He does have a point. Aang didn't use his past lives as much as he could have.
The Legend of Korra: Book Two Spirits |OT| Korra Ain't Number Wan
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He does have a point. Aang didn't use his past lives as much as he could have.
unknownstranger
Member
It kind of kills the chance of something like Beginnings again though.
In the hypothetical situation that we did get another flashback to a past life, there would be some fans that inevitably say 'it was not as good as Wan/Aang'.
We've received one great flashback per season, if we get another good one in book 3 I will be surprised. But Korra might be a more interesting character with how she defines the Avatar without spirit Aang and Wan passing judgement over her.
We've received one great flashback per season, if we get another good one in book 3 I will be surprised. But Korra might be a more interesting character with how she defines the Avatar without spirit Aang and Wan passing judgement over her.
There's always the spirit tree thing.
If you actually knew how to write romantic relationships that were fun and interesting instead of abusive, overly dramatic, sad affairs, I know I would be on board.
I loved the romantic elements in TLA. I love Korra and Bolin's little thing from season one. I was even on board with Mako and Asami in the beginning. All the other romance in this show has been shit and that's why I don't like it.
Pretty much.
Overall, the romances of TLA may have been one of the weaker elements of the show. Both of Sokka's relationships with Suki and Yue were pretty shallow, they both fall in love with him after one day. I could believe that they got together in one day, but real love doesn't happen that quick, lol. Zuko and Mai felt similarly shallow at first, but that may have actually fit their characters, since they have difficulty bringing emotions to the frontlines. Also, they were in a relationship before the show started, so they have more of a history anyway. I think Zuko-Mai may have been one of the better ones, now that I think about it. Toph and Ty Lee just had crushes, which were amusing, but passed quickly, so those were mostly played for laughs. JIn from that one episode was likewise. Azula's only attempt at romance was out of insecurity, but again, fits her character.
Katara and Aang are very well done however. That their love starts from the very beginning of the series and doesn't end until it's end means that it had a lot of time to grow. But rather than putting them in tons of situations that would push them into a relationship and then backing off to extend it, what they did was make them a family first. This makes sense from both Aang's nomadic culture's definition of family and Katara's motherly nature. Which is why I think when Aang saw that baby being born and finally came out of his depression from the absence of Appa, that's the moment he fell in love with Katara for real. Their relationship was very organic, very well done.
In comparison, the loves in Korra are entirely based on infatuation. I feel even Sokka's relationships were more mature than Korra's because atleast they had them falling in love because they came to love each other as people, it just happened too quickly to be entirely believable. The only thing we know Korra likes Mako for is that he is handsome and his skills as a firebender. Bolin initially liked Korra for her looks, and maybe also they had fun on their date, but that died quickly because Korra does not care about personality compatibility, apparently. Asami liked Mako for his looks and then in season 2 because of severe emotional vulnerability (You are a fucking douchebag, Mako. A goddamn piece of shit.). Mako liked Asami for her looks and Korra because....actually, to this very day, we have no idea, because he just randomly started liking her in one episode after being uninterested in the previous one. He just does. Desna loved Bolin because she is sadistic and Bolin loved Desna.....again, no idea. He just randomly does. Bolin also likes Ginger for her looks, enough to sexually assualt her for them (Douchiness is apparently genetic). We don't know anything about Tenzin's relationships with either Pema or Lin.
I still laugh when people say Korra's romance is more mature. Does Korra have ANYTHING over TLA?
Edit: As to what he is saying, he's right. First off, imagination is far more potent than anything anyone can put on screen, so they are imagining perfect moments with the characters of their choice. Another part of that is that it's fun imagining 'what if' scenerios, including romance, since there is a lot of emotion involved if you are willing to involve yourself with. And not just that, but story potential. My personal favorite crackship in TLA is Azula-Aang, especially post-ending. Not because I really want those two characters to bone, but because there is narrative potential there. One thing Azula desperately needs in her life is unconditional love, which she refused from her mother when she was younger and never got it from her father or brother and distanced herself from her friends and now is in a position where she burned her bridges and there is no one there for her. I can't think of anyone but Aang who would have enough patience and desire to heal her. Maybe Iroh, but I doubt Azula would be particularly reciprocal of him, since he is a family traitor to her, compared to Aang who she viewed as an enemy of a much more nuetral nature. They just happened to be on opposite sides. There is no personal hate involved. And given that they're views are diametrically opposed (Power obsession vs detachment, selfishness vs selflessness, cruelty vs kindness), their interactions would be fascinating to watch. I'm okay with it not happening, but I feel this is an example of good shipping and I've seen it well done in fanfics. It doesn't even necessarily have to be romantic, but with the kind of intimacy that would most likely result from Aang personally going out of his way to help Azula, it just feels like the next natural step. But my point is shipping can be pretty awesome, you just need to understand the CHARACTER'S attraction and reason for being with each other, not just "Ooh, azula be a hot bitch, I'm ditching Katara to hit dat ass! Mmmm, Flameo!"
Animation quality and squandered potential?
Yes, what I liked about ATLA's handling of relationships, like its characters, is in their diversity. You've got the soulmate/deep connection one with Katara and Aang,
Sokka and Suki just seem to have fun together (really, who doesn't have fun with Sokka?), and then an unusual one in Mai and Zuko where they complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. Each relationship is distinctly different, befitting their individual personalities and their wants and needs. You can understand why they are together. (As an aside, I think I wrote about a bit about the moment you mentioned about Aang falling in love love. Spooky)
In Korra, it's just all hormonal bullshit. I really think they were going for the teenage idiocy angle, but there's got to be something more than that for people to care because they are pretty damn unlikeable in the first place. Their throwing around of the term love was just insulting and completely unearned. Sokka never even says he loves any of them AFAIK, more cared about a lot.
Did you write about it in your blog? If so, either that or this post is probably where I got that from. I don't mean to steal, it's just that all the posts/review's/analysis of TLA start to blend after a while and all I can recall with is the ideas they gave. I agreed with your idea of the moment where they fell in love and just advocate the same when the topic comes up.
It's odd just how disappointing this has been. They brought the stakes as high as they could go and yet watching that left me cold.
Even The Drill episode from A:TLA left a better impression. The stakes there weren't that high; it's a (giant) drill drilling into a wall. Yet everything about it, the buildup and payoff, felt so much more fulfilling.
Feh. Time to wait to see if the next season ends up being better. ...Deja vu.
"Oh, that's the fog of lost souls and those butterflies that randomly landed around us are magic and teleport you and Rava can be pulled out of your esophagus and this is the tree of time and now you're a dimension-ripping giant blue jolly rancher." No buildup, instant payoff, everything works out and you knew it would from the first time they showed they don't bother with consequences. Crossroads of Destiny it was not.
Even The Drill episode from A:TLA left a better impression. The stakes there weren't that high; it's a (giant) drill drilling into a wall. Yet everything about it, the buildup and payoff, felt so much more fulfilling.
Feh. Time to wait to see if the next season ends up being better. ...Deja vu.
Imagination will always win out with things like this, but I feel like shoving the blame for how unappealing the romance plots on to fans' wants getting in the way is taking the easy way out.
Every single relationship in this show is just awful. There is nothing to root for. My imagination isn't the problem here. Hell, my imagination wanted Bolin and Korra to be together, and that was after the show itself revealed how well they complement each other. Of course, now that I've seen Korra be an abusive dickhead and Bolin force himself on a woman, I don't even want that anymore. :/
Every single relationship in this show is just awful. There is nothing to root for. My imagination isn't the problem here. Hell, my imagination wanted Bolin and Korra to be together, and that was after the show itself revealed how well they complement each other. Of course, now that I've seen Korra be an abusive dickhead and Bolin force himself on a woman, I don't even want that anymore. :/
TacticalFox88
Banned
I'll believe it when I see it. S1 was heavily criticized for its dumb as rocks romance plot, and yet S2 they double down on the fucking stupid shit.
I expect S3 to return to the status quo.
No worries, I just remembered it from the old GAF ATLA thread when you mentioned it. Posted way too much in that one lol.
The Drill was fucking awesome: great fight scenes, great climax, god-tier comedy (Oh no what a nightmare!), character development with Sokka (ideas guy!)
As an aside, that's what kills me: that I can remember the Drill in its entirety years after I saw it, and I can't remember what happened where with most of this season.
Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, he's shifting the blame so that he doesn't have to admit (either publically or to himself) that he fucked up by saying "Well, no one seems happy with it, so I must have misinterpreted the mechanics of the fanbase. It can't be that I failed as a writer, nope."
I think the bolin-korra thing show how little importance they regard personalities with, which, in retrospect, should have been another sign of what was to come.
Edit:
Out of curiousity, who is it that you guys think is the worst of the lot?
For me, it's Mako. Funny enough, I didn't hate him as much in season 1 as most, since he atleast seemed to do it out of genuine emotional confusion and didn't actually cheat which was a point that many seemed to have missed. But the way he emotionally exploited Asami in her most vulnerable moment and then went back to Korra in front of her face....The abusive stuff, that's played for laughs and the characters inuniverse are clearly unaffacted by it the way real people would. Don't get me wrong. It's still bad and shouldn't have been done for the message it sends out, but inuniverse, that wasn't truly hurting anyone. Even Bolin, who was genuinely suffering, was doing so comedically and therefore not permanently. He got over it as soon as he got away from her.. Likewise with the Bolin sexual assault. In-universe, no harm was being done. But Mako betraying Asami like that, knowing in how much pain she is, just so he doesn't have to face some awkwardness? That shit was just vile. The look on Asami's face as it happened was probably the only time LoK emotionally affected me. And it wasn't a good feeling. And the fucker got away with it! Asami doesn't even get a speaking role after that except some battlefield commentary. God fucking dammit. All the other shit is really stupid, but Mako is the only one who deliberately hurt his partner for no other reason than to benefit himself over a girlfriend he already broke up with. Even Desna or Eska or whatever, even she thought she was being genuinely affectionate in her own fucked up way. Korra had no idea she is being abusive. Bolin is too stupid to tie his own shoes, let alone know what sexual assault is. Mako knew exactly what he was doing, who he was doing it to, and did it anyway. That elevates his betrayal to another level for me.
Honestly, after this, I said before that just personal emotional suffering is a poor motivation for the villain as a general rule, but after what Asami has been through and considering the characters of the other members of team avatar, I am going to be rooting for her all the way if she is next seasons villain.
unknownstranger
Member
Mako was fine to me until about halfway through the season. Korra was the oppisite. Unalaq being generically evil is probably what annoyed me the most this season. At least Amon had a semi-valid reason until it got revealed who he was.
I meant who you did you guys think was the worst romantic partner, as a person. What mako did goes beyond what I personally felt about it. It was just flat out malicious and deliberately hurtful of a girl who is pretty much suffering more than any of them. Just from an ethical perspective, without getting my personal hatred for such cruelty in it, it seems like the worst action to me.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Asami as villain? You know what? Fuck it. Do it, Mike. You can't make me think less of this show than I already do.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Bolin, because he really does add little/almost nothing to the show. If Bolin is removed it would be like nothing happened. He has zero consequence on anything. The writers obviously tried to make another Sokka, but Bolin is just comic relief with nothing going for him. I think that Bolin's vcharacter fails even at being comic relief. Ar least Sokka was strategist and contribute massively to the plot. Bolin is just there.
We already talked about how Asami had potential as a reverse Zuko. That potential has been squandered by now, but if Asami bitchslaps Korra, Mako and Bolin, atleast I can see characters I hate suffer at the one character I like in the show.
Ah, I'd say Asami then. I don't think Mako was trying to hurt anyone or anything, it was just bad writing to me. The writers were obviously trying to create some sort of love-triangle conflict, but they lost interest or ran our of time and dropped the whole Mako-Asami reunion bullshit as soon as Korra came back. If I was taking this whole teen romance drama shit seriously, I'd say Asami shares as much blame as Mako since he only recently broke up with Korra but immediately begins some secret romance with him.
There are so many ways to interpret it, so I think the best way to look at it is to ignore it and pretend like it never happened.
Man, I miss Sokka.
TacticalFox88
Banned
And according to Mike and co, she and Korra's relationship will be explored as "BFFs" next season.
Which is again shitting on her character. Why the fuck would she want to associate with these people that have CONSISTENTLY fucked her over emotionally and physically? What is Asami to gain by being friends with Korra?
Really? Asami? But she just....
You know what, okay. Agree to disagree.
I'd say advertising, but it doesn't seem she even exploits that angle. Her friendship with Korra is seperate from everything about her except Mako.
Yeah that Asami was horrible. The way she took Mako and her brother off the streets, supported her boyfriend's sports team, betrayed her father to join Team Avatar, and bared no grudges when her boyfriend ignored and eventually dumped her for Korra. She goes back to him when her life is at literally its lowest point, and then watches as Mako dumps and ignores her again because he's a fucking coward.
That Asami, man. That girl is poison.
I got to agree that it's Mako. They're all terrible, but the way Mako just jumps between Korra and Asami with next to no care for their feelings - particularly Asami's - is just gross.
The worst part is that the characters never bother to call each other on their shit. They do these horrible, abusive things to one other, and no one ever brings it up. Korra and Mako deciding to finally end it was the most emotionally mature thing to happen with any of these relationships (and even then, they did some "I will always love you" shit. Which, considering how their relationship was, I'm amazed they still like each other. lol).
That Asami, man. That girl is poison.
I got to agree that it's Mako. They're all terrible, but the way Mako just jumps between Korra and Asami with next to no care for their feelings - particularly Asami's - is just gross.
The worst part is that the characters never bother to call each other on their shit. They do these horrible, abusive things to one other, and no one ever brings it up. Korra and Mako deciding to finally end it was the most emotionally mature thing to happen with any of these relationships (and even then, they did some "I will always love you" shit. Which, considering how their relationship was, I'm amazed they still like each other. lol).
Yeah, maybe this is my own inexperience speaking, but I didn't get that one at all.
If they still like each other and have forgiven each other, why are they breaking up? It's not like that first break up did some permanent damage they can't get over despite their feelings. They just broke up in the heat of the moment, but since they're over it now...?
TacticalFox88
Banned
Yup. That's exactly why them breaking up rubbed me the wrong, because at least the status quo at its core makes more sense (however little) than them breaking up.
"I love you."
"I love you too."
"It's over though."
"....K"
What? It'd be one thing if there was build up and credible reasons why they broke up, but just cutting off all ties, because you realise you can't write a decent romance makes it come off even worse.
Well, in terms of relationships, Mako and Asami are tied. Just a couple of horny teenagers to be honest. Mako actually contributes to the show which is why I picked Asami. After season 2, Asami's role in the show has been to add more romance bs into the story, which is a shame. Other than her initial romance with Mako, she did have some good scenes in season 1 and 2.
Like I said, Asami's character was good in season 1 and 2 but all of this ^, this to me is just lazy writing. As far as I'm concerned, none of this crap actually happened. Unless they stop using Asami as some controversial romance plot device, her character is completely irrelevant to me.
I took it as they're not over it, recognized that there are some serious problems in their relationship, and rather then trying to force this to work, it's better to end it while they still look at each other fondly.
This is why I called it emotionally mature; where normally this show sweeps the bad actions of its characters under the rug, here we have two characters actually acknowledging past mistakes and making a decision based not on what they want to happen, but what needs to happen. When they broke up, Korra had shown up to Mako's place of work and acted a damn fool, going so far as to whip his desk across the room. And on Mako's part, he lied to Korra's face about the breakup to cover his own ass. Korra's shown herself to be abusive and needlessly confrontational, and Mako's shown himself to be a liar and, as his treatment of Asami shows, totally willing to ignore the feelings of others to save himself.
These two people do not need to be in a relationship with each other, and it was good on the show to just have them admit that and break up.
Actually, I just realized this may be the writers' way of ending the romance sub-plot once and for all. With Asami, they just completely ignored it and with Korra, they had a breakup scene. The Eska-Bolin thing ended as well so I really hope this is the case.
They really need to work on the Team Avatar dynamics. I don't buy these kids as a Team. I don't even buy them as friends. This whole season just piled on reasons why I think it may be time for all of them to consider finding new people to hang with. They all abandon and ignore each other at pretty much the drop of a hat.
I mean, it's obviously that too, but I also think it's a good moment for the characters.
I mean, it's obviously that too, but I also think it's a good moment for the characters.
Good interpretation. The only problem with it is that it's wildly out of character, lol
unknownstranger
Member
Mako should have almost no role in Season 3 from the little I've heard about it so far.
Out of character not just for Mako and Korra, but for the show in general. "Two characters maturely dealing with past mistakes? Unheard of!" lol
Dominican Power
Member
I hate that she lost all her connection to the previous avatars. That was so lame.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Veelk, I have a question for you specifically, since you seem to have a good grasp of potential this universe had.
The Love-Triangle between Korra, Mako, and Asami. If the writers decided to do a more subtle approach in handling the tension, wanting, feelings, etc before concluding it one way or the other, how would you have felt would be the best way to do so without the romance being in-your face, yet ambiguous and open to (reasonable) interpretation.
The Love-Triangle between Korra, Mako, and Asami. If the writers decided to do a more subtle approach in handling the tension, wanting, feelings, etc before concluding it one way or the other, how would you have felt would be the best way to do so without the romance being in-your face, yet ambiguous and open to (reasonable) interpretation.
I have some thoughts on Book Two I want to write down, but not until tomorrow or Monday. So I'll just post a Wall of Shame instead!
I had fun doing the OT for this. I hope none of you thought it was too lousy a job, because I've thrown my name in for Book Three. If anyone wants to help on that front, I'd be happy to take assistance.
Last night was the finale, but it was released a week early on Nick.com. We have to wait for Book Three now.
I had fun doing the OT for this. I hope none of you thought it was too lousy a job, because I've thrown my name in for Book Three. If anyone wants to help on that front, I'd be happy to take assistance.
Last night was the finale, but it was released a week early on Nick.com. We have to wait for Book Three now.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wow, they were seriously "fine" with the relationships until they heard the negativity? Were they in ATLA?
The main problem was that they rushed the romance in season 1 and made it as shallow as any typical fluffy teen drama in season 2. But this is a problem with many shows. Seems they can't provide a simple relationship without some sort of discourse, misunderstanding, or love triangle trope.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Aang's romance in ATLA was also terrible. I mean, does Aang even have pubic hair? What's he doing being in 'love' when he's a little kid?
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I was fine with the romance plot in ATLA because they didn't beat you over the head with it. It was clear early on that Aang kinda liked Katara but it wasn't the defining characteristic of their relationship. It went much deeper than that. And when they finally came together at the end it actually meant something because of all they went through together.
Korra and Mako feels as shallow and rushed as it is. I would have been open to it if it was something that developed over the seasons but like most other things in the show, they don't give it room to breathe. Every time the two characters were on screen together I lost interest because it involved their love life 90% of the time.
Korra and Mako feels as shallow and rushed as it is. I would have been open to it if it was something that developed over the seasons but like most other things in the show, they don't give it room to breathe. Every time the two characters were on screen together I lost interest because it involved their love life 90% of the time.
Dominican Power
Member
They rushed the romance just like they rushed the story in season one because they believed it was a one shot deal.
the avatar shipper's obsession with the relationships of characters in their young teens is weird, but don't tell them or they'll just get mad again
So glad to hear that they're done with this.
Romance was in ATLA but it was way more subtle and it wasn't a huge deal like it is in Korra.
First time I ever got on one of these. Cool.
I'm flattered, thank you.
But as for your request.....hard to say exactly. Partially because romantic relationships are one of the trickiest aspects to write. Partially because LoK doesn't give me much to work with. Like Bork and I said before, it's all shallow infatuation and hormones. That's an acceptable starting point, but where do we take it afterwards? In the context of the plot of S1 as it is, it's very hard for me to say.
Korra and Mako don't have great chemistry, I don't even know if they like the same things besides probending (which I don't think Mako even likes so much as he sees it as a way to make money, given that he quit and never looked back), and there is nothing in which they can really help each other with (Mako can't really teach Korra much about airbending or fighting Amon and Mako's only problems are financial). The one time they tried to have an intimate moment (when bolin was missing), Korra listened to his backstory, but she couldn't relate or help with it at all, just giving him a generic 'I'm so sorry". So, I've been trying to write down suggestions for the past 20 minutes, but they all involve basically rewriting great portions of Korra and Mako's personalities and characters. You ask me if the writers of LoK had been more aware of the actual characters, how would the romance have worked out? They wouldn't have, is my answer. Mako and Korra have nothing to offer each other. Not even fun. Korra seemed to enjoy herself more on her date with Bolin or riding around with Asami than any moment she had with Mako that I can recall. The characters as they are have no means by which to get closer and create a deeper, more meaningful relationship. They could happen if the writer would develop their characters to include something like that, but that would require the story to be different as a whole, with major plot or backstory changes to accomodate the character changes.
Asami and Mako have more going on for each other in comparison. In essence, Mako is a gold digger. Which isn't to say that he is using (or atleast abusing) Asami's feelings for him, but have you ever been poor? Starving on the streets? Working your ass off just to live? And here comes in Asami, rich and beautiful and kind, willing to take you in and help you financially as much as needed. Only an idiot would refuse that, whether he liked the girl or not. That Asami is as kind and gorgeous as she is would just be winning two lotteries at once. Meanwhile, Asami's feelings for Mako start off at a similarly shallow place. She wants to date a hot sports star. Her flaw can be that she is somewhat naive and part of her courting ritual is throwing money to get Mako to like her. Again, it's not that she wants to buy his feelings, but it's just how she deals with most of her problems, so it's a natural response on her part. And not even the wrong one since what Mako and Bolin do need is money for their team. This can lead to her having some insecurity about whether Mako likes her for her or her fortune. But they do have fun and enjoy each others company on dates, like at the restaurant, and open up to each other, such as sharing their experiences of losing their parents. They've opened up to each other on an intimate level that means something. The turning point of their relationship would be when the Hiroshi reveal happens. When she has no more money to offer him, what will Mako do? I doubt he would abandon her, if only out of basic human decency, but is that genuine faithfulness to her? From this point on, the relationship would have to be written differently from the show. Even if it fails, I think it would say more about the characters and have greater impact than Mako simply finding an ass he likes to smang more.
But do you see what I mean? I managed to get as far as episode 7 without really changing Mako and Asami's basic characters. With Mako and Korra, I'd have to change their basic characters just to get them started. Korra and Bolin would be easier because atleast they would have a Sokka-Suki sort of relationship where they just have fun together.
Asami and Korra might have some potential as well. Amon and Hiroshi worked together, so they have a common enemy in them and could relate to each other a lot in stopping them. For most of the cast, the equalists are just enemies of the state, but Korra has a vested interest in stopping amon that is internal (her worth as the avatar) and Asami is now opposing her terrorist father. They are the only ones for which the conflict is personal. Besides that, they are both adreneline junkies in their own way, Korra with bending and Asami with race cars. I could see them having a friendly competitive nature. That could even include Mako, where they basically struggle in a tug of war to get him to fall for them. That might be a bit mean to Mako, since they are just using his feelings to see which of them is better at seduction, but I have little sympathy for him as he is. My point is, it's very easy for me to imagine them having fun together. At one point, Korra was somehwat intrigued by make up, so she could have Asami help her be more feminine while Asami could easily be made to want to learn martial arts without having to rely on technology, which Korra can help with. Korra and Asami have a severely underdeveloped relationship for how well their personality dynamics interact. Nick would never have the balls to do a lesbian relationship in this era, but even they have more potential in their friendship than Mako and Korra do in their romance. Besides, they need to make the bonds between Team Avatar seem more genuine than they are, because right now, I have no idea why Asami wants anything to do with Mako or Korra.
Hope that helps.
I'm pretty much 100% with BBGH. I wanted to like it. I defended it all the way through Beginnings, which I thought was pretty good. Beginnings was the point when I said "AHA! I told you guys it would get better!". Then the episodes did get a little better. Just a little bit. Not great by any means, but serviceable. And them BAM! Bluorra and Jinora Christ.
It was at this point I too said, "fuck it, I'm done defending this", and my tower of hope came crumbling down.
It's such a shame. I love the world they've built in Korra, it just sucks the stories they're telling are bad. And it's mainly season 2. I actually loved 97% of season 1, barring the ending which was a little too quick.
Arg.
It was at this point I too said, "fuck it, I'm done defending this", and my tower of hope came crumbling down.
It's such a shame. I love the world they've built in Korra, it just sucks the stories they're telling are bad. And it's mainly season 2. I actually loved 97% of season 1, barring the ending which was a little too quick.
Arg.
Zing! Yeowch.
I was also thinking: The Legend of Korra: Book Three - Change |OT| When We Hit Our Lowest Point...
This is great.
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