• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Mass Effect Community Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Patryn

Member
What's wrong with fighting reaper saren? I always have a bit of good fun with that fight, espcially when you use biotics like lift and singularity and just see him floating around while you take shotgun shots.

More importantly I'm not sure why boss battles are even a concern, I hate how people put so much of an emphasis on them.
Because if you're playing a non-biotic class, landing tech abilities is tough when he's jumping around.

As an adept, he's a joke because lift just leaves him vulnerable to getting blasted.

He's not really difficult either way, but I took him out in under 45 seconds (not including cutscene) as an adept recently, but it took me a couple minutes as an engineer. This is on hardcore, btw.
 
Ryder & Co have their Ark arrive at the Helius Cluster and the game is set there. The Ark is basically our new Citadel. I'm guessing the sequel will have us exploring a different cluster where another Ark arrived which will basically be the same as ours but with a few variations so we have a familiar place to visit.
 
Because if you're playing a non-biotic class, landing tech abilities is tough when he's jumping around.

As an adept, he's a joke because lift just leaves him vulnerable to getting blasted.

He's not really difficult either way, but I took him out in under 45 seconds (not including cutscene) as an adept recently, but it took me a couple minutes as an engineer. This is on hardcore, btw.
As an Engineer wouldn't you want Liara or Kaiden as permanent party members?
 
Best boss in the series was probably the Yrgg Shadow Broker.

I think I enjoyed most of the DLC boss fights.

The ones in the main titles didn't do much for me... and the Reaper baby was just ridiculous on several levels.

But Kai Leng was the nadir of shitty boss fights, both times.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I really like the Praetorian fights in Mass Effect 2. That game strikes this weird yet incredibly satisfying blend of third person shooter combat with pressure based min/maxing of skills and abilities. I can't quite explain it. Climaxes like Horizon really personify it. You're basically fighting back waves, so it's as uninspired as it gets, but I felt a great sense of reward being able to master my class and squad to chew through those waves as efficiently as possible. Then the Praetorian hits and it's a like a big bullet sponge you have to chip away at as quickly as possible while maximising crowd control.

Plus the sound design was really memorable, and the Collectors in general are aesthetically interesting.
 
Better yet just round the husks up in a nice area and drop a shot with the blackstorm singularity launcher/heavy weapon. Probably the most valuable ME2 DLC weapon aside from the Mattock.

Was kind of sad they got rid of heavy weapons in favour of one-time pickups in ME3. I hope we get some serious firepower in Andromeda.
 

Ivory Samoan

Gold Member
Playing through it again, I am reminded how much I hate Pinnacle Station's time trials. That is all.

That Pinnacle Station vista though..... I literally touchdown at their space dock, get out and peep the view from the deck, get back in my Normandy and get the hell out of dodge.
 

diaspora

Member
Better yet just round the husks up in a nice area and drop a shot with the blackstorm singularity launcher/heavy weapon. Probably the most valuable ME2 DLC weapon aside from the Mattock.

Was kind of sad they got rid of heavy weapons in favour of one-time pickups in ME3. I hope we get some serious firepower in Andromeda.
The Crusader was serious firepower. I kinda wish Praetorians were in me3 for that alone.
 

Caboose

Member
I hope they balance the romance options a little better this time around instead of making it incredibly clear Liara should be your waifu. Talk about writer's pet.
 
I hope they balance the romance options a little better this time around instead of making it incredibly clear Liara should be your waifu. Talk about writer's pet.

I mean that was kind of the point. They even stated before the 3rd game came out that the payoff for staying loyal to your Mass Effect 1 love interest would be more visible. It's why there's such a big focus on Ashley/Kaidan and Liara throughout the game.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I just want BioWare to blur the lines in their narrative and romance choices and stop making it so overtly gamey with obvious win states. I don't deny that ambiguity in game narrative and dialogue coupled with behind-the-scenes game systems tracking outcomes is much harder to do than making direction and choices transparent, but when successful it's so much more believable and interesting. Less puzzle-like "magic paragon/renegade prompt for instant win" narrative and romance, and more just choices with varying outcomes.

I think the moment you step back and consider a "perfect playthrough" in terms of choices made is when a role playing narrative has failed. And I think that's why the Kaiden/Ashley choice from ME1 is still so memorable, along with the Mordin climax in ME3.
 
I'm not entirely sure I'd define the Ashley/Kaidan choice and the cure/don't cure the genophage decision as being a virtue in ambiguous narrative design when there's very clearly a right and wrong outcome in both scenarios.

The player choice statistics they released a while back show that an overwhelming amount of people choose Ashley and decide to cure the genophage. No one wants to kill Mordin and Wrex and no one wants to pick the boring whiney biotic man over the xenophobic female soldier.
 

Weiss

Banned
But there's a ton of subtle variations to the Genophage arc that make it incredible. Context is changed depending on the choices you've made across two previous titles, and then you get even more choices thrown at you.

Whether Wrex or Wreav is the leader, whether Eve lives or dies, whether it's Mordin or Padok, changes so much of the fundamental context of the entire arc. It can be the rebirth of a dying race, a tenuous alliance with a war hungry madman, the personal redemption of a guilty scientist, the start of a civil war on Tuchanka, or even end up with the freaking Rachni colonizing the place for themselves.

It's a far cry from running into the Reaper Baby regardless of what you did at the Collector Base.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'm not entirely sure I'd define the Ashley/Kaidan choice and the cure/don't cure the genophage decision as being a virtue in ambiguous narrative design when there's very clearly a right and wrong outcome in both scenarios.

The player choice statistics they released a while back show that an overwhelming amount of people choose Ashley and decide to cure the genophage. No one wants to kill Mordin and Wrex and no one wants to pick the boring whiney biotic man over the xenophobic female soldier.

I'll give you genophage maybe, but not Ashley/Kaiden. That's entirely the fault of the writers making boring characters and not an issue with choice itself. The genophage I give credence because it's layered and a state of Mordin Lives / Wrex Dies is possible if difficult. It's not entirely one dimensional. Plus I know several people who popped off Mordin because they weren't convinced in curing the genophage.

So many of the other choices are though. BioWare has no concept of moral ambiguity. And I'm not even talking thought provoking ambiguity, but simply scenarios where outcomes resonate from one choice or the other with variations on impact. The reasoning you give for the genophage lacking outcome ambiguity is actually a good point, because almost all the choices across the series leading up to that climax are too lacking. You're right; nobody wants to kill Wrex. So the ME1 Wrex confrontation is boring in the grand scheme of things because the magic red/blue dialogue option will fix it.

I hope Andromeda steers away from this puzzle-like win-state approach to dialogue and narrative. Just give choices, and have outcomes.
 

Yeul

Member
I hope Andromeda steers away from this puzzle-like win-state approach to dialogue and narrative. Just give choices, and have outcomes.

That's my hope as well. Honestly with regards to dialogue I'd like to be able to stop "gaming" the system so to speak and approach things through tone. DA2 did this but I didn't like it there because it felt like mood swings. As in, blue, purple, red options and if you hardline those tones the Hawke you played just sounds inflexible and silly. DA:I did better with the tone approach, though. If ME:A uses that approach it probably has the potential to be better than DA:I because the set nature of the character of "Ryder" versus the variation of races with the Inquisitor. I didn't even play a renegade in the original trilogy because of how ridiculous it could be at times/how it locked you out of certain avenues unless you went absolute extreme on either end and I want to try a new archetype in ME:A without the feeling of being urged to go in another direction.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'm curious as to what RPG you believe is the ideal scenario for Andromeda to base it's storytelling style and decisions around.

Fallout 1/2, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Witcher, hell even older BioWare stuff.

I'm not asking for super complex narrative arc diversity that some of my examples have (I'm totes cool with the general linearity of Mass Effect), more that when the choices present themselves the potentially undesirable traits within outcomes are not instantly and effortlessly negated by magic blue/red dialogue options.

With Mass Effect many seemingly difficult and potentially consiquential scenarios are rendered redundant due to the paragon/renegade system. It turns what should be organic development of events based on your chosen involvement into puzzle-like scenario engagement where choosing the red/blue dialogue will almost always bail you out and avoid collateral.
 

Patryn

Member
As an Engineer wouldn't you want Liara or Kaiden as permanent party members?

I was rolling with Wrex and Garrus or Ashley. I prefer having my squadmates go for weapon punch.

That Pinnacle Station vista though..... I literally touchdown at their space dock, get out and peep the view from the deck, get back in my Normandy and get the hell out of dodge.

Again, I actually don't mind or actively like Pinnacle Station. Except for the Time Trials. Those are just so annoying because there's very little wiggle room, you have to constantly be moving, and having a squadmate get in your way can be the difference between success and failure.

I really like the Praetorian fights in Mass Effect 2. That game strikes this weird yet incredibly satisfying blend of third person shooter combat with pressure based min/maxing of skills and abilities. I can't quite explain it. Climaxes like Horizon really personify it. You're basically fighting back waves, so it's as uninspired as it gets, but I felt a great sense of reward being able to master my class and squad to chew through those waves as efficiently as possible. Then the Praetorian hits and it's a like a big bullet sponge you have to chip away at as quickly as possible while maximising crowd control.

Plus the sound design was really memorable, and the Collectors in general are aesthetically interesting.

That, honestly, I think is my favorite "boss" encounter, at least the one of Horizon. It can be annoying, but I feel like it's the most well-done, although I'd still hesitate to call it "good".
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I always rolled with whoever I wanted to spend time with. Infiltrator was so op as fuck it didn't really matter.
 

Patryn

Member
I always rolled with whoever I wanted to spend time with. Infiltrator was so op as fuck it didn't really matter.

Honestly, all classes are totally doable and not that difficult. The only difference is that certain enemies go down faster with certain classes.

It just so happens that Saren is really susceptible to Lift, meaning Biotic classes have an advantage.

Although if I had to argue for the most powerful class in ME1, it'd be a Bastion with fully upgraded Stasis. At that point it's just unfair, since any enemy basically just has to sit there and die without being able to do anything.
 
Fallout 1/2, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Witcher, hell even older BioWare stuff.

I'm not asking for super complex narrative arc diversity that some of my examples have (I'm totes cool with the general linearity of Mass Effect), more that when the choices present themselves the potentially undesirable traits within outcomes are not instantly and effortlessly negated by magic blue/red dialogue options.

I'm assuming you mean The Witcher 1 and not the later games, because The Witcher 3 is probably the most "gamey" win-state example thus far and the antithesis of the argument (I think) you're trying to make here. TW3 spoiler:
Your ending is literally determined on whether or not you pressed the right dialogue option in 4-5 specific occasions with Ciri, ie no natural flow or ability to control, just mash your face on the keyboard to get the bad ending or know what the right choices are from a guide/get lucky and get the good ending where she either becomes a (witcher or Empress).

I love those games but I'm not entirely sure that's the type of narrative BioWare should aspire to have. I'll take a system where my dialogue choices are determined by skill points and paragon/renegade score (Mass Effect, Fallout: New Vegas) over a system where I'm just obtusely guessing what I think are the right choices and regretting things later.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
If the character's actions do not accurately represent the chosen dialogue then yes that's bad. If the results of your choices are undesirable upon outcome then I don't feel that is bad at all. That's life. That's organic. That's how choice and consiquence believably play out. You make decisions and the ramifications are not perfectly predictable. That's what I want to curb in Mass Effect. Even stat heavy dialogue system games like most of my examples generally try to avoid this. They engage you in shaping your character but the outcome from your interaction isn't linear or perfectly predictable.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 suffer from the problem of engaging you with faux dialogue conflicts that are resolved perfectly with red/blue choices. There's no real weight or believability. You'll always be able to talk yourself out of something, into somewhere, stop someone dying, or resolve otherwise complex situation instantaneously with magic red/blue speech. Gun against your head? Paragon/renegade your way out. Works every time.
 
If the character's actions do not accurately represent the chosen dialogue then yes that's bad. If the results of your choices are undesirable upon outcome then I don't feel that is bad at all. That's life. That's organic. That's how choice and consiquence believably play out. You make decisions and the ramifications are not perfectly predictable. That's what I want to curb in Mass Effect. Even stat heavy dialogue system games like most of my examples generally try to avoid this. They engage you in shaping your character but the outcome from your interaction isn't linear or perfectly predictable.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 suffer from the problem of engaging you with faux dialogue conflicts that are resolved perfectly with red/blue choices. There's no real weight or believability. You'll always be able to talk yourself out of something, into somewhere, stop someone dying, or resolve otherwise complex situation instantaneously with magic red/blue speech. Gun against your head? Paragon/renegade your way out. Works every time.

I disagree entirely with the bolded but I feel like I'm dragging this community thread down a philosophical rabbit hole unrelated to Mass Effect, so out of respect towards you and the other posters here I'll just concede and admit defeat on this topic. My apologies.
 

Sou Da

Member
If the character's actions do not accurately represent the chosen dialogue then yes that's bad. If the results of your choices are undesirable upon outcome then I don't feel that is bad at all. That's life. That's organic. That's how choice and consiquence believably play out. You make decisions and the ramifications are not perfectly predictable. That's what I want to curb in Mass Effect. Even stat heavy dialogue system games like most of my examples generally try to avoid this. They engage you in shaping your character but the outcome from your interaction isn't linear or perfectly predictable.

Mass Effect 2 and 3 suffer from the problem of engaging you with faux dialogue conflicts that are resolved perfectly with red/blue choices. There's no real weight or believability. You'll always be able to talk yourself out of something, into somewhere, stop someone dying, or resolve otherwise complex situation instantaneously with magic red/blue speech. Gun against your head? Paragon/renegade your way out. Works every time.


If you wanna see how BW fans tend to deal with that look at DA:O with the Dwarf Ruler choice, everyone chose the old man because he was kind to them but they didn't actually bother to look into his history. Turns he was incredibly prejudiced against the lower castes.

The younger candidate was more progressive on that front, but he was a bit of arrogant dick so no one chose him and everyone on the BSN cried bullshit and felt cheated because the choice wasn't incredibly predictable.


Same thing for Bull betraying you if you keep him loyal to the Qun but I have no idea how people didn't see that coming.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I disagree entirely with the bolded but I feel like I'm dragging this community thread down a philosophical rabbit hole unrelated to Mass Effect, so out of respect towards you and the other posters here I'll just concede and admit defeat on this topic. My apologies.

Eh, no apology necessary. There are a ton of ways to make a video game and construct narrative and choices and what works for you is just as valid as anything else. Mass Effect could really go either way. I personally like stat based dialogue systems combined with organic development that isn't easy-win based on numbers, but that's just because I feel more immersed in that no-guarantees of life. It's a fine line though, because game narrative is still ultimately artifical, and being totally undercut and robbed of your choice sucks.

I think a better example of where I felt cheapness in the series reactive choices are the Mass Effect 2 NPC conflicts, like Jack vs Miranda and Tali vs Legion. Instead of an organic conflict where the NPCs act and behave with a convincing autonomy with you stuck in the middle, you can easy paragon your way out of it. Do the side quests and paragon through those. Then paragon through the triggered argument. You could ignore the actual dialogue and as long as you hit those blue words everyone will be okay.

I just find that boring and very unnatural. Like your the puppetmaster.

EDIT: Yeah see, what Sou Da is talking about. That kind of complexity is interesting. It's like BW fans want the story to pander to them and be exactly as they shape it, instead of reacting to them. Iron Bull betraying is a decent example. Encouraging him to remain loyal to his people does not and should not guarantee he stays loyal to you. His character should just be a stagnant template for you to mould as you see fit, but a believable identity with his own beliefs and motifs. You engage, you might even influence, but you can't perfectly predict the course. When a supporting cast has a convincing illusion of autonomy it makes them all the more believable to me, and thus even more fun to engage with.
 

Sou Da

Member
Eh, no apology necessary. There are a ton of ways to make a video game and construct narrative and choices and what works for you is just as valid as anything else. Mass Effect could really go either way. I personally like stat based dialogue systems combined with organic development that isn't easy-win based on numbers, but that's just because I feel more immersed in that no-guarantees of life. It's a fine line though, because game narrative is still ultimately artifical, and being totally undercut and robbed of your choice sucks.

I think a better example of where I felt cheapness in the series reactive choices are the Mass Effect 2 NPC conflicts, like Jack vs Miranda and Tali vs Legion. Instead of an organic conflict where the NPCs act and behave with a convincing autonomy with you stuck in the middle, you can easy paragon your way out of it. Do the side quests and paragon through those. Then paragon through the triggered argument. You could ignore the actual dialogue and as long as you hit those blue words everyone will be okay.

I just find that boring and very unnatural. Like your the puppetmaster.

EDIT: Yeah see, what Sou Da is talking about. That kind of complexity is interesting. It's like BW fans want the story to pander to them and be exactly as they shape it, instead of reacting to them. Iron Bull betraying is a decent example. Encouraging him to remain loyal to his people does not and should not guarantee he stays loyal to you. His character should just be a stagnant template for you to mould as you see fit, but a believable identity with his own beliefs and motifs. You engage, you might even influence, but you can't perfectly predict the course. When a supporting cast has a convincing illusion of autonomy it makes them all the more believable to me, and thus even more fun to engage with.

I was going to write a whole thing and then I thought about it wanted to ask why the hell Weekes isn't the lead writer for Andromeda?

I wonder if the whole ME3 backlash turned him away from it.
 

Big Nikus

Member
If you wanna see how BW fans tend to deal with that look at DA:O with the Dwarf Ruler choice, everyone chose the old man because he was kind to them but they didn't actually bother to look into his history. Turns he was incredibly prejudiced against the lower castes.

The younger candidate was more progressive on that front, but he was a bit of arrogant dick so no one chose him and everyone on the BSN cried bullshit and felt cheated because the choice wasn't incredibly predictable.

It was the hardest choice I've had to make in a BioWare game. I went with the young Dwarf King because he was more progressive but it was hard as hell, and I kept talking to him like he was a piece of shit (and he was) so he knew that I helped him because it would benefit the people, not because I liked him.
 

Patryn

Member
If nothing else, I'd like them to get away from the Top Right -> Noble, "good" choice, Bottom Right -> Seflish, "evil" choice.

It's a shame that I've been trained to just constantly pick top right. I prefer how Dragon Age mixes things up so that you actually have to pay attention to what the choices are to make a decision. Give us a tone indicator to help out, and then have people choose off that.

Frankly, I think I'd also like them to experiment with timed dialogue a la Alpha Protocol.
 

Sou Da

Member
If nothing else, I'd like them to get away from the Top Right -> Noble, "good" choice, Bottom Right -> Seflish, "evil" choice.

It's a shame that I've been trained to just constantly pick top right. I prefer how Dragon Age mixes things up so that you actually have to pay attention to what the choices are to make a decision. Give us a tone indicator to help out, and then have people choose off that.

Frankly, I think I'd also like them to experiment with timed dialogue a la Alpha Protocol.

So long as the pause mechanic stays in combat, I don't want this. If I have all the time in the world to line up a shot then I should have all the time in the world to pick a conversation option. Besides Bioware seems pretty attached to the idea of paraphrases which doesn't mesh well with timed conversations.
Also I want to be able to read the full line which also doesn't work with that.
 

Patryn

Member
So long as the pause mechanic stays in combat, I don't want this. If I have all the time in the world to line up a shot then I should have all the time in the world to pick a conversation option. Besides Bioware seems pretty attached to the idea of paraphrases which doesn't mesh well with timed conversations.
Also I want to be able to read the full line which also doesn't work with that.

Alpha Protocol didn't offer full sentences. It did the paraphrase thing and that worked well.

But I can understand not wanting it. I just like the pressure at times.
 

Sou Da

Member
Alpha Protocol didn't offer full sentences. It did the paraphrase thing and that worked well.

But I can understand not wanting it. I just like the pressure at times.

One word a paraphrase does not make, it's more equivalent to tone if anything.
 

diaspora

Member
The Iron Bull heel-turn in Trespasser was fucking amazing and was logical in hindsight. I really want to see more of this from Bioware. Another example is the paragon choice to tell Kelly in ME3 to keep her identity which gets her murdered.
I was going to write a whole thing and then I thought about it wanted to ask why the hell Weekes isn't the lead writer for Andromeda?

I wonder if the whole ME3 backlash turned him away from it.
Because he's Dragon Age's lead writer and I'd imagine he might be busy with that :p

I know people at Bioware cross over to different games but it's not (if ever) often not the IP's leadership like lead writer and narrative designers. Between Solas and Bull I'm fine with Weekes heading DA.
 

Sou Da

Member
The Iron Bull heel-turn in Trespasser was fucking amazing and was logical in hindsight. I really want to see more of this from Bioware. Another example is the paragon choice to tell Kelly in ME3 to keep her identity which gets her murdered.

Because he's Dragon Age's lead writer and I'd imagine he might be busy with that :p

I know people at Bioware cross over to different games but it's not (if ever) often not the IP's leadership like lead writer and narrative designers. Between Solas and Bull I'm fine with Weekes heading DA.

What I was asking is why he chose to go over DA in the first place but I have no idea when he got on that project and when Andromeda started etc.
 

diaspora

Member
What I was asking is why he chose to go over DA in the first place but I have no idea when he got on that project and when Andromeda started etc.
Fair enough. Incidentally, enabling double disapproval in DAI allows for (imo) a greater level of believability in how characters react to your choices. Letting Hawke stay in the fade for example can potentially kill a player's relationship with Varric.
 

Sou Da

Member
Fair enough. Incidentally, enabling double disapproval in DAI allows for (imo) a greater level of believability in how characters react to your choices. Letting Hawke stay in the fade for example can potentially kill a player's relationship with Varric.
Yeah but that shouldn't have been a choice in the first place.
 

Bombless

Member
What I was asking is why he chose to go over DA in the first place but I have no idea when he got on that project and when Andromeda started etc.

I don't think he chose, it's just that the studio he is part of is working on DA while Andromeda went to Bioware Montreal.
 

Sou Da

Member
I don't think he chose, it's just that the studio he is part of is working on DA while Andromeda went to Bioware Montreal.

I forget about the divisions sometimes, thanks and good point.

I don't understand people's problem with that Flemeth conversation it's just a manipulative image of a paraphrase.
 

diaspora

Member
I forget about the divisions sometimes, thanks and good point.

I don't understand people's problem with that Flemeth conversation it's just a manipulative image of a paraphrase.
I mean, she tells him when facing the abyss to leap, and he faces the abyss in Here Lies the Abyss. I don't think they could have been more heavy handed with this.
 
Are people openly talking Dragon Age spoilers in a Mass Effect thread again?

jfc guys, they're both Bioware games so I get that you wanna draw comparisons but not every Mass Effect fan has played the Dragon Age games, and some of them may very well want to at some point, myself included. Can we please have some respect and not openly talk about spoilers? If this were a Dragon Age thread then talk all the spoilers you want, these games are old, so I get it. But that's why I avoid those threads, now I have to avoid Mass Effect threads too?
 

diaspora

Member
Are people openly talking Dragon Age spoilers in a Mass Effect thread again?

jfc guys, they're both Bioware games so I get that you wanna draw comparisons but not every Mass Effect fan has played the Dragon Age games, and some of them may very well want to at some point, myself included. Can we please have some respect and not openly talk about spoilers? If this were a Dragon Age thread then talk all the spoilers you want, these games are old, so I get it. But that's why I avoid those threads, now I have to avoid Mass Effect threads too?

I mean, I figured it'd be a wash after nearly 2 years... like 22 months.
 
I mean, I figured it'd be a wash after nearly 2 years... like 22 months.
Like I said, I avoid Dragon Age threads because because I understand that. Talk all the Dragon Age spoilers in Dragon Age threads, but I shouldn't have to avoid a Mass Effect thread to avoid Dragon Age spoilers. If that's the way people feel though, I'll just unsub this thread. What a shame.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom