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[AniHawk]

Really wish the game would have had some sort of tunic progression system. I don't like looking exactly the same at the outset of my adventure as I do at the end.

i think one of the rewards for a special quest could have been the chain mail underneath your clothes. then you would take less damage. maybe the end area of the game would have enemies that dealt huge amounts of damage or something

 

[MechaX]

Kina from the Lumpy Pumpkin is way cuter, dude.

When considering that Link is essentially an Indentured Servant for that place, I make it a habit to avoid that place as much as possible.

And screw that girl and her pumpkin carrying challenges.

 

[Regulus Tera]

When considering that Link is essentially an Indentured Servant for that place, I make it a habit to avoid that place as much as possible.

And screw that girl and her pumpkin carrying challenges.

I got two heart pieces from there, I can't complain.

Plus she has a lovely voice.

 

[Anth0ny]

so having a day to reflect (A WHOLE DAY!) and i think i'd place the current order of the 3d games like this:

tp
ss
mm
oot
tww

i haven't played tww in 7 years, but everything else is something i've replayed in the last five years, so it's a bit fresher in my mind. oot was an awesome, awesome huge awesome game in 1998. in 2011 it's small and extremely simple. it still has the best pacing of the 3d games, but i can't take anyone serious when they say the forest temple is currently one of the best dungeons in the series.

mm only has one great dungeon, and the majority of the game's worth comes from its sidequests. twilight princess is more uneven than skyward sword, but i found the puzzles consistently very good. skyward sword suffers from the same problem super mario galaxy had: uninteresting hub world you can fly around in, and it's super easy for the most part of the game, but the later parts are a lot better and what the game should have started out as.

the most disappointing thing about skyward sword is that it's destined to be a one-off for the series. i would love nintendo to revisit motion controls like these in a sequel, and add some complexity to the puzzles, but i think it's pretty obvious the tablet will be what they use to make the next one. on the plus side, we'll probably have the return of the dungeony overworld and orchestrated music. not to mention some sort of cel-shading with a diffferent art style.

zelda is about more than just dungeons and puzzles GOSH

mm>oot>ss>ww>tp

 

[AniHawk]

zelda is about more than just dungeons and puzzles GOSH

mm>oot>ss>ww>tp

it's also about exploration and adventure, which i think ss lacked. with oot's world so fucking small, there's not much to it anymore, but it's at least more coherent than whatever was in tww.

mm forces you through four dungeons to beat the game. that's fine. unfortunately, 75% of them are a waste of time.

 

[shadyspace]

i think one of the rewards for a special quest could have been the chain mail underneath your clothes. then you would take less damage. maybe the end area of the game would have enemies that dealt huge amounts of damage or something

It would have been cool if the end result was the classic green tunic.

 

[Anth0ny]

it's also about exploration and adventure, which i think ss lacked. with oot's world so fucking small, there's not much to it anymore, but it's at least more coherent than whatever was in tww.

mm forces you through four dungeons to beat the game. that's fine. unfortunately, 75% of them are a waste of time.

Really? Woodfall is nothing special, but I always thought Snowhead and Great Bay were very good, and Stone Tower was great.

As for OOT's world being small, this is true, but it's very dense at the same time. It is also multiplied by 2 thanks to time travel. I found it far more interesting to explore than Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Bigger is not always better.

 

[AniHawk]

Really? Woodfall is nothing special, but I always thought Snowhead and Great Bay were very good, and Stone Tower was great.

snowhead's all right, though bit on the short side. great bay is a water level with a shitty boss fight.

stone tower is excellent. i want to see that sort of thinking again.

Spoiler

actually, the final dungeon in ss was good this way

As for OOT's world being small, this is true, but it's very dense at the same time. It is also multiplied by 2 thanks to time travel. I found it far more interesting to explore than Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Bigger is not always better.

i thought there were more caves and secret areas to explore in tp than oot. also, when i say small, i also refer to the dungeons. tp's are grander in scale as well as design.

 

[RagnarokX]

I never get this complaint (and see it everywhere). Was every game before this generation garbage because of the hardware? Is it not possible to make great games and innovate because of the hardware instead of just throwing everything in to make the game 'bigger'?

The rest of the complaints read like they have either never played a Zelda game before or have never played ANY game before and are terrible.

Well it's funny because they rag on SS for being held back by hardware, and then hold up OoT as the ideal. SS basically has everything OoT had, but a lot bigger and more fun. The environments are bigger, but more densely packed with interesting things. The only trope that OoT has that SS doesn't is

Spoiler

an ice area, but the Ice Cave was barely there anyway.

 

[Instro]

Just finished up the 3rd dungeon. That was pretty amazing, best one thus far. Loved the dungeon item as well, pretty fun to use.

 

[decoyplatypus]

oot was an awesome, awesome huge awesome game in 1998. in 2011 it's small and extremely simple. it still has the best pacing of the 3d games, but i can't take anyone serious when they say the forest temple is currently one of the best dungeons in the series.

OoT isn't that small. You've got nine dungeons and a fair number of sidequests. Between Skulltulas, Poes, trading quest, Biggoron's Sword, and fishing, there's at least as much to do outside of the main quest as in SS. Even if OoT were smaller, complaints about "padding" in SS (though I know you don't join in that particular line of criticism) suggest that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

"Simple," I don't see at all. The fundamental gameplay mechanics are the same as they've been in every 3D game. You've got a similar array of items to learn, puzzles to solve (is the water temple now simple?), and bosses to defeat. It's a harder game than the recent Zeldas. Not hard for experienced gamers, maybe, but I forced two friends to play it for the first time last year, and I can tell you that they struggled much more in Ocarina than WW or TP.

I'm not sure I understand your knock on the Forest Temple. The dungeon itself hasn't gotten any worse since 1998. MM had exactly one dungeon that was in the same league. WW had zero. TP had several good ones, so maybe that bumps it out of the top three for the 3D games. I liked SS's dungeons well enough, but they were too short and simple to compete with the series' best. I can't remember pausing for more than thirty seconds to figure out a puzzle.

 

[Red]

Kina from the Lumpy Pumpkin is way cuter, dude.

Yes or no?

I need to know. I just paid Beedle 800 rupees and immediately found a Life Medal in a chest. I feel infuriated.

Aren't both life medals required to get 20 hearts though? I have searched high and low and can't find anymore heart pieces. I'm at 18 total hearts.

 

[Muskweeto]

I loved those caves. And the Cave of Ordeals. They should definitely return.

I'm pretty disappointed there's no Cave of ordeals type place, I thought it was going to be a series regular after seeing on in both The Wind Waker an Twilight Princess.
It would have been a great opportunity for the game to throw everything it had at you and make a real challenge without Nintendo having to worry about the less experienced gamer not being able to beat the game.

 

[Hobbestetrician]

Just finished up the 3rd dungeon. That was pretty amazing, best one thus far. Loved the dungeon item as well, pretty fun to use.

Exactly where I am. Love that item so much, so fun to use. Usually don't like the desert areas as much but really enjoyed it this time around.

Well it's funny because they rag on SS for being held back by hardware, and then hold up OoT as the ideal. SS basically has everything OoT had, but a lot bigger and more fun. The environments are bigger, but more densely packed with interesting things. The only trope that OoT has that SS doesn't is

Spoiler

an ice area, but the Ice Cave was barely there anyway.

"Nintendo makes the same game over and over again!" "Eh, this new game isn't as good as the old one, it should be more like that."

 

[Red]

Thank you to the dude who told me how to easily beat

Spoiler

The Imprisoned

on the last page. One of my few complaints was how god-awful that fight was, and your method made it far more enjoyable.

I think the game does a poor job telegraphing the "right" way to handle that encounter. Like, you're told to do the completely wrong thing, that makes it way more difficult than it has to be.

 

[AniHawk]

OoT isn't that small. You've got nine dungeons and a fair number of sidequests. Between Skulltulas, Poes, trading quest, Biggoron's Sword, and fishing, there's at least as much to do outside of the main quest as in SS. Even if OoT were smaller, complaints about "padding" in SS (though I know you don't join in that particular line of criticism) suggest that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

oot3d took me 15-16 hours at the time, so that's pretty good for a 13 year old game. the pacing is great and there is a lot to do. in terms of size, it's small. aside from the spirit temple and the shadow temple, a lot of the rooms feel tiny and closed in.

"Simple," I don't see at all. The fundamental gameplay mechanics are the same as they've been in every 3D game. You've got a similar array of items to learn, puzzles to solve (is the water temple now simple?), and bosses to defeat. It's a harder game than the recent Zeldas. Not hard for experienced gamers, maybe, but I forced two friends to play it for the first time last year, and I can tell you that they struggled much more in Ocarina than WW or TP.

oot's puzzles are all about the most basic things to do in 3d space. in 1998, this was extremely brand new, and about as far as anyone ever went with designing an action-adventure game in 3d. now, there are more complex puzzles, better aesthetics, and a larger scale.

I'm not sure I understand your knock on the Forest Temple. The dungeon itself hasn't gotten any worse since 1998. MM had exactly one dungeon that was in the same league. WW had zero. TP had several good ones, so maybe that bumps it out of the top three for the 3D games. I liked SS's dungeons well enough, but they were too short and simple to compete with the series' best. I can't remember pausing for more than thirty seconds to figure out a puzzle.

a lot of the forest temple's stuff is: hookshot to this thing. shoot into this eye. push block into place in the time limit. the twisty hallway is the one thing i still take away from the temple, but i don't think it stacks up to the first dungeon of tww (from what i can remember).

 

[decoyplatypus]

Thank you to the dude who told me how to easily beat

Spoiler

The Imprisoned

on the last page. One of my few complaints was how god-awful that fight was, and your method made it far more enjoyable.

I think the game does a poor job telegraphing the "right" way to handle that encounter. Like, you're told to do the completely wrong thing, that makes it way more difficult than it has to be.

I agree the designers could have done a better job, but I think they did try. Notice how

Spoiler

on the second and third fights the Imprisoned--after falling--blocks the path so that you must use the air vents

.

 

[Red]

I agree the designers could have done a better job, but I think they did try. Notice how

Spoiler

on the second and third fights the Imprisoned--after falling--blocks the path so that you must use the air vents

.

That's

Spoiler

after falling though. Which would require you to take out the toes in the first place, which is actually completely unnecessary.

 

[ASIS]

Thank you to the dude who told me how to easily beat

Spoiler

The Imprisoned

on the last page. One of my few complaints was how god-awful that fight was, and your method made it far more enjoyable.

I think the game does a poor job telegraphing the "right" way to handle that encounter. Like, you're told to do the completely wrong thing, that makes it way more difficult than it has to be.

Do you guys want handholding or not?

Seriously it's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

[Red]

Do you guys want handholding or not?

Seriously it's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I don't know if I see it that way. There's a difference between giving you clues about what to do, and literally telling you to do the wrong thing.

Spoiler

Fi tells you to go for the toes, which are targeted by default when you Z target, and appear with a different color and form as the rest of him. To me, this screams "weak point," but that's actually not the case.

I beat the second form by using the vents after knocking him down, running to the other side of him, and hitting the sword back in. Kept taking unavoidable damage and knew there must have been a better way, simply didn't know what that way was.

And it's the one time during the game where Fi doesn't tell you what to do. It's the only time I voluntarily asked her for advice, and she came up with nothing. "No information at this time."

If you beat him the improper way the first time, the second time when he appears you may think, "oh, there are fingers now too I need to take care of." And then when knocking only his toes out again makes him fall, you wonder why there was another set of targets if they don't do anything. It communicates something, but how are you supposed to know it's telling you the toes, like the nails, are not the intended target? You start on the bottom, by his feet. The toes are the first thing you see. The only way I can see most people discovering the actual way to take him out is by dropping on top of him as a fluke. Most players I doubt will understand by themselves.

 

[BocoDragon]

Amazon just charged my credit card for the CE. My long nightmare is over. Soon I will join you all.....

 

[RagnarokX]

I don't know if I see it that way. There's a difference between giving you clues about what to do, and literally telling you to do the wrong thing.

Spoiler

Fi tells you to go for the toes, which are targeted by default when you Z target, and appear with a different color and form as the rest of him. To me, this screams "weak point," but that's actually not the case.

I beat the second form by using the vents after knocking him down, running to the other side of him, and hitting the sword back in. Kept taking unavoidable damage and knew there must have been a better way, simply didn't know what that way was.

And it's the one time during the game where Fi doesn't tell you what to do. It's the only time I voluntarily asked her for advice, and she came up with nothing. "No information at this time."

Spoiler

Fi doesn't tell you anything important when she pops up, and when you ask her on bosses she always stops before telling you hints and gives you the choice to say no. She's annoying because she tells you stuff you already know, not because she spoils stuff. On the Imprisoned, apparently she tells you the most basic way to beat The Imprisoned. You wouldn't expect Navi to tell you to whip out a bottle against Ganon or Midna to tell you to go fishing for Ganons. If you don't want handholding why are you even asking her for boss strategy in the first place?

 

[Red]

Spoiler

Fi doesn't tell you anything important when she pops up, and when you ask her on bosses she always stops before telling you hints and gives you the choice to say no. She's annoying because she tells you stuff you already know, not because she spoils stuff. On the Imprisoned, apparently she tells you the most basic way to beat The Imprisoned. You wouldn't expect Navi to tell you to whip out a bottle against Ganon or Midna to tell you to go fishing for Ganons. If you don't want handholding why are you even asking her for boss strategy in the first place?

Huh

All she says is "no information at this time,"

Spoiler

at least during the second and third encounters.

For every other boss, your helper character (since OoT) has given you tips on bosses if you ask for them. This goes for nearly every fight. The ones that are exempt are well telegraphed, so you're primed for what to do.

None of that is true for

Spoiler

The Imprisoned.

It's not about handholding. It's about being prepared through some clue beforehand about a potential strategy, and being able to ask for help if it's needed.

There's no other boss in the series history I can think of whose solution is so esoteric. As is, you're given what amounts basically to a red herring and sent on your way. It's possible to complete it the wrong way, which is what makes it especially confusing.

 

[Mistle]

Really wish the game would have had some sort of tunic progression system. I don't like looking exactly the same at the outset of my adventure as I do at the end.

I have a soft spot for tunic changes too, I was hoping there'd be upgrades to it like the other items.

Though I guess this game is meant to be the original of the hero in the green tunic.

 

[Red]

I have a soft spot for tunic changes too, I was hoping there'd be upgrades to it like the other items.

Though I guess this game is meant to be the original of the hero in the green tunic.

Wasn't that already OoT, though? The hero is in green because he was a Kokiri, and that's what they wear. The "hero clothes" in Wind Waker at least were pretty clearly considered so because of OoT's Link.


And Ezlo again is forgotten to history.

 

[Togglesworlh]

Plus she has a lovely voice.

Lovely in the kind of way that I laughed out loud at how awful it was when I had to do that job.

 

[Hobbestetrician]

Holy shit at

Spoiler

The Imprisoned

. Awesome boss. And it's not even

Spoiler

in a dungeon!

 

[MrCheez]

I still can't believe how goofy

Spoiler

The Imprisoned

ended up looking, for being some sort of

Spoiler

ultimate evil incarnate

.

Wiggggglllyyyy tooooeeeessssss

That and the design of the

Spoiler

sea monster

kinda threw me off. The overall art direction and character designs are otherwise spectacular.

 

[Relix]

Playing OoT3D... 1 hour in... already got to the second dungeon lol. Knowing every single thing from memory doesn't help me speeding through it all. Hell I remembered the exact spot where the Hylian Shield was in the graveyard haha

 

[Caelus]

Wasn't that already OoT, though? The hero is in green because he was a Kokiri, and that's what they wear.

Why do the Kokiri wear green, though?

 

[Togglesworlh]

Why do the Kokiri wear green, though?

Because they live in the forest?

 

[shadyspace]

Wasn't that already OoT, though? The hero is in green because he was a Kokiri, and that's what they wear. The "hero clothes" in Wind Waker at least were pretty clearly considered so because of OoT's Link.


And Ezlo again is forgotten to history.

Spirit Track's explanation for the green tunic is the worst of all of them.

 

[Red]

Spirit Track's explanation for the green tunic is the worst of all of them.

I don't remember it.

 

[Green Mamba]

I don't remember it.

The guards of Hyrule Castle wear uniforms designed to look like Link's outfit. Link borrows one so he can walk among the guards without being caught.

 

[RagnarokX]

The guards of Hyrule Castle wear uniforms designed to look like Link's outfit. Link borrows one so he can walk among the guards without being caught.

And that's a good explanation, so I don't know where Shadyspace is coming from.

Huh

All she says is "no information at this time,"

Spoiler

at least during the second and third encounters.

For every other boss, your helper character (since OoT) has given you tips on bosses if you ask for them. This goes for nearly every fight. The ones that are exempt are well telegraphed, so you're primed for what to do.

None of that is true for

Spoiler

The Imprisoned.

It's not about handholding. It's about being prepared through some clue beforehand about a potential strategy, and being able to ask for help if it's needed.

There's no other boss in the series history I can think of whose solution is so esoteric. As is, you're given what amounts basically to a red herring and sent on your way. It's possible to complete it the wrong way, which is what makes it especially confusing.

They give you plenty of clues:

Spoiler

The stake is on his head.
There are vents everywhere allowing you to get above him, including one in the center that launches you into the sky.
His height puts him just below each ledge.

 

[Boney]

zelda ranking tiiiiiiiime!

 

[MechaX]

Oh wow, the boss fight

Spoiler

with the Imprisoned on my first time

was really fucking out of nowhere. Is there a reason why everybody is complaining about this fight or does it get even worse on the subsequent versions?

Spoiler

I mean, when I saw that pillar sticking out of his head, plus the vents, it was painfully obvious on what to do even despite how Fi surprisingly gives absolute 0% info on the guy.

 

[AniHawk]

also, god damn the music in this game was great.

[spoilers from everywhere]

Spoiler

follow fi/fi's theme is the standout for me. the romance theme is great too, but then, all the stuff during the cutscenes are fantastic, including the best rendition of zelda's lullaby yet.

trying to find all the cutscene music. was this the one that played during the post-credits? or maybe i'm thinking about when it played pre-credits and was when fi left. i know it was the piece used when zelda enters the 1000 year sleep

edit: found it! so good.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I don't know if I see it that way. There's a difference between giving you clues about what to do, and literally telling you to do the wrong thing.

Spoiler

Fi tells you to go for the toes, which are targeted by default when you Z target, and appear with a different color and form as the rest of him. To me, this screams "weak point," but that's actually not the case.

I beat the second form by using the vents after knocking him down, running to the other side of him, and hitting the sword back in. Kept taking unavoidable damage and knew there must have been a better way, simply didn't know what that way was.

And it's the one time during the game where Fi doesn't tell you what to do. It's the only time I voluntarily asked her for advice, and she came up with nothing. "No information at this time."

If you beat him the improper way the first time, the second time when he appears you may think, "oh, there are fingers now too I need to take care of." And then when knocking only his toes out again makes him fall, you wonder why there was another set of targets if they don't do anything. It communicates something, but how are you supposed to know it's telling you the toes, like the nails, are not the intended target? You start on the bottom, by his feet. The toes are the first thing you see. The only way I can see most people discovering the actual way to take him out is by dropping on top of him as a fluke. Most players I doubt will understand by themselves.

Spoiler

I don't exactly consider myself the smartest monkey in any given room, but my first thought was "Me gonna fly and smash that stone on his badly designed head."

 

[Hobbestetrician]

Oh wow, the boss fight

Spoiler

with the Imprisoned on my first time

was really fucking out of nowhere. Is there a reason why everybody is complaining about this fight or does it get even worse on the subsequent versions?

Spoiler

I mean, when I saw that pillar sticking out of his head, plus the vents, it was painfully obvious even despite how Fi surprisingly gives absolute 0% info on the guy.

Yeah, an awesome fight.

 

[AniHawk]

zelda ranking tiiiiiiiime!

Legend of Zelda - 6
Adventure of Link - 4
A Link to the Past - 6
Link's Awakening - 8
Ocarina of Time - 6
Majora's Mask - 7
oracle of ages - 7
oracle of seasons - 3
Four Swords adventure- 7
The Wind Waker - 6
The Minish Cap - 8
Twilight Princess - 9
Phantom Hourglass - 2
Spirit Tracks - 7
skyward sword - 8

 

[kunonabi]

My 3D Zelda rankings:

SS
TP
TWW/MM
OoT

My personal favorite is still TP though.

 

[emb]

zelda ranking tiiiiiiiime!

LttP
OoT

LA
WW
SS

OoA
MM
LoZ
OoS
AoL

TP
MC
FSA
ST

PH
FS

Don't hurt me, GAF.

The middle tier there could probably go in about any order. A lot of really different games to try to compare, hard to quantify how much I enjoyed each.

SS is hard to rank. It had a lot of nuisance, but it was spread throughout the game, and the pacing in between felt great. Adding so much interaction to basic combat and movement really pushed the game up though, in spite of some scenarios of the adventure.

 

[shadyspace]

3D Zelda:
SS
OOT
MM
WW


































TP

 

[Thunder Monkey]

SS=TP>WW=OoT

I've tried to play MM sooo many times. But I can't finish it. If I'd gotten it on the N64 I would have. But by the time I actually had the game the slow down, and general ugliness made me too queasy to finish. Hell SS had a moment that gave me motion sickness. And that has a much higher and more stable framerate.

 

[Big One]

Descending order from best to least best:
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Skyward Sword
The Wind Waker
Majora's Mask
Ocarina of Time
Twilight Princess
Adventure of Link
Spirit Tracks
The Minish Cap
Legend of Zelda
Four Swords Adventure
Phantom Hourglass
Four Swords

 

[Anth0ny]

God Tier:

Majora's Mask
Ocarina of Time

High Tier:

Skyward Sword
Wind Waker
Zelda II
Link's Awakening
Link to the Past
Twilight Princess
Minish Cap
Oracle of Seasons

Mid Tier:

Four Swords Adventure
Zelda I
Four Swords Anniversary Ed.

Haven't played Tier:

Oracle of Ages
Phantom Hourglass
Spirit Tracks

For what it's worth, the order in which I completed each game:

Wind Waker
Majora's Mask
Ocarina of Time
Twilight Princess
Link to the Past
Four Swords Adventures
Oracle of Seasons
Zelda I
Links' Awakening
Zelda II
Minish Cap
Skyward Sword

*bolded I played this year

 

[Diffense]

I got to dungeon 4. Was messing around with the

Spoiler

lock in the second room with the tablet beside it that said you needed to know the secret order. Well, I got it first try through sheer luck.

With what people have been saying about game-breaking bugs I'm almost afraid to save!

 

[braves01]

Legend of Zelda - 6
Adventure of Link - 4
A Link to the Past - 6
Link's Awakening - 8
Ocarina of Time - 6
Majora's Mask - 7
oracle of ages - 7
oracle of seasons - 3
Four Swords adventure- 7
The Wind Waker - 6
The Minish Cap - 8
Twilight Princess - 9
Phantom Hourglass - 2
Spirit Tracks - 7
skyward sword - 8

How is there a four point difference between these two? They're as identical as two different games can be.

 

[emb]

Descending order from best to least best:

I like how you worded that.

I got to dungeon 4. Was messing around with the

Spoiler

lock in the second room with the tablet beside it that said you needed to know the secret order. Well, I got it first try through sheer luck.

With what people have been saying about game-breaking bugs I'm almost afraid to save!

Lol, lucky. You should be fine, I don't think the game actually checks anything, just some stuff you're expected to go see.