm actually considering selling my Rift especially since the revive injector might give me access to Rift exclusives.
Oculus is almost certainly sticking with recommending the stereo front pair configuration for the sensors, but there's nothing that forces you to place them that way (well, other than needing a USB extension cord to do opposing corners). There are advantages to the stereo front pair configuration, and there are advantages to the opposing corner config. Oculus thinks the former is the best way to go for this generation, HTC/Valve thinks the latter.
The Fantastic Contraption developer has said there's almost no difference in his game between the Vive experience and the Rift + Touch experience. The Oculus recommended config means he has to adapt his game to be able to support a front sensor pair config, so he doesn't alienate those Rift customers. Unless I'm mixing him up with someone else, he also had to create his own version of the chaperone system so his Oculus Store version of the game would have it.
I don't care about any of that, because when I get my Touch controllers I'm going to be playing Fantastic Contraption on Steam, with Valve's chaperone system, with my Rift sensors in opposing corners. Other than the lack of a front-facing camera and the shorter headset cord, I don't see any reason to think my experience will be any different than if I were playing the game on a Vive.
Valve has stated that OpenVR will support the Touch controllers when they're released. So even if Oculus pushes the front facing camera arrangement, users can still arrange their play space to support opposing cameras that minimize occlusion and play those games. Devs have said that the cameras work fine in this configuration. It is going to get rather ugly with all the cable extensions required though.
I do worry that Oculus will try to enforce front-facing during the calibration process. Despite the actual range of the sensor, my Rift was quite picky about how far away I could be. I guess this won't be an issue with SteamVR though, since that has its own calibration.
Guardian Monkey
Member
I think the whole touch program is going to be scratched and reworked from the ground up. The word is that the controllers have a hard time keeping up with fast movements. It seems like the reason the touch was not released was because they have not cracked some of the tracking issues.
Wrestlemania
Banned
That's interesting, I hadn't read anything about that. Any links?
I imagine the most annoying thing will be if we have to keep switching between the two configurations and repeatedly recalibrating. I guess it depends whether or not the front pair config really does feel like it has the advantages Oculus says it will, or if the opposing corners work well enough for games developed specifically with Touch in mind.
It'll be a moot point for me as soon as we can buy extra sensors. I plan to have two sensors stereo front and one mid-rear, so I can always have the best of both worlds.
GuitarAtomik
Member
That would be odd. They were demoing Touch at PAX East but I haven't heard any impressions from it.
Wrestlemania
Banned
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/4ffmni/quick_and_dirty_touch_gdc_version_tracking_tested/
Some recent impressions from GDC.
Some recent impressions from GDC.
Here's some Dead and Buried impressions at Destructoid. Hyperbolic title warning:
http://www.destructoid.com/dead-and...st-shooter-at-pax-east-this-year-357602.phtml
http://www.destructoid.com/dead-and...st-shooter-at-pax-east-this-year-357602.phtml
This sounds like complete BS
Touch is being actively worked on in its known form. This from last year: http://www.roadtovr.com/hands-on-oc...ngs-refinements-to-an-already-elegant-design/