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[DragoonKain]

This seems like a good watch.

Also what's up w/ the hate for his daughter? I'm reading it as misplaced misogyny by guys who watch Peterson for reassurance that they're not incels (he tends to attract that crowd sadly).



One of my bans when I was on there was because I asked why Islamic states tend to have higher incidences of theologically/politically induced violence and murder... You can't have a discussion on there at all.

They're mad at her for having an all meat diet and saying it helped her autoimmune disorder.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

I'm reading it as misplaced misogyny by guys who watch Peterson for reassurance that they're not incels (he tends to attract that crowd sadly).

That's because you have been brainwashed to see misogyny everywhere.

 

[QuantumZebra]

They're mad at her for having an all meat diet and saying it helped her autoimmune disorder.

That's fucking weird.

That's because you have been brainwashed to see misogyny everywhere.

Lmfao... brainwashed to see misogyny everywhere? When I see nothing but "his daughter is annoying/shitty/weird/bringing him down/thank God she's not around" and the best excuse is a meat diet... what the fuck is it then?

And yes, misogyny *is* everywhere. It kind of has been since the dawn of time, just like racism and other inherent prejudices. If misogyny didn't exist women would have always had the right to vote... what planet are you from?

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Lmfao... brainwashed to see misogyny everywhere? When I see nothing but "his daughter is annoying/shitty/weird/bringing him down/thank God she's not around" and the best excuse is a meat diet... what the fuck is it then?

Have you listened to her? I can totally see how someone thinks she's annoying, shitty or weird. You are the one jumping to misogyny.

And yes, misogyny *is* everywhere. It kind of has been since the dawn of time, just like racism and other inherent prejudices. If misogyny didn't exist women would have always had the right to vote... what planet are you from?

I understand such thoughts are tempting.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If misogyny didn't exist women would have always had the right to vote... what planet are you from?

Most people period did not have the right to vote anywhere for most of human history. Do you know... anything?

 

[Clear]

This is phenomenal. My highest recommendation. Just be warned it requires a high degree of focus to follow properly, some really dense philosophical knots get picked at here!

 

[QSD]

They're mad at her for having an all meat diet and saying it helped her autoimmune disorder.

although there's a fair share of Internet Hate (TM) reserved for her, I don't know that most are mad at her, just kind of incredulous about the whole thing. I remember Jordan talking about how sick she'd been throughout childhood so a sudden miracle cure is certainly going to raise eyebrows. The 'only meat' thing is also weird as it (regardless if coincidence or not) fits very neatly with Jordan being a promotor of traditional masculinity and opposing "soy boys".

Have you listened to her? I can totally see how someone thinks she's annoying, shitty or weird. You are the one jumping to misogyny.

Before Michaela, Jordan seemed to make more sense. When he's asked about the Benzo situation, Jordan generally alludes to a period of 21 days in which he didn't sleep (which is a feat of itself). He's attributed this insomnia to drinking apple cider several times. That seems far-fetched to me. I'm pretty sure that before Michaela's rise to celebrity Jordan would not have attributed that episode to nutrition. Stress/anxiety due to his extremely busy schedule/lifestyle pre-covid seems a far more likely culprit.

Anyway if people are upset is probably mostly due to the fact that her claims are dubious and she's managed to tarnish her dad a bit with the brush of quackery.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Most people period did not have the right to vote anywhere for most of human history. Do you know... anything?

That's a fairly insulting thing to say considering we've had pleasant conversations in the past.

And if you understood what I was saying at all you'd understand you can apply what I said to any prejudice. Sexism/racism/ageism/ableism have all been common prejudices throughout history.

So no, you don't know anything apparently, nor FreedomOfSpeech

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's a fairly insulting thing to say considering we've had pleasant conversations in the past.

And if you understood what I was saying at all you'd understand you can apply what I said to any prejudice. Sexism/racism/ageism/ableism have all been common prejudices throughout history.

So no, you don't know anything apparently, nor FreedomOfSpeech

Yeah, maybe it was a bit harsh, and if you're just saying that humanity has always been prejudiced in a wide variety of ways, then I won't disagree with that. It was just the singling out of misogyny as being the thing that prevented women from having voting rights that caught me off guard as if there was no other fathomable reason why we haven't had universal suffrage for most of history. Maybe I just misinterpreted what you meant.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Yeah, maybe it was a bit harsh, and if you're just saying that humanity has always been prejudiced in a wide variety of ways, then I won't disagree with that. It was just the singling out of misogyny as being the thing that prevented women from having voting rights that caught me off guard as if there was no other fathomable reason why we haven't had universal suffrage for most of history. Maybe I just misinterpreted what you meant.

That's not even close to what I said. I was responding to FreedomOfSpeech 's genius statement that misogyny is "seen everywhere" (aka is a figment of my imagination). Did you even read the reply chain before saying that to me?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's not even close to what I said. I was responding to FreedomOfSpeech 's genius statement that misogyny is "seen everywhere" (aka is a figment of my imagination). Did you even read the reply chain before saying that to me?

That was honestly why I made the reply. Seeing the reason for women not having voting rights to have simply been due to "misogyny," or some kind of universal hatred of women is basically seeing misogyny everywhere if you ask me. There were obviously a lot of societal reasons that led to who got voting rights and when.

Maybe I'm not getting my thoughts across clearly, but it seemed like you were arguing that the reason women didn't have the right to vote for most of history is because men just hate women, similarly to those incels who make mean comments about Mikhaila Peterson, and that came across as overly simplistic to me.

 

[QuantumZebra]

That was honestly why I made the reply. Seeing the reason for women not having voting rights to have simply been due to "misogyny," or some kind of universal hatred of women is basically seeing misogyny everywhere if you ask me. There were obviously a lot of societal reasons that led to who got voting rights and when.

Maybe I'm not getting my thoughts across clearly, but it seemed like you were arguing that the reason women didn't have the right to vote for most of history is because men just hate women, similarly to those incels who make mean comments about Mikhaila Peterson, and that came across as overly simplistic to me.

Fair enough. My misogyny comment stemmed simply from seeing hatred for a woman associated with a man that often touches on masculinity / misogyny and has traditional / conservative viewpoints. Oftentimes women who show up in those spaces are met with misogynistic commentary and views (woman invading "strong man" space).

The right to vote thing was simply in reply to freedumb's comment that I'm "brainwashed into seeing misogyny everywhere" - to which my reply is simply that misogyny, just like pretty much all prejudice, IS everywhere, and has been for pretty much ever.

It's a simplistic reply to a simple mind.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

I was responding to FreedomOfSpeech FreedomOfSpeech 's genius statement that misogyny is "seen everywhere" (aka is a figment of my imagination)

Here's my interpretation of this thread:

You are unable to conceive any explanations for the Mikhaila hate, other than 'misogyny'.
You disagree with my statements so you employ sarcasm to call me a genius.
Also you mis-attribute a quote to me.

So I don't know what you want from me, but what I want is that you just leave me out of it from now on. Be honest or just ignore me.

 

[QSD]

I'd still love to hear what you guys actually make of the Michaela 'story'... is it believable? Does it make sense? Is she helping her dad with her dietary advice or just confusing him?

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

I'd still love to hear what you guys actually make of the Michaela 'story'... is it believable? Does it make sense? Is she helping her dad with her dietary advice or just confusing him?

What is the 'story'?
Do you mean the diet stuff?

Regardging the apple cider, Mikhaila, in one of the podcasts, made a very specific statement about one particular chemical that would have been inside that drink. Dunno which podcast it was, nor what that chemical would be.

Regarding the meat diet, some people can't handle certain foods. One thing to try is elimination diets. The extreme version would be to eat *only* one thing.I suspect this is what is happening.

I don't doubt the stories, even if Jordan sometimes likes to embellish certain stories/anecdotes. We need to remember that he is trying to challenge our set ways of thinking, for example by offering alternative 'narratives'.

Figure out what works, and then do that. Would be the message, I suppose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[QSD]

What is the 'story'?
Do you mean the diet stuff?

Regardging the apple cider, Mikhaila, in one of the podcasts, made a very specific statement about one particular chemical that would have been inside that drink. Dunno which podcast it was, nor what that chemical would be.

Regarding the meat diet, some people can't handle certain foods. One thing to try is elimination diets. The extreme version would be to eat *only* one thing.I suspect this is what is happening.

I don't doubt the stories, even if Jordan sometimes likes to embellish certain stories/anecdotes. We need to remember that he is trying to challenge our set ways of thinking, for example by offering alternative 'narratives'.

Figure out what works, and then do that. Would be the message, I suppose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Was a bit busy but still wanted to respond to this. Yeah, so because I'm a psychologist by education I tend to have a bias where I'm quick to think that people will attribute symptoms of psychological distress to somatic causes, sometimes because they don't have the necessary ability to reflect on their own emotional states or sometimes because they don't want to acknowledge the psychological distress (viewed as a sign of weakness) and would rather blame a medical cause (which is more readily accepted as beyond your control).
So claims of not sleeping for 21 days because of a nutritional issue... yeah sure it might be possible, but I wouldn't call it plausible. I do think JBP shouldn't embellish his stories though. He has a right to privacy, so if he doesn't wanna talk about it fine, but embellishment kinda goes against his "tell the truth or at least don't lie" rule.





I also thought this exchange between Fry and JBP is worth discussing. In it, JBP seems to take Fry to task for writing a Dawkins-esque paragraph about god not being a very nice, ehrm, entity.
Peterson: "I'm noat putting you on the spoat" all while definitely putting Fry on the spot which made me LOL but hey, that's what youtube discussions are for, right?
Anyway Peterson says to Fry that he's making a resentful and bitter argument, and that's not a path to keep travelling , which I think most will agree is true. In the same segment, JBP and Fry agree that we aren't masters in our own psyche. Which makes me wonder why JBP would 'call out' Fry about this, because it's quite likely that he didn't ' choose' to become resentful and bitter. Moreover, I'd say that writing a dark or cynically humorous bit of prose might be a pretty effective way of dealing with feelings of bitterness. I do wonder what Peterson's ways of dealing with feelings of resentment or bitterness are, other than scolding himself for them.

BTW I did think this was one of the best discussions so far, very interesting

 

[Tams]

That's fucking weird.


Lmfao... brainwashed to see misogyny everywhere? When I see nothing but "his daughter is annoying/shitty/weird/bringing him down/thank God she's not around" and the best excuse is a meat diet... what the fuck is it then?

And yes, misogyny *is* everywhere. It kind of has been since the dawn of time, just like racism and other inherent prejudices. If misogyny didn't exist women would have always had the right to vote... what planet are you from?

There are people who are misogynistic who are attracted to Peterson (it's not like there are many places out there for them to go that aren't complete nutters, mind).

But you are making a massive leap there. His daughter is a bit weird and her meat only diet hasn't so far been proven (if anything, found to be dangerous), which she has gotten her father to go on too.

Just because criticism is of a woman doesn't mean it is misogyny. Just as criticism of a man is usually not misandry.

 

[Kenpachii]

This is phenomenal. My highest recommendation. Just be warned it requires a high degree of focus to follow properly, some really dense philosophical knots get picked at here!

It's interesting when they arrive at monarchy and christmas.

I completely agree with there stance.

Personally i come out of a country with a monarchy and frankly i find it absolutely ridicilous that its still a thing in this day of age. But at the end of the day what happens when its gone? no special days anymore. nothing to look at anymore. No leading figure anymore that is always above the mess that's the polical system even while it doesn't say much its still present and it can help to unite a country with a voice above it.

For example, when our politicans fell down the ladder and started to race bait eachother for points the population started to ignite hate more and more against eachother, the king comes forwards with a speech and talks about unity about future about what we want and it helps its a symbol its something above the political system that simple isn't always working.

The same goes for christmas, u can cancel it but then what u got then? just another weekend? now u got something to look forwards. something to meet your family again, something to prepare, buy gifts or do something and make it special. Dress up nice and talk with people u would never see otherwise.

The older i get the more i appreciate this because, tech and material possessions become less and less valuable the older i get. When i was 20 years old or even 10 i wanted more more more. but at the end of the day u realize its all worth nothing its just plastic and metal junk, what is worth is people and relationships with people and specially family on that front. And with that these events hold people together. I far rather when i am sick have my dad visit me and bring me something from a shop that he thinks is great, u remember it and u appriciate it, what does that piece of plastic do? nothing.

I noticed this myself also when i grow older, once i hitted 25, i hated going to christmas party's etc, i avoided it i stopped going, and now when i hit mid 30's tin a month or so, i miss it, i want it i almost need it.

This is also the bigger picture with religious vs non religious people ( atheisme ). A atheist try's to find reason in things that are not reasonable. christmas isn't reasonable, a king isn't reasonable yet it adds something special, as they say in the video magic. the feeling the unity etc. And that's where religion is largerly builded on. I feel a unity even u never met eachother but u still sit in the same room. It's the same with my triathlon biking, i would bike large amounts of km's a day to stay in shape, and whenever there was rain / mud / lots of wind u see other bikers and u shelter with them. I never met them before in my life, i have no clue what they think, but in that moment of time we all understand eachother, we all have the same goal we all want to be in that village infront of us and we help eachother without saying a worth. It's unity. That's what religion is for most and everything else is dressing.

This is why a religious person doesn't understand a atheist also, why would u remove the magic / remove the special days, just so u can have one more of your miserable stock days that mean nothing? whats the fun in that?


Then when i look at peterson, i see a confused person. A person that searches deeply for answers in a realm where answers aren't important, he wants to calculate and reason everything and it doesn't make sense to him which reslts in his brain going 300 miles a hour to figure out every single thing as small as a microbe in order to make sense out of it and it makes him tired and eventually burns him out. While the answer is clear as day infront of him, its a believe system and that's it. Life is't about calculations, its about a journey u do once in your life. People like peterson don't realize this and crash and burn because of this because they simple can't let go.

A good movie that went in on this feeling is. ( and no it has nothing to do with religion or science )

 

[Golgo 13]

Newest Podcast with Anthony Daniels is great. A discussion that’s completely devoid of political correctness, and thank god for that.

They talk about recurring themes witnessed in the lower class including drug/alcohol use and “serial relationships” and how they typically lead to negative outcomes for both parties. Makes sense, I think we’ve seen this played out in our lives over and over.

Interesting (and again, thankfully devoid of ideology) discussions about how marriage stabilizes society and how the “welfare state” perpetuates an endless cycle of single motherhood and criminality. It’s good to see JP returning to form, emerging from hill illness.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I haven't had a chance to listen to this one yet but I'm game for anything with Lauren Chen. Gorgeous and bright woman.

 

[strange headache]

with Lauren Chen. Gorgeous and bright woman.

• I honestly find it really really hard to defend what the West has become sometimes. Just on principle, I think right now, a crusade may be exactly what we need.

• I'm not an ethno-nationalist...but...with the dangers of, you know, population replacement, I do believe that that is still a danger even when talking about high IQ immigrants, and I do believe that, you know, if we were to just open up the United States even to large numbers of skilled immigrants from, let’s say India and China, that, you know, there would be potential danger to American culture, right?

• It sounds a lot like your problem with the interview was that Richard Spencer came across too well. That he represented his points too reasonably.

- Lauren Chen​

Nothing bright about her.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Nothing bright about her.

Never said she was perfect lol.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

 

[Bragr]

This one was amazing, they talk about how people at the bottom of society are being doomed, but not how you think. They are being doomed by the lack of morals and judgement, and how welfare is creating an eternal poor class.

 

[Chaplain]

This one was amazing, they talk about how people at the bottom of society are being doomed, but not how you think. They are being doomed by the lack of morals and judgement, and how welfare is creating an eternal poor class.

Timestamps:

[0:18] Jordan introduces this episode's guest Dr. Anthony Daniels.
[2:00] Jordan explains how he discovered Dr. Daniels work and started to agree with many of his core observations.
[5:00] Anthony Daniels talks about the beginning of the discovery of attitudes in the British "underclass"
[10:30] Examining domestic violence issues and mating in the "Underclass"
[15:30] The tendency for less monogamous societies to have difficulty with increased levels of aggression and violence with severely impacted traditional family structure.
[24:00] Debating reasons lower class are, unintentionally perhaps, leading to the destruction of the family and lives they would like to have.
[25:30] Looking at the possibility of a universal income as a negative influence on society, a welfare state.
[34:30] The issues of judgement, its fallibility but also its necessity when creating productive societal structures.
[37:00] Using the idea of existential equality with patients. Anthony tells many stories from his time consulting in prison
[50:30] The toxic cult of sentimentality, the terrible danger of infantilizing people who are expressing emotion. Trying to define genuine empathy.
[1:00:00] Is there learned helplessness in advanced western populations? Examining the success of poor immigrants to the success of poor locals in western society.
[1:06:30] Looking at serial relationships, are they the problems or a symptom of other things. Jordan outline why he believes that serial relationships only work in an extremely small special set of circumstances that can actually lead to some form of happiness
[1:13:30] Attitudes on education, teaching children to read, examining the issue of creating and imposing structure on people as a form of judging what is worthwhile and not.
[1:23:30] Jordan summarizes the current argument that Anthony Daniels is making about the British underclass up to this point. How do we pick metrics to decide if issues with lower classes are improving or decreasing? Anthony uses the story of jack the ripper to illustrate an interesting point
[1:31:30] What has been the impact of writing on the subject of the poor in Dr. Daniel's life? Are there others writing about similar topics?
[1:38:00] The similarities across countries in the poorest of the poor and the problems that pervade their subcultures
[1:45:00] What was the emotional impact on Dr. Anthony Daniels on encountering all the pain and suffering in his patients
[1:51:00] How did Daniel's conclusion transition into his clinical practice for the better?
[1:53:00] Wrapping up the show

 

[teezzy]

I'm a big fan of his daughter... for... reasons

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm a big fan of his daughter... for... reasons

How many reasons? 2?

 

[teezzy]

How many reasons? 2?

Personality and charm.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Personality and charm.

AKA: The Twins

 

[Chaplain]

"In this episode, Jordan B Peterson is joined by Richard Tremblay. Richard Tremblay is a Canadian child psychologist and Professor of Pediatrics, Psychiatry, and Psychology at the University of Montreal, where he holds the Canada Research Chair in child development. His research has focused on the development of aggressive behavior in children and the potential for early intervention programs to reduce the chances of children turning to crime in adulthood. In 2017, he received the 2017 Stockholm Prize in Criminology for his work studying delinquency in children, making him the first Canadian to receive this prize. Dr. Tremblay and Jordan discussed a variety of topics in the realm of his research with physical aggression and juvenile delinquency, what surprised him of his finding, risk factors that lead to aggressive behavior in adults, experimental interventions with mothers to decrease aggression in children, the biology of aggression, what compelled him to do this research, different forms of aggression and more." (5/27/21)

 

[DragoonKain]

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Not by any stretch of the imagination!

 

[QSD]

LOL I once listened to a podcast that had several philosophers argue for hours whether a hole is actually a thing, so ehmm, that depends on what you mean exactly by 'hole'

other than that I give this impression 7.5/10. The voice is still slightly underplayed but the hand gestures are good. There are couple of petersonisms missing though: "It's like... YES!" (with appropriate hand gesture) and "Now I'm noat saying that glazed donuts are donuts, I'm noat saying that"

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Not familiar with this lady. Seems she wrote a book about how awful North Korea is.

 

[EviLore]

Shame about her experience at Columbia GS. Humanities are in a really loony place at the Ivies right now with all the recent ideological trends.

Go STEM and read the classics in your spare time.

 

[VN1X]

Never heard of Into the WIl before. Will look it up!

 

[Erdrick]

Not familiar with this lady. Seems she wrote a book about how awful North Korea is.

This is insane to hear the hardships and horrific experiences she endured. Especially hard to not feel for her as she breaks down a few times (Or close to it) during the interview. Makes me appreciate my life further for even such simple acts as going outside for a walk or choosing what I want to wear without fear of retribution. North Korea sounds like utter hell and I hope to see the day when they can potentially reunite with the South. I've got about 40 mins left but this has been one of the most fascinating episodes I've heard from Peterson. I've only been listening to his podcast since about March, mind you.

Just a compelling episode, this. Highly recommended listening.

 

[DragoonKain]

I first heard about her story early last year. She's an amazing woman and incredibly strong. I respect people who have lived through struggles and have done well for themselves. They're more grounded and knowledgeable than most I've found. I was looking forward to this one.

One of the things I didn't know a lot about before hearing her story, although I did hear some, is how racist South Koreans are toward North Korean defectors. They're treated like second class citizens and looked down upon, from what defectors say.

 

[Chaplain]

This is insane to hear the hardships and horrific experiences she endured. Especially hard to not feel for her as she breaks down a few times (Or close to it) during the interview. Makes me appreciate my life further for even such simple acts as going outside for a walk or choosing what I want to wear without fear of retribution. North Korea sounds like utter hell and I hope to see the day when they can potentially reunite with the South. I've got about 40 mins left but this has been one of the most fascinating episodes I've heard from Peterson. I've only been listening to his podcast since about March, mind you.

Just a compelling episode, this. Highly recommended listening.

This episode will cure those feeling ungrateful about their lives.

 

[QSD]

Found this, I think it's JBP's first appearance on a panel in a long time. Haven't watched the whole thing but the cast is interesting for sure. Quick props for Curt Jaimungal who is more or less the reason for the panel, his channel is super interesting: TOE channel

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Found this, I think it's JBP's first appearance on a panel in a long time. Haven't watched the whole thing but the cast is interesting for sure. Quick props for Curt Jaimungal who is more or less the reason for the panel, his channel is super interesting: TOE channel

I see Gad Sadd in there. I tend to like his stuff. I'll give it a watch.

 

[evolvaer]

The cringiest thing i've seen in a while was gad sadd trying to get joe rogan to call him the gad father. Like dude you dont give yourself a nick name.

 

[DragoonKain]

Listening to the latest episode made me think about if one day the Kim regime collapses or North Korea is freed from the tyranny, I have no idea what the processes after that are going to look like. You're going to have an entire country of people that need to be debrainwashed.

 

[Kenpachii]

Never heard of Into the WIl before. Will look it up!

Its into the wild, dunno why that picture is cut off.

 

[QSD]

Do any of you ever listen to Bret Weinstein's Dark Horse podcast? The latest episode is pretty but I hesitate to post it here (or anywhere else on the forum) because it's covid related and could be construed as politics.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Listening to the latest episode made me think about if one day the Kim regime collapses or North Korea is freed from the tyranny, I have no idea what the processes after that are going to look like. You're going to have an entire country of people that need to be debrainwashed.

Haven't listened yet, but I think about that sometimes too.
JbP once stated that the rest of the world (or maybe just the west?) sees NK as some sort of joke.

It would be as massive problem, I suppose. The structure that is now in place would crumble, and everyone is left to their own devices I'm sure. It's gonna be a real shitshow. Must be some sort of Plato's cave for them.

 

[DragoonKain]

Haven't listened yet, but I think about that sometimes too.
JbP once stated that the rest of the world (or maybe just the west?) sees NK as some sort of joke.

It would be as massive problem, I suppose. The structure that is now in place would crumble, and everyone is left to their own devices I'm sure. It's gonna be a real shitshow. Must be some sort of Plato's cave for them.

And they couldn't be integrated into South Korea, because South Koreans don't like North Koreans. It might be an inevitably bumpy road to recovery for them, and might be unstable for a while, as they'd meet any new government presence likely as a threat and with resistance.

 

[jonnyp]

Not familiar with this lady. Seems she wrote a book about how awful North Korea is.

Yeonmi is amazing.

 

[Clear]

Noone talks seriously about North Korea because its a picture perfect illustration of what Marxism ultimately results in. Its a true discussion-ender on the subject, especially as a contrast to how the South has done.

To implement it politically you need autocracy, and autocracy breeds corruption. And corruption at the state level leads to mass suffering.

As Peterson has mentioned, one of the pivotal moments for him politically was stopping to analyse the typical counter-argument that "noone has implemented a true version of Marxism". Which may be nominally true, but the subtext as to what it says about the person making the statement is the real killer. its an extremely narcissistic assumption that they uniquely understand the problem in a way that everyone else historically has failed to, and shows a cavalier disregard for the often genocidal result of "getting it wrong".

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Noone talks seriously about North Korea because its a picture perfect illustration of what Marxism ultimately results in. Its a true discussion-ender on the subject, especially as a contrast to how the South has done.

To implement it politically you need autocracy, and autocracy breeds corruption. And corruption at the state level leads to mass suffering.

As Peterson has mentioned, one of the pivotal moments for him politically was stopping to analyse the typical counter-argument that "noone has implemented a true version of Marxism". Which may be nominally true, but the subtext as to what it says about the person making the statement is the real killer. its an extremely narcissistic assumption that they uniquely understand the problem in a way that everyone else historically has failed to, and shows a cavalier disregard for the often genocidal result of "getting it wrong".