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[DForce]

It absolutely does indicate hopes & prayers. They were desperate. Marlene especially so & a part of her knew the hard truth that Joel showed her when he said "Yeah. You keep telling yourself that bullshit" Hence those tears you heard in her voice.

The doctor was excited & desperate, as I already explained.

Glad you at least acknowledge that there was a little doubt though. That's a start.

If you're writing a scene, you don't depict excitement when something is based on a hope and a prayer.

I also didn't acknowledge it, I basically said even IF that was the case, it wouldn't matter based what they said. They saw it as a cure, and they believe it was a cure.

 

[JORMBO]

Not sure what the power company is doing here. Had a small storm and now it’s sunny. The power has cut out four times in the last hour. I keep getting rolled back to the start of the game every time I try to play. Time to ride the horse down to town a fifth time!

 

[Big Baller]

wtf yo. Just started the game (Pro) and it already started buggin out in the first cutscene lol! Ellie was bouncing up and down and some doctor started spinning out of control.

 

[ebevan91]

Man I hate the save system of this series.

I went into a building and went through the first door I saw and triggered a cutscene and now I can’t go back in and the game saved too. There were at least 2 rooms I could’ve went in...

 

[Steve.1981]

If you're writing a scene, you don't depict excitement when something is based on a hope and a prayer.

I also didn't acknowledge it, I basically said even IF that was the case, it wouldn't matter based what they said. They saw it as a cure, and they believe it was a cure.

Why not depict excitement when something is based on hopes & prayers? Are you a writer? Is this a hard, fast rule? Do people never feel nervous excitement?

& it doesn't matter if they saw it as a cure, because there was no proof it was a cure. They wanted it to be a cure. They desperately needed it to be a cure. They tried to tell themselves it was a cure. But the fact is there was no guarantee.

 

[MiguelItUp]

It absolutely does indicate hopes & prayers. They were desperate. Marlene especially so & a part of her knew the hard truth that Joel showed her when he said "Yeah. You keep telling yourself that bullshit" Hence those tears you heard in her voice.

The doctor was excited & desperate, as I already explained.

Glad you at least acknowledge that there was a little doubt though. That's a start.

This is exactly how I took and understood everything. Especially in TLOU's world and universe, hell and the scenario they were in. How could they legitimately guarantee the surgery could provide a cure? They couldn't. With her being immune it brought about new hopes and dreams into the fold, so, how could they not be curious and excited? But there's absolutely no guarantee that the surgery could provide any kind of cure, or even steps towards one.

Call me cynical, but I felt that if that surgery and research DID occur, Ellie would be gone and they'd be left empty handed. So there was really only one right thing to do as I didn't want Ellie to die for nothing.

 

[Cactuarman]

Well if you want to look at it that way, how about this? In my playthroughs, it was Joel who found the diaries & recordings that explained all of this stuff. So I assume he knows it.

Which is why I said if you think of it like two endings: Joel knows something vs Joel doesn't. Naughty Dog went with Ending 1.

EviLore straight says "retcon" so maybe I'm just missing how anything in Part II undercuts the Joel from Part I.

@Steve.1981 yeah, the immediate retcon leaves a sour taste. The prologue makes Joel out to be overly sentimental and sappy, as if he was too weak to do what was necessary to save the world, instead of a man of strong convictions seeing through a difficult personal choice where there were no easy answers. This was a guy who was more or less dead inside, but found enough of a spark of life through Ellie to channel his darkness toward saving her.

It was the most powerful aspect of TLOU1, and absolutely should not have been tampered with.

But like, he is sentimental. I don't understand this interpretation of one decision being "weak" or indicative of him not being a strong man. My struggle with the end of 1 is that I understood both scenarios. Joel is so much more connected to Ellie because he lost his daughter and is unwilling to lose another one. I, however, was pretty uncomfortable when Joel started killing everyone to save her because even the potential for a vaccine seems pretty fucking important. And talking about what Joel should or shouldn't have done led to some really interesting conversations and analysis.

At no point did I think "ah good Joel made the decision a good strong man would have made". No where in Part II's opening did I read anything Joel was saying as the game telling me that joel wasn't strong enough to make the "right" decision. The whole point of the ending is that there is no "right" decision. Everyone, including Joel and Tommy, are conflicted just as we, the player, should be.

Edit: Typo

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Just started the game I have noticed some pandering, but I am REALLY liking the gameplay and atmosphere. I just got to the first spore section of the game.

 

[Big Baller]

wth man. The game is really buggin out on me. Animations start skippin, cutscenes all fucked up. Am I the only one or what.

 

[MiguelItUp]

wth man. The game is really buggin out on me. Animations start skippin, cutscenes all fucked up. Am I the only one or what.

Man, can you provide any footage? I haven't seen anyone else at all talking about that kind of stuff.

 

[The_Observer]

Okay, this is nextgen right here, right now on my launch PS4. Wtf is this? It shouldn't be possible. I've just finished the winter part and I'm in the forest where I've spent an unhealthy amount of time being in awe of the graphics and taking screenshots. Nothing can prepare you for that. It's like Crysis in 2007 when the sun comes up at the beginning. I was already amazed but this forest just made me go total nuts. It's the same as in June 2013, when we got a glimpse of nextgen with The Last of Us. Otherwise, this is an adult game with adult themes just like the first game, and though I despise woke bullshit, I must admit that these characters seem uncomfortably real and it feels like a worthy sequel to the first game despite its wokeness. I already had my first heartbreaking moment and I imagine it was not the last. It's really heavy. And the violence is really disturbing. The mood and tone of the game feels similar to the first, a very harsh world with the occasional joyful moments accompanied with similar beautiful music as in the first game. I took part in the circlejerks against the woke bullshit in it, but must admit that this game is something else. So as final words, yeah, it seems as a worthy sequel.

Edit: forgot to praise the sound design too, it's insane, the weapon sounds, the clickers, the sounds of the world, the voice acting, everything is top notch, but honestly, every aspect of the game is like that, congrats to each one of the developers, you can be proud

 

[Steve.1981]

Which is why I said if you think of it like two endings: Joel knows something vs Joel doesn't. Naughty Dog went with Ending 1...

Yeah, I'm saying Joel knows this stuff. Naughty Dog shouldn't have went with any other interpretation. There shouldn't be any other interpretation.

& nothing justifies killing an innocent child. Not even the potential of a vaccine. That's you talking about "the greater good" right there. Said it before & I'll say it again;

Fuck the greater good.

 

[Woggleman]

I think certain things are said as a middle finger to some of the haters and I honestly don't blame them. Nobody who isn't threatened by certain groups being visible should be offended by any of this.

 

[DForce]

Why not depict excitement when something is based on hopes & prayers? Are you a writer? Is this a hard, fast rule? Do people never feel nervous excitement?

& it doesn't matter if they saw it as a cure, because there was no proof it was a cure. They wanted it to be a cure. They desperately needed it to be a cure. They tried to tell themselves it was a cure. But the fact is there was no guarantee.

You're telling me that they were hoping an praying. Anyone who listens to her words know she wasn't hoping that it would happen, she totally believed it WILL happen.

Joel is basically referencing what Marlene believed and that they were going to make a cure.

 

[Steve.1981]

You're telling me that they were hoping an praying. Anyone who listens to her words know she wasn't hoping that it would happen, she totally believed it WILL happen.

Joel is basically referencing what Marlene believed and that they were going to make a cure.

Yes, I am telling you that. I listened to her words. She was hoping, praying & desperately trying to justify her actions.

 

[meanspartan]

Played up to Seattle day one.

I don't like the way the game just started, straight out the gate, rewriting the ending of part 1. No Dr Uckman, you can't just say that the Fireflies were going to make a cure. That's not how you wrote it, that's not how it went down. I know, I paid attention. They had no clue what would happen when they cut up Ellie's brain. They simply hoped and prayed, in their desperation, that it would lead to something tangible.

Ouch. Very disappointing if true.

The whole brilliance of the ending of TLOU1 is that you could see how Joel could argue it as not a selfish act, because it was a crapshoot of whether they would even be able to get a cure out of Ellie (even though we all knew his real motivator was saving Ellie, and he would have done it regardless). The ends do not justify the means if you are 50/50 at best of even getting a cure, and maybe less.

If it was a foregone conclusion they'd get a cure, the ambiguity is gone. Lame.

 

[Danjin44]

Finally put some good 2hours in to the game, yeah I’m digging this! This game can be so intense, also liking the dodge mechanic. So far very much impressed.

 

[DForce]

Yes, I am telling you that. I listened to her words. She was hoping, praying & desperately trying to justify her actions.

I'm sure if you ask most people, they'll say otherwise. lol

 

[Cactuarman]

Yeah, I'm saying Joel knows this stuff. Naughty Dog shouldn't have went with any other interpretation. There shouldn't be any other interpretation.

& nothing justifies killing an innocent child. Not even the potential of a vaccine. That's you talking about "the greater good" right there. Said it before & I'll say it again;

Fuck the greater good.

I mean, okay? I'm not objecting to whatever your personal stance is. My objection was to the idea that anything was rewritten or retconned. Or that Joel was only a strong man because he made the "fuck the greater good" stance.

It's possible to recognize that the greater good is important but that the cost, in this case, is too high. For you this was black and white and that's fine. But I think Naughty Dog framed it more as "it's complicated".

 

[Steve.1981]

I'm sure if you ask most people, they'll say otherwise. lol

Most people? Or you?

 

[DForce]

Most people? Or you?

Yes, because of what she clearly said.

Once they remove it, they'll be able to reverse engineer a vaccine. A vaccine.

She didn't say may, might, probably, she said they will be able to reverse engineer.

I don't know about you, but when someone tells me they will be able to do something, then they believe it will happen.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Watching a live play, it's like alien isolation or something, do a sneak attack, for some reason point a gun at their head, then switch to a knife and kill them, rinse repeat, any other method = death and start from checkpoint

 

[Steve.1981]

I mean, okay? I'm not objecting to whatever your personal stance is. My objection was to the idea that anything was rewritten or retconned. Or that Joel was only a strong man because he made the "fuck the greater good" stance.

It's possible to recognize that the greater good is important but that the cost, in this case, is too high. For you this was black and white and that's fine. But I think Naughty Dog framed it more as "it's complicated".

It's rewritten or retconned because Naughty Dog have pretended that the complicated situation wasn't actually. They're now saying that the cure was a definite. Which means Joel definitely "doomed mankind" or whatever it is that people say.

Joel showed courage & strength of character at the end of part 1 by seeing through Marlene & the Fireflie's bullshit. ND have now changed that.

Yes, because of what she clearly said.



She didn't say may, might, probably, she said they will be able to reverse engineer.

I don't know about you, but when someone tells me they will be able to do something, then they believe it will happen.

We're back here again?

Marlene said those words both to placate Joel & to try to justify her actions & assuage some of the guilt she felt.

 

[DForce]

Marlene said those words both to placate Joel & to try to justify her actions & assuage some of the guilt she felt.

Right.. lol

 

[Steve.1981]

Right.. lol

Cool

 

[Mossybrew]

You guys are getting caught up on a really minor nitpick with this "how certain would the cure have been" topic.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Wait, what’s this about retconning? I haven’t picked up on anything that felt retconned. Even if in-game there are people that believe 100% dissecting Ellie would’ve led to a cure, I don’t think that’s a retcon. Granted I’m coming from Day 1 in (second area)

Spoiler

Seattle

but my thought is Marlene had a whole crew get wiped out to get to SLC in the first game and upsetting those plans for selfish reasons would have pissed off a lot of people...whether you thought 100% cutting Ellie up would’ve worked or 50% or whatever, a lot of people would’ve been mad at the decision made at the end of the first game. What was retconned? I do think Joel and Tommy are acting our of character at the beginning of the game but that’s a different complaint imo

 

[Steve.1981]

You guys are getting caught up on a really minor nitpick with this "how certain would the cure have been" topic.

It's not really that minor a nitpick to me. It's pretty important to consider all of the facts of a situation before making a judgement call, I think.

& it was a pretty big reason why the ending of part 1 worked so well, I thought.

Wait, what’s this about retconning?

At the very beginning of the game, Joel says "They were going to make a cure" like it was perfectly, clearly, 100% definite.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Damn y'all virgins arguing in the OT and it isn't even been a day since the game dropped? Bruh.

I just got up to the TLOU 1.5 pack in that normies were crying for. "BAWWWWWWW WE WANT MORE JOEL AND ELLIE ADVENTURES." Bro you got it like 6 hours in. Chill.

 

[ebevan91]

Dina is low-key thicc

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Watching a live play, it's like alien isolation or something, do a sneak attack, for some reason point a gun at their head, then switch to a knife and kill them, rinse repeat, any other method = death and start from checkpoint

It's torture on Survivor. If you're spotted, you're essentially dead, but it's hard to not be spotted.

 

[AddiF]

Just bought it, haven't started playing it yet. But wow the user scores on metacritic... are they justified or what is going on here? Such mixed responses.

 

[Iceternal]

Dina is low-key thicc

But they massively reduced her boobs from her real actress.

 

[Woggleman]

Just bought it, haven't started playing it yet. But wow the user scores on metacritic... are they justified or what is going on here? Such mixed responses.

90% of them most likely never played the game and don't intend to.

 

[Steve.1981]

Just bought it, haven't started playing it yet. But wow the user scores on metacritic... are they justified or what is going on here? Such mixed responses.

User scores on Metacritic are meaningless really. Anyone can make an account, say whatever they want & score something 0 or 10 depending on whatever agenda they're pushing. It's best to just ignore them.

In fact, it's probably best to just ignore Metacritic in general. Always make up your own mind about stuff, that's the way to do it.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

At the very beginning of the game, Joel says "They were going to make a cure" like it was perfectly, clearly, 100% definite.

Eh I can chalk that up to unreliable narrator, summarizing it for his bro, etc. Retconning is more like “what I told you was true...from a certain point of view.” There’s a dozen reasons why Joel might’ve said that while questioning it at the time or even emphasizing/exaggerating the possibility of a cure as a sort of penance thing. I don’t think I’d throw that into retcon territory. I’ve got more an issue with him and Tommy seemingly gone totally soft.

 

[Isa]

This is my first chance to enjoy a launch night in some time, and I've been loving the game so far. I viewed the spoilers at the time and I have to say that some of my reasons for still giving the game a chance were that I love Naughty Dog's past works, often system sellers for me and I feel they deserve a chance, and that after the final trailers dropped they offered such a well directed and sounding delivery I felt I needed to see this one for myself.

I actually feel bad for reading and seeing (some) spoilers and feel I did a disservice to myself. Big time. Thankfully there is plenty to still be amazed and surprised about, but those other moments would have had a far greater impact going in blind. Regardless, I've not been put off by anything I've seen and I've actually been even more sold on the characters and story. As for the gameplay its a blast thankfully. Its intense, I love exploring every nook and cranny foraging for supplies and I absolutely love how each encounter can play out differently. Graphically its very impressive, obviously there are parts where I'm reminded of current technical limitations, but once again world building through environmental detail is superb, those artists, hell everyone on the team deserves some serious praise. I can only imagine what they're going to be able to accomplish with the PS5.

Last night I stayed up way to late like a kid again, and even got jump scared and woke up my lady. And we're both itching to dive back in for another all night-er. This really is something special.

 

[HotPocket69]

I’m actually really enjoying it in a weird way. The writing is questionable and some of the plot choices are fucked up but this feels like such a throwback fucked up revenge tale that I can’t help but get balls deep.

It’s one of the best looking games I’ve ever seen. And the ambient music is fucking awesome.

 

[Ogbert]

Just bought it, haven't started playing it yet. But wow the user scores on metacritic... are they justified or what is going on here? Such mixed responses.

Mostly nonsense.

It looks amazing, plays ok and has a silly story.

Im enjoying it but it’s obviously been overrated, just like most AAA titles.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I’m actually really enjoying it in a weird way. The writing is questionable and some of the plot choices are fucked up but this feels like such a throwback fucked up revenge tale that I can’t help but get balls deep.

It’s one of the best looking games I’ve ever seen. And the ambient music is fucking awesome.

Glad to hear that man! Considering I generally fap over revenge stories, I'm sure it'll scratch that itch regardless of its quirks and bizarre direction. I will check it out at some point, just not rushing to do so.

 

[SNPlayen]

Image of one of the new enemy types in the Capital Hill Autonomous Zone in Seattle

 

[Woggleman]

If anybody has speakers or headphones that support 3D Audio I highly recommend it and put dynamic range on maximum. You can hear the gunshots just pop. This game has as many customization options as a PC game.

 

[carlosrox]

Alright I'm installing.

 

[Neff]

Just played it for about 8 hours.

I'm definitely enjoying it, and I'm looking forward to going back for more, but so far it hasn't impressed me as much as the original. Then again I've heard the game is massive and I may just be scratching the surface for all I know.

 

[dream]

Is there any word on a hot fix or workaround for the elevator shaft bug? I’ve been blocked from progressing for like the past 12 hours.

 

[Halo is Back]

You guys are getting caught up on a really minor nitpick with this "how certain would the cure have been" topic.

Why not? That is literally the emotional climax of the game. If you read the hidden logs they admit to trying the same procedure on other people killing them and still no cure.

 

[GodParticle]

Wasn't planning on getting this, but the hype got the better of me. First thing out of the gate....Jesse's voice actor does not fit the character at all and really is distracting lol

 

[SNPlayen]

Im about 5-6 hrs and I am enjoying a lot. The combat and stealth is much more free flowing than the first. Many stealth games including the first I feel inclined to restart after being spotted but not this game, it’s fun to continue. Graphics are exceptional, they get better and better, and the open areas are fun.

Moment to moment story beats are mostly good but.... that big early on spoiler is rushed and doesn’t hit well at all. I am fearful for the rest of the game. One of the few reviewers I trust, Skill up described as Game of Thrones season 8. Part 1 is one of my favourite games and a lot of that is to do with story. I’m not confident this story will do the same

 

[HotPocket69]

Glad to hear that man! Considering I generally fap over revenge stories, I'm sure it'll scratch that itch regardless of its quirks and bizarre direction. I will check it out at some point, just not rushing to do so.

Im pretty sure you will approve of some of it

 

[MiguelItUp]

Why not? That is literally the emotional climax of the game. If you read the hidden logs they admit to trying the same procedure on other people killing them and still no cure.

Yeah, this isn't really something that I'd consider nitpicky IMO. Especially in a game/series that is SO driven by story.