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[fredrancour]

It is a bit revisionist history from the writers of the film. The Nazgul were never entombed by the Dúnedain. They remained in Minas Morgul awaiting Sauron's reclamation of title after preparing himself in Dol Guldur as The Necromancer.

So they didn't participate in the dol guldur vs white council thing at all? I don't know shit about what's actually in the appendix so IDK how much of a liberty they're taking here.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So they didn't participate in the dol guldur vs white council thing at all? I don't know shit about what's actually in the appendix so IDK how much of a liberty they're taking here.

There's no detailed record of it. Only that Khamûl took charge of Dol Guldur after Sauron returned to Mordor before the White Council's attack. The actual Battle of Dol Guldur took place during the War of the Ring (along with many other skirmishes not mentioned in the film trilogy) which involved Galadriel leading a host and finally destroying Dol Guldur with her powers.

 

[CorvoSol]

Many Elves remained in Middle-earth. Legolas even established a colony away from Thranduil's kingdom.

Even after Legolas left, a certain number of Elves remained, those unwilling to go to Valinor. They would have suffered a fate not to disimilar to the Dwarves; dimishment. Their raiments dissipating and becoming specters that the race of men would be oblivious to.

That actually makes the whole end of Return of the King a lot less sad, I think. I always thought all the elves were gone and dwarves weren't ever going to come back to hang with men again, so basically when they killed Sauron and his ring, the whole fantasy aspect was done.

I mean, I know technically that from there things go on to our world as is, but its nice to be able to pretend there were still adventures to be had in Middle Earth after that. Fantasy tales always seem to end with such finality, and I always want to think there could be many more adventures afterward.

So it's nice to know there were still elves sticking around in Middle Earth after that.

 

[fredrancour]

That actually makes the whole end of Return of the King a lot less sad, I think. I always thought all the elves were gone and dwarves weren't ever going to come back to hang with men again, so basically when they killed Sauron and his ring, the whole fantasy aspect was done.

I mean, I know technically that from there things go on to our world as is, but its nice to be able to pretend there were still adventures to be had in Middle Earth after that. Fantasy tales always seem to end with such finality, and I always want to think there could be many more adventures afterward.

So it's nice to know there were still elves sticking around in Middle Earth after that.

It actually makes things more tragic in my eyes. If you're stuck waiting around til then end of the universe then it seems better to do it in valinor than as an earthly phantom.

 

[CorvoSol]

It actually makes things more tragic in my eyes. If you're stuck waiting around til then end of the universe then it seems better to do it in valinor than as an earthly phantom.

Yeah, but Arwen also has to deal with that, doesn't she? They can chill.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

That actually makes the whole end of Return of the King a lot less sad, I think. I always thought all the elves were gone and dwarves weren't ever going to come back to hang with men again, so basically when they killed Sauron and his ring, the whole fantasy aspect was done.

I mean, I know technically that from there things go on to our world as is, but its nice to be able to pretend there were still adventures to be had in Middle Earth after that. Fantasy tales always seem to end with such finality, and I always want to think there could be many more adventures afterward.

So it's nice to know there were still elves sticking around in Middle Earth after that.

Indeed.

There were still many adventures to be had and conflicts to be involved in after Sauron's demise. Dealing with the remaining dragons, the Cold Drakes of the Withered Heath would have been a test for many budding young warriors. The remaining Orcs of course would still be causing mischief, not to mention the other Balrog. The two Blue Wizards were still inhabiting Middle-earth too, so not all magic was lost.

 

[fredrancour]

Yeah, but Arwen also has to deal with that, doesn't she? They can chill.

I thought the whole half-elven-get-to-choose-mortality thing would effectively make her human? so her soul gets the get-out-of-arda-free card when she dies and she gets to move on. I think it was that way with beren and luthien at least- the elves were extra sad because her soul moving on as a mortal meant they'd be separated from her til the end of time.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I thought the whole half-elven-get-to-choose-mortality thing would effectively make her human? so her soul gets the get-out-of-arda-free card when she dies and she gets to move on. I think it was that way with beren and luthien at least- the elves were extra sad because her soul moving on as a mortal meant they'd be separated from her til the end of time.

Yes.

As Tolkien stated:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

She died not long after Aragorn (year 121 of the Fourth Age) and was freed from the confines of Arda.

 

[Candeldandel]

I thought the whole half-elven-get-to-choose-mortality thing would effectively make her human? so her soul gets the get-out-of-arda-free card when she dies and she gets to move on. I think it was that way with beren and luthien at least- the elves were extra sad because her soul moving on as a mortal meant they'd be separated from her til the end of time.

How bittersweet. The end of time... what a nice way to say 'forever'.

 

[fredrancour]

How bittersweet. The end of time... what a nice way to say 'forever'.

Not for middle earth. Myth cycles get to have nice coherent apocalypses. There's actually an apocalypse story for arda someplace, some eventual final battle with melkor. I think every soul gets to live happily ever after in the post-apocalypse world.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

How bittersweet. The end of time... what a nice way to say 'forever'.

There was a silver lining of sorts. That Elves and maybe Dwarves/Humans would inhabit the second Arda which would be the equivalent of a Kingdom of Heaven. Friends from each species would be reunited in the end in a paradise free from Melkor's influence.

 

[Candeldandel]

Not for middle earth. Myth cycles get to have nice coherent apocalypses. There's actually an apocalypse story for arda someplace, some eventual final battle with melkor. I think every soul gets to live happily ever after in the post-apocalypse world.

Heh, I wouldn't have mixed "post-apocalyptic" and "happily ever after", but I understand what you're saying.

There was a silver lining of sorts. That Elves and maybe Dwarves/Humans would inhabit the second Arda which would be the equivalent of a Kingdom of Heaven. Friends from each species would be reunited in the end in a paradise free from Melkor's influence.

That sounds lovely /siiigh I wouldn't mind that heaven

And yet. What incomprehensible lengths of time to endure, especially for immortal beings. Though it gives them a type of ending, I suppose.

 

[Megalosaro]

So Theonering.net had staff members point out things they liked about the sneak peak for Desolution of Smaug and I came across this.

"Tolkien’s dearth of female characters is troublesome, and I applaud Jackson and his team for taking the risk of inventing a bold new character who not only feels authentic to her culture and circumstances, but whose ferocity will have a special resonance with her fellow woman warriors in the audience."

I hate when people say stuff like this. It ignores the female characters that DO exist. Yes, women are largely absent from LotR and Hobbit, but his other writings are full of great female characters. Tolkien had a very interesting take on feminine strength and at the end of the day even a character that is constantly demonized as greedy and self-interested like Lobelia is ultimately shown to be strong of will.

TOR pisses me off sometimes. They're too busy sucking up to Peter Jackson. Frankly, I'm not even sure the people who run the site even like the books that much.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So Theonering.net had staff members point out things they liked about the sneak peak for Desolution of Smaug and I came across this.

"Tolkien’s dearth of female characters is troublesome, and I applaud Jackson and his team for taking the risk of inventing a bold new character who not only feels authentic to her culture and circumstances, but whose ferocity will have a special resonance with her fellow woman warriors in the audience."

I hate when people say stuff like this. It ignores the female characters that DO exist. Yes, women are largely absent from LotR and Hobbit, but his other writings are full of great female characters. Tolkien had a very interesting take on feminine strength and at the end of the day even a character that is constantly demonized as greedy and self-interested like Lobelia is ultimately shown to be strong of will.

TOR pisses me off sometimes. They're too busy sucking up to Peter Jackson. Frankly, I'm not even sure the people who run the site even like the books that much.

They've always been very PJ centric. It does allow them a unique insight into the films though having such a relationship with the production team.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Top 10 facts about J.R.R Tolkien to celebrate Tolkien Reading Day

1. Tolkien’s initials stood for John Ronald Reuel. As a child he was known as Ronald.

2. He was born in 1892 in Bloemfontein in the Orange Free State, now in South Africa.

3. When he was very young, he was bitten by a baboon spider in his garden but later said he had no memory of the event and no dislike of spiders.

4. He is the only person to appear on both a 2002 BBC list of the 100 Greatest Britons and a similar 2004 list of the 100 Greatest South Africans.

5. In 2009 the Forbes list in the US ranked Tolkien as the 5th top-earning dead celebrity.

6. The surname Tolkien is an anglicisation of the German name tollkühn, meaning ‘foolhardy’.

7. The Oxford Dictionary lists eight words brought into English by Tolkien including hobbit and warg.

8. Tolkien was nominated for the Nobel Literature Prize in 1961 by his friend CS Lewis.

9. He was rejected, in the words of one juror, because his style “has not in any way measured up to storytelling of the highest quality”.

10. Lord Of The Rings is the third best-selling work of fiction of all time, behind Don Quixote and A Tale Of Two Cities.

 

[Candeldandel]

3. When he was very young, he was bitten by a baboon spider in his garden but later said he had no memory of the event and no dislike of spiders.

And even managed to inadvertently name one! Though it's a scary thought, him being bitten by a dangerous spider at a young age; it could've turned out much differently O_O

 

[Edmond Dantès]

And even managed to inadvertently name one! Though it's a scary thought, him being bitten by a dangerous spider at a young age; it could've turned out much differently O_O

I think he created the characters of Shelob/Ungoliant subconsciously.

 

[CorvoSol]

So Theonering.net had staff members point out things they liked about the sneak peak for Desolution of Smaug and I came across this.

"Tolkien’s dearth of female characters is troublesome, and I applaud Jackson and his team for taking the risk of inventing a bold new character who not only feels authentic to her culture and circumstances, but whose ferocity will have a special resonance with her fellow woman warriors in the audience."

I hate when people say stuff like this. It ignores the female characters that DO exist. Yes, women are largely absent from LotR and Hobbit, but his other writings are full of great female characters. Tolkien had a very interesting take on feminine strength and at the end of the day even a character that is constantly demonized as greedy and self-interested like Lobelia is ultimately shown to be strong of will.

TOR pisses me off sometimes. They're too busy sucking up to Peter Jackson. Frankly, I'm not even sure the people who run the site even like the books that much.

I'm kinda confused by the "dearth" of female characters. I mean, not only do we have Galadriel, who is an extremely high profile character, we have female villains like Shelob, we have the exceptionally heroic Eowyn (even as a kid I thought Eowyn was kick ass), we have Arwen, who is strong in a different way. And of course, the unloved Lobelia Sackville-Baggins.

Yeah, there are no girls in the Fellowship, nor in the company of Thorin, but there are a lot of high profile female characters. Especially when you consider Luthien.

Sounds like a GameFAQs complaint. "Why are there no [group x] in this [game/book/movie]?"

But saying there's a dearth of female characters in Tolkien makes it sound like there aren't any and that the ones there are are all locked up in towers. Which makes no sense, because I mean, Eowyn is like the Samus of fantasy lit.

 

[Ezio]

Top 10 facts about J.R.R Tolkien to celebrate Tolkien Reading Day

Wait so you mean he never won the Nobel for Literature and he has some of the best selling books of all time? Wow, I know politics etc, but sometimes numbers like that just can't be wrong. Shame on the board or whomever decides that.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Wait so you mean he never won the Nobel for Literature and he has some of the best selling books of all time? Wow, I know politics etc, but sometimes numbers like that just can't be wrong. Shame on the board or whomever decides that.

These articles go into more detail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16440150

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...the-ring-nobel-prize-rejection_n_1188684.html

 

[Ezio]

These articles go into more detail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16440150

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...the-ring-nobel-prize-rejection_n_1188684.html

Read the article, I'm still at a loss for words.

 

[Loxley]

Had authors known predominantly for writing fantasy stories ever won a Nobel Prize for literature? Or even since?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Had authors known predominantly for writing fantasy stories ever won a Nobel Prize for literature? Or even since?

There have been authors who have written what could be regarded as 'fantasy', but no, no author predominantly known as a fantasy writer.

Selma Lagerlöf, William Faulkner and possibly Rudyard Kipling for certain stories with fantasy elements.

 

[PRjumpman124]

Excellent OT, I can tell I'm going to love this place. I've been reading Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien and it's really interesting. The friendship he shared with CS Lewis (another favorite author of mine) and the criticsm they had towards each other's work is of great interest too. Has Tom Bombadil been discussed yet?

 

[Megalosaro]

It's hard to say for sure without having been there, but it seems like Tolkien could have been a better friend to Lewis.

Their entire friendship, Tolkien pestered the hell out of Lewis to convert to Christianity, and then when he did, Tolkien got butthurt because Lewis convertered to the so-called "wrong" sect of Christianity. Not to mention how Tolkien practically disowned Lewis after he got married.

Despite all of this, Lewis only ever praised Tolkien whenever critics would attack Tolkien's work.

 

[B-Dubs]

I think he created the characters of Shelob/Ungoliant subconsciously.

This is exactly what I thought when I read that point. It certainly explains the evil spiders.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Excellent OT, I can tell I'm going to love this place. I've been reading Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien and it's really interesting. The friendship he shared with CS Lewis (another favorite author of mine) and the criticsm they had towards each other's work is of great interest too. Has Tom Bombadil been discussed yet?

Tom hasn't been discussed as of yet surprisingly.

The most discussed theories though are the following:

Tom is of the Valar; Tom and Goldberry equate to Aule and Yavanna.

Tom is of the Maiar.

Tom is a nature spirit.

Tom is the Music of the Ainur embodied.

Tom is a by-product of the Weaving of Arda.

 

[papercamm]

Tom hasn't been discussed as of yet surprisingly.

The most discussed theories though are the following:

Tom is of the Valar; Tom and Goldberry equate to Aule and Yavanna.

Tom is of the Maiar.

Tom is a nature spirit.

Tom is the Music of the Ainur embodied.

Tom is a by-product of the Weaving of Arda.

I've never heard of this theory before.

 

[PRjumpman124]

Tom hasn't been discussed as of yet surprisingly.

The most discussed theories though are the following:

Tom is of the Valar; Tom and Goldberry equate to Aule and Yavanna.

Tom is of the Maiar.

Tom is a nature spirit.

Tom is the Music of the Ainur embodied.

Tom is a by-product of the Weaving of Arda.

Tom was completely unaffected by the One Ring though so I'd say he definitely couldn't be a Maiar (seeing how Gandalf is himself a Maiar and avoided contact with it from fear of being corrupted). I've always thought of him as an avatar of sorts for Eru in Arda, though at the same time I think Tolkien denies this in one of his letters.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I've never heard of this theory before.

The theory claims that the Music of the Ainur is still prevalent in Arda and that Tom is an embodiement of it thus explaining his constant singing. It also details why Tom be regarded as the last if Sauron were victorious as the Music was the foundation of Arda and thus would be the only thing left if all came to ruin.

It also explains why he was there before Melkor, who descended into Arda with the Valar.

 

[PRjumpman124]

The theory claims that the Music of the Ainur is still prevalent in Arda and that Tom is an embodiement of it thus explaining his constant singing. It also details why Tom be regarded as the last if Sauron were victorious as the Music was the foundation of Arda and thus would be the only thing left if all came to ruin.

It also explains why he was there before Melkor, who descended into Arda with the Valar.

Would that make Old Man Willow the embodiment of Melkor's disruption of the Music?

Edit: Or whatever the equivalent of embodiment is if you're referring to a tree.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Would that make Old Man Willow the embodiment of Melkor's disruption of the Music?

Edit: Or whatever the equivalent of embodiment is if you're referring to a tree.

Old Man Willow would still be regarded as a nature spirit, along with the Stone Giants and Caradhras.

 

[Loxley]

So here's something random I came across while cleaning out one of old hard drives, figured I'd share it...

...a drawing of the Battle of Five Armies I did probably seven years ago. For whatever reason it's actually cropped from the original version, I remember having borders with Khuzdul script written at the top and bottom.

My art has come quite a ways :lol.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So here's something random I came across while cleaning out one of old hard drives, figured I'd share it...

...a drawing of the Battle of Five Armies I did probably seven years ago. For whatever reason it's actually cropped from the original version, I remember having borders with Khuzdul script written at the top and bottom.

My art has some quite a ways :lol.

Really good. I like how Dain (if that is Dain) has a mohawk. You got there before Alan Lee and John Howe.

 

[Candeldandel]

So here's something random I came across while cleaning out one of old hard drives, figured I'd share it...

...a drawing of the Battle of Five Armies I did probably seven years ago. For whatever reason it's actually cropped from the original version, I remember having borders with Khuzdul script written at the top and bottom.

My art has some quite a ways :lol.

OMG YAY!! I love it Your style totally reminds me of a close friend's when he was in high school; D&D characters, orcs & stuff, so pretty similar, haha. Nostalgia! I like the guy about four people in on the left side, with the super-skinny sword

 

[CorvoSol]

Tom hasn't been discussed as of yet surprisingly.

The most discussed theories though are the following:

Tom is of the Valar; Tom and Goldberry equate to Aule and Yavanna.

Tom is of the Maiar.

Tom is a nature spirit.

Tom is the Music of the Ainur embodied.

Tom is a by-product of the Weaving of Arda.

Tom can't be a Maiar, though, can he? The Ring has no effect on him at all, and it seems to have an effect on all other Maiar. Gandalf fears it, Sauron loves it, Saruman covets it, the Balrog seems drawn to it. Tom and Goldberry have to be something greater than Maiar, because the Ring has no effect on them at all.

What about Tom being the actual Eru? Think about it. The ring has no effect on him, Gandalf comes to talk to him after the Rings' powers have ended, Tom seems largely unafraid of the world around him.

 

[Megalosaro]

I doubt he's Eru. They specifically point out at the Council of Elrond that the Tom Bombadil would be the last person in Middle-earth to fall against Sauron and his forces, but eventually he would fall too.

I highly doubt Eru Illuvatar could be defeated by a (greatly diminished) Maiar and his rabble of minions

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Tom can't be a Maiar, though, can he? The Ring has no effect on him at all, and it seems to have an effect on all other Maiar. Gandalf fears it, Sauron loves it, Saruman covets it, the Balrog seems drawn to it. Tom and Goldberry have to be something greater than Maiar, because the Ring has no effect on them at all.

What about Tom being the actual Eru? Think about it. The ring has no effect on him, Gandalf comes to talk to him after the Rings' powers have ended, Tom seems largely unafraid of the world around him.

Eru could never enter into Arda lest the planet be broken. Arda could not contain such power. Plus, as stated at the Council of Elrond, not even Tom had the power to withstand Sauron. Eru would obviously have no such issue as he created Sauron.

 

[CorvoSol]

I doubt he's Eru. They specifically point out at the Council of Elrond that the Tom Bombadil would be the last person in Middle-earth to fall against Sauron and his forces, but eventually he would fall too.

I highly doubt Eru Illuvatar could be defeated by a (greatly diminished) Maiar and his rabble of minions

Eru could never enter into Arda lest the planet be broken. Arda could not contain such power. Plus, as stated at the Council of Elrond, not even Tom had the power to withstand Sauron. Eru would obviously have no such issue as he created Sauron.

Well okay, but they wouldn't even know he was Eru, would they? Granted Tolkien probably wouldn't have said that if he'd intended Tom to be Eru.

Still, I don't think Tom is just a Maiar, because if he had been the Ring should've tempted him, same as it did everyone else. He's got to either be a Valar or some weird anomaly like Ungoliant.

 

[Megalosaro]

My personal take is that Tom is some sort of embodiment of Arda. How strong he truly is up for debate. I don't THINK he's as mighty as a Vala, but I think he's stronger than the Maia. In any case, they specifically state that he was there before Morgoth entered Arda, and Morgoth was the first Ainur to come to the world

 

[fredrancour]

Old Man Willow would still be regarded as a nature spirit, along with the Stone Giants and Caradhras.

....holy crap. I thought the movie crew made them up, but I just googled them. They were actually in the book. I hated that bit of the movie because I thought the book just featured them running from a normal old storm, and they were throwing in a random cg scene because they were worried about people disliking the leisurely pacing.

Wonder what else I'm mis-remembering?

 

[CorvoSol]

....holy crap. I thought the movie crew made them up, but I just googled them. They were actually in the book. I hated that bit of the movie because I thought the book just featured them running from a normal old storm, and they were throwing in a random cg scene because they were worried about people disliking the leisurely pacing.

Wonder what else I'm mis-remembering?

It's okay, my dad forgot all about the Necromancer being in the Hobbit.

 

[Loxley]

....holy crap. I thought the movie crew made them up, but I just googled them. They were actually in the book. I hated that bit of the movie because I thought the book just featured them running from a normal old storm, and they were throwing in a random cg scene because they were worried about people disliking the leisurely pacing.

Wonder what else I'm mis-remembering?

To be fair, the Stone Giants where mentioned in - literally - one sentence in The Hobbit. Jackson greatly expanded upon their "involvement" in the story.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Well okay, but they wouldn't even know he was Eru, would they? Granted Tolkien probably wouldn't have said that if he'd intended Tom to be Eru.

Still, I don't think Tom is just a Maiar, because if he had been the Ring should've tempted him, same as it did everyone else. He's got to either be a Valar or some weird anomaly like Ungoliant.

I think the Nature Spirit and Embodiment of Music theories have the most credence.

Goldberry also seems to be a Nature Spirit considering her close affinity to the Withywindle tributary.

A Vala would easily have the might to deal with Sauron, especially Aule who Sauron was alligned with before joining Melkor's ranks.

 

[CorvoSol]

I think the Nature Spirit and Embodiment of Music theories have the most credence.

Goldberry also seems to be a Nature Spirit considering her close affinity to the Withywindle tributary.

A Vala would easily have the might to deal with Sauron, especially Aule who Sauron was alligned with before joining Melkor's ranks.

But a Vala wouldn't bother interfering for the same reason that the Vala don't bother interfering. Last time they did, stuff got busted.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

But a Vala wouldn't bother interfering for the samereason that the Vala don't bother interfering. Last time they did, stuff got busted.

A Vala like Aule wouldn't stand by and allow Sauron to wreak havoc while inhabiting Middle-earth. They were govenors of Arda, it was their duty imposed on them by Eru to aid his children.

The War of Wrath was necessary to deal with Melkor, but it wasn't the Valar who sunk much of Beleriand, neither was it them who sunk Numenor, it was Eru himself.

 

[Megalosaro]

When the Valar get involved though, they don't do it stealthfully. The most discreet intervention I can think of was Ulmo, who came to the shores of Beleriand. But he still did so openly as himself.

Tom isn't there to help the people of middle-earth. He is there for himself. He does things that interest himself and Goldberry

 

[Edmond Dantès]

When the Valar get involved though, they don't do it stealthfully. The most discreet intervention I can think of was Ulmo, who came to the shores of Beleriand. But he still did so openly as himself.

Tom isn't there to help the people of middle-earth. He is there for himself. He does things that interest himself and Goldberry

His general disinterest in the peoples of Middle-earth lends credence to the Nature Spirit theory. More concerned with his patch of land than Iluvatar's children. An enigma representing the spirit of the Oxfordshire countryside indeed.

 

[RukusProvider]

Edmond,

Would you please explain dragon sickness?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Edmond,

Would you please explain dragon sickness?

Essentially, it is the very act of succumbing to the lust of 'gold upon which a dragon has long brooded'.

That people would be bewitched and enchanted by dragon-hoards and thus take actions that would estrange them from their peers, in a similar manner to the effects of the One Ring. In effect a curse would be laid upon them for their actions.

The theme of cursed treasure had been a powerful narrative thread in earlier works by Tolkien, especially in the tale of 'The Nauglafring' and this theme owes much to the story of Fafnir's and Sigurd's treasure (also known as Andvari's Hoard and Das Rheingold) from the Volsunga Saga. The Volsung's treasure on the one hand (in Germanic and Norse myth) and the gold of the Rodothlim (Book of Lost Tales), the Silmarils and indeed the One Ring on the other (within Tolkien's Legendarium) indiscriminately bring doom to all their owners one by one, although a few like Bilbo, Beren and Earendil escape the curse's full effects.

This theme appealed greatly to Tolkien, so much so that it inspired one of his finest poems; The Hoard, also known as Iumonna Gold Galdre Bewunden, translated; ancient gold, entangled with enchantment. The poem tells of a wonderful treasure of gold and silver and jewels owned successively by Elves, a lone Dwarf, a Dragon and a hero who becomes king, all of whom perish miserably, leaving the hoard in the end lost forever, buried in a grassy mound. The poem also makes it clear that the original owners are chained to the hoard, possessed by their own possession.

There is another type of curse if you will, distinct from a curse laid upon a hoard of treasure, that of the dragon's gaze. A dragon's ability to directly manipulate the minds of those who look into his eyes and to individually curse any whose name he knows. In other tales, both Turin Turambar and his sister make the mistake of making eye contact with a dragon (Glaurung) and are beguiled and his knowledge of who they are enable him to craft specific curses that set both on the road to incest and suicide.

In terms of the Volsunga saga, there is no mention of whether Sigurd looks into Fafnir's eyes while the dragon is still alive, but he does initially give a false name to avoid Fafnir's dying curse. As for The Hobbit's hero; Bilbo wisely avoids meeting Smaug's gaze and giving his real name.

Despite all of this, relatively few succumb to dragon sickness in The Hobbit as published. Bilbo (very briefly), Thorin himself (who heroically throws off its influence during the Battle of the Five Armies

Spoiler

and dies free from it

), most of Thorin's fellow Dwarves to a lesser degree and the Master of Lake Town at some later date.

Ultimately, Thror's recovered treasure brings prosperity and peace to the region in the hands of those who can resist the dragon sickness; Dain (who renews the Kingdom under the mountain) and Bard (who reestablishes and rebuilds Dale and eventually extends his realm all the way down to include the rebuilt Lake Town). Those who cannot resist meet with personal disaster (the Master of Lake Town's death from starvation does not harm Esgaroth's recovery though) in accordance with the established theme.

This forms a stark contrast with Tolkien's models, the Volsung hoard is lost, as is the gold of the Rodothlim and also the treasure guarded by Beowulf's dragon. Tolkien in The Hobbit creates a near-catastrophe followed by a happy ending appropriate to a fairy story, in keeping with his ideas of eucatastrophe.

Bilbo doesn't end up with a river of gold (although he does get a fair portion), but the gold is used instead of hoarded and makes his world a better place.