Fluffhead14
Member
The point wasn't that they needed to DO something. It was to sully the last "pure" place on earth. To show the town that no one was spared.
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The Leftovers S2 |OT| We're Going To Texas - [Renewed for 3rd and final season]
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
dave is ok
aztek is ok
They probably tied him to a tree or buried him up to his neck in soil and threw sponges at him.
bodyofanamerican
Member
And to that end, Michael kind of beat them to it. He knew, and it's implied most of the town knew, that they weren't REALLY spared.
Fenderputty
Banned
She had asked Matt in the previous episode why he hadn't just taken what he wanted? Why he hadn't just gone back in. The mob could have advanced at any time but didn't as well. She then told him that they're all waiting for her. On top of wanting to dispel the illusion that the town was "safe" she also showed how silly it was for everyone to not just take it. The point of using the girls was to show that "safe" was relative. That even though no one just vanished, people still suffered.
You're being disingenuous about "one guy with a bolt cutter". He had an entire mob behind pushing through.
Can I just say the answer is "plot contrivance"? Because it really is. A bunch of people could vouch for him being a resident, but oh no, he got into an argument with the most powerful (fire)man in town.
And her bolt cutter.
And what better way than to bring those three "departed" girls back?
"It was all a prank, there are still no departures in Jarden, you guys!"
Well, thanks for pointing that out, Meg. I agree. It really is quite silly, considering how easy it turned out to be.
A point that they made to a whole bunch of people who clearly didn't care (or they would have stopped camping there a long time ago) and some security guards (who should already know, if they live in that town... unless they were high the whole time, I mean). And even then, that point was only made if that limited audience was paying close attention to the family drama that occurred when one of the girls' mothers showed up within the hour (something that Meg couldn't arrange, right?).
Again, it really sucks for that one guy who got stoned to death over this.
A situation the security should obviously have been prepared for, considering they had an entire village of weirdos desperately wanting to get into town for months/years.
I'm sorry, but it's just that ridiculous.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
It's not. Even weirdos will generally fall in line with authority, and it would take a group action from people willing to be hurt to do pull off Meg's plan; had any of them quavered when the guards pulled their batons it would have been the end of it. The "I may fall, but others will make it" motivation is extremely difficult to cultivate in any but the most devoted group.
Fenderputty
Banned
Matt's answer to why he didn't just go back was more complicated than just because of his argument with John. He was aiming to clear his name and prove he didn't rape his wife. He had faith she would come back while in the town and said he would return then.
It's a small town. They would have needed more than just their small police force to contain the mob if it ever mobilized. I believe herd mentality can explain why they didn't just advance. Meg was the one to break that mentality and the weirdos advanced with her.
The town wasn't safe. The same hurt people felt outside of the town existed inside regardless of the departures or lack there of. Using the girls illustrated that.
Well, I do find it pretty odd that it never occurred to those campers to pull something like that off (or that it never occurred to the security that that could happen, whichever). There clearly were a lot of desperate/crazy people in there, and I seem to remember the show implying "runners" were a fairly common occurrence.
It was more of a "just in case my name gets sullied (i.e. if John tells the rest of the town, and enough people react like him), I guess I'll just stay there", which just felt like yet another contrivance in en episode already filled with those.
It may be small, but it's also considered the most special place on Earth, to the point where some are apparently prepared to kill or die to get there, people are routinely checked for wristbands, etc.
Their police force shouldn't be that of "a small town".
I guess it could be a point somewhat worth making to people who don't live anywhere near there and never really thought about it ("huh, now that you mention it, it's only supposed to be special for its lack of departure, so everything else should be the same as anywhere else"), but aside from that...
I know the neighbor's son's speech made it look like the town itself somehow needed to be told as much, but I call bullshit on that.
How? To who? They only stood on that bridge for an hour or so, in front of a fairly limited audience.
In the end, what will the world remember?
* The girls hadn't departed, so Jarden's "miracle" still stands after all.
* It was another prank by the Guilty Remnants (the girls were members: "guess there are weirdos everywhere, even in Jarden"), who then proceeded to cause another riot.
* The town they targeted this time around was Jarden, which kinda makes sense considering how obsessed they are about the Departure... but then what? I imagine it could sound like an impressive feat ("Jarden? that one town that doesn't let outsiders in?")... if you don't know how easy it actually was to pull off. But that's about it. What message does that send aside from "those Guilty Remnants sure are some crazy motherfuckers"?
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Runners are people making an uncoordinated break for it. It's done impulsively and with the knowledge that prison will be the worst of their fears, along with some bruising when they get arrested. Swarming armed guards with a group large enough to overpower them carries a high potential for violence (as you've put the people with guns in a position where they're fearing for their safety), and can only be done by an organized group willing to take losses of some sort if violence erupts. That level of commitment is extremely difficult to get out of a group, where people are willing to accept the risk that they'll be the one to fall to overcome the odds.
Think of all the instances in history where just a few people with guns have been able to control dozens of people who could easily have overwhelmed the gunmen had they worked together but didn't (lol Ben Carson).
This would also be why the number of park rangers wouldn't be that high, as just the threat of violence is enough to hold back lots and lots of people. Once that overwhelming group gets through, though, actually using that violence to try to stop it would solve nothing and probably just get the guards killed.
(... especially if you cause a bomb scare right there beforehand *cough*)
I still think an organized "kamikaze" assault absolutely is something the security should have been prepared for (there were many religious lunatics in there, right?), but I'll agree that the Guilty Remnants' drone-like nature indeed worked in their favor.
... Their extremely convenient and hardly justified drone-like nature. :þ
Also, note that this discussion is now about how even a simplistic "let's open the door with a bolt cutter and swarm them" plan might still work. Can we agree that, after all that buildup, one would have expected a slightly better plan from Meg? Perhaps even one that wouldn't include a bomb scare that could only raise the security and the risks? One that would send a strong message to the world ("change everything" is what they said)?
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
I'll agree having a bomb scare for a full hour almost certainly would have precipitated a stronger police reaction including bomb squad and possibly SWAT from the county, which would have put a total end to the plan. Excluding them, there would be enough confusion following the countdown where things didn't blow up that a mess of people storming the gate would work just fine.
That said, meh, Meg's plan was not so bad that I would question its validity, more its presentation in the show. Had it been 10 minutes of bomb countdown police response would still be outside of town but it would have allowed for Evie's mom to get there. It doesn't really change the story and ultimately I'm not going to let it bother or taint my enjoyment of the scenes resulting from it.
As a hypothetical, and god dang it I'm going to be on an NSA watch-list for it, if five hundred people hopped over the fence of the white house and ran for the doors, there'd be a not insignificant amount of time before somebody gave an order to shoot ("what the fuck?" "How many?" "Do they have guns?" "Tell them to stop!" "Shoot shoot shoot!"), then another period of time while officers reacted ("did they really say to shoot these people?") before shooting actually commenced--if it even did. The majority of people would make it in the doors. So it could be done, but lots of people would have to be willing to die, and people just aren't ready for that.
I'm not endorsing or suggesting this, NSA, please don't tap my lines I don't want everybody at your offices knowing what porn I watch.
Fenderputty
Banned
No it wasn't. His name was going to be sullied when people noticed a bump regardless of what John did. Matt's faith that she would come back again while in the town was the reason he stayed out.
I feel like you don't get Matt's character because you've got a penchant for hammering plot minutia that annoys you.
Well, he could have taken care of his wife until then (or until she regained consciousness, which he apparently believed was going to happen) at the very least.
Also, he had already told a few people that she had briefly regained consciousness (see how he was prevented from elaborating regarding that when he gave that speech in the church), and not everybody is as quick as John to deny the possibility of such a "miracle" in that town, right? Especially among religious people, I'd think?
That she would wake up and testify that she was in fact conscious when they had sex, you mean? How is that the reason he stayed out?
I mean, you said that "he was aiming to clear his name and prove he didn't rape his wife", but him staying out of town won't help with that. The only thing that could prove he didn't rape his wife is his wife getting better and saying as much. He and we are led to believe she has to stay in town for that to happen? Fine, then she needs to stay in town. But why would he need to stay out of town? How would that prove anything?
Fenderputty
Banned
IIRC John wanted Matt to specifically say that he had a moment of weakness and not play up the spiritual aspects because john didn't believe it was possible (you know ... miracles and shit). Matt pushes back and asked John what happened to him. This sent John of the deep end. Matt's wife stayed in town because that's where her and the baby were safe, (with Matt's sister) while Matt waited for his faith to be vindicated outside the walls. The entire episode was Matt trying to get his wife back to where she was safe, where miracles happen.
Yes, I seem to remember that's how it went, indeed. And I still don't see a good reason for Matt to stay out of town.
(Hell, if anything, it makes it look like he's punishing himself.)
Fenderputty
Banned
I mean, he then went and took the place of a naked man having food thrown at him. The dude seems as selfless as they come. He felt he would be vindicated by God and wasn't going to push the issue as long as his wife and child were safe.
Fenderputty
Banned
No I just think he figured his wife was safe and in good hands and in a safe place. God wanted him elsewhere at the moment and when vindicated he would return. Why else go and take that man's spot?
EDIT: It could be what you just described though. The (can't think of the name) device that held Matt had "repent" written on it.
EDIT: It could be what you just described though. The (can't think of the name) device that held Matt had "repent" written on it.
Did he? I mean, he even got the wristbands back.
The way I remember it (it's been a little while, so correct me if I'm wrong):
Matt and his wife could get back in town (obviously, people could vouch for them being residents), just not right away, because they needed to be reissued wristbands or something like that (?).
Matt wanted to get back in town right away though, and John was supposed to help with that. But then they got into that argument, and John was like "nope, changed my mind, guess you'll just have to wait after all".
So Matt then tried to get back into town with the help of those weirdos (there was that amusing bit where he was asked to brutalize some guy, and "oh no, that goes against everything I believe, I could never... or not again, at least"), and in the end, he found (by chance) the guy who stole his and his wife's wristbands.
So at that point, he could have gone back in town with his wife, but nope.
I remember that when I watched that scene, it looked like Matt suddenly prioritized the idea of showing John how great a guy he really was. "I could go along with your story, but I'm choosing not to, just like I could get back in town right now, but I'm choosing not to. I'll be staying in that horrible place instead. Also, there, please take care of that child. Ah-ha! You thought I was a rapist, so I bet you didn't see that coming, huh?!"
I was like, "dude, what? are you staying out of town (and letting somebody else take care of your catatonic wife) just to make a point? just to win an argument with that one asshole?"
(and like said above, it's going to look like you're punishing yourself for something, so if you're concerned about what the townfolks might think of you, er...)
Don't ask me, I didn't write that stuff!
Repent for what though? Didn't he have faith that his wife did indeed briefly regain consciousness, and would again do so, in time to give birth?
I thought he let the kid take his place. So Mary got one wristband and the child got the other. The three of them couldn't get in? Maybe I'm wrong on that though.
Fenderputty
Banned
You are not. He did give the kid his wristband. Both of us forgot that.
But that's not how it works, is it? You can't just give whomever your wristband, and there you go, that person is now free to live there.
So it seems they agreed to take the kid in, yes, but that shouldn't keep Matt out. He had every right to go back, he just... chose not to?
Well not exactly. He couldn't get in without a wristband. And the child couldn't get in without a wristband. So in that moment at least one of them had to stay.
They never seemed to check the wristbands too closely. That child was probably ok for a while at least assuming John found somewhere for him. And John seems resourceful enough at that kind of stuff. And I imagine you might have a harder time evicting a child that was now living there than you would getting one in without a wristband.
The plan might not have held up long term admittedly. But it wasn't a super calculated move on Matts part either.
Not for cursory, routine checks, no. Which, I guess, is why the kid's father decided to steal those: they can have their use, in some cases. If they got their names checked, I don't imagine stolen wristbands would do them any good though.
That scene at the end of the episode wasn't a cursory, routine check. I can't imagine they'd take the kid in (and take care of him now that he's an orphan) just because he had a wristband and without actually checking his identity. Surely, everybody knew (or could easily check) what was going on, and that those wristbands were Matt and his wife's?
Heh. I guess John can do pretty much anything he wants, in that town...
...
So they wouldn't have taken care of the kid, had Matt decided to go back? It had to be a trade-off?
Silly me, I thought they'd taken him in because he was an orphan in distress. Those people (or was it just John?) are the worst.
Cornballer
Member
bodyofanamerican
Member
WELP. Thanks for nothing, Golden Globes.
Kadayi
Banned
Indeed. Go Home Golden Globes, You're drunk.
backflip10019
Member
RENEWED FOR SEASON 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fucking thank god!
http://link.hollywoodreporter.com/c...WwtODQ1NzI0/5230c802191b2a646d8c0eafB3cc15667
Fucking thank god!
http://link.hollywoodreporter.com/c...WwtODQ1NzI0/5230c802191b2a646d8c0eafB3cc15667
Calling it now, next season will take place in
Perth, Australia
Bits N Pieces
Member
Fantastic news! 
Expecting great great things from the final season of what might actually push The Wire off of my number 1 show ever.
Expecting great great things from the final season of what might actually push The Wire off of my number 1 show ever.
backflip10019
Member
Absolutely, get on that shit. People say S1 was uneven, and while I can kinda agree, I was captivated from start to finish. S2 blows everything else out of the water though.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Watched the season finale today.
What a wonderful season. Series is very much underrated at this point. Glad it got renewed for a third season. And damn, his body is perfect.
What a wonderful season. Series is very much underrated at this point. Glad it got renewed for a third season. And damn, his body is perfect.
Skinny Pete
Banned
Awesome news. I would of been ok with the ending of 2 being the finale but I'm excited to see what will happen next. I'm guessing Meg will play a large part next season though.
bodyofanamerican
Member
That it's Damon's decision to end it, and that it seems like he knows where he's going with it, is awesome. Can't wait.
Its the best way also. Loved that also about the Newsroom.
This is SOOOO much more exciting than if it was given an indefinite renewal like Lost. When shows have a defined end they are generally much improved.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Lost has a defined end and still fucked it up
I really like Lost. I even really liked the ending. So, I am still super excited for this.