Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
This is not a law. Like, maybe know what you're talking about before you pretend to have a rational dialogue.
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The Hill: Trump to roll back protections for transgender students
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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This is not a law. Like, maybe know what you're talking about before you pretend to have a rational dialogue.
I think it's a touchy subject, yes. I don't know any studies, no. I think there's potential for mayhem or abuse (of the law) if it's not given thought and care.
It's not reasonable to hope for thought and care out into a nation wide law that very obviously is a sensitive issue to many people. Ok.
Crap, the bolded didn't make it into the quote, so I don't remember what I was going to say.
Accidentally deleted part of that quote, sorry. Mobile is annoying sometimes.
I'm strictly talking about schools here. I like to poke holes in things and see if they could be abused. If you're going to give rules to a bunch of teenagers, they will look for loopholes and ways to get around your rules. Will most do this? No. Will many? I doubt it.
I'm saying that the potential for abusing this is there if thought isn't put into this law. Period. It's a nation wide law, folks. Please tell me you aren't arguing AGAINST thought and care being put in to avoid any potential abuse.
For Christ sake, I feel like I'm defending myself from people on the same side of this as me... This is my last post, it seems, again in my opinion, that discussion will be drowned out by witch hunting.
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
A sensitive issue to people chasing after an invisible boogyman. The only thing that needs to happen is that transgender people get their equal rights, and everyone else treats them like real human beings.
There is no acceptable compromise.
And we are done here.
PS - Its possible to be on the same side as people but to still be ignorant. What you are doing is called "concern trolling" even if your posts are in earnest. You are coming into a thread with people who have read the literature, lived with the situation, etc, and are "just asking questions" and "worried about abuse". You are operating only on your feelings and opinions. Implying that a child has a greater chance of being molested by a trans person than a non trans person, with literally ZERO evidence, makes you just as dangerously ignorant as the other side. You MUST be able to see that.
pigeon interrupted
Member
Rapists are going to rape, why would they bother with the elaborate ruse of dressing female as opposed to some other disguise. Concerning schools: If a male student wants to get themselves expelled for sexual harassment or worse, that's up to them--as it always has been. This is not some call to arms for regular students to start molesting each other, lol. This is about the safety and rights of a minority group. The crimes you allude to have nothing to do with transgender rights.
Out of curiosity, do you know any transgender males or females irl?
Poltergust
Member
You're forming your opinion on the matter on baseless fear-mongering. If you cannot recognize that then there is no helping you.
People are going to break the rules anyways. We have a rule currently in place that boys can't go into girls bathrooms and vice-versa. Using your argument, that kind of rule is pointless because people will find "loopholes".
So if we are going to have a rule in place, we should have it so that trans people do not feel like they are being treated unfairly in the process.
...but that isn't what this guidance says. Schools just can't require medical testing or ID papers. In fact, the accompanying list of examples includes a number of ways of confirming the student's request in the appropriately titled How do schools confirm a students gender identity? section.
Since you didn't respond to my post on the second page let me post it once more:
TenCentCoast
Banned
People like you are the reason I've considered suicide.
"Oh, won't you just consider the other side! Think about the assaults! The rapes! What? No, I don't need studies and evidence to take away your rights!"
The fact that people like you have power over my life disgusts me.
Lord Frieza
Member
So many jobs returned. Hall monitors will work like they never have before
Chainsawkitten
Member
Trump's fucking scum. (As if that wasn't evident already.)
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Rolling back protections and deregulating as much as humanly possible is the plan.
RPGCrazied
Member
And Caitlyn Jenner voted for this guy. LOL
So sad.
So sad.
1) Yes boys (no idea why just boys but fuck it) could go to the bathroom of their non genetic gender regardless of whether they identify with that genre or not, but this can already happen, and the solution to that problem, is unsurprisingly the same as it is now, they would be reprimanded for such behavior, either by the educational institutions, or through their parents, so allowing people to go to the bathroom they identify with changes none of this, especially given that this isn't even a law, merely guidelines.
2) I believe there are guidelines for "And so how do you determine who's legit or not?" this specific problem, and in the case of boys its a complete non issue, because maybe boys these days are different, but when I was a child even if I had the stupid idea of pulling something like that, I am fairly confident if confronted about it I wouldn't say to my parents I identified as a girl just so I could pull that sort of stupid shit.
3) Unisex bathrooms would be a massive infrastructural change, and would require a very significant cultural change to be put it into place, and honestly its not socially viable at this time. On the other hand merely allowing people to go to the bathroom of the genre they identify with requires no infrastructural change, and no major cultural one, in fact it isn't a bad way to make people that might not have contact with transgender people to see that they are just humans as everyone else, hopefully reducing the bigotry towards transgender people.
4) For those people that would have issues with other people using a bathroom, well they can either deal with it, by accepting the existence of transgender people, they can go to another bathroom/wait, or honestly they can go fuck themselves.
this post does not read like someone who is genuinely interested in engaging on this specific topic
Gentleman Jack
Member
Caitlyn Jenner literally killed someone, so that's a moral compass that hasn't been right for a long long time.
The fundamental problem is that what some people view as a fundemental right (the ability to use the bathroom that fits your actual gender identity) as something to be negotiated depending on circumstances.
I know you're done responding, but one of the things that confuses me is the bogeyman of cis kids claiming another gender identity to sneak into the 'wrong' bathroom, because it's presented as the actual Bad End. But even that Bad End scenario is only actually a problem if the kids then behave inappropriately, and inappropriate behavior is already going to be a violation of the rules. Using the bathroom to ogle other kids and speak inappropriately about or to them would be a problem regardless of how the genders line up, and would be punishable with or without letting kids go to the bathroom they want.
Because, fundamentally, the point of the advisory re:letting kids use the bathroom they feel fits isn't about making sure all the girls are in one room, and all the boys in the other. It's a side effect, but it's not the point--the point is not making trans kids feel like freaks and not making them have to fight and jump through hoops for basic human dignity. Kids lying to swap bathrooms for whatever reason doesn't diminish the value of that, only seems worth it if people make a Big Deal out of it in the first place, and if kids lie to swap and then act inappropriately it will still be actionable. Overcomplicating things trying to prevent against hypothetical abuse does risk ostracizing the kids involved by calling them out as weird, and that's why the advisory is just a basic blanket "let kids go where they think they belong." The more convoluted we treat it, and the more restrictions we insist on imparting to making sure people are in the Morally Right Bathroom, the worse it gets.
kunonabi
Member
Honestly Jenner seems more problematic for the cause than anything else.
It's probably wrong to dip out just because some people are being rude. I'll still try to respond to those willing to discuss.
I've been referring to this as a law, and that's my mistake. I apologize. This may be semantics, however, if it has the same effect as a law.
I realize people have been awful for a long time, but again, I am only looking at this subject as it would apply to schools. Not thinking about the population.
Well, you certainly shouldn't suicide. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about when you say "people like you" however. I'm not talking about rapes, or assaults. I'm talking about a bunch of juveniles who would be allowed to go into an opposite gender bathroom, who would go in just to cause trouble. I don't have any studies on this, I don't need studies on this as I'm not making a policy on this. I do have an opinion on this and my opinion is as follows: I think that there is the possibility of abuse of this law in schools because schools have a bunch of juveniles. See, that's the hypothesis. Studies would verify or discredit this. I haven't done that, no.
1. Boys can't LAWFULLY go into girls bathrooms. Rules are in place to stop this. This would potentially provide a loophole to those rules. A boy could claim he identifies female (a lie) and then there would be no rules to prevent him.
2. Are there guidelines? Because that would make this a moot point. Does anyone know about this?
3. I agree. I think the best solution would be to let children go to the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
4. I don't think it's that easy. It's certainly easy to type, but actually to do? Who tells the kid to go fuck themselves? Like the unisex bathrooms it's going to be a social shift, and instead of telling opponents to go duck themselves, you should try rational dialog. I think a student who identifies female should use the female restroom, and I think it's completely understandable if that makes someone uncomfortable at first blush. I have to respect both those views. If it's going to work, we're going to have to get both sides talking.
Huh. Sorry about that. How's this one?
Can't check back for awhile, I'll be back later tonight. Hope this is readable. Pretty long and on mobile, sometimes I look back and it reads like a big ramble.
TenCentCoast
Banned
So, first of all: I absolutely know what I'm talking about when I say "people like you". People like you, who claim to be "just asking questions", and are "totally for rights, guys", but ultimately are just lying because you know it's bullshit. If you haven't read studies, haven't done ANY research at all, why the fuck are you even entertaining this idea unless to just fuck with trans people? You are aware of bullying, right? I know we aren't talking about rapes and assaults, but when you are telling a transgirl who passes "oh, sorry, you have a penis so you have to use the boys restroom. Good luck!" Just because you think some shitheads might try to look at girls in the restroom, you are responsible for those transgirls getting bullied or injured because of that. Period. Don't spout bullshit because "you aren't making policies". People like you are the reason these policies are able to happen in the first place. People like you are the reason we can't feel comfortable just coming out as trans.
No, we are past the point of that being respectable. You do not need to respect those views. We don't respect people who want racially segregated water fountains. I sure as shit don't have to respect you for wanting me in a male restroom.
Trump is revenge porn for the the various resentment classes.
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
There's nothing to discuss. People telling you that you're wrong and have no factual basis for any of your statements does not make them rude.
"Won't someone think of the children!!" has been a longstanding easy-in to try and pass questionable and backwards-thinking legislation for decades. The bathroom bill introduced in Carolina was struck down, and was for the general population. Trying to make it so that it only restricts students in schools gives them a wedge to divide, and legitimizes their attempts at stripping rights away from transgender people because they'd have legal precedent to try and pursue more far-reaching and damaging laws. After all, kids use the bathrooms outside of school, right?
In fairness, this tactic is not one exclusive to conservatives. The entire mess concerning music and games censorship/content labeling in the early-to-mid 90s was completely built off of the basis of defending children. Though we still see both Parental Advisory stickers on CDs and ESRB ratings on games, they're still completely ignored by both parents and places of business which sell them.
Sexual predatory practices don't suddenly stop being a thing no matter if it's heterosexual or homosexual in nature. Someone sneaking into a bathroom to harass would be grounds for punishment regardless, even if they fake being trans so they have the 'right' to be in there.
Then we're done here??
It doesn't have to be easy, but homosexual people suffered oppression for far longer than they should have. The world has been changing around people who refuse to get out of the past. That's their problem, and should not, at any point, be the problem of LGBTQ+. Them having rights doesn't magically make the rights of anyone else vanish.
Both sides don't want to talk. One wants to destroy the stability and lives of a very specific group of people, and the other side just wants to live their lives without having the hammer brought down on them because of some witch hunt that has no factual basis in reality. As we've seen from the current state of the conservative party, they have no desire to actually talk about what's at stake. They just want to oppress, and that's all there is to it.
excelsiorlef
Member
You're not a victim here.
And no one needs a devil's advocate in a discussion on if trans folk should be able to pee in peace or not.
Waddle Dee
Member
Great post all around but I think this part right here is something people like Jarsonot fail to understand. Letting people go to whichever bathroom they feel is right for them isn't some sort of "upgrade" for trans people. It isn't some sort of "privilege". This is a basic human right that they should have access to, similar to how all races should be able to use the same drinking fountain. There shouldn't even have to be a discussion here!
This isn't the first time Jarsonot has had a "discussion" about a backwards belief of his, though. Not even sure anyone could convince him.
1) This doesn't really provide a loophole since this isn't a law, this is a guideline, and as such I assume (not a lawyer, and not a resident in the USA) if the aggrieved parties felt the offense was big enough they could take it up with courts, where I would assume the "boy" would have to prove (or defend) he does in fact identify himself as a girl, how this would happen I have no idea, but I assume it is no easy task, making it even more unlikely that someone would carry through it all without admitting he was being an lying asshole.
Even if we assume this is a law, this would still not provide a loophole, since depending on how the law was setup, I would assume the same thing as before could happen, he could be taken to court to verify that he was in fact identifying as a girl.
Taking the law aside, I would be quite surprised most "boys" (if any) would subject themselves to the potential criticism of the teachers, parents and colleagues just so they could do what ever the hell they would do in the opposite genre bathroom, which realistically couldn't be much, since anything that would even come close to truly creepy would be unlawful regardless of he was transgender or not.
Another way to look at it is in the case of homosexuals (including bisexuals here too), it is possible even if highly unlikely that an homosexual boy (or girl) would use his bathroom to perv on other boys, in fact it is far more likely (even if still unlikely) that an homosexual boy would do that, than someone faking to be transgender just to do that.
Yet we do not force homosexuals to go the opposing gender bathroom, because we recognize the right of homosexuals as human beings to go to the bathrooms of their gender as anyone else does, and that the possibility of people doing this is remote, and the consequences of the few cases where this might happen are far outweighed by the violation of rights that segregating homosexuals as a whole would bring.
In the end any action of true lasting consequence (sexual assault and the likes) is unlawful, and such actions will be prosecuted to the extend the law allows it.
In short you make laws that prohibit the violation of rights and liberties of other people, you do not take away rights and liberties to prevent them from breaking said rights and liberties, this should be the case for all humans regardless of gender, race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation and so on.
2) EDITED (due to clarification from sangreal) The title IX is a guideline, the part that specifies what to do to confirm gender identity can be found here https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oese/oshs/emergingpractices.pdf under "How do schools confirm a student's gender identity?"
Basically as it is to be expected there is no real test to make absolutely sure someone is in fact identifying with the genre they say they are, much in the same way there is no tests for identifying sexual orientation, the claim is taken at face value, not only because it cannot be proven, but also because trying to do so would constitute a violation of a persons rights, and as a side note by striving for equality one makes sure that there are no advantages to claiming to be X or Y, so no real reason to do so.
But in the end it doesn't really matter if the person is telling the truth or not, for the reasons I pointed in point 1.
4) I wasn't saying that educators and parents should tell that to kids, merely that it should be imposed upon them that as members of society they need to accept the rights of other people, this isn't merely a transgender thing, this is a part of living in a society with other people, and something that is vital for any person to understand.
There are plenty of things kids (or adults) don't like yet they need to accept, the rights of transgender people should be no different. In fact we have been here before, with the rights of black people, women and homosexuals (we are still here in those cases honestly).
In the case of the USA one can say the very idea that all men are created equal and deserve equal rights is at the cornerstone of its creation (even if unfortunately the reality isn't nowhere near as rosy), from the declaration of independence which proclaimed:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
To the Gettysburg address which made similar claims in a time where the USA continued their use of slaves something which was fortunately being abolished in much of the rest of the western world:
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
So I believe it is incumbent upon any nation that values equality to strive for it, not only when it is socially acceptable, but especially if there is opposition to it, and by extension as members of such a nation it is the duty of parents and educators to impart such values into the nation youth so that they too can continue the endeavor of educating others towards a fairer world.
All around good post, but this part I would honestly avoid it in future arguments, I understand (as much as I can) where you are coming from with it, but there is a genuinely world of difference between someone being ignorant (dictionary definition of the word aka lacking knowledge), and someone committing the hate crime.
old manatee
Banned
If you work in a school with transgender students or know any transgender students or transgender people in general, you would know that NO ONE is pretending to be transgender, dealing with all that social baggage, the prejudice, the questions, the looks, the ignorance, just to sneak a peek at the opposite sex in the bathroom. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. For transgender students this isn't a game or an advantage or a trick. Its about basic human decency and respect for who they are.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Disgusting. People will die.
I've been waiting tensely for Trump's inevitable attacks on the LGBTQ+ community in the guise of religious freedoms or whateverthefuck.
There's absolutely zero reasons to not allow a person to use the bathroom of their gender.
It's not an issue unless you subscribe to fear mongering.
There's absolutely zero reasons to not allow a person to use the bathroom of their gender.
It's not an issue unless you subscribe to fear mongering.
Jenner is garbage and is one of the worst things to happen to the LBGT community.
The press rose her up as a face, when there are others far better suited
BrutishMrFish
Member
I hope that idiot who wrote that opinion piece on how Trump could be the best president for LGBTQ people in years eats shit.
If you're going to make a point while being condescending about how irrational other people are being then yes, you need to back up your opinions with facts.
Speaking of facts, there are some right over here. It was found that in the 12 states covered by the study, not one trans person harassed anyone in a bathroom. And if you want more facts, the same exact "predators are going to start raping women" scenario has been used to justify the racial segregation of bathrooms.
The ending of legal racial segregation wasn't done with any special considerations like the kind you seem to want to apply to trans people, and it turned out fine. Similarly, gay people use the same bathrooms as straight people, and that has yet to be a problem.
Your opinion remains an opinion without any solid evidence to support it.
If you're going to make a point while being condescending about how irrational other people are being then yes, you need to back up your opinions with facts.
Speaking of facts, there are some right over here. It was found that in the 12 states covered by the study, not one trans person harassed anyone in a bathroom. And if you want more facts, the same exact "predators are going to start raping women" scenario has been used to justify the racial segregation of bathrooms.
The ending of legal racial segregation wasn't done with any special considerations like the kind you seem to want to apply to trans people, and it turned out fine. Similarly, gay people use the same bathrooms as straight people, and that has yet to be a problem.
Your opinion remains an opinion without any solid evidence to support it.
Don't kid yourself. Talk to those people now and they will tell you that he still isn't a bigot.
When Trump said he could kill someone on the street and people would still vote for him he was right. The vast majority of his supporters don't care as long as he has an R next to his name.
Probably because it isn't a solution, because there is no issue.
Trans people have been using their preferred bathrooms for years and it's never been a problem.
The right sees trans people as mentality ill pedophile rapists that they need to protect their kids from.
Edit: this is a real ad that was ran here in Houston in 2015. This is how the right sees trans people.
https://youtu.be/WYpko86x6GU
Meanwhile on the left (aka how it should be everywhere):
https://youtu.be/k33n-TmM8Sw
7DollarHagane
Banned
There shouldn't have to be laws or guidance about who uses what bathroom for any reason.
If something wrong is happening or someone is being creepy then report it. Otherwise take your shit or piss and get on with it. Mind your own business.
If something wrong is happening or someone is being creepy then report it. Otherwise take your shit or piss and get on with it. Mind your own business.
there is, I don't lie
Said document: https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oese/oshs/emergingpractices.pdf
(A few examples of how schools have implemented this follow)
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Thanks for clarifying that, I did a quick google search and all I could find was the "LAUSD Policy", although the other ones are mostly the same thing, in that it is taken mostly at face value, because who would lie about such a thing (given if nothing else there is no benefit to being transgender if you are not in fact transgender), but yeah will edited my original post to include that source.
Thanks.
...and fuck anyone that voted for him, and fuck anyone that didn't vote, or wasn't 'inspired' by Clinton, or whatever other nonsense they have to say for themselves.
I'm quickly (if not already past) the 'Fuck the Boomers in general' point. On the one hand, you have kind, moral, understanding people like my father and one aunt/uncle pair, on the other hand you have all my other aunts/uncles who claim to give a shit about their descendants while simultaneously voting in this shitstain of a main.
Hey all! Finally got to my computer at home.
Well there were a LOT of replies, and I think I'm causing more harm than good here, so last comment and (this time for real!) I'll leave you all alone.
I've been trying to think of a way to phrase this so I'm best understood. I'm not entirely happy with the following explanation, but it's the best I've got so far:
I play a lot of "euro-trash" board games with fairly complicated rules. I do well at them because I find ways to "abuse" the rules to give myself advantages. I look for exceptions, loopholes, etc. I'm also a math teacher and like to critically analyze and logically think about outcomes. We work a lot with conditional statements (if this, then that). So when I see new (I don't know the right word here so I'm going with
legislation about something, my first instinct is to pick it apart - could it be abused?
Reread my posts, and you'll see that I'm all for transgender kids using the bathroom of the gender they identify as. My entire point is that if we are going to enact rules about this we need to be careful and put thought and care into the wording so the rules DON'T get abused. I'm not sure if my word of "abuse" led some to think I meant sexual abuse (I didn't), or if people are (perhaps justifiably) really touchy about this subject, but the response from some was pretty over-the-top.
Right now if a male goes into a female bathroom, that male will get in trouble. There are rules in place that cover this. When I saw the new legislation I thought AHA! this could be a loophole for some feisty kid to go into the girls room WITHOUT BREAKING ANY RULES.
Do I think many will do this? No. But it's there, and if I were making a law (I know this isn't a law) about this situation, I would try to anticipate problems and put thought and care into the law to hopefully avoid those potential problems.
Not claiming rape. Not claiming sexual abuse. Not claiming transgender kids are going to go kill young puppies. I'm claiming that the potential for abuse is there, that there may be young males who would find it funny to use this as a method to get in the girls restroom, and maybe knowing that, we could try to come up with a way to get this done and AVOID that.
Go reread my posts. I have clearly stated that I think the preferred solution would be that students use the restroom of the gender they identify as. My only concern would be: "if you're going to write a law (I realize THIS isn't a law) you should anticipate possible loopholes, and try to write the law to avoid them."
I don't see how you can argue against that, honestly. I will say you've definitely chased me out of the room. I get it, I'm not wanted here. I am sincerely sorry I even entered into this discussion. I appreciate the people offering constructive criticism. I didn't intend to "concern troll", didn't intend to attack anyone. I'm sorry "people like me" are causing suicidal thoughts in others.
This is a discussion forum, though, and I don't think some of the replies I got were very conducive to an actual discussion here.
Well there were a LOT of replies, and I think I'm causing more harm than good here, so last comment and (this time for real!) I'll leave you all alone.
I've been trying to think of a way to phrase this so I'm best understood. I'm not entirely happy with the following explanation, but it's the best I've got so far:
I play a lot of "euro-trash" board games with fairly complicated rules. I do well at them because I find ways to "abuse" the rules to give myself advantages. I look for exceptions, loopholes, etc. I'm also a math teacher and like to critically analyze and logically think about outcomes. We work a lot with conditional statements (if this, then that). So when I see new (I don't know the right word here so I'm going with
legislation about something, my first instinct is to pick it apart - could it be abused?Reread my posts, and you'll see that I'm all for transgender kids using the bathroom of the gender they identify as. My entire point is that if we are going to enact rules about this we need to be careful and put thought and care into the wording so the rules DON'T get abused. I'm not sure if my word of "abuse" led some to think I meant sexual abuse (I didn't), or if people are (perhaps justifiably) really touchy about this subject, but the response from some was pretty over-the-top.
Right now if a male goes into a female bathroom, that male will get in trouble. There are rules in place that cover this. When I saw the new legislation I thought AHA! this could be a loophole for some feisty kid to go into the girls room WITHOUT BREAKING ANY RULES.
Do I think many will do this? No. But it's there, and if I were making a law (I know this isn't a law) about this situation, I would try to anticipate problems and put thought and care into the law to hopefully avoid those potential problems.
Not claiming rape. Not claiming sexual abuse. Not claiming transgender kids are going to go kill young puppies. I'm claiming that the potential for abuse is there, that there may be young males who would find it funny to use this as a method to get in the girls restroom, and maybe knowing that, we could try to come up with a way to get this done and AVOID that.
Go reread my posts. I have clearly stated that I think the preferred solution would be that students use the restroom of the gender they identify as. My only concern would be: "if you're going to write a law (I realize THIS isn't a law) you should anticipate possible loopholes, and try to write the law to avoid them."
I don't see how you can argue against that, honestly. I will say you've definitely chased me out of the room. I get it, I'm not wanted here. I am sincerely sorry I even entered into this discussion. I appreciate the people offering constructive criticism. I didn't intend to "concern troll", didn't intend to attack anyone. I'm sorry "people like me" are causing suicidal thoughts in others.
This is a discussion forum, though, and I don't think some of the replies I got were very conducive to an actual discussion here.
Whether you intended to or not, the concerns you've put forth are pretty baseless and still amount to concern trolling. It's a boring schtick.
We can argue against it by pointing to schools where trans kids are allowed to use the bathrooms that line up with their own identities and seeing that jack shit has happened to warrant worries of abuse by boys (why is it only ever boys?)
We can argue against it by pointing to schools where trans kids are allowed to use the bathrooms that line up with their own identities and seeing that jack shit has happened to warrant worries of abuse by boys (why is it only ever boys?)
Hey all! Finally got to my computer at home.
Well there were a LOT of replies, and I think I'm causing more harm than good here, so last comment and (this time for real!) I'll leave you all alone.
I've been trying to think of a way to phrase this so I'm best understood. I'm not entirely happy with the following explanation, but it's the best I've got so far:
I play a lot of "euro-trash" board games with fairly complicated rules. I do well at them because I find ways to "abuse" the rules to give myself advantages. I look for exceptions, loopholes, etc. I'm also a math teacher and like to critically analyze and logically think about outcomes. We work a lot with conditional statements (if this, then that). So when I see new (I don't know the right word here so I'm going with
Reread my posts, and you'll see that I'm all for transgender kids using the bathroom of the gender they identify as. My entire point is that if we are going to enact rules about this we need to be careful and put thought and care into the wording so the rules DON'T get abused. I'm not sure if my word of "abuse" led some to think I meant sexual abuse (I didn't), or if people are (perhaps justifiably) really touchy about this subject, but the response from some was pretty over-the-top.
Right now if a male goes into a female bathroom, that male will get in trouble. There are rules in place that cover this. When I saw the new legislation I thought AHA! this could be a loophole for some feisty kid to go into the girls room WITHOUT BREAKING ANY RULES.
Do I think many will do this? No. But it's there, and if I were making a law (I know this isn't a law) about this situation, I would try to anticipate problems and put thought and care into the law to hopefully avoid those potential problems.
Not claiming rape. Not claiming sexual abuse. Not claiming transgender kids are going to go kill young puppies. I'm claiming that the potential for abuse is there, that there may be young males who would find it funny to use this as a method to get in the girls restroom, and maybe knowing that, we could try to come up with a way to get this done and AVOID that.
Go reread my posts. I have clearly stated that I think the preferred solution would be that students use the restroom of the gender they identify as. My only concern would be: "if you're going to write a law (I realize THIS isn't a law) you should anticipate possible loopholes, and try to write the law to avoid them."
I don't see how you can argue against that, honestly. I will say you've definitely chased me out of the room. I get it, I'm not wanted here. I am sincerely sorry I even entered into this discussion. I appreciate the people offering constructive criticism. I didn't intend to "concern troll", didn't intend to attack anyone. I'm sorry "people like me" are causing suicidal thoughts in others.
This is a discussion forum, though, and I don't think some of the replies I got were very conducive to an actual discussion here.
So you admit you are concern trolling in a long winded fashion about things that don't happen related to abusing a law that doesn't exist. Good for you.
In the mean time transgender students are once again open to discrimination and oppression of their very identity due to Trump's actions in the name of "state's rights." That's the real story, not your concern trolling.
Snowybreak
Member
Hey all! Finally got to my computer at home.
Well there were a LOT of replies, and I think I'm causing more harm than good here, so last comment and (this time for real!) I'll leave you all alone.
I've been trying to think of a way to phrase this so I'm best understood. I'm not entirely happy with the following explanation, but it's the best I've got so far:
I play a lot of "euro-trash" board games with fairly complicated rules. I do well at them because I find ways to "abuse" the rules to give myself advantages. I look for exceptions, loopholes, etc. I'm also a math teacher and like to critically analyze and logically think about outcomes. We work a lot with conditional statements (if this, then that). So when I see new (I don't know the right word here so I'm going with
Reread my posts, and you'll see that I'm all for transgender kids using the bathroom of the gender they identify as. My entire point is that if we are going to enact rules about this we need to be careful and put thought and care into the wording so the rules DON'T get abused. I'm not sure if my word of "abuse" led some to think I meant sexual abuse (I didn't), or if people are (perhaps justifiably) really touchy about this subject, but the response from some was pretty over-the-top.
Right now if a male goes into a female bathroom, that male will get in trouble. There are rules in place that cover this. When I saw the new legislation I thought AHA! this could be a loophole for some feisty kid to go into the girls room WITHOUT BREAKING ANY RULES.
Do I think many will do this? No. But it's there, and if I were making a law (I know this isn't a law) about this situation, I would try to anticipate problems and put thought and care into the law to hopefully avoid those potential problems.
Not claiming rape. Not claiming sexual abuse. Not claiming transgender kids are going to go kill young puppies. I'm claiming that the potential for abuse is there, that there may be young males who would find it funny to use this as a method to get in the girls restroom, and maybe knowing that, we could try to come up with a way to get this done and AVOID that.
Go reread my posts. I have clearly stated that I think the preferred solution would be that students use the restroom of the gender they identify as. My only concern would be: "if you're going to write a law (I realize THIS isn't a law) you should anticipate possible loopholes, and try to write the law to avoid them."
I don't see how you can argue against that, honestly. I will say you've definitely chased me out of the room. I get it, I'm not wanted here. I am sincerely sorry I even entered into this discussion. I appreciate the people offering constructive criticism. I didn't intend to "concern troll", didn't intend to attack anyone. I'm sorry "people like me" are causing suicidal thoughts in others.
This is a discussion forum, though, and I don't think some of the replies I got were very conducive to an actual discussion here.
Wanna know why you might be causing more harm than good? Because after reading literally all of your posts, you refuse to listen. You are plugging your ears and trying to convince a knowledgeable room that they are wrong and your opinions are right. You are concern trolling to try and discredit everyone else in here.
It would be nice if you would actually continue the conversation as well, you know, instead of just posting a sarcastic text dump.
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