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[Earthstrike]

I hate reposting facebook stuff, but yeah:

These pictures are making obscenely retarded points.

 

[Earthstrike]

It seems to me that nature makes men want to do things that attract women and culture tells men how to do it.

Now let's be honest, do women prefer strong men or weak men? Do women prefer successful men or unsuccessful men?

I know though, it's all because of the patriarchy, right?

What are you talking about? What does what women sexually prefer have to do with anything related to feminism?

 

[Vermillion]

You know someone who knows Richard Dawkins? That's cool.

Ooh, two degrees of separation from Dawkins, neat.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

What are you talking about? What does what women sexually prefer have to do with anything related to feminism?

Have you not been reading the nature vs nurture debate going on in the past few pages?

 

[Rayis]

1. I don't know if he self-identifies as an MRA, but he was citing all the MRA talking points.

2. I don't blame women for hating men. Men fucking suck. Patriarchy has turned men into violent, domineering, hyper competitive, anti-social, emotionally repressed, self-alienating shells of human beings. Many men resist that socialization, but sadly, not many get very far in their resistance. And I empathize with that, because patriarchy will beat them down for not conforming. See: being an effeminate man, being a gay man, being a woman, being a child.

I repeat: men fucking suck, and I don't blame women who dislike men. I do, however, have critiques of women who center their feminism around hating and excluding men. Thankfully, those feminists are VERY rare.

I honestly don't blame you for feeling like that, I've felt like that before too. You just got to realize that this does not accurately describe all men, there are some amazing men out there and they would rightly feel offended by a post like this. The reason I felt like that before is due to bullying throughout my school years, and all perpetrators being male. Girls would even protect me against the boys because I've never fit in with the male gender so I was a target, fortunately those men are a minority. I agree with a lot of the points in your post though.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I just dont understand how people can keep a straight face when discussing a "patriarchy". Seriously, the entire concept is comical to me, just replace the term with god, or a matriarchy and all the same "arguments" can be made. Feminists get so angry at MRA's because they're using the exact same arguments which feminists have used. In the end both are a joke.

 

[ColonelColon]

What are you talking about? What does what women sexually prefer have to do with anything related to feminism?

Don't feminists frequently claim that gender roles are a result of the "patriarchy"? Maybe we should consider that women's preferences have some major influence in forming these roles.

 

[faceless007]

So you have absolutely 0 evidence that proves me wrong?

Having sex with young boys was also most likely a dominance thing, and while it may not seem macho today, it probably was back then

How can we be biologically wired to do "macho" things if the definition of "macho" is dependent on the specific time and society you're looking at? Sounds like a nice tautology.

 

[Barrage]

I don't blame women for hating men. Men fucking suck. Patriarchy has turned men into violent, domineering, hyper competitive, anti-social, emotionally repressed, self-alienating shells of human beings. Many men resist that socialization, but sadly, not many get very far in their resistance. And I empathize with that, because patriarchy will beat them down for not conforming. See: being an effeminate man, being a gay man, being a woman, being a child.

I repeat: men fucking suck, and I don't blame women who dislike men. I do, however, have critiques of women who center their feminism around hating and excluding men. Thankfully, those feminists are VERY rare.

Disgusting. If the genders were reversed this would be a lengthy ban.

As for the article, It has good points that I wish were examined for longer periods of time. One piece of sociology i've always wanted to learn more about was how male children of single mothers react in terms of displaying "machismo".

In my limited personal and anecdotal experience, these boys tend to have either way less, or (in some cases in lower-income african-american communities) way more displays of stereotypical North American Masculinity. From my own experience as half-black kid with a single mom, and one that hit both ends of the masculinity spectrum in different ways, I've wondered if that was compensation for the lack of a paternal figure, or if there's some other socio-economic reasoning.

 

[Fivefold]

1. I don't know if he self-identifies as an MRA, but he was citing all the MRA talking points.

2. I don't blame women for hating men. Men fucking suck. Patriarchy has turned men into violent, domineering, hyper competitive, anti-social, emotionally repressed, self-alienating shells of human beings. Many men resist that socialization, but sadly, not many get very far in their resistance. And I empathize with that, because patriarchy will beat them down for not conforming. See: being an effeminate man, being a gay man, being a woman, being a child.

I repeat: men fucking suck, and I don't blame women who dislike men. I do, however, have critiques of women who center their feminism around hating and excluding men. Thankfully, those feminists are VERY rare.

This is actually the kind of post that fuels the whole MRA nonsense.

 

[rocketknight]

Don't feminists frequently claim that gender roles are a result of the "patriarchy"? Maybe we should consider that women's preferences have some major influence in forming these roles.

"Patriarchy" isn't a term that means "those damned men." It means "this system we have that is set up to handle privileges and oppression that tends to inherently favor men and is shitty for everybody." Women's preferences are shaped by culture to the same extent that men's are. Everybody loses.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

"Patriarchy" isn't a term that means "those damned men." It means "this system we have that is set up to handle privileges and oppression that tends to inherently favor men and is shitty for everybody." Women's preferences are shaped by culture to the same extent that men's are. Everybody loses.

and since women are considered the primary care takers (of children), they have an extremely large role in the way men are shaped through their young lives, re-inforcing those "patriarchal" tendencies.

Look, i can make up bs about systems existing too. The fundemental flaw of feminism is predicating an ideology on a psychologicaly unsound belief.

 

[rocketknight]

and since women are considered the primary care takers (of children), they have an extremely large role in the way men are shaped through their young lives, re-inforcing those "patriarchal" tendencies.

Look, i can make up bs about systems existing too.

That's not BS, that's true. We're all guilty of perpetuating this shit.

 

[Gotchaye]

and since women are considered the primary care takers (of children), they have an extremely large role in the way men are shaped through their young lives, re-inforcing those "patriarchal" tendencies.

Look, i can make up bs about systems existing too. The fundemental flaw of feminism is predicating an ideology on a psychologicaly unsound belief.

Who's claiming that women play no role in perpetuating sexism?

 

[timetokill]

Good lord at that kittens post. Serious question, is that kind of thing not bannable?

"Patriarchy" isn't a term that means "those damned men." It means "this system we have that is set up to handle privileges and oppression that tends to inherently favor men and is shitty for everybody." Women's preferences are shaped by culture to the same extent that men's are. Everybody loses.

We don't get anywhere by pretending that words like "feminism" and "patriarchy" don't have gendered roots, though. There's a reason why people bristle at them. Regardless of what they mean we're going to have these issues constantly simply because of the etymology.

 

[Devolution]

Who's claiming that women play no role in perpetuating sexism?

No one. It's one of the many straw men people who don't understand what the fuck patriarchy means love to bring up. These conversations always turn to shit because of the couple of posters who refuse to understand that patriarchy does not mean men, and in turn does not mean them. But patriarchy is set up in a way to benefit men more than women. <- Apparently even this is debatable on this forum. Makes for the lowest common denominator discussions that's for sure.

We don't get anywhere by pretending that words like "feminism" and "patriarchy" don't have gendered roots, though. There's a reason why people bristle at them. Regardless of what they mean we're going to have these issues constantly simply because of the etymology.

They have gendered roots because a system was set up in which one gender generally benefited more in plenty of societies around the world. People are getting bristly about fucking facts at this point. This always happens in gender discussions here and it's infuriating.

 

[rocketknight]

We don't get anywhere by pretending that words like "feminism" and "patriarchy" don't have gendered roots, though. There's a reason why people bristle at them. Regardless of what they mean we're going to have these issues constantly simply because of the etymology.

I guess, but anyone who gets hung up on the etymology of words before they can engage with the concepts behind them tends not to be ready for the concepts anyway.

 

[CLEEK]

and since women are considered the primary care takers (of children), they have an extremely large role in the way men are shaped through their young lives, re-inforcing those "patriarchal" tendencies.

There is also a fallacy in the view that patriarchy is bad for all women. There are plenty of women in the world that are perfectly happy with traditional cultural roles, of mothers and home makers.

Not to mention, in some cultures, the mothers/matriarchs are the ones who most dominantly enforce cultural/traditional conformity.

 

[CLEEK]

Good lord at that kittens post. Serious question, is that kind of thing not bannable?

Well, a mod has been posting extensively in this thread, so they must have seen it.

I guess some types of bigotry are fine.

 

[timetokill]

I guess, but anyone who gets hung up on the etymology of words before they can engage with the concepts behind them tends not to be ready for the concepts anyway.

Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but with that kind of attitude the nation will never be ready for these concepts, then.

Do you know what happened to public support when they started calling it the "Death tax" instead of the "Estate tax?"

Naming is important. I think that MRAs are inevitable when you consider how it's named and that many men feel disenfranchised with a movement that seems to not care about issues that affect them personally. And everyone cares about personal issues a lot more than what affects somebody else.

But anyway, I guess we'll keep hashing this out as this issue keeps coming up again and again.

 

[Karakand]

These are obscenely retarded.

I had no idea women existed only to contribute another front in the ongoing conflict(s) with Islam. It's almost like women aren't the opposing team, but the ball that gets played with. :OOOO

 

[kittens]

Also, how does generalizing all men as "men fucking suck" any different from the MRA guys who essentially generalize women as one conglomerate blob that hates them

You should put "men fucking suck" on there.

I'm sorry, you need to point out where the "your gender fucking sucks" square is.
Can you point me to where that is?

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

Ugh, I dunno. This is something that is so fundamentally clear to me that I don't know how to explain it. I've learned it through my own socialization as a male, through my interactions with other men, and through the countless people I know who are survivors of male aggression.

Males are biologically inclined to fucking suck.

I know you're probably being facetious, but no. It's learned, not biological. Men aren't born with some inherent impulse to be patriarchal. They're socialized, beaten down, and broken. They're coerced.

This is actually the kind of post that fuels the whole MRA nonsense.

This pisses me off so much. If I said what I felt, I'd probably never post on GAF again, lol. Don't blame me -- or any other feminist -- for the shit that MRAs spew.

 

[CLEEK]

Blacks-- because of cultural socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and crime. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like blacks. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about absent fathers. Think about street culture. Gangs.

The easiest way to highlight someone's bigotry and hypocrisy is to swap out the group they're seemingly OK with hating, for another.

 

[Kuroyume]

nvm

 

[IHaveCandy]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

Ugh, I dunno. This is something that is so fundamentally clear to me that I don't know how to explain it. I've learned it through my own socialization as a male, through my interactions with other men, and through the countless people I know who are survivors of male aggression.


I know you're probably being facetious, but no. It's learned, not biological. Men aren't born with some inherent impulse to be patriarchal. They're socialized, beaten down, and broken. They're coerced.


This pisses me off so much. If I said what I felt, I'd probably never post on GAF again, lol. Don't blame me -- or any other feminist -- for the shit that MRAs spew.

A majority of men are not violent. Even if every act of violence was commuted by men, that doesn't speak at all about the excessive majority of men that are non-violent.

The majority of violent people being men doesn't mean the majority of men are violent.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing

Oh noes bad things happen lets blame it on people who have nothing to do with it based on their chromosomes. Yes. That sounds productive.

 

[Earthstrike]

Don't feminists frequently claim that gender roles are a result of the "patriarchy"? Maybe we should consider that women's preferences have some major influence in forming these roles.

Let's take what you said to be true. Are men obligated to be the way the other gender sexually prefers? Are women obligated to look the way men want them too? On a more real note though, yes, i think sexual preferences do influence gender roles, but I definitely do feel patriarchy is responsible for elements of gender roles that are undesirable.

 

[VALIS]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

Ugh, I dunno. This is something that is so fundamentally clear to me that I don't know how to explain it. I've learned it through my own socialization as a male, through my interactions with other men, and through the countless people I know who are survivors of male aggression.

But you're carrying this out to paint an entire group of 3.5 billion. It's so fundamentally clear to me that this is bigot logic -- taking the worst examples of a group and assuming they're all like that -- that I don't know how to explain something so obvious.

If you said "men on average are more violent/abusive/etc. than women," I don't think you'd get much argument. Certainly not from me, anyway. But you're going for the whole enchilada.

 

[ThisWreckage]

At least some of what he said is not wrong, but it's completely lost in the sea of bullshit.

 

[squidyj]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

Ugh, I dunno. This is something that is so fundamentally clear to me that I don't know how to explain it. I've learned it through my own socialization as a male, through my interactions with other men, and through the countless people I know who are survivors of male aggression.


I know you're probably being facetious, but no. It's learned, not biological. Men aren't born with some inherent impulse to be patriarchal. They're socialized, beaten down, and broken. They're coerced.


This pisses me off so much. If I said what I felt, I'd probably never post on GAF again, lol. Don't blame me -- or any other feminist -- for the shit that MRAs spew.

so what you're saying is that if a group that identified itself as an MRA said that there are feminists who straight up think men are shit and identified your statements as a point of evidence, you wouldn't be responsible for that? I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

This is oooold. Happened almost half a year ago.

 

[Fivefold]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

So there's no such thing as abusive mothers? Do girls never bully each other? Etc... etc..

This post is just so full of wrong I kinda gave up typing a real reply.

 

[Famassu]

From what I've read Feminism is supposed to incorporate equality of all kind, though the name really should change if that is the real purpose.

Yeah, feminism is about equality between everyone, not just women's "give us everything while we take your (men's) rights away" like it's demonized to be, anyone who is THAT kind of a "feminist" is really not a feminist at all, just the kind of narrow-minded shithead a lot of other kinds of extremists are who sully the name of the majority and are really not representative of the movement at all.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Hey guys, minority groups create a much larger percentage of prison population than what their general population. Clearly this means that whites are moral little saints, while all minorities are the cause of all our problems!

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

What if kittens is really just trying to make feminists look really bad?

 

[lmpaler]

I think you should consider more deeply why you might get that reaction. If, say, your mother died and someone started talking to you about how awful it was when THEIR mother died ten years ago, and not in a "I understand how you feel" kind of way but in a "Think about ME!" kind of way, how would you react?

If your goal was to express sympathy for their struggles, you may have been going about it wrong. If your goal was to compete with their struggles, well, it's pretty natural to get that reaction.

True and as time went on I considered this and worded my rebuttals more carefully to initiate a healthy conversation. Sometimes this was met with success, other times it was the same reaction.

The problem I found is that when women, or I should say people in general, start getting on that pedestal about this and that pertaining to this subject or another one that personally realtes to them, it is very hard to get them off of it without them feeling as though you are attacking them.

Sometimes it makes it difficult for me to determine if they really feel that way or are simply being manipulative, but that is another topic entirely.

 

[alexthekid]

Men -- because of patriarchal socialization -- cause so much violence, harm, and abuse. This is so prevelant that many people feel uneasy, unsafe, or afraid. And some people straight up don't like men. Does that not ring true with you all? Think about abusive fathers. Think about emotionally abusive fathers. Think about street harassment. Domestic violence. School bullying. Sex shaming. Workplace harassment. Gay bashing.

Ugh, I dunno. This is something that is so fundamentally clear to me that I don't know how to explain it. I've learned it through my own socialization as a male, through my interactions with other men, and through the countless people I know who are survivors of male aggression.

Are you seriously thinking that these generalizations are ok because you post follow them up with blaming a social structure as the reason for the behavior you are hating?

I would love to see someone use this line of reasoning when talking about race, it is insane and for being someone interested in gender issues it is intellectual embarrassment.

This pisses me off so much. If I said what I felt, I'd probably never post on GAF again, lol. Don't blame me -- or any other feminist -- for the shit that MRAs spew.

Then maybe you should stop posting, stupid generalizations are fuelling a stupid debate, especially if the generalizations are ground for hatred.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

What if kittens is really just trying to make feminists look really bad?

I just had the same thought lol. What if kittens is really, what if kittens is a robot

 

[CLEEK]

Biologically, high levels of testosterone is linked to aggression and violence. Obviously, not all men have high levels of testosterone, and not all men who have high levels of testosterone are violent.

Culturally, woman can be just as aggressive and violent as men, regardless of physical factors.

 

[Fivefold]

Are you seriously thinking that these generalizations are ok because you post follow them up with blaming a social structure as the reason for the behavior you are hating?

I would love to see someone use this line of reasoning when talking about race, it is insane and for being someone interested in gender issues it is intellectual embarrassment.

Yeah the whole thing is so nonsensical it's basically saying its OK for men to be psychopaths because of reasons patriarchy.

 

[IceCold]

Kittens is obviously trolling and acting like a stereotypical feminazi.

...

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Kittens is obviously trolling and acting like a stereotypical feminazi.

...

He's only an awful person because he's a man.

 

[kittens]

So, patriarchy is make believe? Men aren't socialized to be mean, domineering, anti-social? Male violence isn't a widespread problem?

OF COURSE not all men are assholes. There are many men out there working to unlearn patriarchy and be better people. But the majority are not doing that work, and in the mean time are harming (in big ways and small ways) countless people in their interpersonal lives.

 

[maharg]

Well, a mod has been posting extensively in this thread, so they must have seen it.

I guess some types of bigotry are fine.

My role on this site has never been moderation, and my admin status is mostly a legacy at this point. I'm more interested in debating than controlling the conversation and the two goals are often at odds.

 

[Sub_Level]

Suicide and depression are major issues for men, I've dealt with it myself, but I'm not sure if it has anything to do with rights. I think those issues should be separated from the "custody of child" stuff.

 

[Fivefold]

So, patriarchy is make believe? Men aren't socialized to be mean, domineering, anti-social? Male violence isn't a widespread problem?

OF COURSE not all men are assholes. There are many men out there working to unlearn patriarchy and be better people. But the majority are not doing that work, and in the mean time are harming (in big ways and small ways) countless people in their interpersonal lives.

For fuck sake patriarchy is not about men being mean and bad, it's about property rights and authority roles. Don't assign your own meanings to well established concepts.

 

[CLEEK]

Kittens is obviously trolling and acting like a stereotypical feminazi.

The self-identified feminists I know are basically striving for basic autonomy/reproductive rights, fair wages, work/volunteer at rape/violence crisis centers and donate their time and money to various causes seeking to improve the lives of women because we're not at full equality yet. When I hear all this ruckus on the internet about extreme feminists I just don't know where they get this shit.

Paging Devo to this thread.

 

[Alcotholic]

There shouldn't have to be a "Men's Rights/ Issues Movement". With that said, I think modern Feminism is a disgusting, offensive and confusing mess. They perpetuate false statistics and double standards believing they are the oppressed sex.
Yes, push gender equality and get rid of gender roles, but with Feminists believing in the "Patriarchy", it creates a bigger gap between the sexes.

The self-identified feminists I know are basically striving for basic autonomy/reproductive rights, fair wages, work/volunteer at rape/violence crisis centers and donate their time and money to various causes seeking to improve the lives of women because we're not at full equality yet. When I hear all this ruckus on the internet about extreme feminists I just don't know where they get this shit.

I dont know any feminists like the ones you talk of.

 

[Mumei]

I just saw this topic, and now I have to go to bed. How irritating.

Anyway, my position is the same as it has always been. Men indeed have real issues, but these issues are [so far as I am aware] all related to patriarchy. The men's rights movement uses these issues as a cudgel to attack feminism, to present a situation where feminism went "too far" and now boys are suffering - and that's why father's parental involvement is supposedly undervalued, why men are shown to be buffoonish in commercials and sitcoms, boys don't feel supported, why prison rape is allowed to happen, why boys are not doing as well in school, and other sundry problems men either face or are said to be facing. This only makes sense if you believe that feminism's successes are zero-sum; that the loss of relative advantages men have due to their gender privilege also entails absolute losses where men start doing worse if feminism does too well. I believe that men have important issues, but I don't support the men's rights movement because it is predicated on a false premise that feminism is at fault.

But even if the men's rights movement were not deeply opposed to feminism, dedicated to supporting patriarchal norms, and deeply misogynistic, I still couldn't support it due to the racism and homophobia in the movement.

 

[Zaptruder]

Yeah, feminism is about equality between everyone, not just women's "give us everything while we take your (men's) rights away" like it's demonized to be, anyone who is THAT kind of a "feminist" is really not a feminist at all, just the kind of narrow-minded shithead a lot of other kinds of extremists are who sully the name of the majority and are really not representative of the movement at all.

The movement has an uncharacteristically misleading name that becomes a sticking point for many otherwise would be fair minded people.

The movement needs a rebranding to better suit its stated purpose of equality for all.

Unfortunately, many feminists are simply dismissive of this simple truth. i.e. if you actually believed in the purpose, then the name should be fine.