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[Represent.]

Literally lost all credibility with this one statement. The pacing is god awful, and even the most ardent of TLOU2 defenders admit that.

I am the most ardent TLOU 2 defender, I dont admit it. Pacing was good. I liked the switch to Abby. I liked the whole trip to Santa Barbra. Arguably the best part of the game.

That guy lost any credibility when he listed gore in a zombie apocalypse game as a negative

 

[laynelane]

Pacing was amazing. Just because its not linear doesnt mean its bad.

Chracters die in movies and games. This is not a valid criticism. Nt even close to one.

Misery porn????? Have you not watched any other violent media? Hostel, SAW, whatever game from the studio that makes HATRED (The Steam game) thats misery porn. If you cant spot the difference between that and The Last of Us - Its a you problem.

The game is dark and bleak for a REASON. Its not misery porn. What is it with this soft take?

To you. It does for me.

Again - To you. I was giving it a fucking standing ovation as the credits rolled.

Ellie lost everything and left the house she helped build. Very realistic. This is not a Disney story with some made up happy ending.

Such as?

Such as?


Literally not one good argument.

Can't believe you listed gore in a ZOMBIE APOCOLYPSE game as a negative. Lol... Lmfao even. What? Did you want them to shed sparkles when they got hit like some Nintendo game?

I just watched 28 Years Later and it was gory as FUCK, anyone saying oh the gore made it a shitty movie would be laughed out of the room. Same thing here.

Come on bro.

I'm listing complaints/criticism that others have relayed here and elsewhere. You should go argue with the people who said them about why their opinions are wrong. I have no interest in arguing with you over opinions I never stated I had. Also, amazing reading comprehension.

 

[Nvz1]

I just finished playing through Part II a couple of weeks ago now that it's finally on PC and I had a great time with it. I was very hesitant to even play it considering the outpouring of hatred towards it, but it was all mostly unfounded in my opinion. The production values alone are something I've not seen done as well in any other game I can think of. The gore system in the game is incredibly satisfying and makes every encounter feel brutal and impactful. I, admittedly, did not like the character design for Abby as it just seemed a bit too unrealistic, but I'm not foaming at the mouth about it. Initially I was a bit disappointed with the ending, but after sitting on it for a while, I understood the intended impact and am overall happy with it. Ever since I finished it, I've been trying to find something that could capture my attention as thoroughly as Part II did and I'm still coming up short. Haters gon' hate.

 

[Topher]

Literally lost all credibility with this one statement. The pacing is god awful, and even the most ardent of TLOU2 defenders admit that.

No I don't think opinion on pacing is as one-sided as you suggest. Personally, I thought it was fine. Think it just comes down to whether one likes the story or not. Either way, it is highly subjective.

 

[DrFigs]

Literally lost all credibility with this one statement. The pacing is god awful, and even the most ardent of TLOU2 defenders admit that.

The pacing was great for the majority of the game. It falters a bit towards the end, after a fake out ending with Ellie and Dina living life on a farm. It was a bit convoluted to have Ellie do a whole trek through the west to track down Abby a second time. But even then, the extension of the story past that point had a great payoff. The actual final showdown between Ellie and Abby and everything that happens afterwards is so vital to the story, that I think the pacing problems are minor in comparison.

Idk what other people mean when they say it has pacing problems - if they mean something else by it. But I think it has great pacing, except towards the end of the game and to call it god awful is way overblown. It also is a weird thing w/ TLOU where people are hypercritical about its pacing problems, but a game like GTA or Red Dead will be 99% bloat and people find no issues there; not to mention the many games that don't even try to tell a decent story.

 

[Catphish]

That hotel level was some of the best fucking gaming I've ever experienced. I can't think of anything else that had me so utterly terrified going through it, and so thoroughly relieved when it was over.

That said, however, by the time I finished the game, I felt like I'd had my ass kicked. I was so thoroughly and completely exhausted by the time it was done, I honestly don't know if I'll ever return to it.

It's incredibly well made, on all fronts, and certainly something every gamer should experience, but goddamn what a punishing game to play to completion.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Easily a top 10 game of all time for me, and most of the hatred for it sadly comes from the silly culture wars.

Exactly.

 

[Humdinger]

no amount of graphical polish can redeem a narrative that mistakes misery for depth and manipulation for storytelling. That you consider this the pinnacle of creative expression says more about your standards than the game's quality. But by all means keep celebrating your beloved trauma simulator. Just don't expect the rest of us to mistake it for art.

Literally this, it's was one of the things we where drilled into in the art of moving image (essentially a degree to aid in getting into the TV and film industry) "dont mistake misery for depth, suffering for complexity, its a very American thing to do" which got a big round of laughter in the hall. Now with a anouther 2 decades under me I realise how true that is, you see it all the time in American shows, whilst European (and us in the UK) manage to avoid this trap. Although in recent years with how streaming services work this resilience in the writers is starting to fall into the same traps.

TLoU 2 is essentially a showcase of how to make mistakes as a writer in videogame form. The fact "critics" missed this tells you what you need to know about the video game press at the time.

Ah, that's a very good way to put it. I remember in his review, Skill Up referred to it as "suffer porn." Similar idea. You are highlighting one of the main things that turned me off.

 

[TGO]

For those that don't know, most of TLOU2 was meant for TLOU1.
The revenge story, the dual character, a certain character dying, Joel was just a criminal instead of a father.
Bruce shot them all down and that's how we got the original TLOU.

 

[DForce]

For those that don't know, most of TLOU2 was meant for TLOU1.
The revenge story, the dual character, a certain character dying, Joel was just a criminal instead of a father.
Bruce shot them all down and that's how we got the original TLOU.

The story was rejected multiple times by Sony and not by Bruce. That's how we got the original Story of The Last of Us.

 

[Ellery]

You're god damn right.

Five years and we are still waiting for other developers to catch up to that game.

 

[semiconscious]

Ah, that's a very good way to put it. I remember in his review, Skill Up referred to it as "suffer porn." Similar idea. You are highlighting one of the main things that turned me off.

agree. thing is, tho (as is obvious in this thread): american audiences continue to eat this stuff up. it just works. which's why 'creatives' will continue to do it...

 

[TGO]

The story was rejected multiple times by Sony and not by Bruce. That's how we got the original Story of The Last of Us.

Maybe so, but Bruce wasn't convinced either

 

[DForce]

Maybe so, but Bruce wasn't convinced either

Neil talks about why their pitches didn't work in the keynote.

The fact is, they were stories presented and then rejected. This happened multiple times while Bruce was helping Neil with the story.

 

[TGO]

Neil talks about why their pitches didn't work in the keynote.

The fact is, they were stories presented and then rejected. This happened multiple times while Bruce was helping Neil with the story.

My point is TLOU2 is Neils original vision for the TLOU.
I do find it odd that his version was shot down by Sony and not others at Naughty Dog considering Sony's championed"developer freedom" which doesn't apply for Druckmann apparently.

 

[Liopleurodon]

Someone didn't play MGS series.

 

[Humdinger]

agree. thing is, tho (as is obvious in this thread): american audiences continue to eat this stuff up. it just works. which's why 'creatives' will continue to do it...

Yeah, and they'll probably keep reaching for ever-greater shock value to replace good storytelling.

I think it's possible to treat these subjects (suffering, trauma, etc.) deftly. We need good art to shine a light on the worst aspects of human nature, just like the best. But it needs to be done well, as part of a good overall story, great characters, good writing, etc. - not as an end in itself.

For a short time a couple years ago, I delved into the subgenre of "disturbing" fiction - fiction dealing with subjects that are allegedly horrible and painful. I say "allegedly" because, although there were a couple of novels that genuinely disturbed me, 95% of them were not disturbing at all. They were not disturbing because they were trying so hard and so obviously to be disturbing. It all felt so artificial, so staged, so heavy-handed, it just fell flat. They lacked the storytelling and characterization chops to immerse you as a reader, so the action just came across as random and meaningless. Not disturbing at all, just a waste of time.

 

[thuGG_pl]

TLOU2 dragged too much for me, at the end I was tired of it. Should have been 1/3 shorter. I didn't like the final act at all.

 

[laynelane]

Yeah, and they'll probably keep reaching for ever-greater shock value to replace good storytelling.

I think it's possible to treat these subjects (suffering, trauma, etc.) deftly. We need good art to shine a light on the worst aspects of human nature, just like the best. But it needs to be done well, as part of a good overall story, great characters, good writing, etc. - not as an end in itself.

For a short time a couple years ago, I delved into the subgenre of "disturbing" fiction - fiction dealing with subjects that are allegedly horrible and painful. I say "allegedly" because, although there were a couple of novels that genuinely disturbed me, 95% of them were not disturbing at all. They were not disturbing because they were trying so hard and so obviously to be disturbing. It all felt so artificial, so staged, so heavy-handed, it just fell flat. They lacked the storytelling and characterization chops to immerse you as a reader, so the action just came across as random and meaningless. Not disturbing at all, just a waste of time.

Are there any video games that you think have done justice to those themes? Silent Hill 2 comes to mind for me. It gives you the information, the clues, to understand the circumstances of why the titular characters are going through the events in the game - but never in a heavy-handed way. It trusts you to decipher it for yourself (which I really appreciate) and make your own judgments. As well, it deals with a wide range of uncomfortable emotions - grief, rage, cruelty, etc. and states - depression, psychotic anger, etc. - and imparts the message that not all people can overcome them or heal in a meaningful way. Sometimes what they've gone through, and the actions they've taken in response, are simply too painful.

The other games also deal with difficult topics, but I think Silent Hill 2 did it the best.

 

[SpokkX]

I loved most of TLOU2:s general story of revenge and dialogue as well as the brutal gameplay

However - It really was the start of bringing modern politics into games and I did not really care at the time of release..

Now, a few years later, it really just looks a bit pathetic - the political stuff really stands out and feels very pushed onto the player

 

[Humdinger]

Are there any video games that you think have done justice to those themes? Silent Hill 2 comes to mind for me. It gives you the information, the clues, to understand the circumstances of why the titular characters are going through the events in the game - but never in a heavy-handed way. It trusts you to decipher it for yourself (which I really appreciate) and make your own judgments. As well, it deals with a wide range of uncomfortable emotions - grief, rage, cruelty, etc. and states - depression, psychotic anger, etc. - and imparts the message that not all people can overcome them or heal in a meaningful way. Sometimes what they've gone through, and the actions they've taken in response, are simply too painful.

The other games also deal with difficult topics, but I think Silent Hill 2 did it the best.

Nothing comes to mind for me. I've heard Spec-Ops: The Line handled some difficult themes well, but I haven't played that one.

I've avoided Silent Hill 2. I don't like being scared, lol. Your description makes it sound interesting, though.

 

[semiconscious]

Yeah, and they'll probably keep reaching for ever-greater shock value to replace good storytelling.

I think it's possible to treat these subjects (suffering, trauma, etc.) deftly. We need good art to shine a light on the worst aspects of human nature, just like the best. But it needs to be done well, as part of a good overall story, great characters, good writing, etc. - not as an end in itself.

For a short time a couple years ago, I delved into the subgenre of "disturbing" fiction - fiction dealing with subjects that are allegedly horrible and painful. I say "allegedly" because, although there were a couple of novels that genuinely disturbed me, 95% of them were not disturbing at all. They were not disturbing because they were trying so hard and so obviously to be disturbing. It all felt so artificial, so staged, so heavy-handed, it just fell flat. They lacked the storytelling and characterization chops to immerse you as a reader, so the action just came across as random and meaningless. Not disturbing at all, just a waste of time.

'shock value' is simply emotional manipulation in its most basic form, whether it's someone jumping out of a closet or suddenly getting their head blown off. i agree that there're much better ways of dealing with dark subject matter, but i'm not so sure that the potential market for such material could come close to the more tried & true 'shock' approach. there's always been a huge audience for getting their emotions manipulated (everything from daytime soap operas to 'kids in a cabin' movies), & it's not surprising that video games have become more open to going for that same type appeal, tho, yeah, the 'kids in the cabin' approach is likely seen by game 'creatives' as being preferable to the daytime soap approach (what with the medium being pretty action-oriented)...

i was especially disappointed/disgusted with last of us 2 because i love the original, which i felt handled some pretty dark material in a surprisingly understated way, so much:


it was, at its core, a game about a relationship. in comparison, last of us 2, in the name of 'mature content', simply went full-on grindhouse, imo. it's a game about relentless violence, & the characters are almost afterthoughts, who're there primarily to propel it along...

i've read some staged/heavy-handed crime fiction, & it absolutely sucked, so i won't be reading any 'disturbing fiction', either. thanks for the heads-up...

 

[Humdinger]

'shock value' is simply emotional manipulation in its most basic form, whether it's someone jumping out of a closet or suddenly getting their head blown off. i agree that there're much better ways of dealing with dark subject matter, but i'm not so sure that the potential market for such material could come close to the more tried & true 'shock' approach. there's always been a huge audience for getting their emotions manipulated (everything from daytime soap operas to 'kids in a cabin' movies), & it's not surprising that video games have become more open to going for that same type appeal,

Oh yeah, I agree about the commercial aspect. Cheap emotionally manipulative junk will always outsell quality art - if for no other reason than the sheer volume produced. I was talking more about my personal taste rather than what sells well. But yeah, I don't expect good art to outsell commercial schlock. And I don't expect writers and producers to stop chasing an audience and a buck.

i've read some staged/heavy-handed crime fiction, & it absolutely sucked, so i won't be reading any 'disturbing fiction', either. thanks for the heads-up...

The Girl Next Door by Jack Ketchum was the only one that really bothered me. That one stayed with me a while.

Fwiw, other people I talked with said they found a whole range of material disturbing that I did not. I think I'm more impervious to being disturbed by fiction than most people. I'm always aware, even when the storytelling is good, that this is just a story that some person made up in their head. That makes it hard to feel disturbed by it. It doesn't feel real to me. It's "just a story."

That "made up" effect gets amplified in the disturbing genre (and with TLOU 2), because the writers are often so obviously, ham-fistedly trying for an emotional effect that it comes across manipulative and contrived, even more "made up" than fiction normally would. And so, less real; and so, less disturbing.

Otoh, I can be very disturbed by non-fiction accounts (e.g., the Holocaust or wartime experiences) - because I know they are real.

 

[Jesb]

This thread has got me in the mood to replay this again. I'm not a fan of where the story or characters went in this game but man I forgot how incredible the combat and animations are in this game. The death sequences are also the best than any other game. Absolutely brutal when the lickers rip out your neck. Or 10 zombies pounding on Abbie's face. How satisfying was that to see her get beat to a pulp…

I still can't believe what they did to my boy Joel. Absolutely disgusting brutal end for him. There's a lot of stuff that this game does better than anything else even today. I can't imagine how good what they do next will be.

 

[iHaunter]

Animations are unmatched to this day.

 

[Exede]

Good for you OP, i hate it with a passion. Will never ever buy a part 3.

In my head part 2 doesn't exist.

 

[Shift!]

Someone didn't play MGS series.

It's impossible to reason with TLOU fans, they think they invented the concept of horror.

 

[VulcanRaven]

One of my favorite games of all time. Definitely in top 10. Better than the first game in every way except for the story. Its still very good though.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Death Stranding 2 could have looked better visually in most parts, but this is great.

 

[VulcanRaven]

1. Ellie is a lezbian. Who has time to be a lesbian during the apocalypse? Ellie, that is who. The whole "every chick is a lesbian" is just overplayed now. I just roll my eyes and laugh every time I hear that a character is a lesbian. Pretty much just the default these days. Let me know when a chick is straight. Now that is interesting.

Do you also complain how Tommy has time to be in a relationship and get married with Maria? If not that makes no sense at all.