I'm just not fine with the "hey, people do weird stuff, just roll with it" universal excuse. It seems like it's always invoked at some point or another, when discussing Lindelof's work.
If only that were all they did!
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The Leftovers S2 |OT| We're Going To Texas - [Renewed for 3rd and final season]
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
"And not only is it right to be, but the people who aren't depressed are wrong, and we need to live to show them how wrong they are."
bodyofanamerican
Member
HYYYYPE.
From Sepinwall's Twitter:
From Sepinwall's Twitter:
biosnake20
Member
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Yeah, the whole way the show depicted and handled that occurrence was really gross.
Kadayi
Banned
I think its exceptionally foolhardy to imposes ones external belief systems onto characters and expect them to somehow naturally conform to them. The way a character sees the world and their experiences is through their eyes and their situation.
Was that your best attempt at a counterpoint? Patti was pretty off the rails and had a fairly antagonistic relationship before dying with Kevin in life, why she be any different in death exactly? Hell she killed herself in order to try and frame him and ruin his life in Season One. Seriously you do need to pay attention, because you're consistently failing to grasp the reason for things it seems.
Was that your best attempt at a counterpoint? Patti was pretty off the rails and had a fairly antagonistic relationship before dying with Kevin in life, why she be any different in death exactly? Hell she killed herself in order to try and frame him and ruin his life in Season One. Seriously you do need to pay attention, because you're consistently failing to grasp the reason for things it seems.
SpideySenses
Member
Yeah, not to mention that in that moment he was trying to get in her head, even if he sees himself as a victim, there's no reason to give her any perceived power in that scenario.
Thank you, that was precisely my point.
What your point was, on the other hand, I'm not so sure. You were disagreeing with me, right? About what though?
Kadayi
Banned
But she didn't purposely come back to haunt him (that's a massive presumption on your part). Kevin confronted her about it during the season and she confessed that she didn't know why she was there, or how to go away. He was taking the lead there from his what his father said about how he solved his own particular situation by finally doing what the voices said versus resisting them. Your assuming intent on her part as if somehow she's in control of her manifestation, where as that's clearly not the case. The whole point of episode 8 was about him going to purgatory and effectively freeing her so she could fully cross over. Seriously this shit is not rocket science in terms of narrative complexity, why is it so hard to grasp the beats exactly?
Please pay a bit more attention to the flow of the conversation.
I was responding to ThLunarian's claim that "Patti was a scared and insecure little girl".
Note how I had argued earlier that the purgatory episode basically switched Patti's character as it had been portrayed during most of the show for that "scared and insecure little girl" version just for the sake of "the feels". I called that a parlor trick.
So my point there was that, no, the Patti we had seen during most of the show, the Patti Kevin was trying to get rid of, was not a "scared and insecure little girl". It wasn't at all about whether or not Patti chose to appear as a Force ghost. That's besides the point. It was about how she behaved, both when she was the leader of that Guilty Remnant chapter in season 1 and from beyond the graaaaave in season 2. About her character's portrayal.
That being said, if you want to talk about that...
... note that our source regarding that is super-trustworthy Ghost Patti. It might still be true (frankly, I don't care, as I don't think the writers do either), but I find it a bit odd that you'd so readily take that claim at face value, considering... "Massive presumption", indeed!
I fully expect the answer to be mundane but i also think that by letting us know the answer + Meg's reaction we might possible deduce what kind of an answer she was hoping to get. The episode was already fighting an uphill battle trying to elucidate Meg's character by condensing everything to one episode. This was only the second ep Meg was in this season, presumably they didn't want her in more because it might have ruined the twist. Leaving stuff out for the sake of leaving stuff out doesn't help in fleshing out her character.
Regarding the GR, the problem is its members are treated as drones that are up for anything. From everything we know these are ordinary people who were drawn to the organization one way or another. What the show fails to establish or base is why anyone would stay when they are being instructed to hurt and kill people. 'Oh, is that what you're doing? 'Cya.'
"Surely our audience will think of something to fill in the blanks!"
The overwhelming majority of the GR is non-violent (except against themselves).
Meg has her own clique that's drawn to her for whatever reason ("She's going to change everything!") but they don't represent the majority.
Kadayi
Banned
Do you not understand the concept of manifestation? It was clear from the episode that how she appeared to Neil was different from how she appeared to Kevin, because she was attempting to hide from him. Once the jig was up there wasn't anywhere for her to go so she was resigned to her fate. When she's at the bottom of the well all illusions were stripped away.
The fact that Patti is trapped in purgatory and is lumbered with Neil undermines this notion that she's any choice in things. The solution to the situation always lay with Kevin entering Virgils Trailer.
I get what you're saying, but I think it would be hard to find an avenue to slot Meg into an earlier episode, save an extension of her appearance in the Tommy/Laurie episode but centered around her relationship with the latter to some degree. Mayhap something might of been filmed, but was dropped for brevity. We'll have to wait to see. Personally I don't need it.
Yeah she's out there operating like Colonel Kurtz. She's less about the appearance and more about the action.
They're Nihilists. From their perspective the world ended 4 years ago, people doing anything from there on in is a colossal waste of time in their view and their mission is to get people to recognise this. Megs just more militant versus a lot of the others.
I'm not quite sure how that relates to the point I was making...
Or do you think that's really consistent with how her character had been portrayed until then? Patti hiding from Kevin? Readily accepting her fate as soon as Kevin finds out? Being scared of death? That's the same Patti who killed herself to frame him?
If you say so. Does the fact she apparently was running for president mean something as well? What about her having apparently hired a double on the limbo-internet?
And they don't think that's a colossal waste of time?
I know you're largely referring to post-Departure Patti- the Patti we're initially introduced to, but this scene from season 1 certainly suggests shades of insecurity, among other not-well things going on in her head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoAlQHTBPOI
Kadayi
Banned
Unlike most people there, Kevin hasn't drunk the water and thus not forgotten why he's there. Similarly Neil hasn't either (he's stuck to the booze) that's why he knows that he's dead and is amused at those around him who think they're in a functional reality.
I think it's fair to say that purgatory as it is portrayed is akin to a maze of mirrors. It's a mistake to envisage it that there's a logic of relationship to it given it's a test of oneself. As Virgil pointed out the challenge before him was a resultant of the suit he chose. The senator was never Patti, and it's unlikely whether Wayne of Gladys were their former selves either versus manifestations to test Kevin. If he'd picked the priest or Police uniforms the challenge would likely have been different. Within this zone it's clear that others are caught up in their own enactments as evinced by the other lost souls caught up in the Hotel such as the priest in the Elevator.
I would guess that their end goal would be for the human race to cease to be. For those left behind to simply down tools and put aside all thought of procreation and the future and simply wink out of existence as time grinds on.
I agree, as noted there.
(Amusingly, that pre-departure season 1 episode also dealt with Kevin longing for an attachment-free life, so on top of being silly, that whole "international assassin" thing didn't really bring anything new to the table. In fact, it seems to imply Kevin is still the same character he was four years earlier, which... yay for character development.)
Still, Patti's character changed quite a bit after the departure. The Patti we're familiar with, the Patti Kevin was stuck with and was trying to get rid of no longer was a passive, insecure victim. So it sure was an "odd choice" to send her character off / resolve her relation with Kevin by conveniently ignoring all that. If you're willing to look past that whole "exterminate the Jews" thing and dig deep enough, I guess you could argue Hitler was actually just a scared, innocent child at heart, too. For what it's worth.
I'm not sure I follow you...
Is your point that Patti drank water and thus forgot who she was?
I mean... yeah, she almost drowned, so you could absolutely argue that she was affected by the magic Lethe water, sure, but... Even ignoring the apparent contradictions (she recognizes Kevin, for instance), that would merely serve as a magical explanation for her character's sudden change in that episode. My problem with that change remains the same: that it was a cheap trick to conveniently forget about the Patti we had seen during most of the series, the Patti Kevin was trying to get rid of in the first place, and replace her with a more sympathetic version just for the sake of "the feels". As said above, that's how you send that character off and resolve that plot line? By sweeping it all under the carpet?
As I pointed out in a previous post, who would pick another outfit in that situation though?
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Look at you, trying to rationalize the actions of a cult again. "Well jeez had I been there when Jim Jones was passing out the kool-aid I would have just said no thank you, sir! I will not drink the poison!"
Well, it doesn't get much more blatant a contradiction. As I pointed out earlier, you'd think somebody who believes everything is pointless wouldn't even see the point in joining the group in the first place. They can be depressed / suicidal just fine on their own. But I guess the show needed convenient villains.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
No, you're trying to figure out the rationality of the actions of cult members and leadership. That's going to be very difficult to do, and before you hand-wave it away again with some dumb Lindelof "I'll let the audience make sense of it!" sarcasm like you always do, the reasons for joining are actually apparent if you're paying attention, and the overarching theme of what they're attempting to do as a group is there to piece together.
After years of that kind of bullshit, it's hard not to see the pattern, really.
If you say so...
Kadayi
Banned
At this point you're just being obtuse for the sake of it. The original point was to do with manifestation and that how Kevin saw Patti was distinct from how Neil saw her.
I dare say that within the fiction of the world there are people who did just gave up, but based on past form as presented that's not the GR approach, nor would it be realistic for them all to act in exactly the same manner as Dave rightly points out.
He wasn't presented with the challenge to eliminate Patti until after he picked the suit. Being in an unfamiliar place he could of just as easily chosen the police uniform given that was his most recent profession tbh.
Based on what I've read I've gotta ask what exactly is it that Damon Lindelofs done to you to personally to earn your contempt to the extent that you're seemingly driven to rubbish everything he touches? Did he stiff you on some land deal, or murder your sister or something? What's the bone here?
I mean, personally I wasn't overly happy with the way LOST wrapped up, but I think that show went off the rails fairly early on when it became apparent that ABC didn't really want their unexpected cash cow to end and so the writers were forced to draw things out (and throw ever more mysteries into the mix) for a good 2 - 3 seasons longer than required. Now I certainly don't relieve Lindelof of responsibility for his part in how things concluded but at the same time I understand how it ended up going down that route so I tend to think of the show as this interesting failure. This idea of having a large ensemble cast where in everyone was technically supposed to be in equal standing seemed like an interesting idea, but in reality it just didn't hold up to scrutiny and catering too much to the whims of the fan base was a big mistake. With all that said. I moved on. Why can't you?
greendomo's ghost
Member
You'd think somebody who believes this show is pointless wouldn't even see the point in posting in a thread about it in the first place. They can be annoyed/disinterested just fine on their own. But I guess this thread needed a convenient villain.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Oh. Shiiiiiit.
It really wasn't, no, sorry. I mean, I know you suddenly started talking about that, but I still don't know why.
I imagine you're once again going to blame that on my being obtuse or plain idiotic, but I didn't get any of that.
"Based on past form" (?), it's not the GR approach to just give up? Well, considering what goes on in the show, clearly not, but you're just stating the obvious, there. And again, what is there to not give up on if you truly believe everything is pointless?
It wouldn't be realistic for them all (the GR?) to act in exactly the same manner? But they do. Aside from Meg's little faction that was just introduced last week, they do (and even then, the only difference comes from the leadership itself, really)
EDIT: Ah, wait. Did you mean that it wouldn't be realistic for all people who just gave up to act in exactly the same manner? My bad if I misunderstood. Although I'm not sure what your point would be either.
There again, I don't know how that relates to the point I was making at all...
Does that make sense to you? He has absolutely no idea where he is or what is going on, he obviously needs to put some clothes on... and he decides to impersonate a police officer right off the bat? When he could have just put some clothes on?
The "psych test" the show presents is hilariously biased toward the so-called "assassin outfit".
Oh, you really don't have to try and make this about me, no.
What is it that, say, Uwe Boll, Michael Bay, Orci/Kurtzman, etc, have done to earn so much criticism?
Do you think you could actually talk about the show instead of just showing up for some petty sniping BS like that?
(Same thing for those who merely react to that kind of posts, by the way.)
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Does this even matter? If the options presented implied a certain bias, what difference does that make to the show? This is extraordinarily picky for a series of scenes that were taking a dreamlike quality.
I feel like you're secretly Damon Lindelof trying to gauge what ideas and concepts people are getting from your writing. It's becoming the only explanation for your dogged breakdown of the show you claim to not enjoy.
Erigu doesn't want any answers or actual discussion, he just wants to be right.
The sooner you realise that, the sooner you realise there is no point in trying to engage him.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
He is the Guilty Remnant, and Lost was his departure. Since he is unable to move on from that show, he sees it as impossible that others can continue to enjoy Lindelof's work and has made it his mission to be a living reminder of Lindelof's failures.
I expect to go out to my car one morning and find him there, in white, smoking, with a piece of paper stating "The Leftovers sucks".
Considering the show makes it a point that Kevin's choice says a lot about his character, yes, I'd say it does, absolutely.
Speaking of that psych test, I also found it pretty funny how one of the four choices presented was a Guilty Remnant outfit... Yes, show, if one were to divide human beings into four archetypes, I'm sure your silly, nonsensical cult would be one of them. Hahaha...
Again, please spare us that BS.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Since when are the outfits the four archetypes for humanity?
Considering we see other people wearing the other outfits, I was under the impression the "test" was the same for everybody.
I mean, I guess you could argue that was just Kevin's own personal version of the test (and those other people were then... alternate versions of Kevin?? that sounds more likely, really?), but... a priest outfit? Why?
greendomo's ghost
Member
I came to talk about the show, but saw you were making the same old arguments about a show you've been hate watching for weeks. My post was actually adding to the discussion in the fact that you're trying to rationalize the behavior of the GR, when you're actually behaving exactly the same way. You feel like you're the only one who still remembers what Lindelof did years ago, and you have to be a living reminder to the rest of us.
We get it, you think the show is poorly written, plotted, and executed. So why do you keep showing up just to argue?
You've made your point. Move along. For your own sanity, if not for ours.
Okay, let's say you're serious about that...
When did I ever say that I considered everything pointless? Or that I considered discussing or criticizing a poorly-written show pointless?
Yeah.
Some other posters show up to say they like the show. Week after week, too! Will you also tell them to "move on"? After all, they've "made their point", right?
It's just negative criticism. Please don't derail the thread just because you don't like it when someone criticizes something you like.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Look, your posts criticizing the show are a significant portion of this thread. Negativity here and there can invite discussion, but you're taking it to a level that is going to antagonize people.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Not going to lie, I did enjoy the twist with Evie and co not being departed but joining the GR.
Will be very interesting to see how they play this in the finale. I suspect the GR is going to do something akin to making people think people who departed might come back one day and they'll use those three girls as their trump card, but that seems too predictable.
And goodness, I'd forgotten just how stunning the actress who plays Evie is.
Will be very interesting to see how they play this in the finale. I suspect the GR is going to do something akin to making people think people who departed might come back one day and they'll use those three girls as their trump card, but that seems too predictable.
And goodness, I'd forgotten just how stunning the actress who plays Evie is.
greendomo's ghost
Member
If you can't see that you're the one derailing the thread then I don't know what to say. Dave says it well:
If all your points are negative and argumentative, then there's not really a discussion taking place, just someone yelling loudly about their opinions. I don't think I've seen you mention anything positive about the show, just you picking apart people's comments about things they do like.
I was mixed on the episode up till that point as I'm still not really a fan of Tommy and his arc, but that ending made up for it. It's enough to make me want to watch the season again, or at very least the pilot.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Did we get season 3 picked up yet? Season 2 has elevated the experience of watching each week to, what I find to be, the best show airing on tv right now - despite how painful it is to watch, but of course that's the point! - it would be a shame to get such critical reginition but to end so soon due to low ratings. HBO knows what's up...
Very excited for tonight
Very excited for tonight
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Not really sure, since Meg really isn't the GR anymore. Whatever it is is going to be violent, I'm afraid.
And yes Evie is a babe.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Seems to me they'll be the ones strapped to the bombs that's going to blow up the entrance to Jarden, since the townsfolk are likely to let them in cause they are of the people.
No place is safe, lest they forgot
i'd like to think at the very least, HBO will give it another season to close things out. i don't expect it to be around much longer either way, show probably doesn't have insane production values but it's probably not particularly cheap either
definitely deserves way higher ratings. especially this season
bodyofanamerican
Member
Damon said an uptick in ratings would help tonight, but I'm honestly not hopeful for a season 3. Then again, I wasn't hopeful for a season 2, so who knows.
As far as how this season ends, I'm fully convinced there will be a satisfying resolution to this season's story, with some things left unanswered, just like season 1. I remember watching the end of season 1 thinking "if they never make another episode, I'm perfectly ok with this ending". I'm figuring the same thing for tonight
I'd say that's a reasonable expectation for tonight.
As for S3, I think this week's Golden Globes nominations are HBO's sticking point at the moment: the WGA nom for "International Assassin" was a good start, but if it gets some acknowledgment from a larger body it would give them reason to swallow the costs that goes beyond the critical notices.
Wouldn't that also go against their idea that people need to realize that "the world has ended"?
I talk about the show. By trying to make it about me (and nobody is forcing you to do that, really), you're derailing the thread.
There's nothing about negative criticism that magically prevents discussion. I'm entirely willing to discuss. I am discussing, even.
("Nah, you're not really discussing!" What, because I didn't change my mind? Does that somehow imply bad faith? Did you change your mind?)
And I think some people here have never said anything negative about the show. So what? That's immaterial.
Again, you're focusing on finding fault with the poster rather than with their arguments. And yes, that derails the thread.