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The Liberals have been running this country since the 60's
- Thread starter Docwiz
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I'm gonna respond wearing two hats.Docwiz said:
Forum personality hat:
"Religious rights" does not mean "instilling Christianity everywhere." "Family values" does not mean "Christian values." In fact, you're throwing around terms without even a hint of a definition. Care to explain exactly what those terms mean, and why you're implying that liberals are necessarily non-religious with poor family values?
Also, in case you missed the whole American Revolution thing, God was never SUPPOSED to be in the schools to begin with. Does "separation of church and state" mean anything to you?
As for the "liberals running the country since the 1950s," I don't know whether to laugh or scream. Have you ever heard of Richard Nixon? Two Bush administrations? And that one really obscure President that no one has ever linked with the rise of conservatism, Ronald Reagan?
Moderator hat:
As of this writing, you've been a member since November 7, have 17 total posts, and the last 14 posts have been split between this thread and the infamous "gays choosing Canada" thread. You're fond of stirring up controversy and firing off sweeping, unsubstantiated generalizations. If I were you, I'd start phrasing my arguments a LOT more tightly, and presenting some evidence for what you're talking about. You are being watched.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
To take the thread seriously for a minute--
God has nothign to do with what's wrong with schools. And I do fault the liberals somewhat, although what's really at fault is the system of compromise that ensures that no proposed school reforms really have a chance of working.
I'm not sure what *about* schools Docwiz was upset about. Personally, I am upset about literacy rates and violence, two separate issues. Literacy I am hapy to blame the liberals for. Some confused folks seem to want to make equality mandatable at the skill level, and schools have been out of whack ever since. Violence, on the other hand, is a much more problematic issue. Certainly the anti-poor policies of the right and the band-aids of the left have both accellerated the issue to the mess it is now. But I expect things to get significantly worse under a primarily conservative federal government. The right's agenda for schools has been so off-target that it's no wonder the left has had such strong influence there. The left want to experiment with social theories that are unproven and only about helf of which work, the other half causing harm-- and the right wants prayer in schools, and/or to abandon public schools altogether via vouchers to let enough of their constituents afford it enough to allow such measures to pass without being political suicide.
The whole situation is fucked, but no federal-level leader has wanted to take this problem head-on. Certainly not the right, which is more interested in editing textbooks to cast doubt on science than they are of improving the quality of the students' education in a measurable way.
God has nothign to do with what's wrong with schools. And I do fault the liberals somewhat, although what's really at fault is the system of compromise that ensures that no proposed school reforms really have a chance of working.
I'm not sure what *about* schools Docwiz was upset about. Personally, I am upset about literacy rates and violence, two separate issues. Literacy I am hapy to blame the liberals for. Some confused folks seem to want to make equality mandatable at the skill level, and schools have been out of whack ever since. Violence, on the other hand, is a much more problematic issue. Certainly the anti-poor policies of the right and the band-aids of the left have both accellerated the issue to the mess it is now. But I expect things to get significantly worse under a primarily conservative federal government. The right's agenda for schools has been so off-target that it's no wonder the left has had such strong influence there. The left want to experiment with social theories that are unproven and only about helf of which work, the other half causing harm-- and the right wants prayer in schools, and/or to abandon public schools altogether via vouchers to let enough of their constituents afford it enough to allow such measures to pass without being political suicide.
The whole situation is fucked, but no federal-level leader has wanted to take this problem head-on. Certainly not the right, which is more interested in editing textbooks to cast doubt on science than they are of improving the quality of the students' education in a measurable way.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Oh oh, we've heard this before.
"I'm not going to post what I really think" because I'll be banned/attacked. Despite the fact that the bans/attacks come from NOT substantiating this crap is the first place.
I'm guessing 90 minutes until ban.
"I'm not going to post what I really think" because I'll be banned/attacked. Despite the fact that the bans/attacks come from NOT substantiating this crap is the first place.
I'm guessing 90 minutes until ban.
What, did the public school system suddenly break down after 1999? I found my experience to be pretty fulfilling, although I didn't take advantage of nearly as much as my school had to offer. For example, I sat around in 11th grade in the regular calculus class with an entire room full of seniors, while my buddies were all in AP Calc, and then in 12th, since I already had all the requisite math credits, I decided to take more art classes, while the same buddies were in AP Calc II. Any fault there lay with me, though.
Maybe the real problem is that we're trying too hard to help everyone get ahead, so that it drags the average down?
Edit: Or maybe it's the vending machines? Too much soda and candy, and all the students are too hyper and potentially violent to concentrate in classes....
Maybe the real problem is that we're trying too hard to help everyone get ahead, so that it drags the average down?
Edit: Or maybe it's the vending machines? Too much soda and candy, and all the students are too hyper and potentially violent to concentrate in classes....
1) Define the terms "religious rights" and "family values." Justify the implied statement that liberals are not religious and do not have family values. While you're at it, you'd better explain what you mean by "liberals," and which people are included in that group.Docwiz said:
2) Provide evidence for how liberals have "run the country since the 1950s" when we have had several LONG stretches of conservative and/or Republican control in that time span.
3) Provide evidence that the public school systems have declined. Provide evidence for the claim that liberals are responsible for the decline in the public school system. Explain how "taking the Bible out of schools" caused that decline.
4) Provide evidence that "women's rights issues" and "race relations" are better today.
That's a good start. Anyone else catch anything he's blithely ignored in this thread which should be added?
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Raoul Duke said:
Figureing the more liberal states have better educations systems overall I'm not sure how they are doing it either.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Yeah, Ignatz is largely spot-on in that analysis. The liberals are to blame for the promulgation of touchy-feely educational theory that devalues basic educational tenets in favor of some notion that all children can learn equally well if we just create the proper atmosphere for it. Those "theories" really appeal to lazy or unskilled teachers, since the advocates can avoid having to master basic disciplines like algebra and literary analysis in favor of whatever ad hoc approach they can justify. Liberals are also far too concerned with how kids are treated by their peers in school, and as a result create the sort of "no tolerance" draconian policies favored by the right. The kids just can't win with so many good intentions paving the path to the classroom doors.
Still, I'll take that over slashing up funding in favor of crack-addled privatization schemes and voucher systems, which do NOTHING but ensure that the wealthy get the best educations (and thus job opportunities) while the poor continue to receive the dregs. The stink of misappropriated fiscal libertarianism has permetaed the right's angle on education, who think that their Darwinian approach to free market theory will somehow magically work in education, as well. Draconian, jackboot policies like No Child Left Behind punish the students moreso than the lazy teachers they hope to correct -- it's no coincidence that Texas, the home of NCLB, has the worst student high school graduation rate in the country, yet teacher turnover hasn't changed at all. On top of that, the recent attacks on biology textbooks in favor of nuttery like "intelligent design" show that the Right really doesn't have a proper universal education in mind.
Public education reform is simple: stricter teacher competency evaluations. Better evaluation and funding for individual initiatives within school districts. Let children be free to worship if they are religious, but create and enforce no specific rules that favor a particular religion or creed. (Taking "under God" out of the Pledge prevents no-one from adding it back in when they say it, especially when it never should have been added in the first place.) Public schools are a place for COMMON public instruction, not an extension of your local church.
Still, I'll take that over slashing up funding in favor of crack-addled privatization schemes and voucher systems, which do NOTHING but ensure that the wealthy get the best educations (and thus job opportunities) while the poor continue to receive the dregs. The stink of misappropriated fiscal libertarianism has permetaed the right's angle on education, who think that their Darwinian approach to free market theory will somehow magically work in education, as well. Draconian, jackboot policies like No Child Left Behind punish the students moreso than the lazy teachers they hope to correct -- it's no coincidence that Texas, the home of NCLB, has the worst student high school graduation rate in the country, yet teacher turnover hasn't changed at all. On top of that, the recent attacks on biology textbooks in favor of nuttery like "intelligent design" show that the Right really doesn't have a proper universal education in mind.
Public education reform is simple: stricter teacher competency evaluations. Better evaluation and funding for individual initiatives within school districts. Let children be free to worship if they are religious, but create and enforce no specific rules that favor a particular religion or creed. (Taking "under God" out of the Pledge prevents no-one from adding it back in when they say it, especially when it never should have been added in the first place.) Public schools are a place for COMMON public instruction, not an extension of your local church.
carbonbased
Member
Just because you were fortunate enough to attend a decent high school doesn't mean that hundreds of thousands of youth aren't forced to go to extremely shoddy schools with miniscule budgets. The quality of education can vary hugely from district to district, and there's often little or nothing that the families living there can do about it.DarthWoo said:
carbonbased
Member
I usually tend to find your political opinions to be to the extreme left of my own, but this analysis is spot-on. And I'm a Christian.Drinky Crow said:
carbonbased
Member
Where in my post did I say I was agreeing with him? I think he's flat-out wrong on pretty much all accounts.DarthWoo said:
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Preach on Brother Drinky!
DarthWoo said:
Not sure about the rest of the country (I imagine that for most heavily urban areas it would be similar), but high schools in NYC are utter jokes, both in terms of literacy/competency/graduation rates as well as student morale, discipline, and interpersonal violence.
Obviously, an extremely motivated, bright student will still do well for themselves-- it's the rest of the people, who comprise the BULK of the students, whom the system is failing. Motivated students who manage to steer clear of violence and other extracurricular activities will ALWAYS do well, no matter how much of a failure the system may be. But we shouldn't measure the success of a system by the success stories, but rather by the averages. And those averages (in terms of literacy and graduation rates, as mentioned-- to say nothing of incarceration rates
) are appalling.A big reason for our declining educational performance relative to the rest of the world is the breakdown of the family-- either single-parents who need to work (obviously), or families where both parents need to work to make ends meet. The family unit's utility as a socializing force cannot be overstated; when this breaks down, schools have to pick up the slack in terms of discipline and basic interpersonal skills (there is also little to no reinforcement of lessons learned in school that day in such families; note that this is not a commentary on whether these are "good parents" or not-- people have to put food on the table, and sometimes things don't work out; this is understandable, if lamentable). These problems are exacerbated when english is not the language spoken at home. Schools are failing miserably, most of which is due to the policies enacted or those which they've failed to enact, and some of which lies with general social trends. This is not rocket science.
It also makes no difference to argue against this fact by pointing to this or that country that has a higher number of single-parent families (though I'm relatively certain that we lead the pack in that regard), and that's because those other countries also have different types of social nets and services, different cultures and values which are instilled into the young, and much higher minimum wages and better benefits, which means that people have to work less to get by, leaving more time for family. Point being that our problems in these areas are systemic, and cannot be reduced to a single cause, nor should a single group be demonized and held as responsible-- blame lies on all sides.
Put it this way: my sister and mother, who both work in the NYC public schools (my sister's a teacher and my mother's a family assistant), estimate that about 15-20% of the day is spent dealing with disciplinary problems and getting children just to sit in their seats and be quiet for the lesson. That's time taken away from instruction; moreover, such an environment is not conducive to learning in the first place. When I was in elementary school, if we had one disciplinary probem per week (and I was in public school), it was a lot (and they were not as severe as what goes on today-- kids throwing chairs and spitting at teachers etc.). Shit like that just didn't happen. A big reason for that is the lack of proper socializing agents, be it the family (broken), the community (broken), or our culture (entertainment etc.; also broken).
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Gen.Wedge said:
I was just pointing out with my initial post that apparently some schools haven't been effected by this supposed liberal god-sink. I suppose I could have been less subtle, but my statement below of the average being dragged down was a reference to the not-so-fortunate schools.
Drinky Crow said:
<thumbs-up>
Man, my thumb's getting tired in this thread.
Also, the bolded portion above is classic thesis-antithesis (i.e., Hegelian dialectic), with things having shifted so far in one direction (touchy-feely, lack of discipline) as to all-but-guarantee an overly strict, reactionary response (zero tolerance policies etc.); all we have left to do is find the synthesis.
Seems to be a bit difficult for our society.MrPing1000
Member
Liberals running the country since 1787. Damn seperation of church and state!!!
Drinky Crow
Banned
The "liberal states have better schools" line is a bit disingenuous. Yes, blue states OVERALL have better schooling, but that's because these states have more tax revenue available for public education, as well as a higher per-capita income which translates into better public/private schooling for their kids. Break it down to an individual school level, though, and you'll find inner-city and rural public schools just as bad as those in any "red" state.
It's really a national problem, not a state-specific one, and NCLB is so very VERY not the answer.
It's really a national problem, not a state-specific one, and NCLB is so very VERY not the answer.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Tritroid, in case you missed it, the argument turned from proving that liberals aren't the strawmen you've made of them toward proving that you're an idiot. I'd say the "Tritoid is a dumbass" crowd are doing a pretty good job of proving that latter case, too, largely thanks to your posting history.
Loki said:<thumbs-u....awww screw it. My fingers are tired.
I'm not sure if I like this new Loki, who's just sticking his thumb up in agreement rather than making lengthy and detailed responses.
Besides, cheerleading others' posts without adding anything to the discussion is my job.
Mercury Fred
Banned
-jinx- said:
Hmm, what ever happened to Docwiz's evidence. I can't wait to read it
Except conservatives have basically run this country since 1968 starting with Richard Nixon. The Democrats got a BRIEF respite under Carter, and they got a whopping two years of control under Clinton. Otherwise, it has been ALL CONSERVATIVES.Docwiz said:
Your theory fails already.
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