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[Surta]

Welp... There it is then. There currently is no RGB output from the GC. How exactly does this translate to scart, I wonder. Is scart YCbCr capable? If not then it would be so damn funny and lame if it re-encoded YUV to RGB. Haha!

Well, YUV is just a way of encoding RGB, usually employed because it's easier to compress, with or without chroma subsampling (i.e. reducing the precision of the two chroma or "color" channels).
YUY2 does do chroma subsampling. It only needs 2/3rds the memory of RGB, because it stores the chroma information in halved horizontal (but full vertical) resolution.

YCbCr is digital. YPbPr is analog. SCART is normally used for analog and interlaced RGB. It can theoretically do YPbPr, but I think that'd be quite exotic, and still only interlaced, not progressive scan.

I don't know how EU GCs produce the analog RGB signal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it really goes RGB -> YUY2 -> RGB (analog & interlaced).

 

[televator]

No that's just internal. It's not really 're-encoding' to RGB, YUV is really just a compressed RGB signal. Your TV ultimately displays in RGB, it's where colour information begins and ends.

The GC's internal DAC does the simple conversion of YUV back to RGB for scart (and does composite and S-video for NTSC cubes).

All it means is the lost colour information of YUV isn't there in the RGB output. But it's not that much of a loss anyway.

The advantage of GCN component cables has nothing to do with colour format. It's the extremely high quality DAC in the cable.

I see what you're saying and its a good point that perhaps the component DAC is better than the onboard stuff inside the GC. Yet, it still seems to me like there is no true RGB comming out the AV port via scart, which only adds to the advantage of the official component cable.

YCbCr is digital. YPbPr is analog.

Right. I just get the Cs and Ps mixed. Lol

 

[D.Lo]

I see what you're saying and its a good point that perhaps the component DAC is better than the onboard stuff inside the GC. Yet, it still seems to me like there is no true RGB comming out the AV port via scart, which only adds to the advantage of the official component cablel

The signal on the scart cable is RGB. It's 'true' RGB. It's just already been compressed and decompressed.

Yes the tiny advantage of RGB's colour range is lost.

 

[televator]

The signal on the scart cable is RGB. It's 'true' RGB. It's just already been compressed and decompressed.

Yes the tiny advantage of RGB's colour range is lost.

What I'm saying is it wasn't RGB along every step. An image that started as 1080p, then downcaled to 720, and upscaled again to 1080 can be 'true' 1080p looking purely at the signal on the cable, but it ultimately lost information compared to where it started.

 

[D.Lo]

What I'm saying is it wasn't RGB along every step. An image that started as 1080p, then downcaled to 720, and upscaled again to 1080 can be 'true' 1080p looking purely at the signal on the cable, but it ultimately lost information compared to where it started.

Yes that's true, colour information has technically been lost.

Quite a few of the best looking Gamecube games run in 16 bit colour anyway, so extra colour bandwidth would barely make any difference.

 

[Jamix012]

I find it super fascinating how this stuff, with all the commotion over $200+ component cables, hasn't surfaced to gamecube collector knowledge sooner. Here's a question I've wanted to know the answer to: does the Gamecube render at an internal resolution and then upscale if nessecary? I ask because I'm curious if 576i games are actually 576i or if they're just upscaled 480i.

 

[Peltz]

I find it super fascinating how this stuff, with all the commotion over $200+ component cables, hasn't surfaced to gamecube collector knowledge sooner. Here's a question I've wanted to know the answer to: does the Gamecube render at an internal resolution and then upscale if nessecary? I ask because I'm curious if 576i games are actually 576i or if they're just upscaled 480i.

What would be the point of upscaling? Did PAL sets not process 480i very well?

 

[Jamix012]

What would be the point of upscaling? Did PAL sets not process 480i very well?

Yeah, back in the day PAL sets didn't universally support 480i so most PAL games have the option of 50hz 576i or 60hz 480i also. Some games only supported 480i, like the Zelda bonus discs and some games only supported 576i, like Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin 1 and Doshin the Giant. My question is, did Nintendo give enough of a shit to have native 576i output on PAL games or did the system just take 480i and upscale it.

 

[televator]

I would assume that since its running at the lower 50 Hz refresh rate, the 576 resolution is native and not the result of an upscale. It would still cost processing resources to do the upscale anyway.

 

[devildog820]

So I found my old gamecube games stored in those little disc wallets. No jewel cases, unfortunately. Ex made me throw them all away. Ocarina of Time, Eternal Darkness, Bond, I think the original Zelda games. And some more. And at least one wavebird (not in the wallet).

Anyone want that? All I ask is paypal for USPS priority for whatever it costs to send boxed up to you. I would guess less than $10.

 

[Peltz]

So I found my old gamecube games stored in those little disc wallets. No jewel cases, unfortunately. Ex made me throw them all away.

That bitch!

Edit: I'd take it, but I really prefer cib stuff for GCN. I'm certain someone else will jump on it though.

 

[Jamix012]

So I found my old gamecube games stored in those little disc wallets. No jewel cases, unfortunately. Ex made me throw them all away. Ocarina of Time, Eternal Darkness, Bond, I think the original Zelda games. And some more. And at least one wavebird (not in the wallet).

Anyone want that? All I ask is paypal for USPS priority for whatever it costs to send boxed up to you. I would guess less than $10.

I will absolutely take them! I'll even throw you a bit of cash!

 

[televator]

So I found my old gamecube games stored in those little disc wallets. No jewel cases, unfortunately. Ex made me throw them all away. Ocarina of Time, Eternal Darkness, Bond, I think the original Zelda games. And some more. And at least one wavebird (not in the wallet).

Anyone want that? All I ask is paypal for USPS priority for whatever it costs to send boxed up to you. I would guess less than $10.

I would jump on them all, but I already have all the games you mentioned. Better let another GAFfer in need take it. I might be interested in ones you haven't mentioned though if I don't already own them.

 

[sixteen-bit]

that's a really nice gesture, devildog

 

[D.Lo]

Yeah, back in the day PAL sets didn't universally support 480i so most PAL games have the option of 50hz 576i or 60hz 480i also. Some games only supported 480i, like the Zelda bonus discs and some games only supported 576i, like Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin 1 and Doshin the Giant. My question is, did Nintendo give enough of a shit to have native 576i output on PAL games or did the system just take 480i and upscale it.

Depends on the game.
Proper PAL conversions run at full 576. They're actually rendered at 576p (and you can force them to display that way using Swiss).

Wind Waker and Metroid Prime 1 look significantly cleaner, with less dithering, in 576i over 480i on a CRT. Shame MP2 is just the NTSC version dumped on a disc.

 

[Peltz]

Depends on the game.
Proper PAL conversions run at full 576. They're actually rendered at 576p (and you can force them to display that way using Swiss).

Wind Waker and Metroid Prime 1 look significantly cleaner, with less dithering, in 576i over 480i on a CRT. Shame MP2 is just the NTSC version dumped on a disc.

Cool info. Any comparison pics between GCN games in 480p and 576p?

 

[alf717]

Anyone try out Game Boy Interface? Retro Gaming did a write up about it. This gives you better gamplay options while trying to play on the big screen such as a better sync rate that attempts to match the orignal GBA hardware, 240P and vibrant colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maT2M68z3vk

Can anyone one recommend how someone in the US can order the Datel SD media launcher? I found the UK site but not sure if they ship to the US.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I'll give it a go. Sounds like an upgrade over the GBP, even through Swiss.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Sigh. I just can't win. Bought an orange Gamecube, seller said it was a DOL-001. Emails me today, says "oh, actually, it's a DOL-101."

Thankfully, he let me know before shipping the thing, but what a pain in the ass this is.

 

[FSLink]

Can anyone one recommend how someone in the US can order the Datel SD media launcher? I found the UK site but not sure if they ship to the US.

I received mine in the mail last week from the UK site and I'm in Hawaii so it should be fine.

 

[Mercutio]

Sigh. I just can't win. Bought an orange Gamecube, seller said it was a DOL-001. Emails me today, says "oh, actually, it's a DOL-101."

Thankfully, he let me know before shipping the thing, but what a pain in the ass this is.

You do the lord's work if you still take delivery of it and have it destroyed.

 

[D.Lo]

Cool info. Any comparison pics between GCN games in 480p and 576p?

i don't have any capture stuff, sorry.

 

[Emperor Bohe]

That bitch!

Edit: I'd take it, but I really prefer cib stuff for GCN. I'm certain someone else will jump on it though.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Anyone try out Game Boy Interface? Retro Gaming did a write up about it. This gives you better gamplay options while trying to play on the big screen such as a better sync rate that attempts to match the orignal GBA hardware, 240P and vibrant colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maT2M68z3vk

Can anyone one recommend how someone in the US can order the Datel SD media launcher? I found the UK site but not sure if they ship to the US.

This is really cool. Only thing, the ultra-low latency version ran in grayscale for me. Is it a PAL signal or something? The regular low latency ver worked great.

 

[dhonk]

This is really cool. Only thing, the ultra-low latency version ran in grayscale for me. Is it a PAL signal or something? The regular low latency ver worked great.

What output are you using? Svideo will be black and white in ULL.

 

[sixteen-bit]

What output are you using? Svideo will be black and white in ULL.

That's the culprit. Thanks.

If I were to import a PAL cube and use RGB cables, would that work fine with ULL?

 

[alf717]

Thanks for the update on the Game Boy Interface software. I want to locate the SD software even more now. I use to play Battle Network 3 on GBA player using the original software. I guess I never really picked up on the frame skipping issue. I could S rank Bowl Man with ease to get a V5 chip and could dodge his pins with ease. It is great to know that it is even cleaner and smoother to play on now using the new software.

 

[catabarez]

I've been playing games with GBi and I can't seem to get the ULL version to work.

 

[Peltz]

This is really cool. Only thing, the ultra-low latency version ran in grayscale for me. Is it a PAL signal or something? The regular low latency ver worked great.

Is the frame stutter actually gone?

Any other impressions?

 

[entremet]

Are the Hori SNES style Gamecube pads worth it?

 

[Peltz]

Are the Hori SNES style Gamecube pads worth it?

I really dig mine. Absolutely no complaints and I'm very persnickety about my controllers. It feels 1st party in quality.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Are the Hori SNES style Gamecube pads worth it?

They're... OK.

My major beef is that the D-pad is so much stiffer than original SNES pads. At the price they command nowadays that makes it difficult to recommend.

 

[Peltz]

They're... OK.

My major beef is that the D-pad is so much stiffer than original SNES pads.

I actually consider that a good thing.

 

[Balb]

Are the Hori SNES style Gamecube pads worth it?

It feels good in your hands because of the small grips in the back and the d-pad feels good. The face button layout can be hit or miss for classic games but that ultimately depends on what you plan on using it for. If you can find it for a decent price I'd highly recommend it.

 

[entremet]

It feels good in your hands because of the small grips in the back and the d-pad feels good. The face button layout can be hit or miss for classic games but that ultimately depends on what you plan on using it for. If you can find it for a decent price I'd highly recommend it.

I'm just looking at my library and probably the best fit would be 4Swords as the rest are 2D games.

Gen 5 really eschewed 2d games on consoles, sadly.

Maybe I should get a GBPlayer.

 

[sixteen-bit]

One nice feature of the GBPlayer is you can use a Game Boy as a controller if you have the GC->GBA link cable. I like doing that with my AGB-001 model. I don't think it works like that for other games unless they explicitly support it like your FFCCs and Pac Vs., etc.

 

[Peltz]

I'm just looking at my library and probably the best fit would be 4Swords as the rest are 2D games.

Gen 5 really eschewed 2d games on consoles, sadly.

Maybe I should get a GBPlayer.

GB Player is good because it (obviously) lets you play GBA carts on the big screen. But as anyone will tell you, it has a lot of problems. There's input lag (even with a CRT), framestuttering, blurry visuals, and no 240p support.

Some of these drawbacks can be eliminated with homebrew software though. Still, my ideal setup is a real GBA SP AGS-101 or a DS Light for perfect 1:1 pixel mapping.

 

[entremet]

GB Player is good because it (obviously) lets you play GBA carts on the big screen. But as anyone will tell you, it has a lot of problems. There's input lag (even with a CRT), framestuttering, blurry visuals, and no 240p support.

Some of these drawbacks can be eliminated with homebrew software though. Still, my ideal setup is a real GBA SP AGS-101 or a DS Light for perfect 1:1 pixel mapping.

I prefer the DSLite too.

I don't like the cramped style of the SP model. The original GBA was probably the best ergonomically. Too bad the screen lacked a back light.

 

[Peltz]

I prefer the DSLite too.

I don't like the cramped style of the SP model. The original GBA was probably the best ergonomically. Too bad the screen was lacked a back light.

Some people (Peagles I think?) were modding OG GBAs with GBA SP screens. You might want to look into it, although I also remember reading that those screens are harder to come by now.

 

[tesla246]

Cool info. Any comparison pics between GCN games in 480p and 576p?

Your post made me do a comparison between 576p and 480p. No pics, because I do not have any capture stuff, however, here is my research:

Testing setup:
-Gamecube with component cables.
-Tested 480p NTSC version as well as 576 PAL version through swiss iso loading with wasp fusion (I own both versions; Pal version was a leftover from my old collection before I decided to collect NTSC games exclusively)
-No added settings (such as widescreen mod etc.).
-Tested game is Mario Kart Double Dash.

To me it seems like there is an increase in vertical resolution only for the 576p version as opposed to the 480p version. I may post phone pics if anyone is interested, however, this article may prove more useful:

http://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Swiss/Forced_Progressive_Compatibility_List

Now, this is were it gets interesting (I'm not 100% sure on this). I did a time trial test lap on Luigi Circuit with a stopwatch next to me. No AI present to knock me over, no mushrooms used which you get at time trial and, both test-runs involved me using the exact same cart/characters. Additionally no use of boost pads, not drifting and following the same driving line.

The NTSC 480p 60hz lap took me 33 seconds, while the forced 576p 50hz one took me about 39 seconds, a difference of 6 seconds. The PAL game at 50hz also felt a lot slower than it's NTSC 480p 60hz counterpart. Now, I hear you saying: ''well that is because you forced to display into behaviour it's not programmed to''. Well, I actually ran the (PAL) test lap again, this time not forcing 576p, just normal 576i and 50hz like Nintendo intended and guess what: it took me, again, 39 seconds. Also, 33 to 39 is the same ratio as 60Hz is to 50Hz respectively (when taking into account my slight variations in lap time).

So PAL 50hz mode, even during the gamecube era, is essentailly slower than NTSC 60: as in the gameplay is slower, just like in the old SNES days. Of course, the difference is that they did (correctly) adjust the speed of the music to sound identical in both 60hz and 50 hz, something we mostly missed out on back in the old days.

PAL 60hz plays fine (speed-wise), but trades the increased resolution for black bars on top and bottom. I always thought that 50hz during the gamecube era was better optomized than on earlier consoles; it would drop 10 frames, but a second in the game would still be a second irl, regardless of hz and thus gameplay would not be slowed down.

Now, I may very well be wrong, or it may just affect one game (Double Dash), but I wouldn't be surprised if PAL 50Hz affects other games similarly. Would be interested in other peoples findings.

EDIT: I think I used a ntsc cube, alltough that shouldn't make a difference now would it?

 

[Rich!]

Your post made me do a comparison between 576p and 480p. No pics, because I do not have any capture stuff, however, here is my research:

Testing setup:
-Gamecube with component cables.
-Tested 480p NTSC version as well as 576 PAL version through swiss iso loading with wasp fusion (I own both versions; Pal version was a leftover from my old collection before I decided to collect NTSC games exclusively)
-No added settings (such as widescreen mod etc.).
-Tested game is Mario Kart Double Dash.

To me it seems like there is an increase in vertical resolution only for the 576p version as opposed to the 480p version. I may post phone pics if anyone is interested, however, this article may prove more useful:

http://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Swiss/Forced_Progressive_Compatibility_List

Now, this is were it gets interesting (I'm not 100% sure on this). I did a time trial test lap on Luigi Circuit with a stopwatch next to me. No AI present to knock me over, no mushrooms used which you get at time trial and, both test-runs involved me using the exact same cart/characters. Additionally no use of boost pads, not drifting and following the same driving line.

The NTSC 480p 60hz lap took me 33 seconds, while the forced 576p 50hz one took me about 39 seconds, a difference of 6 seconds. The PAL game at 50hz also felt a lot slower than it's NTSC 480p 60hz counterpart. Now, I hear you saying: ''well that is because you forced to display into behaviour it's not programmed to''. Well, I actually ran the (PAL) test lap again, this time not forcing 576p, just normal 576i and 50hz like Nintendo intended and guess what: it took me, again, 39 seconds. Also, 33 to 39 is the same ratio as 60Hz is to 50Hz respectively (when taking into account my slight variations in lap time).

So PAL 50hz mode, even during the gamecube era, is essentailly slower than NTSC 60: as in the gameplay is slower, just like in the old SNES days. Of course, the difference is that they did (correctly) adjust the speed of the music to sound identical in both 60hz and 50 hz, something we mostly missed out on back in the old days.

PAL 60hz plays fine (speed-wise), but trades the increased resolution for black bars on top and bottom. I always thought that 50hz during the gamecube era was better optomized than on earlier consoles; it would drop 10 frames, but a second in the game would still be a second irl, regardless of hz and thus gameplay would not be slowed down.

Now, I may very well be wrong, or it may just affect one game (Double Dash), but I wouldn't be surprised if PAL 50Hz affects other games similarly. Would be interested in other peoples findings.

EDIT: I think I used a ntsc cube, alltough that shouldn't make a difference now would it?

Did you not know this before?

That's why game magazines had different entries for PAL and NTSC versions of the same game in their competition sections.

 

[tesla246]

Did you not know this before?

That's why game magazines had different entries for PAL and NTSC versions of the same game in their competition sections.

I know it was common practice before the gamecube era (NES, SNES, N64). However, I (wrongly) assumed PAL 50hz was optomized speed-wise during the Cube era. Thought I'd share it here; maybe someone else assumed alike

So presumably (based on my Double Dash testing), the number of PAL games that benefit from increased (vertical) resolution in 576p as opposed to 480p are crippled by slower gameplay. Would be interested in a list of PAL games forced in 576p that have increased resolution when selecting 60Hz. Double Dash that I tested adds black bars @576p+60Hz.

 

[thebisonxrc]

Hi everyone,

Now that I've caught up with my Wii U collection, I'll be slowly getting into collecting GC games that I (regretfully) sold years ago.

Back when I played GC, I didn't much care for the image quality, as I never had a very nice TV. Now, things have changed, and I'm very curious about the component cable setup. I'm not sure if I'll go forth with it, as the games themselves are more important to me, but I figured I'd ask a couple questions, anyhow.

Is it difficult to find a dol-001 console? Are the component cables really $200-300? Or am I looking at the wrong stuff on eBay?

Thanks!

 

[chaosblade]

Hi everyone,

Now that I've caught up with my Wii U collection, I'll be slowly getting into collecting GC games that I (regretfully) sold years ago.

Back when I played GC, I didn't much care for the image quality, as I never had a very nice TV. Now, things have changed, and I'm very curious about the component cable setup. I'm not sure if I'll go forth with it, as the games themselves are more important to me, but I figured I'd ask a couple questions, anyhow.

Is it difficult to find a dol-001 console? Are the component cables really $200-300? Or am I looking at the wrong stuff on eBay?

Thanks!

Unless collectors have bought most of them up recently, I don't think the console should be too hard to find unless you are looking for specific colors that weren't made in large quantities. Might cost a little more than a 101 model though. I'm kind of curious what the breakdown is for the number of manufactured 001s vs 101s though, I'd think they would have made more during the first half of the system's life than the second. But maybe not.

Yes, component cables are pretty ridiculous. You're honestly better off going with a Wii and component cables even though they are slightly worse if you are more concerned more about image quality than collecting. Then of course there are options like Dolphin and Nintendont if you are really concerned about image quality, both will provide better output than the GC does.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Thinking about importing a PAL cube for 240p RGB Game Boy Player action.
Questions:
1. Would I need a specialized SCART cable, or can I use the same one I use on my NA SNES?
2. Will the SD Media Launcher disc work on a PAL Cube? I should be all set with hardware since the GBPlayer itself is universal, but will I need a PAL region SD launcher?

Thanks.

 

[Jamix012]

Thinking about importing a PAL cube for 240p RGB Game Boy Player action.
Questions:
1. Would I need a specialized SCART cable, or can I use the same one I use on my NA SNES?
2. Will the SD Media Launcher disc work on a PAL Cube? I should be all set with hardware since the GBPlayer itself is universal, but will I need a PAL region SD launcher?

Thanks.

You should read the past few pages: the 'Cube doesn't have a true RGB output. Though it'd be a bit better than S Video, if you don't have component cables.

 

[D.Lo]

Thinking about importing a PAL cube for 240p RGB Game Boy Player action.
Questions:
1. Would I need a specialized SCART cable, or can I use the same one I use on my NA SNES?
2. Will the SD Media Launcher disc work on a PAL Cube? I should be all set with hardware since the GBPlayer itself is universal, but will I need a PAL region SD launcher?

Thanks.

1) Yes, NTSC SNES RGB scart cable will work great. Ironically a PAL SNES RGB cable isn't suitable!

2) You need a PAL SD launcher.

You should read the past few pages: the 'Cube doesn't have a true RGB output. Though it'd be a bit better than S Video, if you don't have component cables.

It just uses a technically more limited colour space internally, it outputs in RGB fine. I dare anyone to be able to tell the difference on 16 bit colour.

In fact, in terms of delivering analogue signals over cables, the more bandwidth efficient component signal will almost certainly have less interference/loss than an RGB signal, so the end result would be better in the real world.

 

[Jamix012]

It just uses a technically more limited colour space internally, it outputs in RGB fine. I dare anyone to be able to tell the difference on 16 bit colour. In fact, in terms of delivering analogue signals over cables, the more bandwidth efficient component signal will almost certainly have less interference/loss than an RGB signal, so the end result would be better irrespective of the 'trueness' of the source.

Outputting RGB that was converted to YUV and back again is just YUV recoded into RGB. Which I mean, I agree no one will be able to tell the difference, but it's the same signal the component cables get, except the component cables output 480p and have a better DAC.

 

[D.Lo]

Outputting RGB that was converted to YUV and back again is just YUV recoded into RGB. Which I mean, I agree no one will be able to tell the difference, but it's the same signal the component cables get, except the component cables output 480p and have a better DAC.

He's specifically looking at a PAL cube for 240p, 480p is irrelevant. PAL and Scart cable is the best and easiest solution if you already have RGB infrastructure in place (PVM, Framemesiter etc). And it doesn't cost $300 like a component cable.

 

[Peltz]

How's Donkey Konga? Is there multiplayer? I'm seriously contemplating picking up the game + two sets of kongas to play against my GF. She has a real love for rhythm games and is insanely good at them... especially DDR.