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[Alcibiades]

ok, so weren't the libbies in Europe (and many here in the US) saying Arafat was the way to peace?

why did France stick by that turd anyway...

now that he's out of the way, there's at least a glimmer of hope that Palestinians won't be slaughtering women & children not to "take back their land" from '67, but rather to drive them out completely and into sea...

the way I see it, Europe still has anti-Semetic feelings in it's roots... the more things change (from WWII), the more they stay the same...

France should have never put so much faith in Arafat they look like fools now.

Yeah the Jews aren't completely innocent and this is all a Euro guilt trip over WWII that they might finally be getting over, but it's dumb that they expected us to work with someone encouraging terrorism who had proven himself impossible to deal with even under the most generous of circumstances being offered...

I see the there's blight for the Palestinians under Jewish occupation, but where are the Jews supposed to go, Europe? to live in the countries that supported a dictator (Saddam Hussien) that was funding suicide bombings against the women and children of Israel.

Wasn't it just a few decades ago Germany supported a man in power decimating the Jews, and now they supported a regime that was paying families if their kids went up and blew Jewish kids up?

Britian is one of the few semi-reliables in Europe. I'm just waiting to hear "we were wrong" from some of the countries that supported Arafat and met with him to prop him up cause they knew the US policy was not to deal with him (*cough* France *cough*)


-on a more positive note, it's going to be a challenge to keep this state of calm forever, but at least things are looking up...

I say why not give the Arabs East Jerusalem, that's basically what it comes down to, and I bet everything else (including right of return) could be worked out if they could deal with the Jerusalem issue...

well, that's about the only political rant on my mind more recently, ever since the pummeling the Democrats took in the elections, there really hasn't been much to complain about anyway, things are looking much better overall (Korea and Iran are the same ol', they've probably had nukes for a while now, THANKS CLINTON), and I'm just glad Kerry isn't in office trying to strike up another Clinton-esque bargain with The Democratic People's Korea...

 

[BobbyRobby]

The Jews are guilty of terrorist acts against Palestine also.

It seems incredibly racist to me that one nationailty should be given a country of its own.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I say why not give the Arabs East Jerusalem,

If you were a bible reader, you'll know that no sane Jew will let that happen. I consider myself a Christian. I don't go to church anymore and can only remember more prominent passages, but Isreal is not going to cede an inch of Jerusalem, to anyone

 

[Alcibiades]

If you were a bible reader, you'll know that no sane Jew will let that happen. I consider myself a Christian. I don't go to church anymore and can only remember more prominent passages, but Isreal is not going to cede an inch of Jerusalem, to anyone

they are already living there, it would just be a matter of formality anyway...

Aren't Palestinians like Christians anyway, like 13% of them or something, it wouldn't be so bad...

btw, there a difference between taking land in a war where all your neighbors were plotting against you and purposefully targeting women an children...

 

[FoneBone]

If you were a bible reader, you'll know that no sane Jew will let that happen.

Note: contrary to the perceptions that tend to litter these threads, "the Jews" do not exist as some kind of monolithic entity.

 

[NLB2]

It seems incredibly racist to me that one nationailty should be given a country of its own.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Inumaru]

The Jews are guilty of terrorist acts against Palestine also.

It seems incredibly racist to me that one nationailty should be given a country of its own.

"The 21 recognized Arab countries [surrounding Israel] have 50 times as many people, 800 times as much land, extensive oil reserves, and not a single democracy"

Yeah, how dare they want their own country! Selfish Jews!

By the way, Jews and Palestinians are of the same race, so I'm not sure how racism fits in here.

 

[kumanoki]

It seems incredibly racist to me that one nationailty should be given a country of its own.

:lol :lol :lol :lol
I had to do a double-take on that one.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
That's classic.

 

[Fresh Prince]

The problem I have is why the double standard? Why can't every indeginous race which have emmigrated or lived side by side with 'foreigners' take up arms and create a new state within a former colony (ie America or Australia) or try to replace it all together?

 

[Pellham]

The Jews are guilty of terrorist acts against Palestine also.

Saying that an entire ethnic group are guilty of terrorist acts is ridiculous.

 

[Chrono]

edit: nm. -_-

 

[BobbyRobby]

"The 21 recognized Arab countries [surrounding Israel] have 50 times as many people, 800 times as much land, extensive oil reserves, and not a single democracy"

Yeah, how dare they want their own country! Selfish Jews!

By the way, Jews and Palestinians are of the same race, so I'm not sure how racism fits in here.

Sure, it'd be nice if they happened to have a country of their own, but you can't just go about giving a distinct group (sorry, thought they were a race) of people a country. Why can't they integrate? Jewish people are a very small minority in the world, about .2%.

Saying that an entire ethnic group are guilty of terrorist acts is ridiculous.

My mistake. I just got done reading the original poster's post where he referred to them as Jews. It was stuck in my head. I meant Israelites.

 

[Alcibiades]

Sure, it'd be nice if they happened to have a country of their own, but you can't just go about giving a distinct group (sorry, thought they were a race) of people a country. Why can't they integrate? Jewish people are a very small minority in the world, about .2%.

yeah integrate where?

Europe, where anti-Semitisim is "on the rise" w/ overtures from even politicians both convservative and liberal?

eventually they are scapegoated or a reason is found to hate, it's not just 20th century, it's basically world history that Jews have suffered...

I say give them that piece of land in the middle of the desert and have anti-semetic people deal with those feelings with Jews around to be picked on...

 

[Socreges]

Europe, where anti-Semitisim is "on the rise" w/ overtures from even politicians both convservative and liberal?

I'm going to try and forget everything that I've just read, but I'm curious about this particular bit of information. Links? I'm aware of anti-Semitism in Europe, but it's often related to large muslim populations (consequently there is also a considerable amount of anti-muslim sentiment).

 

[Fresh Prince]

Have you even been to 'Europe'? Meet 'Europeans' who have all felt the same way you described?

 

[Particle Physicist]

im glad im not the only one pleased with how Abbas has been handling the whole situation. i mean, he actually ousted 3 of his security officers because they allowed attacks to happen after a cease-fire was called... hell, he actually set up troops guarding against terrorist acts.. Arafat would never have done such things.

 

[Alcibiades]

I'm going to try and forget everything that I've just read, but I'm curious about this particular bit of information. Links? I'm aware of anti-Semitism in Europe, but it's often related to large muslim populations (consequently there is also a considerable amount of anti-muslim sentiment).

actually, I was referring to admissions from governemtn officials that they have to tackel anti-semitism, I'm sure I heard it on Headline News or something...

also, some wacko right-winger in France that had made both anti-Semetic and anti-immigration remarks a few years ago got tlike a shocking 17% of the vote or something...

it's not anything concrete (although there are specific instances like growing neo-Nazi groups and defamation of WWII holocaust stuff, etc..), just a general trend:

http://www.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=anti-semitism+up+in+europe&ie=UTF-8

 

[Alcibiades]

im glad im not the only one pleased with how Abbas has been handling the whole situation. i mean, he actually ousted 3 of his security officers because they allowed attacks to happen after a cease-fire was called... hell, he actually set up troops guarding against terrorist acts.. Arafat would never have done such things.

yeah, to be honest, I REALLY, REALLY surprised he's moved so strongly...

I didn't think he'd drag his feet, but everytime something arises he has handled it masterfully... I thought Hamas and co. would just ignore him like they ignored the PA under Arafat, but Abbas has been a political genius to make it "their" fight as well...

he's totally co-opted them, I'm surprised he has bascially moved in security forces, fired officers, said there needs to be peace (something Hamas is against vocally)...

 

[Particle Physicist]

Why can't they integrate? Jewish people are a very small minority in the world, about .2%.

because they have never been able to fully integrate. there have been countless wars throughout history where jews were pointed at as scapegoats. and besides, when israel was given to the jews, no one really cared for that land... and people should also be pointing fingers at the Jordanian government, as that was supposed to be palestine.

regardless of what 'should have been'.. israel is a country now. the palestinians are mostly refugees now. and from the looks of it, things seem to be moving in the right direction towards peace in that area.

 

[whytemyke]

Ok. First off, let's get a few things straight.

The reason Arafat was ineffective was because everyone in the west was convinced that he had no control over Hamas, PLO, etc. It's pretty much a baseless accusation used to get rid of this old idea that he's the sole spokesperson for the Palestinian people. Everyone else had changed their leaders, and nothing was getting done, so it was time for Palestine to get new representation, too. It's the same thing as saying Jimmy Carter was a bad President... they were both more or less victims of circumstance.

The next thing you all need to keep in mind (and by 'you all' I mean all of Western Civillization) is that no side is right in this. No side is 'more' right, no side is 'less' right, it's all just plain wrong. The sooner people quit trying to blame the other side, and start trying to fix this problem, the sooner issues get solved or at least addressed.

Israel generally kills more people in one of their 'coordinated' attacks than your average suicide bombers will kill in 3 or 4 attacks, so ultimately it balances out. And if you think the Israelis don't target civillians you're horribly ignorant... just look at the refugee camp they bulldozed, with everyone still in it, about 3 years ago that killed roughly 300 innocent people. The reason they bulldozed? A suspected terrorist lived in the camp.

Westerners have to also realize that as long as we support Israel without giving any lipservice to Palestine, Muslims around the world will consider us their enemies. One of the basis of Islam is an idea of Pan-Islamism, where all Muslims are united as brothers and sisters. We do not view the Iraq occupation and the occupation of "Palestinian" areas by Israel linked... most Muslims do.

In order to even start to comprehend the way these cultures work, and clash, you have to realize those key facts. Nobody is right, so quit trying to say someone is right. Just be happy that they're finally working towards peace all around, because I guarantee it's going to give the United States a lot more flexibility in it's future dealings with Muslim peoples. And hope that Sharon (never thought I'd say this) doesn't get the "Rabin" treatment.

 

[Mandark]

1) Where is the evidence that anti-Semitism is "on the rise" in Europe? Evidence, not anecdotes. BONUS QUESTION: Have you ever been to Europe?

2) Are you Jewish? Or are you a goy using accusations of anti-Semitism as a political bludgeon, like Cathy Young?

3) Europe was "propping up" Arafat? Explain how Arafat's de facto power derived from Europe, instead of from Palestinians who considered him an authority figure.

4) In the original post, you say "where are the Jews meant to go, Europe?" List the mainstream officeholders and political groups that have stated a desire for Jews to leave Israel (all of Israel, not just the post-1967 territories). First-world countries only.

5) Without using the words "oil-for-food," explain how Europe was supporting Iraq.

6) Explain, in detail, Clinton's North Korea policy, and the results. Then explain, in detail, the current administration's North Korea policy, and the results.

7) Were Saddam's payments to families of suicide bombers PR stunts, or a major contributing factor to those attacks? Show your work.

 

[megateto]

Yeah the Jews aren't completely innocent and this is all a Euro guilt trip over WWII

You are joking, right? Right? Or extremely ignorant.

Remember: Europe

more than just Germany (but first we should consider if Germany has a certain guilt feeling, which I am not doubting could be the case)

Isn't there a difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Sionism? If anything, "most" euros would be against a group that occupies other people's land. If anything, but not against a certain religion.

Didn't you know that Europe is going through a growing lack of interest of anything religion related?

Edit: I was wrong: our interest in religion grows in a certain way: we care about those who care too much[/] about religion.

 

[Socreges]

bump

 

[bishoptl]

Don't bump.

 

[Doth Togo]

The Black Forest is a beautiful area.

 

[Azih]

I like the cake myself.

 

[bob_arctor]

Damn is Israel tiny! Kind of amazing how much military might they pack in such a small area. They're like a mini-U.S.

 

[Socreges]

Don't bump.

Why not?

Damn is Israel tiny! Kind of amazing how much military might they pack in such a small area. They're like a mini-U.S.

Well, yeah. Where did much of that military might come from, right?

 

[Mandark]

Because bish said so. Generally speaking, "bump" isn't considered to be a terribly constructive response to a thread.

 

[gofreak]

I see the there's blight for the Palestinians under Jewish occupation, but where are the Jews supposed to go, Europe? to live in the countries that supported a dictator (Saddam Hussien) that was funding suicide bombings against the women and children of Israel.

Wasn't it just a few decades ago Germany supported a man in power decimating the Jews, and now they supported a regime that was paying families if their kids went up and blew Jewish kids up?

Who do you think you are? Please, go provide evidence of every European nation supporting Sadamm Hussein. I take grave offence to comments like these. If you're going to start talking about french business interests in Iraq etc. let me remind you who also went to Iraq to do business (our good friend Rummie, of the good ol' USofA), and in terms of terrorism, who armed the likes of Bin Laden...

To Jewish community have little to no problems where I live. No one here gives a rat's ass about religion, to be perfectly honest.

 

[whytemyke]

5) Without using the words "oil-for-food," explain how Europe was supporting Iraq.

6) Explain, in detail, Clinton's North Korea policy, and the results. Then explain, in detail, the current administration's North Korea policy, and the results.

France and Russia both had private oil contracts with the government of Iraq under UN resolution. Why do you think they didn't support us invading? Can't blame 'em, really... we'd do the same thing if France overthrew a government that owed us a shitload of money.

1994 DPRK Policy: Bribe them with food to get IAEA inspectors into the country. This gave us the situation we have now, where il just threw out the inspectors and demanded more.

2002 DRPK Policy: No bribes. They do what we want or we carpet bomb them. Delay with peace talks until we can get intel on locations of nukes and nuclear plants.

Not as confusing as you're making it sound, guy.

 

[bob_arctor]

Well, yeah. Where did much of that military might come from, right?

I was pointing out the obvious to somehow explain, just a little, maybe, why Israel is so "hated" (at least outside the U.S. apparently).

 

[bob_arctor]

France and Russia both had private oil contracts with the government of Iraq under UN resolution. Why do you think they didn't support us invading? Can't blame 'em, really... we'd do the same thing if France overthrew a government that owed us a shitload of money.

Didn't France just listen to the what, 90% of their country that was completely opposed to the invasion of Iraq? Or are we so cynical that we can somehow assume that the only reason France refused to "assist" the U.S. in an unjust invasion based on lies that had global opposition the second it was even intimated was money? It's funny how we can pull off some fucked up shit like that and still take the moral high ground--and I don't mean specifically you myke.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Didn't France just listen to the what, 90% of their country that was completely opposed to the invasion of Iraq? Or are we so cynical that we can somehow assume that the only reason France refused to "assist" the U.S. in an unjust invasion based on lies that had global opposition the second it was even intimated was money? It's funny how we can pull off some fucked up shit like that and still take the moral high ground--and I don't mean specifically you myke.

im definitely cynical. most countries, corporations, etc. think about two things first (money, power) .. then they try to fit the 'we do it for the people' crap wherever they can.

 

[golem]

1) Where is the evidence that anti-Semitism is "on the rise" in Europe? Evidence, not anecdotes. BONUS QUESTION: Have you ever been to Europe?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3586543.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3665373.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3670821.stm

 

[Socreges]

Because bish said so. Generally speaking, "bump" isn't considered to be a terribly constructive response to a thread.

Sure, but the 'response' raises a thread, half a day old, that died not by a lack of interest, but by the fact that it was posted when most of the board was asleep. Plus, it might encourage efralope to reply.

I was pointing out the obvious to somehow explain, just a little, maybe, why Israel is so "hated" (at least outside the U.S. apparently).

Ah, that had gone over my head.

 

[FightyF]

Arafat would never have done such things.

He actually has, but these forces would come under attacks from both the IDF as well as Palestinian terrorists. They were also poorly armed and trained. They have had their headquarters blown up by Israel as well.

As whytemyke mentioned, no one really had faith in Arafat and didn't say much when his efforts were hampered. But I'll agree that Abbas is doing a far better job than Arafat when it comes to actions.

 

[Dilbert]

Although I'd love to see a response from Braid Boy to Mandark's questions, I still can't get over the use of the pseudo-word "libbies."

What. The. Fuck.

 

[Alcibiades]

1) Where is the evidence that anti-Semitism is "on the rise" in Europe? Evidence, not anecdotes. BONUS QUESTION: Have you ever been to Europe?

-the google link I gave, the admission by French and German officials that they have to do something to stop it from growing

-I've never been to Europe

2) Are you Jewish? Or are you a goy using accusations of anti-Semitism as a political bludgeon, like Cathy Young?

-I'm not Jewish, but I call it like I see it;

3) Europe was "propping up" Arafat? Explain how Arafat's de facto power derived from Europe, instead of from Palestinians who considered him an authority figure.

-I never said his power rested soley on Europe, but no doubt that European acceptance of him helped legitimize him; by isolating him further, he might have gotten the message that no one supported his pseudo-support of terrorism nor his unwillingness to crack down on corruption and speak against suicide bombings...

4) In the original post, you say "where are the Jews meant to go, Europe?" List the mainstream officeholders and political groups that have stated a desire for Jews to leave Israel (all of Israel, not just the post-1967 territories). First-world countries only.

-what? I stated that the Jews aren't exactly welcome with open arms in Europe, which is quite different from the situation they find themselves in Isreal, which is of course mostly Jewish. I don't know how you took what I said, but basically I'm saying Hamas wants for Israel to be completely done away with, no European leaders...

5) Without using the words "oil-for-food," explain how Europe was supporting Iraq.

-Why is "oil-for-food" not a valid reason? giving into oil bribes in exchange for security council veteos seems like support enough for me

6) Explain, in detail, Clinton's North Korea policy, and the results. Then explain, in detail, the current administration's North Korea policy, and the results.

I know the jist of it:

Clinton: remain nuclear free in exchange for aid and hope they follow through

Bush: multi-lateral approach in hopes of arranging a agreement with several contries directly affected by North Korea's actions...

7) Were Saddam's payments to families of suicide bombers PR stunts, or a major contributing factor to those attacks?

-does it matter? I think it was both; there was definitely a drop in attacks after the invasion of Iraq, but at the same time even if it were a PR stunt with the aim of riling up support from anti-Jewish factions in the Middle-East, then it's pretty much a positive result he is gone;

 

[Saturnman]

I see the there's blight for the Palestinians under Jewish occupation, but where are the Jews supposed to go, Europe?

If it were possible to turn back the clock somehow, most could hypothetically return to Europe and North America. And it would be within their means considering Israelis are relatively well off. Israel is not a hellhole, a bottomless pit where desperate people can not escape. THey have mobility, the same one that allowed millions to emigrate there.

I can understand after the trauma of the Shoah, the drive to have a homeland, but considering Israel's short but tumultous history, they are in a hostile neighbourhood and have been on the brink of disaster with 3 major wars. They may still way in the risks and choose to have a homeland, but Israel is no absolute safe haven.

To me, Jews still living in Western countries have it easier than Gypsies or American Indians. Some people still hate them, but collectively, they've done pretty good for themselves. And part of Israel's wealth is the remaining diaspora still contributing back to the Promised Land.