-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
I read somewhere in this thread that these PC headsets would get upgraded versions every 2 years or more.
I'm getting a PSVR for sure, but damn that's all the way in October.
I was planning on getting a Vive..but I'm curious to see what is so special about Oculus' Touch....and maybe by then I'll hear more about the new GPUs coming up. THEN I can decide on a Gaming Rig.
but I was so close to pulling the trigger on the 980 ti deal and a Vive. (was going to sell my TV..lol).
but if they are going to be upgraded in a couple of years...man... na I can't miss out on these PC VR experiences and Mods. *sigh* just alittle bit longer.
Firstly I never said it is hacked together. Secondly the afterthought I was referring to was the presence of an additional "resting place" for the thumb. Not the analog sticks. That wasn't even there in the original design, hence my contention that they had to throw that in based on feedback. A well thought out controller design shouldn't require guides for the user on where they should rest their thumbs. That's the focus of my "afterthought" criticism.
It reminded me of bad door designs. If you need to put up a sign to tell users whether they should pull or push to open a door, it is a bad door design. The sign there is an afterthought.
I hope neither are used for movement or camera controls. If so, they're doing it wrong.
flyinpiranha
Member
What about a game like Lucky's Tale? Appears to be the best solution for that type of game. Or Chronos?
plagiarize
Banned
But this would be more like a designer updating the door position after initial door testing. They didn't just add the resting place. They moved the sticks and made space for it. Maybe the original design they showed off before they iterated on it was poor, but that's no judge of whether the current design is. The Vive controllers also went through iterations.
So?
But those are not really the games you need a tracked VR controller for (evidently!).
I'd prefer such a controller to focus exclusively on what makes a good device for VR interaction, in in that respect an analog stick just doesn't seem to make much sense. It's a workable abstraction for movement in traditional games, but has little utility compared to the alternatives for everything else.
They use an Xbox controller last I checked
I'd say those games are best played with a traditional controller since they don't use motion controls. And that's already being bundled in.
plagiarize
Banned
Genuine question but how is a 2D touch pad a device that makes sense for VR interaction either? You can use it as a cursor on a virtual 2D display... but I can't imagine there being enough detail on such a thing as to make it inherently better than a look cursor or using an analogue stick to navigate the menu.
I think the touch pad and thumbsticks aren't so much there for room scale as perhaps other things. In something like hover junkers, you could be moving the platform with the analogue stick as you move around it and shoot at stuff with the motion controllers.
It sounded like when it comes to motion controls, if anything people were moving towards gestures. Reaching behind you to draw a sword, that sort of thing. The trackpads and the analogue sticks presumably are there for if the developers want to add such stuff. A game where you're flying a drone, but still interacting with your local environment. I can think of all kinds of things that would be tricky with pure motion control.
I wouldn't want to use them to move myself, but using them to tank control a table top unit could be neat. Being able to gesture for some things while moving a third object around has plenty of possibility.
I'd pay so much money for a god's eye view VR Return Fire.
Except I don't agree with the concept of an "inactive" resting place for controllers. Every controller in history has been iterating on how one can get stuff done with the least amount of movement of each finger. And here we have an iteration that's going backwards to a "don't touch anything, place finger here" spot. That doesn't sound like an improvement to me. I shouldn't have to move my thumb back and forth from the resting spot for core functionality. It's not intuitive IMO
flyinpiranha
Member
Good points. But I am not sold on Touchpad being better for the majority of various control methods we will need in games.
But I guess I will just have to wait until I can try a Vive. I'm only speaking from laptops and the Steam contoller when it comes to my "eh" feelings towards them.
UnrealEck
Member
What date did you pre-order?
No. I pre-ordered like an hour ago.
It was someone on reddit who said they ordered on 19th of march or something and they're confirmed for 5th of April dispatch.
Dreamwriter
Member
But what about things that don't work as well with VR interaction, like game menus? Why hack a crappy Kinect-like solution for game settings and stuff when an analogue stick is WAY better? I can't imagine going through some of the long lists of settings some games have using motion controls.
Also, I think it adds more potential gameplay elements to have an analogue stick. Like I said before, weapon selection is good (using the analogue stick to turn a wheel of options,like some Vive games do with the touchpad). They can be used for far more than player or camera movement, in games that still want to use the motion controllers.
Within 8 minutes, but I was still worried if I'd be in the first wave. Was 8 minutes for Rift as well and I didn't make the cut.
flyinpiranha
Member
Odd. Almost any game I play, hell, most of the things I do on a daily basis aren't using all of my fingers all at once. Even my keyboard has an palm rest. Having a resting place isn't a step backward if you aren't using that function at the time. Especially if it makes it more comfortable.
That's actually one of the things I like about an analog stick over a touchpad, I can't rest my finger on the pad, it's either off or doing something.
This is actually a cool thing about the placement of the analog, you could use it as a hammer on a pistol in Red Dead Redemption 2 that will have VR support ... in my dreams.
plagiarize
Banned
If no controller has done it before, how can you say it's going backwards? You put your finger on the resting place when you don't need to use the analogue stick. Some games won't use them at all in game, like Job Simulator.
It's a really strange thing to get hung up on, imho. Somehow I play games currently where I have to move both my thumbs back and forth between analogue sticks and d-pads or buttons.
You want to leave your thumb on the stick... you just leave your thumb on the stick.
UnrealEck
Member
Touch just seems a 'touch' more ergonomic in terms of how it represents your hand. Tracking also loops around your fingers closely which might make it more accurate to your where your hand is. (though I guess they can offset it with Vive through software/games)
Touch seems to have a more natural hand pose when you grip the controller and use it to grab. It also has a trigger for the index and middle fingers.
Vive has a two-stage trigger though I think. But IMO I'd rather have the two seperate triggers like Touch uses.
The index finger trigger and top of the sticks on the Touch are also capacitive whereas I think only the trackpad on the Vive is.
But Touch isn't finished so things can change. Apparently the most recent build has better force feedback and the sticks are tilted a little better. They've also moved the top buttons a little and put in a little circle of bumps that your thumb will rest on.
Everyone I've seen comparing the two (the last version of Touch however, not the latest) have said Touch is very slightly better but it's not really something to make a big deal of.
Vyse The Legend
Member
Some HTC reps told Redditors today that second wavers would start getting theirs by the 15th. Who knows though.
I don't remember what time I ordered or know when mine will ship. I know it took some time because of the site errors so I'm probably right on the edge.
I might have to abandon the internet to avoid videos and spoilers for two weeks.
But they just moved the sticks away from my thumbs' resting position :'(
LOL.
You really need to see my steam controller configurations to understand how attached I am to this particular subject. And it feels so good to never ever lift my thumbs for any primary action! Everything else feels backwards now!
Anyway, it is a trivial complaint in the grand scheme of things. I shouldn't be so hung up on it, as you said
Yeah, as long as it's being used for supplementary actions, like analog control of objects in view or menu navigation, I guess it's ok. I really like the hammer on pistol idea. I just hope, as Durante and Krej pointed out, that it is never ever used for any kind of first person navigation or movement or legacy support.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
They ordered it just a few days ago and are confirmed for 4/5 dispatch? That makes no sense. Got a link to the reddit post? Can't find anything mentioning that on r/vive.
Navigating menus on the Kinect is easily the single worst thing I've ever had to do in a game. That being said point and click or actually navigating the menus naturally like with flipping a table, putting on a helmet to pause etc have ranged from good enough to life changing
Dreams-Visions
Member
UnrealEck
Member
I had a quick look but I really can't remember what thread it was. I thought it was on r/vive but it could be anywhere. I've been reading so much around the net about Vive and Rift over the past couple of days.
It's likely I'm just mistaken and have misread things. Perhaps they said or meant February and not March.
UnrealEck
Member
I'm sure trackpads will offer more finesse and fine articulation. The sticks will probably do fine for the majority of things like selection through menus by scrolling up, down, left or right or by using a rotation.
I think overall though a trackpad might just be better for VR.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Gotcha, I ordered around that time myself and just checked my order and it still says May. That would certainly be a pleasant surprise though!
Been anticipating this one for awhile, I've chatted with the dev a bit and they're really pushing a lot of positional 3d sources into the game, being able to hear something far in front of you before spotting it, aerial creatures that sound like they're above you. So excited to see devs use 3d sound more for VR, it adds so much to the immersion.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I'm assuming both of my headsets are going to arrive while I'm on vacation, and my personal VR revolution won't begin until late April.
(well I mean, besides playing at work... but you know...)
(well I mean, besides playing at work... but you know...)
Nightengale
Member
Reserving judgement until I actually try one myself, but in my head I always felt like a clickable 3DS circle pad would be a better implementation for a VR controller.
Flush, can function as a button if need be, and if the game demands you hold the controller differently, you're not forced to have an analog stick out concerns on holding.
Honestly I think none has landed on the ideal standard of VR controllers this gen. Each one has bits and pieces of good ideas, but it'll be the 2nd or 3rd consumer version before it's a no-brainer.
Flush, can function as a button if need be, and if the game demands you hold the controller differently, you're not forced to have an analog stick out concerns on holding.
Honestly I think none has landed on the ideal standard of VR controllers this gen. Each one has bits and pieces of good ideas, but it'll be the 2nd or 3rd consumer version before it's a no-brainer.
I agree. But I can see this will divide opinions for a long time to come. And there isn't room for both on split motion controllers :/
Anyone here know how to actually launch into Destkop Theater mode with the last Steam beta update? It says the command line is no longer needed, and there are options per-app and in the SteamVR settings to launch games in Desktop Theater, but none of them actually appear to do so when you start them.
Look at the way they are used on the steam controller. It's not that I am envisioning a method of mouse controls, its that the touchpads themselves have proven to be highly programmable, very configurable pieces of equipment. They basically can be modified in far more ways than an analog stick, making them more versatile. They are equipped to tackle a much wider array of context sensitive situations.
Just a few things the touchpads have been able to transform into on the steam controller:
-dials
-levers
-pull strings
-keyboards (like on a nokia phone)
-buttons
-mouse wheels
-mice
-d-pads
and so forth. It's not hard to imagine VR systems evolving where you move your hand towards and object, then interact with that object naturally using your thumb. A programmable haptic touchpad can become any variety of thumb-manipulable objects. Analog sticks aren't nearly as diverse.
There is nothing "kinect-like" about these motion controls, and no implimentation would be "kinect-like." Positionally tracked controllers are 3D mice. Menus work better with positionally tracked controllers than they do with mice. You just point to what you want to select, then pull the trigger. Like the wiimote, or your mouse.
you could have something like that running in less than a minute.
Well I'm caught up in the hype and have that HP machine coming my way. However I just ordered a Rift and it'll be hard to wait until July. If anyone is switching to a Vive let me know. I know the allure of flipping it will be strong though.
Or maybe I'll just get a Vive. Any idea when I'd get one if I pre-order now?
Or maybe I'll just get a Vive. Any idea when I'd get one if I pre-order now?
GuitarAtomik
Member
That's kind of limited thinking. I can think of a scenario right off the top of my head: A game where you control a character with the analog stick from a god's eye perspective and you use motion controls to manipulate the environment around them to help them progress.
Dusktildawn48
Member
May. I'm in the may shipment too. Gonna be a tough month and a half. Hopefully it ships early may.
Have you used a steam controller? What you are describing is perfectly doable with a vive controller. The point you're trying to make is that a touchpad doesn't quite make as good an analog stick as an actual, physical analog stick. I think most would agree with that, even if you use steam controller tricks like require push to active.
The argument isn't that haptic touchpads are the best control schemes for every situation, but rather that they can fit way more situations than an analog stick.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
The fact that there is vive vs rift for software/setup kind of hacks me off. Both should have access to the same software, and both should have lighthouse like trackers.
The only difference between the two should be headset and controller design.
This exclusive to oculus bullshit is some MS level Tom Fuckery...ohh wait facebook.
I cant believe Carmack is ok with it. He should have joined valve vr.
VR should be an open platform.
The only difference between the two should be headset and controller design.
This exclusive to oculus bullshit is some MS level Tom Fuckery...ohh wait facebook.
I cant believe Carmack is ok with it. He should have joined valve vr.
VR should be an open platform.
Dreams-Visions
Member
you might want to scan through youtube. there have been impressions from people that were at GDC.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Carmack wanted to work on mobile VR, don't think Valve is pursuing that.
Welcome to the club, now for the agonizing wait lol.
UnrealEck
Member
I think every comparison I've seen between all three from people who have tried all three has been:
- PSVR is most comfortable and easiest to put on. Rift is second. Vive is 'hardest'.
- I think PSVR and Rift have similar quality of SDE. Vive has the 'worst' but is by no means bad and probably isn't a big difference.
- PSVR is 'grainy' and quite low res looking compared to both Rift and Vive
- Move's control for PSVR is dated tech and is easily the worst of the three (Move, Touch and Vive's wands). Some people are saying it should have been using a proper new VR solution for controls.
- Tracking is worst on PSVR in general, followed by Rift then Vive being the best.