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The Literary Works of J.R.R. Tolkien Megathread |OT| Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

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CorvoSol

Member
Edmond Dantès;51482946 said:
A Vala like Aule wouldn't stand by and allow Sauron to wreak havoc while inhabiting Middle-earth. They were govenors of Arda, it was their duty imposed on them by Eru to aid his children.

The War of Wrath was necessary to deal with Melkor, but it wasn't the Valar who sunk much of Beleriand, neither was it them who sunk Numenor, it was Eru himself.
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But the Valar were content to let people handle Sauron on their own. Nobody in Lord of the Rings sounds like they expect the Valar to care about what becomes of Middle-Earth. Heck, Gandalf has a hard enough time getting Elves, Dwarves, and Men to care, how could he hope to convince the Valar to help out? Obviously you can't just have Valar solving everybody's problems in a story, but still.


On the subject of Cursed Treasure in Tolkien, does every one of his major works have a cursed relic? Lord of the Rings has the One Ring, and, to a lesser extent, the Palantir. The Hobbit has the Arkenstone and the horde of Erebor. And of course the Silmarillion has the Silmarils.
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
CorvoSol said:
But the Valar were content to let people handle Sauron on their own. Nobody in Lord of the Rings sounds like they expect the Valar to care about what becomes of Middle-Earth. Heck, Gandalf has a hard enough time getting Elves, Dwarves, and Men to care, how could he hope to convince the Valar to help out? Obviously you can't just have Valar solving everybody's problems in a story, but still.


On the subject of Cursed Treasure in Tolkien, does every one of his major works have a cursed relic? Lord of the Rings has the One Ring, and, to a lesser extent, the Palantir. The Hobbit has the Arkenstone and the horde of Erebor. And of course the Silmarillion has the Silmarils.
Click to expand...

All magic has a price...


I've read The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin. The latter I thought was more of a 3/5. Not sure I'll ever delve into the 12 book history, although it certainly sounds appealing.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
CorvoSol said:
But the Valar were content to let people handle Sauron on their own. Nobody in Lord of the Rings sounds like they expect the Valar to care about what becomes of Middle-Earth. Heck, Gandalf has a hard enough time getting Elves, Dwarves, and Men to care, how could he hope to convince the Valar to help out? Obviously you can't just have Valar solving everybody's problems in a story, but still.


On the subject of Cursed Treasure in Tolkien, does every one of his major works have a cursed relic? Lord of the Rings has the One Ring, and, to a lesser extent, the Palantir. The Hobbit has the Arkenstone and the horde of Erebor. And of course the Silmarillion has the Silmarils.
Click to expand...
But the very reason the Istari were sent was to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. They didn't abandon the Children of Iluvatar and only once did they relinquish their governorship of Arda (during the Fall of Numenor).

The theme of corruption caused by cursed relics is present in all of Tolkien's major works yes, a theme he borrowed predominantly from Norse/Welsh lore as well as Greek mythos (The Ring of Gyges).

His fairy tales were far more whimsical and comical in nature though, often parodying the established motifs found in fantasy stories. Farmer Giles of Ham even pokes fun at The Hobbit at times.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Candeldandel said:
Oooh. This post + your post in the Hobbit thread... blerg.

I find it hard to say anything about the depth of friendship in regards to then v. now, but relationships such as theirs seems like a rare thing in any time.
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Very much so.

Not to mention that these two lifelong friends are responsible for two of the most iconic fantasy worlds in all literature.
 
L

Loxley

Member
Some guy on Reddit calculated the theoretical population of Gondor, the whole thing is worth a read if for no other reason than for the sheer amount of work he put into estimating it.

Although it had suffered numerous assaults from the forces of Mordor, Gondor stood at the end of the Third Age as the most populous free realm in Middle Earth.

In the north, the fields of Anórien were well-populated, as were the Pelennor Fields surrounding the city of Minas Tirith. Minas Tirith (“the Tower of Guard” in Sindarin) was Gondor’s capital and probably one of its largest population centers. However, the neighboring city of Osgiliath, once Gondor’s capital and a great trading hub on the river Anduin, was ruined and almost totally depopulated.

Fortunately, southern Gondor had fared better. Shielded by the efforts of the defenders of Minas Tirith and the Rangers of Ithilien, the Southern Fiefs (totally ignored in Peter Jackson’s film adaptation) were populous and prosperous. With a temperate, Mediterranean climate*, we can imagine that the coast along the Bay of Belfalas was dotted with homesteads and farms. The city of Dol Amroth represented the crown jewel of Gondor’s south; though Tolkien never described the city, we can see glimpses of its majesty through his reverent description of its swan-knights – men of “high blood”, “tall… and proud with sea-grey eyes”.

So much for description. Can we find any hard numbers?

At face value, the Lord of the Rings is about a military conflict between good versus evil. Thus, we must rely on military statistics to get a more complete idea of Gondor’s demography. Indeed, since we can readily imagine Gondor was a highly martial society, built to weather constant assault by a persistent evil of untold power and ingenuity, determining the numerical strength of Gondor’s armies should help us find a rough estimate of Gondor’s overall population.

Let’s start with Minas Tirith. In her Atlas of Middle Earth, Karen Wynn Fonstad estimates that, at the Battle of Pelennor Fields, after summing up all the oblique references to various “out-companies”, the local garrison of Minas Tirith numbered only 2000 men.

Now we can rely on historical example to figure out how 2,000 men fits into the overall population of a city. The clearest and most direct parallel would be Constantinople, right at the time of its fall to the Ottomans. In 1453, Sultan Mehmed II’s massive Turkish army besieged the city of Constantinople. The Siege of Minas Tirith clearly echoes the 1453 Siege of Constantinople – a hopelessly outnumbered army defending the last fortress of a declining civilization against a vastly superior invader. Tolkien himself acknowledged the parallels, referring to Minas Tirith as a “half-ruinous Byzantine City” in his letters.
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In 1453, Constantinople had approximately 50,000 residents, and was able to muster a garrison of around 5,000 against the Turks. That corresponds to a rule-of-thumb per-capita militarization ratio of 10%. Before you gasp in horror and spill mead all over your scrolls – that’s a militarization ratio twice that of North Korea – remember that Minas Tirith was a fortress-city, serving an explicit military purpose. Applying our 10% ratio to Minas Tirith gives a population around 20,000. At the time of the siege, the city’s population was likely larger than this, as many residents of Anórien and the Pelennor must have fled into the safety of the city’s walls with the approach of Mordor’s host.

Now, on to the Southern Fiefs, the heart of Gondor’s population. The fear of an attack on the South by Mordor limited the South’s contribution to Minas Tirith’s defenses to but a “tithe of their strength”. In the Atlas, Fonstad pegs their number at roughly 3000. If we take the word “tithe” literally – a tenth – we can estimate that the Southern Fiefs had the capability of fielding 30,000 fighting men.

Of course, it would be unfair to apply Minas Tirith’s 10% DPRK-esque militarization ratio to the peaceful South in order to find its total population. Minas Tirith was a watchful fortress guarding against the evil of Mordor; the Southern Fiefs were places were people lived to prosper and multiply.

Again, we’ll have to rely on historical analogues to find an appropriate militarization ratio. With an area roughly similar to medieval England, comparing the Southern Fiefs to England around 1066, the year of the Norman invasion, would not be a bad choice. Unlike the fortress-cities of Minas Tirith and Constantinople, both England and the Southern Fiefs were probably agricultural and feudal, relying on a local levy system to raise troops for defense.
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Thanks to the Battle of Hastings, we have some reasonably accurate numbers about England’s military strength at this time – the English fyrd, or local levy, could muster around 14,000 men. Getting an accurate reading of medieval England’s overall population is harder, but the Domesday Book of 1086, compiled by William the Conqueror, provides a decent estimate of around 1.4 to 1.9 million. To make the math easy, let’s lean to the lower end of that range and estimate that England’s levies could muster 14,000 men out of a total population of 1.4 million – a militarization ratio of 1%. Apply that ratio to Gondor’s Southern Fiefs with their 30,000 men-at-arms, and we find a total population of roughly 3 million.

Since the Southern Fiefs represented the bulk of Gondor’s population, adding on the 20,000 of Minas Tirith, the people of Anórien and the scattered populations in the South and East probably amounts to little more than a rounding error. With that, we can come to a final estimate of Gondor’s total population at the end of the Third Age – somewhere between 3 and 4 million.

That concludes the Gondor section of my Demography of Middle-Earth; the next part will concentrate on Rohan.
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So by the end of the third age, Gondor had a population close to modern-day Berlin or Los Angelas.
 
S

Sushigod7

Member
Just found this thread after looking for Hobbit threads to talk about the movie. So glad I did I'm on my way this morning to go pick up a copy of The Silmarillion. Never read it and not sure why for some reason I had it in my head it was like a half finished work and wasn't that good. Happy to have a place to talk with like minded fans.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Sushigod7 said:
Just found this thread after looking for Hobbit threads to talk about the movie. So glad I did I'm on my way this morning to go pick up a copy of The Silmarillion. Never read it and not sure why for some reason I had it in my head it was like a half finished work and wasn't that good. Happy to have a place to talk with like minded fans.
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Enjoy what was the professor's most beloved work. You're about to explore the Legendarium and all it encompasses. From the origins of the world itself to the downfall of the last great evil before a new age of hope began.
 
F

fredrancour

Member
I find that Middle-Earth demographics post fascinating. One of the things that really caught my attention in the movie versions of things was how dang sparse humanity was. I assume it's because casting a bunch of extras is a bitch, and because the lord from southern gondor wasn't in the film. Really made things more terrifying when, even without the whole "Invading army desires genocide" thing, humanity still seemed one bad winter from extinction. I tried to get a handle on the population in the books when I re-read them but couldn't get anything other than "more than the movie," so it's nice to see this.
 
S

Sushigod7

Member
Edmond Dantès;51956706 said:
Enjoy what was the professor's most beloved work. You're about to explore the Legendarium and all it encompasses. From the origins of the world itself to the downfall of the last great evil before a new age of hope began.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Very eloquently put, going to start it tonight after my daughter is in bed.
 
R

RukusProvider

Banned
So how are they going to treat the Nazgul in the Hobbit?

In LOTR you see the beam come out of Minas Morgul and then the Nine run out. To me this show the Nine had been awakened and set out to get the ring.

However, in the Hobbit, it shows the Nine are in Dol Guldur and not at Minas Morgul.

Is PJ going to find some tie in from Dol Guldur to Minas Morgul since he's somewhat altering the story anyway with the Necromancer? Same with returning the Morgul blade back to the Witch King.

Sorry for butchering the spelling of the lore :(
 
S

sohois

Member
fredrancour said:
I find that Middle-Earth demographics post fascinating. One of the things that really caught my attention in the movie versions of things was how dang sparse humanity was. I assume it's because casting a bunch of extras is a bitch, and because the lord from southern gondor wasn't in the film. Really made things more terrifying when, even without the whole "Invading army desires genocide" thing, humanity still seemed one bad winter from extinction. I tried to get a handle on the population in the books when I re-read them but couldn't get anything other than "more than the movie," so it's nice to see this.
Click to expand...

It's worth bearing in mind that by the time of LOTR the peoples of Gondor and men in general had been on a long decline, a lot of their own making. At the height of their power, with Arnor in the north and Mordor still dormant the numbers would have been far greater; significant events that led to Gondor's state by the time of the books include the kinslaying, the great plague and of course the fall of Arnor by the Witch King. Rohan didn't even settle until late in the third age; before that Gondor probably spread all the way to Isengard on their own.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
Edmond Dantès;51675330 said:
But the very reason the Istari were sent was to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. They didn't abandon the Children of Iluvatar and only once did they relinquish their governorship of Arda (during the Fall of Numenor).

The theme of corruption caused by cursed relics is present in all of Tolkien's major works yes, a theme he borrowed predominantly from Norse/Welsh lore as well as Greek mythos (The Ring of Gyges).

His fairy tales were far more whimsical and comical in nature though, often parodying the established motifs found in fantasy stories. Farmer Giles of Ham even pokes fun at The Hobbit at times.
Click to expand...

Man, Sauron is marshalling his forces, has built a ring which grants him power over the entirety of Middle Earth, and half the Elves are getting out of dodge, and all the Valar sent were the five Istari? Probably not the brightest idea they've ever had. I mean yeah, Gandalf turned out pretty useful, but wow that Saruman fellow kinda went sour in the end.

Hey, so when Gandalf transitions from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White, in the films he makes it sound like his soul kinda skips out on Arda for awhile. I know when he fights the Balrog he announces he's a servant of the Secret Fire, or Eru. Does Gandalf go for a pow-wow with Illuvatar during this transition then? Is the transition from Grey to White ever really explained?

RukusProvider said:
So how are they going to treat the Nazgul in the Hobbit?

In LOTR you see the beam come out of Minas Morgul and then the Nine run out. To me this show the Nine had been awakened and set out to get the ring.

However, in the Hobbit, it shows the Nine are in Dol Guldur and not at Minas Morgul.

Is PJ going to find some tie in from Dol Guldur to Minas Morgul since he's somewhat altering the story anyway with the Necromancer? Same with returning the Morgul blade back to the Witch King.

Sorry for butchering the spelling of the lore :(
Click to expand...

There are something like 120 years between The Hobbit and The Fellowship, though, at the very least. Seems like ample time to move the Nazgul from one place to another. Even so, Elrond himself sounds pretty darn surprised by a Morgul blade popping up in Dol Goldur of all places, since they Nazgul are supposed to be buried in Angmar, and Saruman, not yet corrupted by Sauron (at least as far as I recall), is flat out unconvinced that the Nazgul are connected at all. It seems then, that the Wise themselves weren't under the impression that the Nazgul should be in Dol Goldur, and we never really see them there, at least not in the first Hobbit film, just the spirit of one.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
CorvoSol said:
Man, Sauron is marshalling his forces, has built a ring which grants him power over the entirety of Middle Earth, and half the Elves are getting out of dodge, and all the Valar sent were the five Istari? Probably not the brightest idea they've ever had. I mean yeah, Gandalf turned out pretty useful, but wow that Saruman fellow kinda went sour in the end.

Hey, so when Gandalf transitions from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White, in the films he makes it sound like his soul kinda skips out on Arda for awhile. I know when he fights the Balrog he announces he's a servant of the Secret Fire, or Eru. Does Gandalf go for a pow-wow with Illuvatar during this transition then? Is the transition from Grey to White ever really explained?
Click to expand...
He may have communed with Eru as an angel would with god. But Eru just restored his raiment, the transition to White was Gandalf's decision. He was to be what Saruman should have been. After his awakening atop of Zirak-zigil, it was Gwaihir who carried him to Lothlorien. There he clothed himself in White and assumed leadership of the Istari.

In his Grey raiment, he humbled himself greatly but he was a greater spirit that Saruman as Cirdan noticed on their first meeting:
"and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring... "
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The Unfinished Tales.


As the Grey, he took on the role of a sage advisor aiding the peoples of Middle-earth, as the White he assumed the role of a general, to actively combat Sauron.
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Edmond Dantès;52027014 said:
He may have communed with Eru as an angel would with god. But Eru just restored his raiment, the transition to White was Gandalf's decision. He was to be what Saruman should have been. After his awakening atop of Zirak-zigil, it was Gwaihir who carried him to Lothlorien. There he clothed himself in White and assumed leadership of the Istari.

In his Grey raiment, he humbled himself greatly but he was a greater spirit that Saruman as Cirdan noticed on their first meeting:
The Unfinished Tales.


As the Grey, he took on the role of a sage advisor aiding the peoples of Middle-earth, as the White he assumed the role of a general, to actively combat Sauron.
Click to expand...

It truly is amazing how little of this comes through in the movies. Well, I guess it's not amazing. Any time a book gets translated into a movie you're going to see less of what the book can cover. But wow, Tolkien's lore is so deep... as a writer myself, I am simply in awe of the effort he put into his world.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
AngmarsKing701 said:
It truly is amazing how little of this comes through in the movies. Well, I guess it's not amazing. Any time a book gets translated into a movie you're going to see less of what the book can cover. But wow, Tolkien's lore is so deep... as a writer myself, I am simply in awe of the effort he put into his world.
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Indeed. It's a world with a depth to rival our own.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
I always kind of figured the colors were indicative of their fields of expertise. Saruman dressed in white, and was a master of sciences, applying the machines he created to churn out Sauron's army and such. Gandalf was invested in the political sciences of Middle Earth, helping restore Kings to their thrones and being friend and acquaintance of a number of others. Radagast was like a Biologist, spending his time studying and tending plants and animals.

And the Blue Wizards, I dunno, cuz I don't remember them.
 
S

Sushigod7

Member
Edmond Dantès;52027014 said:
He may have communed with Eru as an angel would with god. But Eru just restored his raiment, the transition to White was Gandalf's decision. He was to be what Saruman should have been. After his awakening atop of Zirak-zigil, it was Gwaihir who carried him to Lothlorien. There he clothed himself in White and assumed leadership of the Istari.

In his Grey raiment, he humbled himself greatly but he was a greater spirit that Saruman as Cirdan noticed on their first meeting:
The Unfinished Tales.


As the Grey, he took on the role of a sage advisor aiding the peoples of Middle-earth, as the White he assumed the role of a general, to actively combat Sauron.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this need to read more, had no idea how this happened. You can now change into your white robe Edmond you are truly a leader.
 
L

Loxley

Member
Edmond Dantès;53007624 said:
I do wonder what other long forgotten tales by Tolkien are in Christopher's possession and if they'll see the light if the day.
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My absolute dream would be to see what Tolkien's take on the Robin Hood mythos would look like. No bias of course.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Loxley said:
My absolute dream would be to see what Tolkien's take on the Robin Hood mythos would look like. No bias of course.
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Certain elements of the Robin Hood mythos can be found in Tolkien's. The archery abilities of the Elves being the most obvious example.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Book recommendation: The Wisdom of the Shire
the-wisdom-of-the-shire.jpg

The Wisdom of the Shire is a practical and fun guide - for Tolkien fans everywhere - showing us how to apply the wisdom of The Hobbit to our everyday lives.

Hobbits are those small but brave little people, whose courage, integrity and loyalty allow them to triumph against odds that might appear overwhelming to the rest of us. Noble Smith has long believed there is much we can learn from Frodo's determination, Bilbo's sense of homeliness, Sam's fierce allegiance, and Merry and Pippin's love of food and fun. Like The Tao of Pooh, The Wisdom of the Shire is the first book to show Tolkien fans just how much there is to learn from those small but brave little people - the Hobbits.

Packed with amusing insights and fascinating trivia, this fun and insightful guide is all you need to complete your quest in life, and cast your cares into the fires of Mordor.
Click to expand...


It's a very sweet book, full of handy insight.
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
Candeldandel said:
Aww man, that's super cool :( I wish I could visit these places and see for myself.

Developing some serious wanderlust these last few months :(
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The Burren is a great windy expanse of broken rock with the occasional farm house, all divided by small free standing rock walls. It's a wild place, great for the soul.

Once you're there just go south a little to the cliffs of Moher, standing there will make you believe in Atlantis.

The west of Ireland is one of my favourite places.
 
C

Candeldandel

Member
Edmond Dantès;54231177 said:
Book recommendation: The Wisdom of the Shire
the-wisdom-of-the-shire.jpg


It's a very sweet book, full of handy insight.
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Oh my. This looks so ... hmm. Time to wander down to Powell's and see if they have a copy. Today! Though, I'm not seeing that lovely cover you've posted, Edmond. I hope I'll be able to find it.

Those Foliosociety books are such a tease, holy crap. Some day...
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
I asked this question in the Hobbit movie thread, but maybe it is better suited here.

How come Elrond didn't become the King of the Noldor in Middle-earth? He seems to deserve it as a birthright, since he is of Fingolfin's line. Wouldn't he be Turgon's heir? Why did the title pass on to Gil-galad, who is of the House of Finarfin?
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Megalosaro said:
I asked this question in the Hobbit movie thread, but maybe it is better suited here.

How come Elrond didn't become the King of the Noldor in Middle-earth? He seems to deserve it as a birthright, since he is of Fingolfin's line. Wouldn't he be Turgon's heir? Why did the title pass on to Gil-galad, who is of the House of Finarfin?
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After Turgon's death, rule passed to Finarfin's descendants.

Tolkien changed his mind regarding Gil-galad's lineage and even Christopher contradicted his father in the published Silmarillion. He made a mistake in assuming that a rough note stating that Gil-galad was Fingon's son rather than Orodreth's son was important, but it was just a passing idea that Tolkien would not develop.

Gil-galad was developed as a character and superseded Elrond somewhat in terms of kingship.

Elrond was also thought to have favored his Sindarin lineage; been a descendant of King Thingol, so therefore choosing not to exercise any right he might have had over Gil-galad.

And why he wasn't called King Elrond in the Legendarium? There was no need for a king after the War of the Last Alliance, too few to rule over.
 
F

fredrancour

Member
Edmond Dantès;54885831 said:
After Turgon's death, rule passed to Finarfin's descendants.

Tolkien changed his mind regarding Gil-galad's lineage and even Christopher contradicted his father in the published Silmarillion. He made a mistake in assuming that a rough note stating that Gil-galad was Fingon's son rather than Orodreth's son was important, but it was just a passing idea that Tolkien would not develop.

Gil-galad was developed as a character and superseded Elrond somewhat in terms of kingship.

Elrond was also thought to have favored his Sindarin lineage; been a descendant of King Thingol, so therefore choosing not to exercise any right he might have had over Gil-galad.

And why he wasn't called King Elrond in the Legendarium? There was no need for a king after the War of the Last Alliance, too few to rule over.
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Dang that's depressing. Sure didn't appreciate how tragic and norse-mythology-ish some of the "inevitable decay" bits of middle-earth are when I was a kid.
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
I started my yearly re-reading of LotR tonight. This will be my 13th re-reading of the book. The past 5 years I've skipped over the prologue and started with chapter 1. This year, I decided to read it.

I forgot how much juicy information there is in there. Particularly stuff about early shire history as well as information about how the book was constructed in-universe. I'm not entirely sure I'd recommend to reading it to a person picking it up for the first time, since it is quite a bit of an info dump, but as a seasoned Tolkien vet there is some great stuff in there.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Book recommendation: There and Back Again by Pat Murphy

77409.jpg

Benton Bailey, an asteroid miner in the backwaters of the galactic civilization, is swept up in an adventure when he retrieves a message pod drifting in space, and notifies the Farr Clone that he has it. The Farrs are the oldest, richest clone family in the galaxy, and they made their fortune by mapping the wormholes that allow faster-than-light travel. Along with the legendary Gitana, the Farrs have discovered a piece of an ancient alien artifact that may be a map of the entire wormhole system. Bailey's message pod contains word of where the rest of the map may be.
Click to expand...


A quirky novel borrowing themes from The Hobbit, not to mention the title. To say it's The Hobbit in space is doing an unjustice to it. Certainly worth tracking down a copy for Tolkien enthusiasts. There's also a bit of influence from The Hunting of the Snark by Lewis Carroll.
 
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