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[rocketknight]

Homophobia is not a purely heterosexual idea. Women have been shown to be just as angry and vile towards homosexuals as men.

The other one is just essentially bro culture in college, where literally the same thing happens on the other side with the equivalent female. They are a huge minority of male culture

Those traits are not a purely patriarchal idea, they would exist in any form of government.

This is generally not the case. Gender is a moderate predictor of attitudes towards LGBT people, and women are more accepting. If you just meant anecdotally, then yeah, sure: Asshole, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

No. People who stand up against sexism and misogyny are not the ones to be blamed for sexism and misogyny.

(Side note: Feminists can be sexist and misogynistic, but in general they are commited to unlearning and resisting those oppressions.)


No, I was serious. My point is that not all women like men, let along "strong, powerful men". It's a false generalization with a false premise.

And on that note, I'm outta this thread, cause I gotta do my homework.

Oh, wait, I forgot I wanted to post this. This isn't targeted at anyone in particular here. It's just something that I think is important when men talk about feminism and male privilege.



If you see yourself doing any of this when called out, think about why, and think about what you might want to do next time.

I thought you had homework to do.

Also, how does generalizing all men as "men fucking suck" any different from the MRA guys who essentially generalize women as one conglomerate blob that hates them

 

[maharg]

I never once implied that it was. I just stated that machoism wouldnt die if we changed towards the opposite.

Taking it as a given (which I'm not sure I can agree it is), what does that have to do with anything?

 

[fallagin]

Oh, wait, I forgot I wanted to post this. This isn't targeted at anyone in particular here. It's just something that I think is important when men talk about feminism and male privilege.



If you see yourself doing any of this when called out, think about why, and think about what you might want to do next time.

You should put "men fucking suck" on there.

 

[Jarate]

Taking it as a given (which I'm not sure I can agree it is), what does that have to do with anything?

People are blaming patriarchy for machoism existence in culture. Getting rid of the patriarchal system would not stop males machoism. Males are biologically inclined to want to be "macho"

 

[Devolution]

People are blaming patriarchy for machoism existence in culture. Getting rid of the patriarchal system would not stop males machoism. Males are biologically inclined to want to be "macho"

It was only a matter of time before evopsych reared its head in here.

 

[CornBurrito]

Who says women are attracted to men?

Uh.... biology?

Look up the evolution of sex.

People are blaming patriarchy for machoism existence in culture. Getting rid of the patriarchal system would not stop males machoism. Males are biologically inclined to want to be "macho"

I think that's a mighty big claim. Where's your evidence?

 

[maharg]

People are blaming patriarchy for machoism existence in culture. Getting rid of the patriarchal system would not stop males machoism. Males are biologically inclined to want to be "macho"

Except, again, the goal is not to reject patriarchy in favour of some other entrenched inequality, so I'm not sure what your point is. The problem isn't that there are macho guys out there, but that 'machoism' is a given privilege by society as a whole.

As for biologically inclined, I'm not so sure. Any argument founded on precise knowledge of nature vs. nurture strikes me as far too bold.

 

[Jarate]

It was only a matter of time before evopsych reared its head in here.

Is evolutionary Psychology somehow wrong or bad?

 

[CornBurrito]

Is evolutionary Psychology somehow wrong or bad?

I think a lot of the claims made by evolutionary psychologists are speculative at best, and the evidence lacking. I can't seem to find any particularly strong proof that male humans are biologically inclined to act "macho."

Another problem with evolutionary psychology, or rather people who use it as a tool, is that they take its findings are PREscriptive rather than DEscriptive.

 

[Jarate]

Except, again, the goal is not to reject patriarchy in favour of some other entrenched inequality, so I'm not sure what your point is. The problem isn't that there are macho guys out there, but that 'machoism' is a given privilege by society as a whole.

As for biologically inclined, I'm not so sure. Any argument founded on precise knowledge of nature vs. nurture strikes me as far too bold.

Name any culture where men dont want to be macho.

 

[rocketknight]

Is evolutionary Psychology somehow wrong or bad?

Choose your own adventure. (But yes.)

 

[Riposte]

Males are biologically inclined to fucking suck.

 

[Karkador]

Name any culture where men dont want to be macho.

Tell us what "macho" means first.

Besides a Spanish word.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I hate reposting facebook stuff, but yeah:

I always liked this one:

These are two of the stupidest fucking posts I've seen on GAF in a long time--bravo. Care to even try to explain these "arguments"?

 

[Jarate]

Tell us what "macho" means first.

Besides a Spanish word.

Strong powerful and domineering

"Alpha males" if you will

 

[Suikoguy]

Yeah. Too bad it's overshadowed by a ton of other nonsensical bullshit that MRA's cling to.

This is endemic to many groups, like breastfeeding advocates who, while having some good points, also push for 6 year olds to breastfeed.

Or Peta turning out to be fucking useless, when there are legitimate issues.

I think it stems from the personality type required to be in charge to organize an organization like that.

 

[Devolution]

Is evolutionary Psychology somehow wrong or bad?

It's fundamentally flawed that when a discussion comes up about what's expected of men that people will use some of kind "baser biology" to defend conscious choices that people make. I don't care whether men were brutish burly assholes when we were just coming up from our ape ancestors, it has no bearing on what we consider to be decent socially acceptable attitudes. Society has been shaped, it can be reshaped. We are conscious beings capable of empathy, self-control and respect. We're progressing towards a society where women share more equal responsibilities and rights, there has been backlash ever since this struggle has taken place. What does our early ancestry have to do with this problem? And I notice like so many others who choose to go down this path, you're already taking the line of only acknowledging societies that fit your conclusions.

 

[essyouemeight]

I never once implied that it was. I just stated that machoism wouldnt die if we changed towards the opposite.

The point is not the obliteration of machoism. The point is that machoism SHOULDN'T BE a requisite for success, because the answer for every situation is not always masculinity, and not always femininity.

The reason boys are having trouble is because they are being told that they should not adapt for fear of being labeled feminine. Guys should be able to do feminine-like things when the need calls for it and same for women, without being punished for it.

Guys, on average, will always be guys and will always be larger and always have more testosterone, on average. But we shouldn't live in a society that punishes guys that don't, or guys that do but act like they don't. THAT is patriarchy. Making "being a guy" superior to everything else.

 

[ronito]

Oh, wait, I forgot I wanted to post this. This isn't targeted at anyone in particular here. It's just something that I think is important when men talk about feminism and male privilege.



If you see yourself doing any of this when called out, think about why, and think about what you might want to do next time.

I'm sorry, you need to point out where the "your gender fucking sucks" square is.
Can you point me to where that is?

 

[RustyNails]

These are two of the stupidest fucking posts I've seen on GAF in a long time--bravo. Care to even try to explain these "arguments"?

Facebook is the florida of internet

 

[depths20XX]

Males are biologically inclined to want to be "macho"

Bullshit. Society reinforces these qualities. Men feel forced to behave that way. A man can be secure in himself without needing to be macho. The fact is that society has created a place where a man feels pressured to be "macho". Men embrace machismo because anything else is frowned upon.

 

[Ashodin]

Males are biologically inclined to fucking suck.

Depends on who's asking

 

[Devolution]

The point is not the obliteration of machoism. The point is that machoism SHOULDN'T BE a requisite for success, because the answer for every situation is not always masculinity, and not always femininity.

The reason boy are having trouble is because they are being told that they should not adapt for fear of being labeled feminine. Guys should be able to do feminine-like things when the need calls for it and same for women, without being punished for it.

Guys, on average, will always be guys and will always be larger and always have more testosterone, on average. But we shouldn't live in a society that punishes guys that don't, or guys that do but act like they don't. THAT is patriarchy. Making "being a guy" superior to everything else.

Indeed.

This is one particular issue in which boys/men definitely lose out more than women. Their box for acceptable behavior and interests is much smaller than mine.

 

[CornBurrito]

These are two of the stupidest fucking posts I've seen on GAF in a long time--bravo. Care to even try to explain these "arguments"?

It is essentially "1st world problems!!!!" rephrased, to try and make light of feminist issues.

 

[maharg]

Name any culture where men dont want to be macho.

I can't exactly do that as I am not familiar with every single culture in human history. I would definitely note that there have been highly successful civilizations where dominant males engaged in behaviour that would, today, be considered not-macho but probably wasn't in their own civilization (men having young male lovers in greek or roman societies, for example). Thus it seems to me that if you predicate your argument on finding contradictory societies you probably need a more refined, and less ethnocentrically loaded, hypothesis.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Bullshit. Society reinforces these qualities. Men feel forced to behave that way. A man can be secure in himself without needing to be macho. The fact is that society has created a place where a man feels pressured to be "macho". Men embrace machismo because anything else is frowned upon.

Biologically inclined just means our genes make us more likely. There's nothing wrong to admitting that different sexes have different genetic behavorial traits. Evolution didnt skip over us.

 

[Jarate]

It's fundamentally flawed that when a discussion comes up about what's expected of men that people will use some of kind "baser biology" to defend conscious choices that people make. I don't care whether men were brutish burly assholes when we were just coming up from our ape ancestors, it has no bearing on what we consider to be decent socially acceptable attitudes. Society has been shaped, it can be reshaped. We are conscious beings capable of empathy, self-control and respect. We're progressing towards a society where women share more equal responsibilities and rights, there has been backlash ever since this struggle has taken place. What does our early ancestry have to do with this problem? And I notice like so many others who choose to go down this path, you're already taking the line of only acknowledging societies that fit your conclusions.

People use it incorrectly so its bad. Im not making a bold claim here, and I have thousands of year of human history to prove that males are predisposed f certain things. Sure everyone is capable of conscious change, but change takes a while, especially mental evolutionary change

The differences in human beings is awesome and we should revel in it and understand and try to improve our weaknesses.

 

[CornBurrito]

I forget, in some cultures isn't fucking other men considered macho as long as you aren't the receiving partner? In American culture you'd get written off as gay or bisexual, which is seen as entirely unmanly.

 

[Jarate]

I can't exactly do that as I am not familiar with every single culture in human history. I would definitely note that there have been highly successful civilizations where dominant males engaged in behaviour that would, today, be considered not-macho but probably wasn't in their own civilization (men having young male lovers in greek or roman societies, for example). Thus it seems to me that if you predicate your argument on finding contradictory societies you probably need a more refined, and less ethnocentrically loaded, hypothesis.

So you have absolutely 0 evidence that proves me wrong?

Having sex with young boys was also most likely a dominance thing, and while it may not seem macho today, it probably was back then

 

[ronito]

I forget, in some cultures isn't fucking other men considered macho as long as you aren't the receiving partner? In American culture you'd get written off as gay or bisexual, which is seen as entirely unmanly.

well there is gang culture in America. and that whole "down low" thing.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm sorry, you need to point out where the "your gender fucking sucks" square is.
Can you point me to where that is?

It's the whole meta-square. It's pretty meta.

 

[maharg]

Biologically inclined just means our genes make us more likely. There's nothing wrong to admitting that different sexes have different genetic behavorial traits. Evolution didnt skip over us.

Nor does the fact that there are genuine and testable genetic differences between the genders preclude being skeptical of claims that rest on shakier ground. I think the problem with evolutionary psychology, as I understand it, is that it's prone to being the proverbial hammer that makes everything look like a nail.

 

[Devolution]

So you have absolutely 0 evidence that proves me wrong?

Having sex with young boys was also most likely a dominance thing, and while it may not seem macho today, it probably was back then

Ancient Egypt. The Anicent Minoans. Societies that practice polyandry.

You've already taken the route of assuming our cultural norms are the default when it's obvious that society has dictated them. But then you want us to believe it's biology informing how to run society. How is this the case?

 

[maharg]

So you have absolutely 0 evidence that proves me wrong?

I think you haven't even begun to make a meaningful hypothesis, so proving you wrong would be difficult. The goalposts are on quicksand.

Having sex with young boys was also most likely a dominance thing, and while it may not seem macho today, it probably was back then

Yes, it was very clever of me to point this very fact out.

 

[cubicle47b]

it's prone to being a the proverbial hammer that makes everything look like a nail.

There's a lot of that going around.

 

[Karkador]

Strong powerful and domineering

"Alpha males" if you will

these are subjective traits. What's strong? what's powerful? what's domineering? these concepts aren't one-size-fits-every-society, but you're insisting that biology makes us all one way.

 

[depths20XX]

Biologically inclined just means our genes make us more likely. There's nothing wrong to admitting that different sexes have different genetic behavorial traits. Evolution didnt skip over us.

Ok I will be honest that I don't know much about the biology behind it. I think it's kind of sad to just rely on that and say "welp, its just how we are though". Even if it is the case I don't think it means things can't be changed for the better. Isn't that the whole point of feminism?

 

[Devolution]

The fact of the matter is gender roles and relationships differ across various societies but the societies that don't fit our current mold get overlooked whenever this evopsych line of discussion comes up.

 

[IHaveCandy]

You people should just ignore kittens. There's no point in giving time to people that carry such an extreme view of any ideology. Their mind is set and they're not even willing to acknowledge reality that is against their views. You'd all be better served to just ignore her and let her drift off .

 

[Jarate]

Ancient Egypt. The Anicent Minoans. Societies that practice polyandry.

You've already taken the route of assuming our cultural norms are the default when it's obvious that society has dictated them. But then you want us to believe it's biology informing how to run society. How is this the case?

What does women having multiple partners have to do with machoism

And Im only stating that humans are naturally inclined to do certain things. A gorilla is capable on hand signs and can communicate to other humans, yet we know they have difference in sex and that both genders have opposing disposisions.

We are animals, not gods

 

[Devolution]

What does women having multiple partners have to do with machoism

And Im only stating that humans are naturally inclined to do certain things. A gorilla is capable on hand signs and can communicate to other humans, yet we know they have difference in sex and that both genders have opposing disposisions.

We are animals, not gods

The point is various societies have practiced different relationships and gender roles, this would lead me to conclude that your idea of biology doesn't really ring true when applied to societies outside of a particular mold.

 

[Jarate]

The point is various societies have practiced different relationships and gender roles, this would lead me to conclude that your idea of biology doesn't really ring true when applied to societies outside of a particular mold.

There are also a whole shitton, in fact, a lot more societies that practice similar to what im saying. Does a statistician look at those few as imdicative as a whole?

 

[IHaveCandy]

Nor does the fact that there are genuine and testable genetic differences between the genders preclude being skeptical of claims that rest on shakier ground. I think the problem with evolutionary psychology, as I understand it, is that it's prone to being the proverbial hammer that makes everything look like a nail.

Well yes, that becomes a problem when people treat "inclined" to mean "forces me". My sex makes me biologically inclined to primarily look at women as potential sexual partners at first meeting. But it doesn't take much brain power to think "this is a person just like me. And even though I do/don't have sexual desires for her, I should set those aside because that's got nothing to do with why she came to me."

 

[Devolution]

There are also a whole shitton, in fact, a lot more societies that practice similar to what im saying. Does a statistician look at those few as imdicative as a whole?

Wow. You really don't get it do you? It's like ethnocentrism in a nutshell.

 

[CornBurrito]

well there is gang culture in America. and that whole "down low" thing.

Suddenly, gay porn got slightly more realistic.

 

[Jarate]

Wow. You really don't get it do you? It's like ethnocentrism in a nutshell.

Im sorry that you dont understand how statistics work. Outliers are ignored usually

 

[essyouemeight]

There are also a whole shitton, in fact, a lot more societies that practice similar to what im saying. Does a statistician look at those few as indicative as a whole?

If you mean putting penises in vaginas then yeah, maybe I guess. If you mean western-concepts of masculinity then not really. There are certain cultures in central asia and africa where being masculine means knowing how to take care of a baby and how to cook for your wife and stuff like that.

 

[Kazerei]

So you have absolutely 0 evidence that proves me wrong?

Having sex with young boys was also most likely a dominance thing, and while it may not seem macho today, it probably was back then

That's the whole point ... machoism is the result of culture, not genetics ...

 

[Devolution]

Im sorry that you dont understand how statistics work. Outliers are ignored usually

I'm sorry you don't understand how anthropology works yet you seem inclined to talk a bunch of bullshit. You don't get to just ignore outliers because they ruin your hypothesis. Talk about selection bias.