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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

Cartman86

Banned
Exclusive by necessity of hardware limitations (aka Vive currently being the exclusive room scale VR hardware)? Or exclusive because of an exclusivity agreement. Big difference =/

Source?

Yeah it seems exclusive in the sense of "Hey we are a skunk works team within Lucasfilm that are trying a bunch of shit and this was our project on room scale and motion controllers which was we got with the Vive someone gave us. We aren't making "products".

There are a lot of other technologies they are experimenting with as well and putting you in a different place in a ultra-realistic way that anyone will understand isn't really possible with a gamepad.
 
Yeah it seems exclusive in the sense of "Hey we are a skunk works team within Lucasfilm that are trying a bunch of shit and this was our project on room scale and motion controllers which was we got with the Vive someone gave us. We aren't making "products".

There are a lot of other technologies they are experimenting with as well and putting you in a different place in a ultra-realistic way that anyone will understand isn't really possible with a gamepad.
The Job Simulator people gave an absolutely awesome talk on creating games in VR and what you can/cannot do to create immersion. They sadly singled out lightsabers as a type of VR where lack of haptic feedback will kill immersion when it occurs (clashing lightsabers won't clash). So I really hope any Star Wars game focuses more on what VR is good at and capturing the environment, and not just rush into a novelty driven experience
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
How does it feel when playing a third person game for example? Like you're right behind someone in virtual space?

there's a strong feeling of presence. not like you're playing an adventure game, but like you were there while the adventure happened and watching it. You get closer to your character at times then you'll have ever felt playing a third-person game.
 

Zalusithix

Member
The Job Simulator people gave an absolutely awesome talk on creating games in VR and what you can/cannot do to create immersion. They sadly singled out lightsabers as a type of VR where lack of haptic feedback will kill immersion when it occurs (clashing lightsabers won't clash). So I really hope any Star Wars game focuses more on what VR is good at and capturing the environment, and not just rush into a novelty driven experience

There's a sort-of-kind-of solution to that problem with lightsabers. Set it in the period of the original trilogy where there's hardly anybody using the things, and make it so you never come across anybody else with one. Since they can basically cut through (virtually) anything else, you don't need to have the motion be stopped. So instead of sword fights, it'd be more for reflecting blaster shots and such. Of course there's still the issue of how a mere human would be able to time a feat like that without introducing a bullet time effect.

The tech should be pretty good for force powers at any rate, or magic in any game. Gesture recognition and perfect aim via pointing goes a long way on that front.
 
http://www.polygon.com/2015/3/9/8160041/jumping-flash-on-morpheus

jumpkwuve.png

OMG 0_o

I am now a devotee of Ben Kuchera.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
What some answers from everyone? Which pcvr are you getting? I have both preordered, can only get 1. Leaning towards the vive

I pre-ordered Vive. I think that motion/room tracking is adding so much for immersion in the end. I watched a lot of demos and videos of different VR games and I was amazed by so many new ways of fun this brings.
 

UnrealEck

Member
I pre-ordered Vive. I think that motion/room tracking is adding so much for immersion in the end. I watched a lot of demos and videos of different VR games and I was amazed by so many new ways of fun this brings.

Vive will offer that from day 1.
Rift will bring it later.

The thing that's keeping me from changing to Vive from Rift is pretty much down to the price. The Vive is considerably more expensive for me. I'm not sure if that extra cost justifies the controllers and extra tracking modules it comes with.

If I was made of money, I'm almost certain I'd go Vive though.
 
I pre-ordered Vive. I think that motion/room tracking is adding so much for immersion in the end. I watched a lot of demos and videos of different VR games and I was amazed by so many new ways of fun this brings.

yep, thats what im going with, just cancelled my rift preorder.
 

Arulan

Member
Vive will offer that from day 1.
Rift will bring it later.

The thing that's keeping me from changing to Vive from Rift is pretty much down to the price. The Vive is considerably more expensive for me. I'm not sure if that extra cost justifies the controllers and extra tracking modules it comes with.

If I was made of money, I'm almost certain I'd go Vive though.

You're going to have to pay an additional $100-200 for Touch, likely falling in the latter half of that range. I'm not sure what's considerable about the difference. Do you live somewhere outside the US where the prices are further apart?
 

Wallach

Member
Hi guys. Just a reminder that VR will be upon us in like 2 weeks time.

Right? This is the last month we will have to live without CV class VR. That's nuts.

Love my DK2 but I'm excited to never use it again. Just need the Touch to come out.

Decided to not go through on the Vive order. If I get another HMD this year it may be a PSVR, otherwise I'm just going to use that to fund my VR software purchases and the Touch this year.
 
Isn't star citizen getting a vr update eventually?
yes of course.

Right? This is the last month we will have to live without CV class VR. That's nuts.

Love my DK2 but I'm excited to never use it again. Just need the Touch to come out.

Decided to not go through on the Vive order. If I get another HMD this year it may be a PSVR, otherwise I'm just going to use that to fund my VR software purchases and the Touch this year.

the best part is...there are no wrong choices.
 
Hi guys. Just a reminder that VR will be upon us in like 2 weeks time.

Yeah I'm kind of in disbelief, the wait really hasn't seemed so bad. Then again I had two dks and a Gear to pad it out but still, it's been a crazy journey ever since the Oculus kickstarter days, surreal that the first PC VR CVs are within reach. I still need to buy a usb card lol.
 
Exclusive by necessity of hardware limitations (aka Vive currently being the exclusive room scale VR hardware)? Or exclusive because of an exclusivity agreement. Big difference =/

Source?

It's exclusive only because the Rift does not have a controller solution yet. That's the difference between this and the moneyhatted exclusives that other HMDs are doing.
 

taoofjord

Member
Is anyone else able to check their Vive order status on the website? When I type in my order number it says nothing was found but I did receive an invoice when I placed the order. I reached out to HTC but haven't gotten a response yet.
 
It's exclusive only because the Rift does not have a controller solution yet. That's the difference between this and the moneyhatted exclusives that other HMDs are doing.
To be fair, a lot of what Sony and Oculus are doing is funding development of games that wouldn't otherwise exist and I think that benefits vr. If Edge of Nowhere nails the third person action game it's more likely AAA devs who tend to work in that genre follow suit.

EVE may well be a money hat, but i'm not sure what else would qualify.
 

Bsigg12

Member
Is anyone else able to check their Vive order status on the website? When I type in my order number it says nothing was found but I did receive an invoice when I placed the order. I reached out to HTC but haven't gotten a response yet.

Yea, mine shows up just fine.
 
Well, not quite. Sphere tracking was used to correct drift, more so than the magnetometer. In principle, Move tracking is pretty much the same as PSVR tracking. Sensors for speed + camera for accurate position tracking/drift countermeasure.
Right, but the same characteristics that make the bulb easy to track also make it impossible to glean orientation information from it; it looks the same no matter which way it's pointing. Hence the magnetometer and trying to keep track of "down" as external reference points.


I'm still a bit confused, you haven't said why it's less affected than IR? Unless you're referring to TTP again? As long as you're using an appropriate camera sensor with sensible passband it will be far easier to localise a small subset of IR with known wavelength range than to track a visible light which can vary in colour with an ordinary camera sensor.
But Sony also know their wavelength range, and better still, they get to choose it fairly arbitrarily, which allows them to choose a color that contrasts easily with the background. (Then they lower the exposure on the camera to make the lights stand out even more.) Oculus are dealing with a fixed wavelength, and believe it or not, those LEDs aren't going to be the only source in a real-world environment. That's actually why they call it Constellation; it's picking out a known pattern of lights from amongst a fairly large assortment of random "stars."

Thinking about it, using visible light may be precisely what allows Sony to use such large, arbitrarily shaped markers. The white, rubber bulb on a Move wand has a red, green, and blue LED inside. Those shine brightly inside the bulb, causing it to glow whatever wavelength they choose, giving them a large, known target to track under a variety of conditions. I'm not sure if an IR LED can really be used to illuminate a bulb the same way, which sorta dictates the use of "pinpoint" sources. Hence, Oculus are trying to pick out the Big Dipper on a starry night, while Sony are trying to pick out the Goodyear Blimp, lit from within.


Rift doesn't have a room scale tracking solution.
Sure, but when they add the second camera, that'll put them much closer to Vive than they are now.


PSVR doesn't have any sort of physical IPD adjustment as far as we know (barring any last minute CV changes), which is probably as big an issue (bigger?) as the lower resolution panel and horsepower deficiency (in comparisons to PC VR). No one ever seems to mention it though. The BoM cost add to Rift and Vive is no doubt enormous, necessitating 2 screens to accommodate it. Certainly the quality difference must be substantial, or they wouldn't have done it.
Apparently surprisingly, it costs less to build a small screen than it does to build a large one. Yes, per square-inch. The IPD mechanism will add some cost, obviously, but even a Blu-ray drive would seem mind-bogglingly complex by comparison; this'd be like just the pop-out disc tray, minus the motor.


Thanks for posting this.

In that video you can also see what happens when the light of the move controller is occluded, it's WAY of...
It also shows that occluded tracking doesn't really get "way off" until after a decent amount of fairly violent shaking, and tracking is regained the moment the target comes back in to view. So as some of us have been saying, temporary occlusion is a relatively minor issue. Obviously, you'll want to avoid situations that promote extended periods of occlusion, but folks didn't seem to have any trouble with occluded aiming in The Deep, for example, and it's a lot easier to lose the DS4 than a wand. The headset has LEDs all around, so you'd need to occlude it fairly purposefully.
 

cheezcake

Member
I kind of doubt that - PS3's Eye could track IR lights just fine - but Move went with multicolored lights probably more for aesthetic reasons than anything else (if that ball never lit-up and in multiple colors, it would look a hell of a lot less interesting). Size of the light sources is a more relevant point.

PS Eye didn't do IR tracking though, it was pure computer vision like Kinect. Actually if you google PS Eye infrared there's a lot of modding tutorials showing you how to remove the IR blocking filter from the camera so you can use it for IR tracking on PC stuff.
 

And/reas

Neo Member
I am am devastated. I just found out my that my roughly 8 month old gaming laptop does not seem to be VR compatible. At least according to the Steam and Occulus VR Test tools.
I own a MSI GT 72 2QE Dominator Pro. I7 5700hq 2.70ghz, 16gb ram, gtx980m 8gb
(Traveling Businessman).
 

Hale-XF11

Member
Exclusive by necessity of hardware limitations (aka Vive currently being the exclusive room scale VR hardware)? Or exclusive because of an exclusivity agreement. Big difference =/

Source?

Considering that one of the main selling points for the new Star Wars game is the inclusion of room-scale game play, then yeah, definitely the former.
 
Guys, I'm super excited about VR, but why are we going back to Nintendo 64 graphics

Goofy post guy

Because we got to play games that looked as good as RIGS, DRIVECLUB VR and REZ on N64. I remember playing cartridge based games that looked that good, in 1080p at 90 fps, in 1996.
 
I am am devastated. I just found out my that my roughly 8 month old gaming laptop does not seem to be VR compatible. At least according to the Steam and Occulus VR Test tools.
I own a MSI GT 72 2QE Dominator Pro. I7 5700hq 2.70ghz, 16gb ram, gtx980m 8gb
(Traveling Businessman).
I have a friend that just got a laptop with the same gpu. I tried to tell him not to go the laptop route. He's already looking at Oculus ready pcs with 980s in (cause he has a Vive pre ordered). Some games might be okay... but yeah. Right now laptops aren't enough sadly.
 

Oppo

Member
I feel like occluded tracking for things like Move wands is also reduced by the mere fact that there's a cord hanging off the back of your head, so of course you want to minimize "spinning".
 

Enordash

Member
I am am devastated. I just found out my that my roughly 8 month old gaming laptop does not seem to be VR compatible. At least according to the Steam and Occulus VR Test tools.
I own a MSI GT 72 2QE Dominator Pro. I7 5700hq 2.70ghz, 16gb ram, gtx980m 8gb
(Traveling Businessman).

I recall hearing that no laptop will be compatible due to how they deal with graphics processing.

Edit: Sorry, it didn't rule out all laptops. Here's the quote I was thinking of: "...many discrete GPU laptops have their external video output connected to the integrated GPU and drive the external output via hardware and software mechanisms that can't support the Rift."
 
I feel like occluded tracking for things like Move wands is also reduced by the mere fact that there's a cord hanging off the back of your head, so of course you want to minimize "spinning".
And you'll probably be more tolerant to drift without being able to see where your arms are than you would be normally.

But obviously it's speculation in both directions. In a game like job simulator I know you are often grabbing stuff from behind you, but do you spend extended time looking away from your workstation? Genuine question.
 

cheezcake

Member
But Sony also know their wavelength range, and better still, they get to choose it fairly arbitrarily, which allows them to choose a color that contrasts easily with the background. (Then they lower the exposure on the camera to make the lights stand out even more.) Oculus are dealing with a fixed wavelength, and believe it or not, those LEDs aren't going to be the only source in a real-world environment. That's actually why they call it Constellation; it's picking out a known pattern of lights from amongst a fairly large assortment of random "stars."

It doesn't matter if Sony knows their wavelength. Filters are cheap physical overlays you put over the sensor, as the Move wand color can vary over most of the visible light spectrum they can only use standard IR blocking filters to eliminate unimportant light. They can't dynamically change their filter to match the current color of the light. Whereas if you're using specific IR LED's you can be certain that they will be localized to a very small band in the EM spectrum and can employ cheap filters to block almost everything except that. The LED's are absolutely not the only source of IR light in a real world environment, but there is absolutely far less IR light to contend with than visible light in most real world scenarios.

Also dude it is obviously called Constellation because it's a known pattern of multiple LED's, you know, like a real constellation is a known pattern of stars.

Thinking about it, using visible light may be precisely what allows Sony to use such large, arbitrarily shaped markers. The white, rubber bulb on a Move wand has a red, green, and blue LED inside. Those shine brightly inside the bulb, causing it to glow whatever wavelength they choose, giving them a large, known target to track under a variety of conditions. I'm not sure if an IR LED can really be used to illuminate a bulb the same way, which sorta dictates the use of "pinpoint" sources. Hence, Oculus are trying to pick out the Big Dipper on a starry night, while Sony are trying to pick out the Goodyear Blimp, lit from within.

1. You could absolutely use an IR LED to illuminate a bulb it would just look far less pretty.

2. I can't help but feel you're working backwards from the conclusion that Move tracking is better.

3. That analogy is hilariously skewed. Here is an actual image of what the DK2 camera sees using crystal cove in a quote "very bright office setting".


Big Dipper on a starry night it is not.
 

Sky Chief

Member
I am am devastated. I just found out my that my roughly 8 month old gaming laptop does not seem to be VR compatible. At least according to the Steam and Occulus VR Test tools.
I own a MSI GT 72 2QE Dominator Pro. I7 5700hq 2.70ghz, 16gb ram, gtx980m 8gb
(Traveling Businessman).

We've known for a long time that laptops would not be supported at launch
 

And/reas

Neo Member
We've known for a long time that laptops would not be supported at launch

I did not buy my laptop with VR in mind. Did not really pay attention to VR until I tried a GearVR a few weeks back. Got Interested afterwards and kind of assumed my Laptop would work. Well, bubble burst :(
 

Cartman86

Banned
I feel like occluded tracking for things like Move wands is also reduced by the mere fact that there's a cord hanging off the back of your head, so of course you want to minimize "spinning".

A lot of Vive games are about turning fully around. Not worrying about the number of rotations you've made. Fantastic Contraption, Tilt Brush, Hover Junkers etc. These games require you to move around in a full 360 to aim at people or walk around an object. You basically lose track of which way you are facing in the real world. This can cause cords to wrap around your leg, but devs are risking that. No one is going to risk it without a second camera though.
 

Mindlog

Member
Sure, but when they add the second camera, that'll put them much closer to Vive than they are now.
No one can disagree with the idea that when Oculus adds a room scale tracking solution it will have a room scale tracking solution.
Goofy post guy

Because we got to play games that looked as good as RIGS, DRIVECLUB VR and REZ on N64. I remember playing cartridge based games that looked that good, in 1080p at 90 fps, in 1996.
Gunjack alone looks pretty crazy and that plays on a phone. It's all jokes.
 
A lot of Vive games are about turning fully around. Not worrying about the number of rotations you've made. Fantastic Contraption, Tilt Brush, Hover Junkers etc. These games require you to move around in a full 360 to aim at people or walk around an object. You basically lose track of which way you are facing in the real world. This can cause cords to wrap around your leg, but devs are risking that. No one is going to risk it without a second camera though.
The Job Simulator developers talked about how it's important to interact with things behind you so it feels like a real space, while also using other game elements and design to keep you turning back to the front without doing a 360

Same way as developers design around preventing you from walking outside your space, while at the same time not making you feel boxed in. Clever use of geometry and level design without letting you realize it's happening

So the cord might be a dangle risk, but it's something designers are working around while still letting people have full rotation. And as far as I've heard it's pretty successful. The question gets brought up in just about every Vive Q&A, and there has been pretty universal agreement that the cord rarely causes an issue

I assume the same will happen with sitting VR and keeping occlusion in mind. Something we all worry about now, but game designers will find clever ways to minimize
 

tr00per

Member
Trials on Tatooine trailer is backup.
I'm as excited for this as anything honestly. Hope we get some positive reports of it from GDC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDDr6KjSpAY

Sick. Thanks for posting.

Yes... N64 level quality of visuals.

While that was pretty much a shitpost, tbf I'm pretty sure this is prerendered.



Question for those who would know, could I buy a dk2 from someone who is replacing it with a cv1 or vive and use it for steamVR or vorpx, indie games, or otherwise anything developed for the new headsets? I imagine there could be a decent market for people who want to try pc vr on a lower budget / lower spec
 

Zalusithix

Member
The Job Simulator developers talked about how it's important to interact with things behind you so it feels like a real space, while also using other game elements and design to keep you turning back to the front without doing a 360

Hover Junkers devs have talked about much the same thing here along with optimal starting direction in relation to the computer.
 

tr00per

Member
Hover Junkers devs have talked about much the same thing here along with optimal starting direction in relation to the computer.


I forgot what it was called but in an old thread there was a technique discussed where the game imperceptibly changes your direction slightly so you never run into a wall, even if you think you're going more or less straight
 
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