Support NeoGAF

[Thraktor]

Have you guys seen this?

Leica M Monochrom

18-megapixel black and white rangefinder!

It's got an 18 megapixel full-frame true black and white sensor (ie. it only picks up luminance, no colour values). This means that there's no anti-aliasing filter, no colour filter array, no demosaicing and no interpolation, resulting in some seriously sharp photos. It also allows it to hit 10000 ISO, up from 2500 on the M9. Everything else seems to be pretty similar to the M9.

DPReview have a preview here, with some pretty impressive sample photos, although none at really high ISOs yet.

Anyone want to lend me $8000? I swear I'm good for it!

 

[Zyzyxxz]

Can someone explain the benefits of having an only black and white sensor?

But jeez as if the M9 isn't pricey enough now Leica releases a special purpose one with limited use.

 

[GamePnoy74]

If that M-Monochrom ain't crazy enough, how about this...

Choice of $25K...or $50K Hermes-branded kits, yo.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/10/leica-hermes-m9-p/

If you've ever wondered if designer names alone can send a product's price tag through the roof, this should suffice as confirmation. Hermès, the Parisian fashion giant best known for its prohibitively expensive wearable accessories, has teamed up with Leica for some creative marketing. Two special M9-P editions will be available -- a total of 300 Edition Hermès digital rangefinders will ship beginning in June for $25,000, while 100 "very special" (even more exclusive) Edition Hermès - Série Limitée Jean-Louis Dumas models will be available in July for, ahem, $50,000 (that's fifty thousand, in case you assumed it was a typo).

Likely realizing that it would be insanely absurd to unload the M9-P for either price without lenses included, Leica has opted to offer both as complete kits. The less expensive version uses some fancy calfskin leather with a silver chrome finish, and ships with a Leica Summilux-M 50 mm f/1.4 ASPH. optic. The "very special" version, on the other hand, includes a Leica Summicron-M 28 mm f/2 ASPH., a Leica Noctilux-M 50 mm f/0.95 ASPH. and a Leica APO-Summicron-M 90 mm f/2 ASPH -- all finished in anodized silver. It also comes with a bag and a book. Due to the incredibly limited production run, you'll probably want to pitch a tent (or have your assistant park their assistant's Maybach) outside the Washington DC Leica Store, beginning sometime later this month.

 

[tino]

Normally colored pixel are built in GBGR pattern. So you get 4 RGB pixels out of them by calculating the color pixel around them. It's kind of like an anti-alais filter built into the interpolate calculation.

Without the colorred sub pixels, you get higher resolution, and hopefully higher dynamic range?

 

[JORMBO]

Instead of buying some more lenses (and because I have been playing around with some busted borrowed ones) I am thinking about getting some high quality (ok entry level) studio lights.

It's pretty impressive what a large softbox with a powerful strobe can do compared to a speedlite.

I've been looking at this kit http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035WTD8A/?tag=neogaf0e-20 as a starting place, seems nice but I have to admit the lighting world is a whole new arena of photography I don't really know much about.

I use Alienbees + Pocket Wizards, but I have heard good things about Elinchroms. Seems like a nice kit. You may want to look into adding a bigger softbox, but it depends on what you are going for. I usually just use really small modifiers for hair & rim, or if I want a lot of shadow/fall off up front.

 

[Thraktor]

Can someone explain the benefits of having an only black and white sensor?

But jeez as if the M9 isn't pricey enough now Leica releases a special purpose one with limited use.

Well, on a standard camera, each photosite only picks up a one colour component, either red, green or blue. In order to output a full resolution image, the camera has to interpolate (or demosaic) the other colour components of each pixel based on neighbouring pixels. This blurs the resulting image, and can also cause 'aliasing' when presented with fine detail (ie harsh patterns appearing on the image). To reduce aliasing, most cameras also feature a 'low-pass filter' or 'anti-aliasing filter' in front of the sensor, which are basically euphamisms for a blur filter, which further reduces the detail. In comparison, with a black and white sensor, each photosite equals one pixel, so there's no demosaicing involved and you get a perfectly sharp image.

To show how good it is, here's a 100% crop of one of DPReview's sample photos:

Wood grain like that can cause significant problems for colour cameras, either resulting in nasty aliasing effects or noticable blur and lack of detail. In comparison, the M Monochrom produces absolutely perfect detail with no issues whatsoever.

The second main benefit is the ability to shoot at much higher ISOs. As each photosite on a traditional sensor has a colour filter in front of it, it's effectively having 2/3rds of the light blocked before it even gets picked up. By removing the colour filters you get roughly three times the number of photons hitting each photosite, meaning greater sensitivity in low light and hence higher ISOs.

There's also a difference in how the noise is processed in higher-ISO images. On colour cameras at high ISOs, if you look at 100% zoom level you'll notice a very splotchy coloured noise pattern, which is a result of the way the anti-aliasing filter and demosaicing process the noise as it gets captured. In contrast, a black and white camera will produce true per-pixel noise. This produces an aesthetic much closer to film grain, and if you want to remove the noise, post-processing should be able to do so with far less impact on the sharpness of the image.

That all being said, this is obviously a very niche product, as not many people are going to want to drop $8000 (plus the not insignificant cost of Leica lenses) on a camera that can't even take colour photos. I'd imagine that it's aimed at existing Leica enthusiasts who do a lot of B&W and have a healthy bank balance, and perhaps even that dwindling group of film-only photographers who might be swayed by a camera that produces a much more filmic image.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The new 50mm F/2 Summicron Aspherical APO is a fricken marvel. But at $7.3K its something I can only pine about. It looks like one of those special lenses where aperture doesn't matter anymore, f/2 to f/11 you shoot for DoF considerations since its so strong from wide open. With that said I'd rather save $3K and get a Leica 50/1.4 Summilux. At this point we're talking 'good enough'. Of course this is a totally hypothetical situation smh

Also the M9-M is an extension of the M9 (obviously). Its going to be real interesting what they have in store for the M10 considering the advent of non-rangefinder mirrorless cameras. But Leica is such a specialty line that maybe the two shouldn't even be compared or thought to be effecting each other.

 

[DataStream]

The images from that Leica are unreal. The detail of the scarf in this image is really remarkable when you view the whole image blown up.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/r...dng?inalbum=leica-m-monochrom-preview-samples

 

[golem]

Wow the detail is awesome

 

[East Lake]

I do wonder how many people Leica expect to buy this thing though. I'm sure they've considered the financial consequences but do they think the dudes shooting tri-x on m-mount are going to jump all over an 8000$ camera that has none of the character that film does?

 

[Thraktor]

Well, keep in mind that they're effectively assembled to order, and the components are 99% identical to the M9, so there's very little inventory risk. Hell, they could probably sell as few as 100 of these and still turn a profit.

I was somewhat joking about converting film-only photographers, but I'd imagine that there are a decent number of M9 owners who used to shoot B&W on older Leicas and only switched to digital for the convenience. They may well consider the M Monochrom as a second body that's closer to their old photographic style without sacrificing the convenience.

Of course the other potential targets are those who just want the sharpest image possible and are willing to pay (and sacrifice colour) for it.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Gorgeous images, to be sure. But I don't think Leica's too concerned about selling these things to photographers anymore.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

Why can't Leica just make something I can afford for once

Stop making cameras just for Kanye or whoever

 

[Radec]

M9 + Silver Efex Pro can do the job.

Hell even the D800/E can outperform this if we're just talking about details.

 

[Zyzyxxz]

Well, on a standard camera, each photosite only picks up a one colour component, either red, green or blue. In order to output a full resolution image, the camera has to interpolate (or demosaic) the other colour components of each pixel based on neighbouring pixels. This blurs the resulting image, and can also cause 'aliasing' when presented with fine detail (ie harsh patterns appearing on the image). To reduce aliasing, most cameras also feature a 'low-pass filter' or 'anti-aliasing filter' in front of the sensor, which are basically euphamisms for a blur filter, which further reduces the detail. In comparison, with a black and white sensor, each photosite equals one pixel, so there's no demosaicing involved and you get a perfectly sharp image.

To show how good it is, here's a 100% crop of one of DPReview's sample photos:

Wood grain like that can cause significant problems for colour cameras, either resulting in nasty aliasing effects or noticable blur and lack of detail. In comparison, the M Monochrom produces absolutely perfect detail with no issues whatsoever.

The second main benefit is the ability to shoot at much higher ISOs. As each photosite on a traditional sensor has a colour filter in front of it, it's effectively having 2/3rds of the light blocked before it even gets picked up. By removing the colour filters you get roughly three times the number of photons hitting each photosite, meaning greater sensitivity in low light and hence higher ISOs.

There's also a difference in how the noise is processed in higher-ISO images. On colour cameras at high ISOs, if you look at 100% zoom level you'll notice a very splotchy coloured noise pattern, which is a result of the way the anti-aliasing filter and demosaicing process the noise as it gets captured. In contrast, a black and white camera will produce true per-pixel noise. This produces an aesthetic much closer to film grain, and if you want to remove the noise, post-processing should be able to do so with far less impact on the sharpness of the image.

That all being said, this is obviously a very niche product, as not many people are going to want to drop $8000 (plus the not insignificant cost of Leica lenses) on a camera that can't even take colour photos. I'd imagine that it's aimed at existing Leica enthusiasts who do a lot of B&W and have a healthy bank balance, and perhaps even that dwindling group of film-only photographers who might be swayed by a camera that produces a much more filmic image.

Thanks for taking the time to type this out, interesting read. Is this Leica the only digital camera to have a black and white sensor or are there cheaper alternatives to try out?

 

[Radec]

Thanks for taking the time to type this out, interesting read. Is this Leica the only digital camera to have a black and white sensor or are there cheaper alternatives to try out?

Kodak Professional DCS Pro 14n M is the first one that did it.

 

[tino]

Why can't Leica just make something I can afford for once

Stop making cameras just for Kanye or whoever

I am sure you can afford the reskinned LX5.

 

[DietRob]

I'm already finding the limitations of my kit lenses and I've only had this T2i for one day.

This hobby is going to be worse on my wallet than a steam sale.

 

[cbox]

I'm already finding the limitations of my kit lenses and I've only had this T2i for one day.

This hobby is going to be worse on my wallet than a steam sale.

This is only the beginning

 

[DietRob]

This is only the beginning

Oh, god. I know. I know.

I think I'm going to really take advantage of the used lens market. Sure I probably won't have the newest top of the line gear but at least I won't cry myself to sleep at night.

 

[Flo_Evans]

LoLeica

As crazy as it is, I would love to have one, but I could never live with myself paying that much for a B&W only camera.

I use Alienbees + Pocket Wizards, but I have heard good things about Elinchroms. Seems like a nice kit. You may want to look into adding a bigger softbox, but it depends on what you are going for. I usually just use really small modifiers for hair & rim, or if I want a lot of shadow/fall off up front.

I was looking at the alien bees, they seem to be the best bang for your buck. Reasonably priced modifiers too.

I really want to get a large octa reflector...

but $1400, damn. http://www.elinchrom.us/octa-light-bank-74

I'm also a bit conflicted, it would be nice to have some continuous lights for video stuff. It would be great if the softboxes/reflectors would work with those too.

 

[Gabyskra]

Anyone excited about the Sigma DP2 Merrill? I am. I can't wait for its price to be known. If it's under 700 dollars, I know I'll consider it.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

This is only the beginning

I finally decided to expand my accessories as I'm traveling in Europe for the summer. Over the past few weeks I've gotten a new bag, tripod, battery, battery grip, 32GB memory card, and flash. I was making due without all of that but figured I should plunk the money down right now in preparation. I may get a zoom lens as well, but shit it all just keeps adding up.

Edit:

Oh yeah, I'm still debating on what strap to get...

 

[Tonza]

I will be most likely changing my Fuji X100 to a mirrorless ILC.

The ones I've been looking at are Sony NEX-5n and Panasonic GX1. Im leaning towards the 5n because of the much better sensor. Also has anyone dared to test/get the Pentax K-01? I know it's kinda huge compared to the others but the sensor is nice and it has the K-mount.

Update on my camera quest. I will most likely be selling my X100 this weekend and will probably buy a new camera next week.

atm, Im leaning towards GX1 more than the NEX-series because of the lenses. I also took a look at the viewfinder cameras and the entry-level ones aren't as big as I remembered. Something like Sony SLT-A35 or Nikon D3200 seems pretty small. But still, GX1 is much smaller and the portability is a great feature on a camera in my opinion. GX1 also has pretty fast auto-focus from what I've gathered.

Deciding on a camera is way too hard...

 

[Gabyskra]

Update on my camera quest. I will most likely be selling my X100 this weekend and will probably buy a new camera next week.

atm, Im leaning towards GX1 more than the NEX-series because of the lenses. I also took a look at the viewfinder cameras and the entry-level ones aren't as big as I remembered. Something like Sony SLT-A35 or Nikon D3200 seems pretty small. But still, GX1 is much smaller and the portability is a great feature on a camera in my opinion. GX1 also has pretty fast auto-focus from what I've gathered.

Deciding on a camera is way too hard...

I can not imagine going from a x100 to those cameras. Not saying you're wrong, but man, I would think twice if I were you. I know I would never do it in a million years. The x100 general image quality, how well it handles 6400 ISO, the general ergonomy, the AMAZING viewfinder... Its size has never been a problem for me, it's always in the pocket of my leather jacket.

 

[Tonza]

I can not imagine going from a x100 to those cameras. Not saying you're wrong, but man, I would think twice if I were you. I know I would never do it in a million years. The x100 general image quality, how well it handles 6400 ISO, the general ergonomy, the AMAZING viewfinder... Its size has never been a problem for me, it's always in the pocket of my leather jacket.

The size is not, the fixed lens is. 35mm just doesn't cut it in all situations. It is an awesome camera and I would keep it as a carry around camera if I had the money to have a DSLR and the X100.

But you have to make choices...

 

[Gabyskra]

The size is not, the fixed lens is. 35mm just doesn't cut it in all situations. It is an awesome camera and I would keep it as a carry around camera if I had the money to have a DSLR and the X100.

But you have to make choices...

What focal length do you find yourself missing?

 

[Tonza]

What focal length do you find yourself missing?

I'd say 50mm and ~85mm. The X100 has been generally wide enough. (though I would consider getting a wide angle lens)

I don't really have use for telephoto lens etc.

 

[Danoss]

Oh yeah, I'm still debating on what strap to get...

I've purchased and tried a number of straps looking for the right one. I recently purchased the Luma Cinch strap, and it is the best strap I have ever used, by a considerable margin. It's well built, easy to use and extremely comfortable. It takes a few minutes to become familiar with it and set it up in a way that suits you, but once you do, it's amazing.

The main downside to some is the price, but if you're into photography this shouldn't shock you. It does cost a bit for a strap, but you buy this thing once and that's it (how many straps have you heard of breaking?) You're paying for a great design by a small company that has designed what they believe to be the best strap ever, and I agree. I'm glad they made it, as they were almost put out of business by an unfair patent awarded to BlackRapid. This was their last effort to stay afloat and it's a winner.

If you don't have a certain tripod head and quick release connector, you do may need to buy the Luma Membrane Connector, but only if you have tripod setup to use it with, otherwise there's $15 you can save. I have a Manfrotto tripod and QR ballhead, so I need to grab it, I haven't yet as it was in production when I bought the strap.

I'm sounding like a shill at the moment, but that's not the case. I'm just very impressed by the strap and it is perfect for the travelling you're about to do.

 

[AZ Greg]

Hey guys, I'm looking to dabble in photography and see if it's something I end up enjoying enough to get more enthusiastic about. I've been looking at entry level DSLRs and some of the mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses. Biggest thing is that I don't want to break the bank for something I might not get too much out of. So after looking around for the past few days, and reading some reviews, I think this is the route I'm going to go:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035LBRJO/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

The price is right and all of the reviews/sample pictures I've read/seen seem to point to good things. My only concern is perhaps the age with it being a couple of years old. So what say you GAF? Good deal? If you have suggestions I'm open to them. I do want to go new though as opposed to refurbished/used. Thanks!

 

[olbareun]

Anyone excited about the Sigma DP2 Merrill? I am. I can't wait for its price to be known. If it's under 700 dollars, I know I'll consider it.

yesssssssssssssssssss and i already have a dp2s too omg. doubt it will be below 700 though

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Ok it's my 6 monthly Hasselblad lust phase. That medium format...

So, first Hass. 500? 501? Any to steer clear of? Personal experience? Is the 80mm a good general lens?

Damn...

 

[BlueTsunami]

Ok it's my 6 monthly Hasselblad lust phase. That medium format...

So, first Hass. 500? 501? Any to steer clear of? Personal experience? Is the 80mm a good general lens?

Damn...

I believe its the 500CM or 501CM you want to get. Any of the lenses on that system are fantastic, even the 80mm which should equal the Area of View around 50mm? If you're on a budget don't discount the Pentax and Mamiya Medium Format systems.

 

[East Lake]

Here's a good page about them. http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/Hasselblad500.html

Basically don't get the 500C cause it's really old. Blue is right that the 80mm Planar is the standard lens and it's great. Here's my 501C with the 150mm CF T* Sonnar.

I usually get CF T* bargain lenses from KEH. Anything newer or in better condition and they get seriously pricey, but KEH bargain stuff is in generally good condition anyway. I also like this optech super pro strap (version A) for anything handheld. The camera sits flat on your chest with the lens angled toward your feet. It feels very secure and not heavy at all. I have 2 backs too which is nice for a slow speed, high speed combo or color, B&W combo. My favorite camera ever pretty much, but can be pricey.

Well, keep in mind that they're effectively assembled to order, and the components are 99% identical to the M9, so there's very little inventory risk. Hell, they could probably sell as few as 100 of these and still turn a profit.

Yeah I didn't think of that at the time. They've been around this long anyway so I'm sure they'll be fine.

 

[mclaren777]

I'm thinking about buying the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM for my T2i – try to talk me out of it or into it.

And please know that I'm not interested in any of the other 85mm options due to budget constraints.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I'm thinking about buying the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM for my T2i – try to talk me out of it or into it.

And please know that I'm not interested in any of the other 85mm options due to budget constraints.

I'd say it's a great purchase! Very fast focusing, a focal length on APS-C that works ver well for portraiture. The blur qualities are very different than a 50mm lens. Only real issues are the strong purple fringing wide open. Its generally one of canons strongest (if not the strongest) non L offerings.

 

[Danoss]

I'm thinking about buying the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM for my T2i – try to talk me out of it or into it.

And please know that I'm not interested in any of the other 85mm options due to budget constraints.

Not going to talk you out of it. It's probably Canon's best kept secret. A great lens that you will love for portraits, indoor sports and such.

A number of pros prefer it to the 85/1.2L since it has focusing speed issues. For the price, it really can't be beaten. Many people who buy it, after using it they ask themselves "why didn't I buy it sooner?" No need to look elsewhere, if you want it, have a use for it, and can afford it, go for it.

I don't own it as I have the 100/2.8 macro to hold me over. But soon, soon.

 

[QualityPixel]

I'm thinking about buying the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM for my T2i – try to talk me out of it or into it.

And please know that I'm not interested in any of the other 85mm options due to budget constraints.

I had the Nikon equivalent for a year, and I loved that lens, but I found my self hardly using it. I primarily use a Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 lens and a Nikon 50mm f/1.8, and the 85 just didn't fit in well because it was too telephoto to use indoors with the crop factor, and the depth of field was not all that much narrower than what those 2 lenses already gave me. I think I would have been happier with a wide angle zoom.

 

[shantyman]

I love my X100, but I am very intrigued by the OM-D. I really want both but the $$$.

Now I am holding onto my XSi and 50mm 1.4 for purposes that the X100 won't cover, but I'd way rather have the OM-D.

 

[GamePnoy74]

I love my X100, but I am very intrigued by the OM-D. I really want both but the $$$.

Now I am holding onto my XSi and 50mm 1.4 for purposes that the X100 won't cover, but I'd way rather have the OM-D.

My OM-D E-M5 is coming in soon from Amazon, can't wait to give it a try!

 

[jmdajr]

Still shooting in JPEG but I want to start messing with Raw files now that I have an SLR. Any opinions between Lightroom 4 or Nikon Capture NX2? They are both 150ish.

I'm already pretty familiar with Photoshop, but like I said never really messed with RAW processing.

Any opinions welcome.

 

[captive]

Still shooting in JPEG but I want to start messing with Raw files now that I have an SLR. Any opinions between Lightroom 4 or Nikon Capture NX2? They are both 150ish.

I'm already pretty familiar with Photoshop, but like I said never really messed with RAW processing.

Any opinions welcome.

lightroom.

 

[sneaky77]

Still shooting in JPEG but I want to start messing with Raw files now that I have an SLR. Any opinions between Lightroom 4 or Nikon Capture NX2? They are both 150ish.

I'm already pretty familiar with Photoshop, but like I said never really messed with RAW processing.

Any opinions welcome.

I am sure you can download free trials from both and give it a shot, lightroom is pretty awesome way to keep everything organized and since the changes don't overwrite the original you can come back and try different things and export to different files.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

How does lightroom compare to photoshop? Is it worth replacing using photoshop with lightroom or do they work better together?

 

[jmdajr]

How does lightroom compare to photoshop? Is it worth replacing using photoshop with lightroom or do they work better together?

Always wondered the same actually. From what I've seen Lightroom's interface seems better for adjusting pictures (colors and such), but not for say airbrushing/layers and all that jazz. Apparently also great for managing pictures, something Photoshop doesn't really do.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Still shooting in JPEG but I want to start messing with Raw files now that I have an SLR. Any opinions between Lightroom 4 or Nikon Capture NX2? They are both 150ish.

I'm already pretty familiar with Photoshop, but like I said never really messed with RAW processing.

Any opinions welcome.

For your needs, LR is the best. Saying that as a bit time CaptureNX2 lover.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Always wondered the same actually. From what I've seen Lightroom's interface seems better for adjusting pictures (colors and all that), but not for say airbrushing and all that jazz.

yeah, I only really adjust the basics on my photos so I've been debating whether it's worth it to have photoshop as well.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

yeah, I only really adjust the basics on my photos so I've been debating whether it's worth it to have photoshop as well.

Anything Lightroom can do, it does better or more efficiently than Photoshop.

I use Aperture (Apple's Lightroom-like software), and the only photos I send to Photoshop are ones for panoramas. There are cheaper applications than PS for panos, but I already own PS, so I use that.

 

[jmdajr]

I read Adobe sometimes has problems with NEF files. Any truth to this?

 

[Great King Bowser]

I'm thinking about buying the Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM for my T2i – try to talk me out of it or into it.

And please know that I'm not interested in any of the other 85mm options due to budget constraints.

Personally it's my favourite lens and one of my sharpest.