Support NeoGAF

[AniHawk]

How is there a four point difference between these two? They're as identical as two different games can be.

seasons makes you go to certain places to slowly change to one of four correct choices, and the choices only stick around for that area.

ages lets you time travel between two timelines any time you want, anywhere you want. also it had way better dungeons.

 

[Diffense]

Lol, lucky. You should be fine, I don't think the game actually checks anything, just some stuff you're expected to go see.

Cool. Thanks!

 

[decoyplatypus]

oot3d took me 15-16 hours at the time, so that's pretty good for a 13 year old game. the pacing is great and there is a lot to do. in terms of size, it's small. aside from the spirit temple and the shadow temple, a lot of the rooms feel tiny and closed in.

You're probably right that OoT had fewer enormous dungeon rooms than TP, but next to WW and SS?
-The Deku tree was mostly large rooms.
-Dodongo Cavern had the central area, the lizalfos fight area, and that keese flooded area where you eventually drag the rock.
-Jabu Jabu was mostly small rooms.
-Forest Temple had the giant, block-pulling room, the outdoor areas, and the jigsaw ceiling room.
-Fire Temple was almost entirely large, open areas.
-Water Temple had a variety of room sizes.
-Shadow and Spirit temples you already have covered.

Are you sure part of the problem isn't that you last replayed the game on a handheld?

oot's puzzles are all about the most basic things to do in 3d space. in 1998, this was extremely brand new, and about as far as anyone ever went with designing an action-adventure game in 3d. now, there are more complex puzzles, better aesthetics, and a larger scale.

Sure, there's a fair share of "look around in 3D space to find the switch," but there are also fake walls, water level changes, mirror-shield tricks, bombchus... I'm not going to deny that TP, for one, had better puzzles, but it's not like all OoT did was transfer the basic format into 3D.

a lot of the forest temple's stuff is: hookshot to this thing. shoot into this eye. push block into place in the time limit. the twisty hallway is the one thing i still take away from the temple, but i don't think it stacks up to the first dungeon of tww (from what i can remember).

Fair enough, but I've played WW five times, and I can't remember a single puzzle from that first dungeon (not that this proves anything). The twisty hallway, the ice-encased eyeball, and shooting the ghost portraits are all pretty firmly lodged in my memory. Plus Phantom Ganon >>> Gohma (gorgeous as it is in Wind Waker).

First Tier: OoT = LttP
Second Tier: LA = MM = WW = TP > SS
Third Tier: LoZ = MC
Fourth Tier: OoA > AoL > OoS > ST
Fifth Tier: PH

 

[Octorockin']

This Groose fan art made me laugh He's such a great character.

 

[braves01]

seasons makes you go to certain places to slowly change to one of four correct choices, and the choices only stick around for that area.

ages lets you time travel between two timelines any time you want, anywhere you want. also it had way better dungeons.

I'm pretty sure you can't just time travel at will in OoA (maybe in one direction, but not both), so its mechanic isn't too different from OoS. IIRC, Ages had tree stumps just like Seasons for changing the over world. I'm with you on OoA having better dungeons and the slight edge overall, but a four point differential on your scale is just inconsistent.

 

[EvilMario]

Although a decade later, it's hazy, I remember enjoying Seasons a lot more than Ages. Maybe if I played them now, that opinion would change.

 

[AniHawk]

You're probably right that OoT had fewer enormous dungeon rooms than TP, but next to WW and SS?
-The Deku tree was mostly large rooms.
-Dodongo Cavern had the central area, the lizalfos fight area, and that keese flooded area where you eventually drag the rock.
-Jabu Jabu was mostly small rooms.
-Forest Temple had the giant, block-pulling room, the outdoor areas, and the jigsaw ceiling room.
-Fire Temple was almost entirely large, open areas.
-Water Temple had a variety of room sizes.
-Shadow and Spirit temples you already have covered.

Are you sure part of the problem isn't that you last replayed the game on a handheld?

i think it's that the console zelda i played before oot was tp, so i was directly comparing the two. even the relatively big, open rooms of the water temple or dodongo cavern felt small compared to areas in twilight princess.

Sure, there's a fair share of "look around in 3D space to find the switch," but there are also fake walls, water level changes, mirror-shield tricks, bombchus... I'm not going to deny that TP, for one, had better puzzles, but it's not like all OoT did was transfer the basic format into 3D.

i don't think oot's a bad game, but it's like smb3. smb3 is still a lot of fun to play, but there's so much more interesting things going on in 2d space in nsmbw. in retrospect, there are several levels in smb3 that take only a few seconds to complete and less challenging than stuff in nsmbw.

Fair enough, but I've played WW five times, and I can't remember a single puzzle from that first dungeon (not that this proves anything). The twisty hallway, the ice-encased eyeball, and shooting the ghost portraits are all pretty firmly lodged in my memory. Plus Phantom Ganon >>> Gohma (gorgeous as it is in Wind Waker).

phantom ganon was great. i think he's a big part of why people still love the forest temple. it's the part of the game where it shifts fully from beginner mode to serious gametime mode. i just find it baffling that the game still gets 10/10 scores upon rerelease. i think if it came out in place of skyward sword, that people wouldn't be so crazy about it.

 

[emb]

The difference between time travel and season changes was the consistency. You unlocked harp songs that allowed you to travel back and forth in different ways, but you would stay in the time until you went back. You had to step on a portal or play the song. Seasons has kind of divided the world with sections that automatically default to one season or another.

I enjoyed Seasons more at first. Rod of Seasons was cooler than the harp, Subrosia was cooler than the past, and Onox was cooler than Veran. Once I made it all the way through though, I felt like the puzzle focus in Ages made it stand out a good bit more.

 

[The Technomancer]

i don't think oot's a bad game, but it's like smb3. smb3 is still a lot of fun to play, but there's so much more interesting things going on in 2d space in nsmbw. in retrospect, there are several levels in smb3 that take only a few seconds to complete and less challenging than stuff in nsmbw.

This is basically how I feel, and why TP is so disappointing because its highs were so high over Ocarina that the unfinished feel to the game really dragged things down.

 

[bigmakattack]

Just beat the 4th boss and I was certainly surprised that

Spoiler

the flame you had to get was actually one of the Triforce. Didn't see it coming at all.

 

[AniHawk]

I'm pretty sure you can't just time travel at will in OoA (maybe in one direction, but not both), so its mechanic isn't too different from OoS. IIRC, Ages had tree stumps just like Seasons for changing the over world. I'm with you on OoA having better dungeons and the slight edge overall, but a four point differential on your scale is just inconsistent.

at the end of ages, you can go between past and present at whim thanks to the tune of ages, but it works its way up to it. in seasons you're doing the same goddamn awful fucking thing the entire goddamn fucking time.

 

[Kambing]

YES, got the remote bundle from Amazon just now! Now i have two copies ... That gold remote, shall be mine!

 

[The Technomancer]

Argh, haven't had time to play last night or tonight. I'm going to try and get dungeons 5 and 6 both done tomorrow.

 

[BocoDragon]

YES, got the remote bundle from Amazon just now! Now i have two copies ... That gold remote, shall be mine!

Nice! Got mine too. Very happy tonight.

I don't really give a crap about the "rarity" but I want that gold remote! Also, I would have to get some sort of Wii motion thing anyway, and it would have been a lot more than the $10 extra that Nintendo is asking for the bundle.

 

[AniHawk]

Argh, haven't had time to play last night or tonight. I'm going to try and get dungeons 5 and 6 both done tomorrow.

man, i think that's like 7-8 hours of gametime.

 

[The Technomancer]

man, i think that's like 7-8 hours of gametime.

....alright, I'm going to try and beat 5 and get to the beginning of 6 tomorrow

 

[oatmeal]

Finished the Sixth dungeon...

One thing that I will absolutely give credit to this game for...

You really do feel like you get better at sword fighting.

When you first fight the Lizalfos in the second dungeon, I got rocked. But I just fought the two in the next dungeon and wiped the shit out of them. Fuck yea.

Also, the music is killer... There's some shitty shit in there, but mixed in is some brilliance.

But I have the music dump from the game, and there's some AWEEEESOME stuff. A lot of which I haven't even heard yet.

 

[AniHawk]

....alright, I'm going to try and beat 5 and get to the beginning of 6 tomorrow

probably more doable. i did 3-5 hours a night compared to a run of 13 hours a day with tp, and i am glad i did. last night it took me 5 hours to get from just before the final dungeon to the final save screen.

 

[Kambing]

Nice! Got mine too. Very happy tonight.

I don't really give a crap about the "rarity" but I want that gold remote! Also, I would have to get some sort of Wii motion thing anyway, and it would have been a lot more than the $10 extra that Nintendo is asking for the bundle.

LOL, i can share your sentiment. Kind of surprised to be honest that its back in stock but glad nonetheless. Lets get our gold swag on man!

 

[BocoDragon]

LOL, i can share your sentiment. Kind of surprised to be honest that its back in stock but glad nonetheless. Lets get our gold swag on man!

Nice. I'm gonna wear it around my neck like a medallion.

 

[decoyplatypus]

i don't think oot's a bad game, but it's like smb3. smb3 is still a lot of fun to play, but there's so much more interesting things going on in 2d space in nsmbw. in retrospect, there are several levels in smb3 that take only a few seconds to complete and less challenging than stuff in nsmbw.

...i just find it baffling that the game still gets 10/10 scores upon rerelease. i think if it came out in place of skyward sword, that people wouldn't be so crazy about it.

I don't disagree with your analysis of SMB3 and NSMBWii (although it bears mentioning that SMB3 still feels more experimental than NSMBWii), but there's a critical difference between NSMBWii and the recent Zeldas. NSMBWii retains almost all the virtues of SMB3 while adding some of its own. The post-Ocarina Zeldas have unquestionably improved upon some aspects of the Zelda formula (and not just graphics),* but they've each taken something away as well. Whether it's poor dungeons, low difficulty, or an overlong tutorial , each Zelda game since OoT has given the player a very good reason to prefer playing OoT. None of them pull the elements together as well as OoT.

*MM and WW had superior NPC interaction. WW and TP both had better combat. TP probably had slightly higher overall dungeon quality. SS, at the very least, will be remembered fondly for adding sprinting and fast climbing to the 3D games.

Plus, who knows, maybe after a couple more SS-style games, lighting the torches will stop being a totally intuitive puzzle again.

 

[Pachinko]

Well, finally polished off dungeon 6 tonight. Without spoiling anything I'll only say that after fighting 4 inventive cool bosses I'm a little disappointed at the crappy boss in dungeon 6. The item you recieve in that dungeon could have made for a nice inventive and interesting boss fight and instead it's an annoyance. At least I didn't die on it.

32 hours on the game clock right now. I'm curious what the probably final chunk of the game brings forth. So far , as compared to twilight princess , skyward sword has had both higher highs and lower lows but I will ultimately wait until completion to make final judgement.

 

[RagnarokX]

i don't think oot's a bad game, but it's like smb3. smb3 is still a lot of fun to play, but there's so much more interesting things going on in 2d space in nsmbw. in retrospect, there are several levels in smb3 that take only a few seconds to complete and less challenging than stuff in nsmbw.

Well, to be fair, SMB3 actually was the best 2D Mario game until NSMBW came out. It's not like as many 2D games have come out after it as 3D games after OoT

 

[AniHawk]

Well, to be fair, SMB3 actually was the best 2D Mario game until NSMBW came out. It's not like as many 2D games have come out after it as 3D games after OoT

oot
1. mm
2. tww
3. tp
4. ss

smb3
1. sml
2. smw
3. sml 2
4. nsmb
5. nsmbw

 

[The Xtortionist]

smb3
1. sml
2. smw
3. sml 2
4. nsmb
5. nsmbw

oh snap

 

[Ydahs]

The third dungeon is great. Love the new enemies introduced.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Pre-dungeon 5 stuff:

HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHAT

Spoiler

WHO THE FUCK PUT A BOSS BATTLE IN THE MIDDLE OF MY NON BOSS BATTLING

FUCK THAT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME

 

[AniHawk]

Pre-dungeon 5 stuff:

HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHAT

Spoiler

WHO THE FUCK PUT A BOSS BATTLE IN THE MIDDLE OF MY NON BOSS BATTLING

FUCK THAT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME

pre-5 is fucking fantastic. it cemented the idea that all the surface stuff was really one giant, expansive dungeon.

actually, lanayru was pretty great all-around.

 

[Regulus Tera]

pre-5 is fucking fantastic. it cemented the idea that all the surface stuff was really one giant, expansive dungeon.

actually, lanayru was pretty great all-around.

The dial quest pre-3 was too long.

 

[Togglesworlh]

The dial quest pre-3 was too long.

Nah it was cool.

 

[Inferno313]

We still ranking? I'm only going to include ones that I've completely beaten. So MM (I know, I know planning to play it on the VC soon), OoS, LoZ1, AoL, and LA will not be included. Sorry.

Right now I'd say:

1. Wind Waker (A big part of this is the time I played this. It was not the first Zelda I played but the first one I was hyped for, got at release date, and beat. A big part of it is nostalgia admittedly. However, I do feel that it has the best visuals, story, music and world of any Zelda game.)
2. Skyward Sword
3. Ocarina of Time
4. A Link to the Past
5. Twilight Princess
6. Minish Cap
7. Oracle of Ages
7. Phantom Hourglass
8. Spirit Tracks (Yes, I like it less than PH. Dat flute grr.)

 

[Thunder Monkey]

pre-5 is fucking fantastic. it cemented the idea that all the surface stuff was really one giant, expansive dungeon.

actually, lanayru was pretty great all-around.

*brofist*

 

[KorrZ]

Figure I'll post my rankings of the 3D Zelda's since everyone else is.

1. Ocarina of Time

Obvious answer, I know. But no game in the series resonates with me more, it was my first Zelda ever and I adore it. Beaten it easily 20+ times over the years and own the original N64 version, Gamecube masterquest version, virtual console version and the 3DS version.

2. Majora's Mask

Took pretty much all of the great things from Ocarina and created a fantastically dark world and story. I loved the tone of this game. It sticks out especially with how you get the main masks, meeting the Zora and Goron leader. Song of Healing is also still probably my favourite Zelda song ever, it's so sad but beautiful at the same time. This says it all best:

Time...cruel and fearful...
A swamp, where one is about to be executed for a crime he did not commit...
A sea, where a fallen musician can only lament his failure...
A mountain, where a leader is powerless to save his people...
A valley, where the ghosts of the past still fight a war that has long since ended...
A town...caught between it all...where the end begins...
And one boy...a hero...with all the time in the world...and no time at all..to save this world...

3. Twilight Princess

Let's face it, this is a basically a new Ocarina of Time. It doesn't quite capture the essence that made Ocarina so magical, but it has some of the best dungeons and bosses in the entire series and Midna is the best companion in a Zelda game period.

4. Skyward Sword

Granted, I haven't finished Skyward Sword yet. From what I've played so far though (up to the 5th dungeon) I think it's better than Wind Waker, but doesn't come close to touching my top 3. The dungeons and bosses are excellent as well as the art style, a perfect middle ground between TP and WW.

Fi is such a step back from Midna I can't believe they would regress that far. She's completely annoying and constantly just reminds you about pointless shit you already know, and you can't skip it. You know something is wrong when you actually DREAD seeing your companion pop out.

Motion controls are great when they work, but the thing is even though they work great 85% of the time, all it takes is that one time where the controls don't respond properly to take you out of the experience completely.

5. Wind Waker

The only 3D Zelda game I haven't beaten more than once, my memory of the specific aspects of it are a little hazey since I haven't played it since the first week it came out. Triforce hunt at the end was terrible and unneccasary, and I don't think many of the dungeons or bosses are all that memorable. Art style is fantastic and it's still a great Zelda game, I just think it's the weakest of the 3D Zeldas.

 

[cacophony]

About 2 hours in. The motion controls are honestly just pissing me off a lot. I think I need to be more patient or something but it seems like even when I'm doing the correct motion it doesn't work. I have some trouble even killing one of those goblin things cause it blocks all my attacks. Hopefully I get better at it or I am going to be getting my ass kicked later on. Balancing on the tightropes feels really awkward too, even right after I calibrate the wiimote. Also, what the fuck is 'jostle'? I shake the wiimote but it doesn't do anything.

 

[Papercuts]

Well, at the last boss now. Holy fuuuuuuuck at basically everything.

Spoiler

I REALLY liked the 7th dungeon. That was cool as hell.

 

[abstract alien]

Sigh...my save data has vanished, along with a few other titles...

 

[victreeb3l]

About 2 hours in. The motion controls are honestly just pissing me off a lot. I think I need to be more patient or something but it seems like even when I'm doing the correct motion it doesn't work. I have some trouble even killing one of those goblin things cause it blocks all my attacks. Hopefully I get better at it or I am going to be getting my ass kicked later on. Balancing on the tightropes feels really awkward too, even right after I calibrate the wiimote. Also, what the fuck is 'jostle'? I shake the wiimote but it doesn't do anything.

dedicate like 10-15 minutes to learning the controls at the sword academy place in skyloft. seriously.

also, all your strikes are usually based on the wiimote being flat. so for example, if you want to execute horizontal strikes, make sure your wiimote is held flat, then swing. i mentioned this a few days ago but i tend to hold the wii mote sideways by habit so my strikes werent going the way i wanted them. since ive been conscious about it, ive hit just about everything i wanted to hit.

same with vertical strikes.

for tightropes, i dash while quickly shaking the wiimote left and right while the wiimote is completely upright.

i think if a lot of people spent some time dedicating to the controls at first instead of rushing out and learning on the go, they would have a better time with this game. the controls have been flawless for me for the most part

 

[boiled goose]

Not sure if this is obvious or not,
but you can grab a beehive with the beetle and drop it on enemies. Quite nice.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Sigh...my save data has vanished, along with a few other titles...

Sorry to hear that.

Any ideas what happened?

 

[abstract alien]

Sorry to hear that.

Any ideas what happened?

Not sure honestly. Could have been a power surge I guess, but that wouldn't really do much to the Wii since its surge unit is outside of the console right? I'm at a loss. I even lost my brawl save, and that one can't be transferred. This was my old wii with everything on it, and now I'm stuck with my other modded wii, but no save data is on there except Another Code and Xenoblade since it was more or less a project :^/

 

[PokéKong]

Finished the 5th. Geez I wish they had spread the actual plot around a little more. It's like every time you beat a dungeon it's almost literally "we're doing grown up business, thanks but run along now Link, yeah don't worry about it, just keep at those dungeons, trust us it'll all work out." So... wtf is actually going on? Everyone's so vague and mysterious, they claim Link is special but he just seems like some clueless bystander.

The story started out so strong, then lost steam like no one's business. The intro and that recent scene with Groose are the most memorable parts so far. I'm still expecting it to pick big time up near the end.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

About 2 hours in. The motion controls are honestly just pissing me off a lot. I think I need to be more patient or something but it seems like even when I'm doing the correct motion it doesn't work. I have some trouble even killing one of those goblin things cause it blocks all my attacks. Hopefully I get better at it or I am going to be getting my ass kicked later on. Balancing on the tightropes feels really awkward too, even right after I calibrate the wiimote. Also, what the fuck is 'jostle'? I shake the wiimote but it doesn't do anything.

The early goblins adjust their blocking angle based on how you're holding your sword. So if you're holding it out to the side and they have their guard up for a horizontal attack, do a vertical attack motion quickly. You jostle the tight rope by flicking your wrist down. The tight ropes can be really annoying and it took me awhile to figure out that I wasn't doing the correct motion to balance right.

 

[FreeMufasa]

I've been in a Zelda mood since finishing SS so i've started a new TP file. I rented the Wii version and thought I might as well play it in mirror mode.

First impression, holy shit this feels unbelievably outdated. From how slow Link moves, janky animation, low quality sounding music. SS is so far ahead in all these areas. I still really like the game and the slow beginning. I'll be able to compare properly once I get to the dungeons and such.

 

[Red]

I've been in a Zelda mood since finishing SS so i've started a new TP file. I rented the Wii version and thought I might as well play it in mirror mode.

First impression, holy shit this feels unbelievably outdated. From how slow Link moves, janky animation, low quality sounding music. SS is so far ahead in all these areas. I still really like the game and the slow beginning. I'll be able to compare properly once I get to the dungeons and such.

Yup.

I was about 3/4 done with my TP replay when I got into SS. It is hard to go back.

The waggle combat feels so limiting in comparison. And it really makes it painfully obvious how much of TP is occupied by dead space.

 

[jarosh]

I've been in a Zelda mood since finishing SS so i've started a new TP file. I rented the Wii version and thought I might as well play it in mirror mode.

First impression, holy shit this feels unbelievably outdated. From how slow Link moves, janky animation, low quality sounding music. SS is so far ahead in all these areas. I still really like the game and the slow beginning. I'll be able to compare properly once I get to the dungeons and such.

...link's regular walking/running speed is faster in tp than in ss. only running is faster in ss and that is heavily limited by the stamina meter.

what's really agonizingly slow in tp is the climbing. holy shit.

Yup.

I was about 3/4 done with my TP replay when I got into SS. It is hard to go back.

The waggle combat feels so limiting in comparison. And it really makes it painfully obvious how much of TP is occupied by dead space.

huh? how so?

 

[FreeMufasa]

Yup.

I was about 3/4 done with my TP replay when I got into SS. It is hard to go back.

The waggle combat feels so limiting in comparison. And it really makes it painfully obvious how much of TP is occupied by dead space.

It's funny because I remember saying something similar when TP was released.

...link's regular walking/running speed is faster in tp than in ss. only running is faster in ss and that is heavily limited by the stamina meter.

Yeah running is not too bad in TP but stuff like climbing is so slow. One thing I do like that was missing from SS was running while swinging your sword.

 

[Ydahs]

Got done with the third dungeon and just

Spoiler

sealed the beast in the Sealed Grounds

. Is the upcoming fetch quest the one that may lead to a game breaking bug?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Got done with the third dungeon and just

Spoiler

sealed the beast in the Sealed Grounds

. Is the upcoming fetch quest the one that may lead to a game breaking bug?

Nah, you'll know when. You'll have the choice of which order you'd like to visit the areas in.

 

[Red]

Jarosh: the dead space in Twilight Princess is due to the size and breadth if each area. By no means is it as awful as Wind Waker, but it is still a drag traveling through a vast and empty Hyrule field. Each proper area is also so huge that despite being able to teleport, it can take a while to get from point to point within each area.

I much prefer SS's compact layout, where every few feet there is an enemy encounter or opportunity for light platforming. That kind of thing is reminiscent of the 2d games, where mostly every square of the map featured something to do.

I also prefer flying, where every objective and location is clearly marked and visible at all times, to TP's vast labyrinthine Hyrule. I'm up for exploring, but given the choice of exploring an epic nothingness and a tightly designed, compact zone, I'll take the latter.

Take Lake Hylia for instance. Swimming in TP is so cumbersome, and the area is so massive that it takes something like 3 minutes to swim from one side to the other. That doesn't seem long, but when you have nothing to do for those 3 minutes except hold forward it becomes a problem.

In general, movement in SS is faster and more fluid as well, which allows for easier traversal and a quickened sense of pace.

I think something like Dark Souls or Arkham City handles the type of exploration TP attempted quite a bit more deftly.

 

[Mgoblue201]

Skyward Sword has a lot of eccentric and interesting characters, perhaps moreso than any Zelda since Wind Waker, but I feel that the game would've been better served had they omitted Fi altogether. Within the context of the gameplay she serves very little purpose - merely obliging the tendency, since TP, to include a sidekick - and, in general, I think that she's a terrible character. I try to ignore her as much as I can.