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The Official Headphone Thread 2.5: We're Making WAVs and Catching FLAC
- Thread starter HiResDes
- Start date
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
That audeze thread is fascinating.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
Seriously. HF is the pits sometimes. It didn't use to be this bad. The amount of people willing to defend a company for the most basic of shit at the prices we're talking about, is quite frankly, shocking. Audiofools left and right man
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Really?
It always seemed to be that way.
I enjoy reading about headphone discussions but it always felt to me like system wars with adults that have too much money.
It always seemed to be that way.
I enjoy reading about headphone discussions but it always felt to me like system wars with adults that have too much money.
They're 600 right now, but would still opt for Stax over them for sure.
Treble has same strange quality as Berdynamic DT880 but suffers from underdamping and manufacturing problems that the DT880 doesn't have. Its not really better than the DT880 IMHO except for soundstage and imaging. Beyerdynamic themselves are aware of these issues as one of the key improvements to the new T1 that they state is that they're actually putting damping inside the cups.
The underdamping results in obvious distortion that makes the treble sound harsh and the possibility of channel imbalance is bad. Definitely not up there with the best headphones around unless you're willing to play roulette. Which is sort of the problem with subjective impressions in this case because literally no Beyerdynamic T1 sounds the same. Refer to the two T1s that Tyll measured...one looks OK while the other has ten percent distortion around 1-2khz. Changstar's measurement differences between a handful of T1s strengthen the theory that manufacturing quality is pretty lax with these.
karasu
Member
Solid. Thanks!
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
So after waiting a few days (which you should do anyway if your electronics got damaged by water instead of assuming that it is permanently bricked) my Fiio X3 seemed to have recovered. Yay!
Will still have to see if I have shortened its lifespan, but it seems fine for now.
I think my plan between by Fiio X3 and the xDuoo X2 is to use the X3 primarily due to it being better to use generally, and the X2 if I need more mobility. There really isn't much of a sound difference between either of them.
Will still have to see if I have shortened its lifespan, but it seems fine for now.
I think my plan between by Fiio X3 and the xDuoo X2 is to use the X3 primarily due to it being better to use generally, and the X2 if I need more mobility. There really isn't much of a sound difference between either of them.
Great writeup, thanks a lot!
Looks like i'm going with either Bette 1+1 or E80.
It's a shame that the treble is somewhat lacking on the Fidue 65, otherwise that would probably be my top choice.
Ran my Audioquest Dragonfly and Rockets off my iphone on a flight this morning. Battery on the phone dropped from 90% to 30% in about 2 hours with the screen off. Eek. this is with a bus powered USB hub between the CCK and the Dragonfly.
The Dragonfly makes a hell of an improvement though. iPhone 5 seems to struggle with rockets and needs the volume nearly at max. With the dragonfly, I had it around 1/3 full, and the treble sounded a lot smoother.
I need to find a small USB hub that has a micro usb power connection that I can hook up to my battery pack, or try a USB power splitter cable.
Beginning to think I should just get either the Oppo HA-2 or Sony PHA-1A rather than hack around with USB hubs, or a proper DAP, Fiio X3 second edition or Xduoo X2 or Sony Walkman A20 and be done with it and keep most of my music off my phone.
Heading to Hong Kong, China, Taiwan and then a 4 hour stop over in Tokyo! The last part of this is going to be a case of stuff every Japan-only gadget I can buy into my carry on. It will hurt, but be oh so good. Have the whole weekend clear in HK so Mingo Headphone here I come to get some spin fits or Spiral dots.
Edit: The Rockets are the ONLY headphones I'm bringing on this trip. Didn't even bother with the SP25-I's. Rockets are so damn good once you get the tips and seating just right.
The Dragonfly makes a hell of an improvement though. iPhone 5 seems to struggle with rockets and needs the volume nearly at max. With the dragonfly, I had it around 1/3 full, and the treble sounded a lot smoother.
I need to find a small USB hub that has a micro usb power connection that I can hook up to my battery pack, or try a USB power splitter cable.
Beginning to think I should just get either the Oppo HA-2 or Sony PHA-1A rather than hack around with USB hubs, or a proper DAP, Fiio X3 second edition or Xduoo X2 or Sony Walkman A20 and be done with it and keep most of my music off my phone.
Heading to Hong Kong, China, Taiwan and then a 4 hour stop over in Tokyo! The last part of this is going to be a case of stuff every Japan-only gadget I can buy into my carry on. It will hurt, but be oh so good. Have the whole weekend clear in HK so Mingo Headphone here I come to get some spin fits or Spiral dots.
Edit: The Rockets are the ONLY headphones I'm bringing on this trip. Didn't even bother with the SP25-I's. Rockets are so damn good once you get the tips and seating just right.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Whao really? From what I've tested the rockets weren't hard to drive at all. Certainly not off the Fiio X3 2nd gen (which I'm using to run the much harder to drive ASG 2.5) nor my LG G3, where max volume would be too much for me. I don't find it hard to drive my ASG 2.5 off the LG G3 either.
Yep, I've noticed the rockets need a lot of volume compared to other IEM's and I was listening to some music with xylophones, and the high harmonics were harsh through the iphone with what sounded like some distortion, but were amazing through the Dragonfly.
Rockets: Sensitivity: 105dB@1mW
ASG 2.5: 123dB @1mW
Edit: That's a big difference - the ASG are 41 ohm v Rockets 16 ohm, so you could argue the rockets are easier to drive but require more power to be at the same volume. 3db increase requires double power if I remember rightly.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Oh wow, that is a big difference in the sensitivity.
Weird. I thought the general rule of thumb is higher impedance = smaller sensitivity? I guess I've been conflating them wrongly?
Weird. I thought the general rule of thumb is higher impedance = smaller sensitivity? I guess I've been conflating them wrongly?
Well, 18db difference requires six times the power to get to the same db level between the rockets and the ASG 2.5.
If an amp will clip/max out at 100mW into 16 ohms, it can normally only put ~40mW into 40 ohms, which mean the higher impedance headphone can't get as much power (is harder to drive), but this is more than offset by the massive 18db increase in sensitivity.
NOTE: This next bit may be wrong, my math is a little shaky, but trying to compare a high sensitivity high impedance headphone against a low sensitivity low impedance headphone both being driven by the same amp...
We could say that the rockets at 16 ohm driven at 100mW would be the same volume as the ASG 2.5 at 40 ohm driven at 16mW (my math may be wrong) which suggests that at the same amp output level (40mW at 40 ohm compared to 100mW at 16 ohm), ASG should be over 3db louder even with the higher impedance. Looks like the ASG 2.5 will be able to go louder before reaching the limit of the driving amp.
This is a very basic generalization, and doesn't take into account the change in impedance with frequency.
Edit: Thinking about keeping my rockets in the hard shell case. Does anyone have one? How are they? http://aurisonics.com/product/waterproof-hsc/
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Hmm, I think I kind of get it. It mean that the high impedance low sensitivity headphone won't be able to receive as much wattage as a low impedance high sensitivity headphone, but would require less wattage to reach optimal volume levels?
Well FWIW the X3 seems to run the rockets pretty well from my brief demo.
Also the hard shell case is pretty good. Problem is that it seems too small for the ASG 2.5 and even though it's covered in soft foam top to bottom I was uncomfortable with it pressing on the IEMs when I closed it. Though I solved that problem by removing the top foam piece to give it more space. Should be fine with how small the rockets are though.
To give you an idea on the size with the top foam removed it fits my Fiio X3 like it was made specifically for it. I wouldn't put it in my pocket but it's good to throw in my bag.
Well FWIW the X3 seems to run the rockets pretty well from my brief demo.
Also the hard shell case is pretty good. Problem is that it seems too small for the ASG 2.5 and even though it's covered in soft foam top to bottom I was uncomfortable with it pressing on the IEMs when I closed it. Though I solved that problem by removing the top foam piece to give it more space. Should be fine with how small the rockets are though.
To give you an idea on the size with the top foam removed it fits my Fiio X3 like it was made specifically for it. I wouldn't put it in my pocket but it's good to throw in my bag.
Love my Dragonfly. Sounds so, so fucking good.
Does the T5p suffer from the same manufacturing issues as the T1?
I'll be getting the T5p next month most likely.
The Lamonster
Member
I know this is a stupid question, but should I connect desktop speakers to a headphone amp?
For example, instead of connecting my M-Audio AV40s directly to my PC line out, connect it to a Schiit stack or other dac/amp solution that is connected to my PC.
For example, instead of connecting my M-Audio AV40s directly to my PC line out, connect it to a Schiit stack or other dac/amp solution that is connected to my PC.
Connect it to the schiit if it has preamp outputs.
The Lamonster
Member
It would be RCA>3.5mm>quarter inch from speakers into the headpohone out of the Vali or Magni. Bad idea/good idea?
Would I need a preamp like the Sys or would that purpose just be to save me from switching the cables manually?
All Tesla based Beyerdynamics are terrible in that regard because all of them are underengineered and have garbage QC. The Telsa lineup consist of mostly terrible headphones in general - the Beyerdynamic T1 is their best one and is actually pretty alright if you get one with tamer treble.
If you're deadset on Beyerdynamic for whatever reason, the T1 is the one to get. For reference, this is the T5p:
I don't need to listen to it to know its garbage. Tyll's Innerfidelity measurements are similarly terrible. Refer to my post at the top of the page for good alternatives that will also run hundreds of dollars cheaper.
I wouldn't do it into the headphone out. I thought the schiit had direct RCA outputs?... But maybe it's only on the Uber? If it doesn't have an RCA out then it probably doesn't have preamp capabilities, been a while since I had mine. It's kinda pointless to run it from the headphone out.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
Holy shit at that ringing. Fuuuuuuu. I thought it was funny that Beyer is collabing with Astell & Kern on yet another $1000 IEM. Second I saw it was Tesla based, I just laughed.
I'm pretty much in love with the tonal balance of my pair of T1s coming out of a Woo Audio 2. With some slight tweaks (slightly tamer treble, slightly boosted bass quantity) it would be pretty much perfect and that seems to be what the next gen version has from early reports. I've auditioned the LCD2 and HD800s and found the T1s to be the best all rounder by far. HD800 doesn't have enough bass in general and the LCD2s have too much and poor treble.
Most headphones seem to have inconsistent/different sound signatures - just seems to be an issue with almost all of them judging by Head-fi.
Most headphones seem to have inconsistent/different sound signatures - just seems to be an issue with almost all of them judging by Head-fi.
That last statement is a complete lie. Measure 10 different pairs of high end Sennheiser headphones. Each will have pretty impeccable channel matching and will measure roughly the same by within like plus minus 3dB.
Bad channel matching and inconsistent sound signatures is a mark of a headphone with bad QC. Just because most of the FOTM flaghsip stuff has bad QC doesn't mean that its normal, it just means consumers are willing to tolerate it and manufacturers can get away with it.
Bad channel matching and inconsistent sound signatures is a mark of a headphone with bad QC. Just because most of the FOTM flaghsip stuff has bad QC doesn't mean that its normal, it just means consumers are willing to tolerate it and manufacturers can get away with it.
I haven't been on Head-fi that much recently so I'm probably a bit off. The discrepancies seem to be more likely in the high end headphones and a lot of probably comes down to personal hearing. I guess a lot of the inconsistencies were not never actually proven, just people claiming differences with no evidence. That's the problem with audio - too many variables.There used to be threads upon threads of people arguing about the HD650 veil and many claiming some pairs actually didn't have it.
Wasn't there a thread on Head-fi recently saying the new HD800s sound different as well?
theSlacker
Member
Interesting. I was planing on upgrading my DT880s to a pair of T1s in the near future, but guess I will have to look into something else.
Very little of these things have anything to do with personal hearing lol.
You can argue whether or not the old HD650 is a result of bad QC and product variance. I think the veil is a result of a specific dip in the treble, which people will indeed hear differently, but I don't think it was a sign they were suffering from bad QC. I think they were just voiced that way since just about all of them had this problem but weren't suffering from typical QC problems like bad channel matching.
The loud revolt against the Sennheiser HD6xx was really a product of its time where headphones were generally pretty bright (i.e Sony flagships, AKG, Beyerdyanmic, Grado). People on Head-Fi often correlate big treble emphasis with good detail retrieval so it's not surprising they found them veiled at the time.
If you look at it now, people don't really think they're crazy veiled anymore now the trend towards neutral or warm headphones has occurred. Remember the veil argument was also thrown at the HD600 and not just the HD650 at the time.
The hidden revisions of the HD650 and maybe HD800 (doubtful unless someone has hard proof) represent Sennheiser changing their product but at the end of the day they will still have good channel matching and sound close enough to one another with the same series.
Those things really have nothing to do with bad QC. Product variance yes but it is a result of Sennheiser changing their product over time. All you have to do is isolate impressions based on the serial number.
If you find measurements of a headphone with good QC, you can more or less guess whether or not you will like the headphones in question if you know how to read measurements. Similarly, you can trust impressions from someone with similar listening preferences as you.
If you, for example, hear a big difference in the bass from impressions you trust with known consistant headphones, you can logically isolate the reason for the difference. More often than not it's a result of the seal - this is pretty tricky to get right with a lot of headphones. Which you will know to be or not be the case if you have measurements of your sample.
The problem with headphones with bad QC is that you can't trust what people say, even people with similar preferences to you. This is useful for the manufacturers to sell to the hard subjectivist crowd because they don't need to bother with QC and just wave away complaints with "well that's just your opinion man".
No it isn't a opinion to say that 10% distortion sounds like ass and no it has nothing to do with personal hearing - it just means the product has rubbish QC.
Also a lot of inconsistencies and product differences have been proven. We know them to be true because the measurements confirm it.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Damn, what causes them to have so much inconsistencies? I've been considering the dt1350 at one point.
Ran it off my laptop with the rockets on the long flight. Amazing, absolutely amazing. Never above half volume.
All Tesla based Beyerdynamics are terrible in that regard because all of them are underengineered and have garbage QC. The Telsa lineup consist of mostly terrible headphones in general - the Beyerdynamic T1 is their best one and is actually pretty alright if you get one with tamer treble.
If you're deadset on Beyerdynamic for whatever reason, the T1 is the one to get. For reference, this is the T5p:
I don't need to listen to it to know its garbage. Tyll's Innerfidelity measurements are similarly terrible. Refer to my post at the top of the page for good alternatives that will also run hundreds of dollars cheaper.
Interesting because the majority reviews I've read and watched have spoken of the T5p quite highly.
I'll still give them a test spin but oh well. (Not interested in the DT-880's as I only want closed cans for the foreseeable future).
I must stop expecting that global brand electronics are cheaper in Asia than the USA. Checked out the Sony store in Kowloon (which was probably my first mistake) and everything is more expensive..edit
ha-1a, and walkmans
They were also sold of out 64GB Vita memory cards which was a surprise.
I'm hoping Taiwan will be cheaper than Hong Kong
ha-1a, and walkmansThey were also sold of out 64GB Vita memory cards which was a surprise.
I'm hoping Taiwan will be cheaper than Hong Kong
Chance Hale
Member
Went ahead and bought a pair of X2s for running and feel like an idiot. The foam won't stay in my ear ;-; What do those wing tips do? Rocket science!
Sound isn't blowing me away but I wasn't really expecting them to be able to compare to my HE 560s in any meaningful way, lol. Not sure if I'm wearing them right either given my issues with getting the foam to seal. Going to test them out tonight and hopefully there's no skipping, have never had wireless/bluetooth earbuds before. Just had to finally try a pair given I was tired of ruining earbuds by the way I tuck them in.
Sound isn't blowing me away but I wasn't really expecting them to be able to compare to my HE 560s in any meaningful way, lol. Not sure if I'm wearing them right either given my issues with getting the foam to seal. Going to test them out tonight and hopefully there's no skipping, have never had wireless/bluetooth earbuds before. Just had to finally try a pair given I was tired of ruining earbuds by the way I tuck them in.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Edit:nvm.
Have you pressed down to compress the foam before inserting it into your ear? That's how you get it to conform to the shape of your ear canals. They'll expand to fit your ear.
Have you pressed down to compress the foam before inserting it into your ear? That's how you get it to conform to the shape of your ear canals. They'll expand to fit your ear.
Chance Hale
Member
I think I figured it out, not sure if I'm doing it exactly right but at the very least they are staying in my ears.
Tons of skipping in the room where I have my computer and a million other devices but I guess that's to be expected? Hopefully they fare better when running, all that matters.
Tons of skipping in the room where I have my computer and a million other devices but I guess that's to be expected? Hopefully they fare better when running, all that matters.
Chance Hale
Member
Jaybird X2s, bluetooth earbuds. Marketed towards fitness esqe activities.
Just walking around the house has it skipping at least once a minute which is worrying. We'll see. At the very least they seem to be able to reach relatively high levels of volumes without blowing out. I stopped several notches before the max.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Got some medium spinfits because the small ones are too loose in my ears due to the asg 2.5s not allowing for super deep insertions. I think these seal a bit too well. Holy bone conduction batman. Have to play with the fit a bit.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Mmm, feels like the spinfits do bring the treble forward a tad compared to the stock tips. Slightly more controlled bass too I guess? The sub still hits hard when I listen to, say, run the jewels. Very comfortable, though the stock tips weren't bad either. I think aurisonics has my favorite stock tips.
Also after much listening I can understand why the asg 2.5 are considered stage monitors. The drums are presented wonderfully with the bass being prominent making it very easy to follow the rhythm section, and the vocals are crazy forward and incredibly sweet. It's known for its bass but I'd say that the vocals and mids are the biggest feature. Can totally see how this could be great for stage use.
Also after much listening I can understand why the asg 2.5 are considered stage monitors. The drums are presented wonderfully with the bass being prominent making it very easy to follow the rhythm section, and the vocals are crazy forward and incredibly sweet. It's known for its bass but I'd say that the vocals and mids are the biggest feature. Can totally see how this could be great for stage use.
SneakyStephan
Banned
I need a recommendation for headphones, it's rather specific so I figure I ask it here:
Use: gaming/late night movies
Requirements: regular headphone jack, no usb, no "g4m3r" brands (which I assume you guys hate anyway)
High wearing comfort (no headvice I, had an uncomfortable pair of headphones once and they gave me a headache)
Budget: 50-70 euros ish
Most importantly:
I need them to be built to last.
In my days yada yada but seriously , I remember using the same pair of phillips headphones for like 15 years on family visits, I remember my grandfather having the same pair of panasonic headphones for as long as I remember.
I've been burnt over and over by gaming headsets and one pair of sehneiser headphones , all of which broke anywhere from within 3 weeks (sehnneiser ones, they cost 120 euros...) to a year.
90 percent of the time it's the same problem: the soldering where the cord connects to the headphone earcup detaches.
This is also why my budget is maximum 70 euros, I'm not spending a ton of money on headphones again just to have them break on me.
I treat my stuff gently, but headsets are simply designed to break... minor snags are unavoidable.
TLDR:
need comfy, unbreakable headphones in the budget range of 50-70 euros (no USB)
edit: didn't specify the type: over ear headphones, the ones where the pads rest on your head not your ear.
Use: gaming/late night movies
Requirements: regular headphone jack, no usb, no "g4m3r" brands (which I assume you guys hate anyway)
High wearing comfort (no headvice I, had an uncomfortable pair of headphones once and they gave me a headache)
Budget: 50-70 euros ish
Most importantly:
I need them to be built to last.
In my days yada yada but seriously , I remember using the same pair of phillips headphones for like 15 years on family visits, I remember my grandfather having the same pair of panasonic headphones for as long as I remember.
I've been burnt over and over by gaming headsets and one pair of sehneiser headphones , all of which broke anywhere from within 3 weeks (sehnneiser ones, they cost 120 euros...) to a year.
90 percent of the time it's the same problem: the soldering where the cord connects to the headphone earcup detaches.
This is also why my budget is maximum 70 euros, I'm not spending a ton of money on headphones again just to have them break on me.
I treat my stuff gently, but headsets are simply designed to break... minor snags are unavoidable.
TLDR:
need comfy, unbreakable headphones in the budget range of 50-70 euros (no USB)
edit: didn't specify the type: over ear headphones, the ones where the pads rest on your head not your ear.
Lindy HF-100
Philips SHP9500
Koss Pro DJ100
Audio Technica M30x
Audio Technica TAD500
Samson SR850
AKG 240
You didn't specify open or closed so I included some. The Lindy are my favorite I suggested.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Thank you so much.
I looked at them all and I guess I'll get the samson headphones.
cost half as much as the others, seem rated high in reviews and reviews say they're very comfortable.
I've never had open headphones before so that'll be interesting.
Someone locally selling a used SRM-323 bought from stax USA for $300. Wonder how much of a step up from the SRM-252s I have now.
Damn it never ends! Of course if I bought it I would have two Pro bias amps and only one pair of pro bias headphones and with a 323 in the house a 007 or 009 could be usable...
Damn these voices in my head
Damn it never ends! Of course if I bought it I would have two Pro bias amps and only one pair of pro bias headphones and with a 323 in the house a 007 or 009 could be usable...
Damn these voices in my head
Definitely be wary of the somewhat piercing highs on them. Comfort is decent, pads are somewhat cheap feeling, but you can't ask for more at the price range.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
Don't. I have a friend who builds amps. He told me that he honestly can't tell the difference between a 20X driven by the stock SRM 252 and a fuckin KGSSHV. It's just a total waste of money. Pretty much everything Stax has ridiculous diminishing returns.
For SR009, an amp might not be so important. SR007, on the other hand, is a hungry beast.