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The Kiseki / Trails (of the Sky/Zero/Ao/Sen/Etc) Community Thread: SPOILERTAGS OR DIE

Jiraiza

Member
I'm under no allusion that the Crossbell duology will somehow be officially localised before CS3, but the idea of the games never being localised at all makes me sad. :(

A shame indeed because people won't be able to experience the wonders of Tio and Randy. On that note, if they're going to do bonding events with Tio/Randy, I hope their bonding events are combined.
 
The bad news is, Sky the third is most certainly not trending upwards, being at 14,105 ± 3,475, which is ABOUT the same as last time I brought this up. The actually-selling-well first game seems to have had a small bump, thanks to recent patches presumably, but this has yet to trickle down to its sequels. And uh, it's kind of those games we need to worry about to justify Zero and beyond.)

I remember you brought it up just after Cold Steel launched early august. It was at 14,XXX if I'm not wrong. This is depresing indeed, steam has become definitely too bloated in recent years in my opinion. I feel cases like Nier:A are exceptions. And while not directly related, I also think Ys VIII isn't going to do that well. Hope I'm wrong.
 

godisntheradio

Neo Member
I think it's the right move to put everything they got into cs3 before thinking about crossbell duology, assuming (and hoping) it's xseed who's going to localize it.
I remember it was mentioned in the cold steel announcement blog post that they were setting zero/ao aside in favour of bringing cold steel as soon as possible and looking back, it was a great move, because that's where i started playing trails a year and a half ago. After finishing cold steel 1 i bought the sky duology, then cold steel 2 and then finally the 3rd. I can picture it was like this for a lot of people.

If xseed manages to release the ps4 ports of cold steel before the english release of cs3 we'll be fiiiiiine.
 
I'm not sure there's much in question there. CS3 will by far be the priority while Zero/Ao may not get official localization at all.

I'm sure it'll be a priority but I also think it depends on development time. If for example they can't get the game out next year its entirely possible we'll end up seeing Zero next year instead to fill in the gap and wait for CS3.

I think I'm just kinda hoping they at some point already starting working on Zero already and it'll be a Cold Steel 1/2 situation where they are able to release both games in a fairly short amount of time. Of course that remains to be seen but they were able to get third out relatively quickly after SC despite the huge issues they had with getting SC out to begin with so anything is possible.

Also I have to wonder on how important Zero and Ao will end up being and if that might play some kind of role. Much of the Zero/Ao cast is in CS3 and without having seen them before it might be fairly confusing for players who never got to play the Crossbell games, I saw several people mention how jarring it was in the final parts of CS2 when...
You briefly play as Lloyd and Rixia as they had no idea who they were or what was going on.
and if the plot of the Crossbell games ends up being somewhat important if that might sway XSeed to bring over Zero and Ao first.

Just a few musing thoughts, I'm likely wrong about all of this but just where my head is at on the matter.

That said I think I've decided I want to import CS3 because otherwise I'm going to end up getting spoiled before it comes out anyway just not sure where the best place to get it from is, anyone whose importing got a recommendation?
 

Korigama

Member
Hope: Rean's bonding event endings are largely platonic, with only Alisa/Fie/Emma/Laura + Sara being viable love interests.

Woke: Rean's bonding events engulf the entire continent, and he is able to have romantic relationships with every character. Tita? Rixia? Schera? Olivier? Not even Ambassador Cochrane will be safe.
Eh, would rather (CS II spoilers)
get to kick his ass with Rixia again than ship the two of them
.
If you ignored bonding events altogether, Alisa and Towa are about the only ones with enough redolent scenes to fuel the ship.
Hm, I don't see it quite as much without the bonding events for Towa. Falcom's bias toward Alisa specifically, however, is quite apparent. And accounting for the bonding events, particularly in CS II, tips things toward her far more than everyone else.
I'm not sure there's much in question there. CS3 will by far be the priority while Zero/Ao may not get official localization at all.
Zero and Ao will likely be officially localized eventually, but CS III would have to be given first priority if XSeed don't want another Ys VIII or Tokyo Xanadu situation of Falcom picking other companies to do it.
 

Thud

Member
I remember you brought it up just after Cold Steel launched early august. It was at 14,XXX if I'm not wrong. This is depresing indeed, steam has become definitely too bloated in recent years in my opinion. I feel cases like Nier:A are exceptions. And while not directly related, I also think Ys VIII isn't going to do that well. Hope I'm wrong.

It's the price.
 

Mivey

Member
Yes, but asking $29.99 for a 50+ hours long JRPG (or at least it was that before turbo mode was added) seems right in my opinion. I mean, I wouldn't ask less for Zero and Ao if Xseed release them in a hypothetical future.

What does it matter if it "seems right" if it makes no money? A 20$ launch price it would have likely generated so much more sales, to make up for the 33% reduction in unit price.
Trails biggest issue is visibility, if they can't even go past 50K. These are good games, and there is totally an audience, XSeed just doesn't manage to connect the two. Pricing is one of the things in their power.
 
What does it matter if it "seems right" if it makes no money? A 20$ launch price it would have likely generated so much more sales, to make up for the 33% reduction in unit price.
Trails biggest issue is visibility, if they can't even go past 50K. These are good games, and there is totally an audience, XSeed just doesn't manage to connect the two. Pricing is one of the things in their power.
a $20 price on a port that was actually properly invested in doesn't seem very feasible. Expecting a magic tripling of sales based on a 33% price reduction isn't reliable. They are better off pricing where they know they can make the money back, and then putting on sales later.
 
What does it matter if it "seems right" if it makes no money? A 20$ launch price it would have likely generated so much more sales, to make up for the 33% reduction in unit price.
Trails biggest issue is visibility, if they can't even go past 50K. These are good games, and there is totally an audience, XSeed just doesn't manage to connect the two. Pricing is one of the things in their power.

True, my point is, I don't think that even if they had a 20$ launch price 3rd would have sold much better. As you have said and we all know, Trails games don't have visibility in a bloated market. 3rd has an even bigger problem for being the end of a trilogy. Xseed probably had a hard time with the pricing. At the end we don't know if the 30$ has proven beneficial for them or if they should have lowered the price.

Edit: I'm scared to think what type of numbers Zero and Ao could move, seeing Cold Steel numbers and being it the start of a new arc. They would need a big investment from Xseed part.
 
a $20 price on a port that was actually properly invested in doesn't seem very feasible. Expecting a magic tripling of sales based on a 33% price reduction isn't reliable. They are better off pricing where they know they can make the money back, and then putting on sales later.

But how can they make money back if they can't get sales because the price is to high? It also doesn't help that its the third game in the series which makes it less likely to keep selling at such a high price. Not when you compare how outdated it looks next to CS which is only 10$ more. Also people were complaining CS was too expensive at 40$ for being a port of a year old game despite a ton of new features and extra voice acting, and again third is only 10$ cheaper.

We all love these games and I bought all 3 at full price but if I'm being honest the price point is easily the hardest thing about getting into this series. FC might be 20$ now but SC is still 30$ nearly 2 years after its release. Sure they do go on sale but if you want to jump into the Sky trilogy it can be quite daunting to see how expensive they are, even if they are worth it to some of us to others they really aren't.


So I'd suggest the following...
Put FC at 10$
Put SC at 20$
Put Third at 25$
Put a trilogy bundle up for 40$-50$

See what happens.

You need FC to be cheaper to start with because you want to grab people and get them interested in buying all of the games and the best way to do that is to make the first game really cheap. Hell I actually think it should be lower then that at around 8$ but either way the point of making FC cheap is to draw people in. SC just shouldn't still be 30$ even if it is the best game of the trilogy because its just old at this point, so many games look infinitely better then these three games and they cost a fraction of the price and yes while the story and characters are what matter for these games when you load up a steam page for any of these games you don't get to really see the story, no you see a series of games that looks extremely outdated for how much they are asking for to buy in. Thats another reason you make FC cheap, to get people interested and give the series a shot.

Edit: On the whole making FC cheap thing, I'd really be curious what would happen if FC just flat out became free. Would it being free get a lot more people into the series and potentially make SC and 3rd sell a lot better?
 
As long as players still have to beat SC before really plunking down on 3rd (which has the reputation of being less essential than FC and SC). 3rd's numbers via SteamSpy will stay in this range. A bunch of people might have bought the games from GOG and Humble, too. We don't have the best sales information to begin with.

I'm not worried about people being too confused when playing CS III and meeting Crossbell characters/events, maybe for the first time. Falcom knows it's got its own new fans who haven't played Zero/Ao yet, so the Erebonia characters will still properly ask for more info.
 

Mivey

Member
a $20 price on a port that was actually properly invested in doesn't seem very feasible. Expecting a magic tripling of sales based on a 33% price reduction isn't reliable. They are better off pricing where they know they can make the money back, and then putting on sales later.
I don't disagree, I was just sketching one way of looking at it and unfortunately even sales help you less when there are a dozen other JRPGs doing them too. It's kind of a "damned if you, damned if you don't"

Well, going forward, it looks like the newer Trails games (CSIII and the new arc) will likely come to the West anyway (for consoles, primarily) So the cost to get them to Steam is also going to drop (no need to translate a million characters, just for the Steam port). Of course, this means the Zero and Ao games are essentially left behind, only really hardcore fans would ever look for a fan translation.
 
But how can they make money back if they can't get sales because the price is to high? It also doesn't help that its the third game in the series which makes it less likely to keep selling at such a high price. Not when you compare how outdated it looks next to CS which is only 10$ more. Also people were complaining CS was too expensive at 40$ for being a port of a year old game despite a ton of new features and extra voice acting, and again third is only 10$ cheaper.
I just realized we are talking about 3rd not cold steel. I read into the conversation wrong. My statement was wholey on CSs price which I even remembered incorrectly.

Speaking on 3rd, pricing that was probably a lot easier. Its pretty easy to get an estimated sales count on a game that's only potential audience is people who completed SC. Damn I'd kill to have that easy of an ROI to calculate for when budgeting.

I don't disagree, I was just sketching one way of looking at it and unfortunately even sales help you less when there are a dozen other JRPGs doing them too. It's kind of a "damned if you, damned if you don't"

Well, going forward, it looks like the newer Trails games (CSIII and the new arc) will likely come to the West anyway (for consoles, primarily) So the cost to get them to Steam is also going to drop (no need to translate a million characters, just for the Steam port). Of course, this means the Zero and Ao games are essentially left behind, only really hardcore fans would ever look for a fan translation.
and games that are out on PS4 will be much easier to port to PC. Only ones that will be worrying are any potential switch exclusives getting PC ports in the west.
 
We all love these games and I bought all 3 at full price but if I'm being honest the price point is easily the hardest thing about getting into this series. FC might be 20$ now but SC is still 30$ nearly 2 years after its release. Sure they do go on sale but if you want to jump into the Sky trilogy it can be quite daunting to see how expensive they are, even if they are worth it to some of us to others they really aren't.


So I'd suggest the following...
Put FC at 10$
Put SC at 20$
Put Third at 25$
Put a trilogy bundle up for 40$-50$

I definitely agree that almost two years after, SC's price should be lower, the same with FC. And the fact that they hadn't put a bundle yet surprises me.
 

ResourcefulStar

Neo Member
Looking back, XSEED botched the marketing campaign for the PC version of ToCS pretty badly.

It consisted of:
1. An initial press release and a video of a newly voiced cutscene that did not provide any context for people who weren't already familiar with the game.
2. Durante's blog posts that detailed the technical improvements over the older versions.
3. A largely uninformative launch trailer. Mostly a montage of review scores and S-Craft animations.

The pre-release materials focused almost exclusively on what was different from the console version. No real effort was made to introduce the PC RPG audience to the game that many PC players had never even heard of before because they have no reason to follow console-exclusive JRPGs.

What we should have gotten:
1. A story trailer that focuses on Erebonia as a whole, introduces Osborne, his reforms, and the conflict between the nobles and the commoners, as well as covers various cities that Class VII visits over the course of the game and their role in the country's economy. World building is supposed to be the number one selling point of this series, so show off the world.
2. A series of trailers that introduce the members of Class VII and cover both their personalities and Craft sets.
3. At least one gameplay trailer that extensively covers the combat and orbment systems. Show different party setups take on the same challenge. Demonstrate the same character perform radically different combat roles depending on their quartz selection. The CRPG community likes build variety, so show them build variety: Elliot who disables large numbers of enemies with Juggler-empowered Nocturne Bell and Elliot who keeps everybody alive with Canon, Alisa who casts Space Arts at a silly rate with the help of Angel and Alisa who's really good at setting single targets on fire using Flamberge and Vermillion. There's quite a bit more to the game's combat system than watching cute girls do half-minute long super moves, but you won't know it from the launch trailer.

Basically, XSEED should have treated it like a new release instead of a re-release because it is a new release as far as significant parts of the potential audience are concerned.
 

Ascheroth

Member
But how can they make money back if they can't get sales because the price is to high? It also doesn't help that its the third game in the series which makes it less likely to keep selling at such a high price. Not when you compare how outdated it looks next to CS which is only 10$ more. Also people were complaining CS was too expensive at 40$ for being a port of a year old game despite a ton of new features and extra voice acting, and again third is only 10$ cheaper.

We all love these games and I bought all 3 at full price but if I'm being honest the price point is easily the hardest thing about getting into this series. FC might be 20$ now but SC is still 30$ nearly 2 years after its release. Sure they do go on sale but if you want to jump into the Sky trilogy it can be quite daunting to see how expensive they are, even if they are worth it to some of us to others they really aren't.


So I'd suggest the following...
Put FC at 10$
Put SC at 20$
Put Third at 25$
Put a trilogy bundle up for 40$-50$

See what happens.

You need FC to be cheaper to start with because you want to grab people and get them interested in buying all of the games and the best way to do that is to make the first game really cheap. Hell I actually think it should be lower then that at around 8$ but either way the point of making FC cheap is to draw people in. SC just shouldn't still be 30$ even if it is the best game of the trilogy because its just old at this point, so many games look infinitely better then these three games and they cost a fraction of the price and yes while the story and characters are what matter for these games when you load up a steam page for any of these games you don't get to really see the story, no you see a series of games that looks extremely outdated for how much they are asking for to buy in. Thats another reason you make FC cheap, to get people interested and give the series a shot.
That's basically their usual price during sales (FC is literally 8$ during a sale).
Minus the bundle, and I agree about that. I've been arguing since SC that not bundling them is definitely costing them sales and visibility.
3rds problem isn't the price, it's that you have to beat 2 games that are a 100-150 hours of playtime together.
 

Loz246789

Member
People have been raising GOG and humble bundle as a potential source of extra sales, but whilst I'm sure the sales there aren't non-existent (otherwise they wouldn't bother), I highly doubt they'll be any more than a couple thousand for third. Steam IS the mainstream PC market and as such will be where most copies are bought, outside of a freak overlapping of fanbases between niche JRPGs and alternate storefronts.

EDIT: In terms of price vs getting people to actually play the games, I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B. The games now have turbo modes. Great. But do people really know that this exists? Let's take an extreme example.

You're an average steam user who bought FC whilst on sale a year ago or something. You either never played it, or played a little then got distracted by other games. You never got the achievement for beating the prologue, just like 62% of the game's audience. Would you keep the game installed? Would you have it installed to begin with? Possibly not. And if that's the case, you may never notice that the game's been updated with a turbo mode. Or if you did notice, would you look into just what that is? I won't say that the name doesn't describe it very well, but the average consumer may think that it's a new mode entirely, or something. And even then, a turbo mode is only a selling point to someone who's already playing the game, realistically. You'd still need them to get back into the game, for them to realise what a great feature turbo mode is. Otherwise it's a case of "Well I played 30 minutes of this game, but never went back to it, it can't have been *that* spectacular. I doubt a turbo mode could fix whatever problems I had with the game".

But then of course, the upside of this sort of consumer is that they blindly bought FC without considering if the game was for them. They could very easily do the same for the rest of the series without finishing it, promising themselves that they'll get around to the series some day. But for that, they need to see the games, and for whatever reason be tempted. Maybe it's a low base price, maybe it's a low price as a result of a sale, maybe the sale percentage is just *so* outrageous that the price doesn't matter, maybe there's a trilogy pack that offers them a discount thanks to owning FC, I dunno. The amount of people actually playing the third could be close to zero, but if xseed sold 100,000 copies at a decent price, I doubt they'd care financially. The problem is just what the consider a decent price. (A $10 game needs to sell 3 times the copies of a $30 one, after all.)
 

Squire

Banned
Perception matters in pricing, too. If you just set at FC at $10, you invite the perception that it was developed with that price point in mind, which is absolutely not the case.

This is why a lot of indie devs started pricing their games at $15-20, up from the usual $10-12 of last console gen. An element of consumers read that as the game having some effort put in and some meat on it's bones, and that's especially useful on a platform like Steam that has not just the typical wheat/chuff of bad games for cheap, but literal asset-flip garbage.

FC is a very good game for $20. Maybe the same at $15, I admit. $10, I think, would invite the assumption it's another nostalgia cash-grab JRPG built in GameMaker, which is neither true nor is it what the game deserves. And that's just FC, but I don't really agree about the others either. SC is probably the best $30 I've spent on a game in many years and it wasn't even the PC port.

I think the best thing to do is to try and balance competitive pricing with asking for what you honestly think the game is worth. People don't get into something because it's cheap because culturally (at least in the states) "cheap = probably not very good".
 

Jolkien

Member
Ao no Kiseki fragment:
Holy shit Wazy was the ninth dominion all along, It's clear he knew more than he let on but I did not see that coming.
 

preta

Member
Ao no Kiseki fragment:
Holy shit Wazy was the ninth dominion all along, It's clear he knew more than he let on but I did not see that coming.

I love how this is foreshadowed
even in the Intermission, when he refuses to take off his top.
 

Loz246789

Member
Perception matters in pricing, too. If you just set at FC at $10, you invite the perception that it was developed with that price point in mind, which is absolutely not the case.

This is why a lot of indie devs started pricing their games at $15-20, up from the usual $10-12 of last console gen. An element of consumers read that as the game having some effort put in and some meat on it's bones, and that's especially useful on a platform like Steam that has not just the typical wheat/chuff of bad games for cheap, but literal asset-flip garbage.

FC is a very good game for $20. Maybe the same at $15, I admit. $10, I think, would invite the assumption it's another nostalgia cash-grab JRPG built in GameMaker, which is neither true nor is it what the game deserves. And that's just FC, but I don't really agree about the others either. SC is probably the best $30 I've spent on a game in many years and it wasn't even the PC port.

I think the best thing to do is to try and balance competitive pricing with asking for what you honestly think the game is worth. People don't get into something because it's cheap because culturally (at least in the states) "cheap = probably not very good".

In the UK (where I live), FC is priced at £12.99. Outside of sales, I definitely wouldn't price it any lower. Delving into single digit territory seems like it would change the perception of the game, and £12.99 is "impulse buy of an actually good game" territory.

Fortunately, we know FC is selling fine, so I doubt that that game needs a price drop, at least.
 

Burning Justice

the superior princess
Not sure why people are acting as if SC sold badly. I'm pretty sure 50K is a great number by the standards of a company like XSEED. Yes, SC didn't sell anywhere near as well as FC did, but the bar FC set is really high (it wouldn't surprise me if FC is the highest-selling game XSEED has ever released at this point). And I'm pretty sure that if SC didn't sell well enough for them, they would never have released 3rd.

As for 3rd and Cold Steel, I would wait until they start getting deeper discounts before writing them off. PC games tend to have much longer legs than console games, and 3rd's sales now are in line with what SC's sales were at the same point in its life.
 

Nabae

Unconfirmed Member
Not sure why people are acting as if SC sold badly. I'm pretty sure 50K is a great number by the standards of a company like XSEED. Yes, SC didn't sell anywhere near as well as FC did, but the bar FC set is really high (it wouldn't surprise me if FC is the highest-selling game XSEED has ever released at this point). And I'm pretty sure that if SC didn't sell well enough for them, they would never have released 3rd.
I believe Tom or Brittany said they started working on the 3rd very shortly after SC's release, meaning they weren't waiting for SC to sell well enough to justify it.
 

Loz246789

Member
Not sure why people are acting as if SC sold badly. I'm pretty sure 50K is a great number by the standards of a company like XSEED. Yes, SC didn't sell anywhere near as well as FC did, but the bar FC set is really high (it wouldn't surprise me if FC is the highest-selling game XSEED has ever released at this point). And I'm pretty sure that if SC didn't sell well enough for them, they would never have released 3rd.

As for 3rd and Cold Steel, I would wait until they start getting deeper discounts before writing them off. PC games tend to have much longer legs than console games, and 3rd's sales now are in line with what SC's sales were at the same point in its life.

To bring in some optimism here, I'm actually pretty confident about ToCS PC outside of the ps4 version being some dramatic upgrade. It's sold (optimistically) 20,000 in a month, I'm sure it will do well long term. If it's not at 100,000 after ToCS 2 releasing and a couple of decent sales, I'll be very surprised.

I guess you could say I'd be... eating Crow? Eh?
 

Korigama

Member
Not sure why people are acting as if SC sold badly. I'm pretty sure 50K is a great number by the standards of a company like XSEED. Yes, SC didn't sell anywhere near as well as FC did, but the bar FC set is really high (it wouldn't surprise me if FC is the highest-selling game XSEED has ever released at this point). And I'm pretty sure that if SC didn't sell well enough for them, they would never have released 3rd.

As for 3rd and Cold Steel, I would wait until they start getting deeper discounts before writing them off. PC games tend to have much longer legs than console games, and 3rd's sales now are in line with what SC's sales were at the same point in its life.
I wouldn't know how the PC FC's sales compare with those for The Last Story, which was the most successful game for them when they published that.
 
Not enough attention is drawn to the fact that Rean is horny for Alisa

And for most of the girls for that matter. It's a refreshing bit of honesty that contrasts with the usual LN-style "Huh?! I'm just friends with these girls, lol don't be weird!!"
I actually appreciated his honesty too, at least with himself. That "I'm now noticing these things but I need to try and not creep". Emma, Alisa, Edel, and Rosine he comments to himself about. The emma one making one of the funniest reanquests
 

Jiraiza

Member
Mother of god, the ending to Ao, chapter 4. That explains the entire deal with the crater at Garrelia Fortress. Turns out it was the
work of gundams
!
 

Kalor

Member
That battle theme is okay but I'm not sure if it's good as the main one. I guess we'll see how it works in context soon. Could just be for special fights.
 

Jiraiza

Member
Ao, Fragment (Intermission Part 2?):

Kevin and Ries are back! And the reveal that Wazy and Abbas are part of the Grailsritter. And yet another reveal that Zeit is one of the ancient beasts just like Ragnard from Sky!

As an aside, I really enjoy Kevin and Ries's role in all of this. Because you get familiar with them in SC and the Third, you know for sure they'll be your reliable allies when the going gets tough,
Kevin especially since he pretty much had a huge burden taken off his shoulders after making peace with his problems rrgarding Rufina in the Shadow Country. God, I love the Sky characters.

Phew, that's enough excitement for the night. Playing through Ao really is really getting me eager to play CS1 again just to see all the event overlaps in the timeline. All these "ah ha" moments are great. Extra points for the story being written as a melting pot of happenings which fits thematically with Crossbell's poliical and geographical position in the universe.

Honestly not sold on Lloyd, but the world lore and story development really are engaging. Bravo indeed, Falcom. Now to hopefully finish the game this weekend so I can take a nice 2 week break from Trails before CS3.
 

sbs2601

Neo Member
Ao, Fragment (Intermission Part 2?):

Honestly not sold on Lloyd, but the world lore and story development really are engaging. Bravo indeed, Falcom. Now to hopefully finish the game this weekend so I can take a nice 2 week break from Trails before CS3.
Lol you still have like a third of the game to play. Don't burn yourself out.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Re: the CS3 footage

Hopeful that
Tio leading Class VII is a clue to how CS3 might be structured. I've been crossing my fingers that the story cast a wide net and jump around different groups around Erebonia instead of it all just being about Rean and it's starting to look likelier. I don't count myself among the people who don't like him, but the potential for CS3's story and how much it could do for the cast of it without it all being contextualized through Rean is crazy high.

Also in my extremely biased viewpoint, taking this as more credence to the thought that Juna will be the game's deuteragonist. I'm prepared to be disappointed, at this point I'd actually bet on Juna getting to take the lead without anyone overshadowing her for a good portion of the game.
 

Jiraiza

Member
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