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[disastermouse]

Some of the candidates for headphones (that are available at local retailers):
NAD VISO HP50 (~210-250 EUR)
AKG K550 (~150 EUR)
Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7 (~200-250 EUR)

Any comments?

Have you looked at the Oppo PM-3 or HiFiMan HE-400S?

I have the PM-3, but I just got them yesterday. They compare favorably to my HiFiMan HE-500 but they're closed-back and a LOT lighter and easier to drive (I get good volume and sound straight from my iPhone 6+). They sound better with my DAC and amp, of course, but it's not the night and day difference that it makes for my HD650 or HE-800.

I've never actually heard the HE-400S, I've just heard good things about them.

 

[eerik9000]

I have noticed Oppo PM-3, but they are out of my price range I'm afraid. And if I were to go over my initial budget, I'd likely get Shure SRH1540 instead, as they are cheaper and more widely available over here even though it seems to be vice versa in the US. Cheapest local price for PM-3s I found was 529 euros, while SRH1540s go for 479 euros. Actually, I'm starting to get inclined to go over the budget and get those Shures... All the reviews I've seen so far have been very positive, while the cheaper headphones I've looked at all have at least one or two not so stellar reviews, or something that bothers me (mostly the design).

 

[disastermouse]

I have noticed Oppo PM-3, but they are out of my price range I'm afraid. And if I were to go over my initial budget, I'd likely get Shure SRH1540 instead, as they are cheaper and more widely available over here even though it seems to be vice versa in the US. Cheapest local price for PM-3s I found was 529 euros, while SRH1540s go for 479 euros. Actually, I'm starting to get inclined to go over the budget and get those Shures... All the reviews I've seen so far have been very positive, while the cheaper headphones I've looked at all have at least one or two not so stellar reviews, or something that bothers me (mostly the design).

Is the Euro stronger or weaker than the dollar right now? That seems...high. They are only $399 here.

Wow. If you'd have told me six years ago that I would ever say 'only $399' in regards to headphones, I'd have laughed or punched you....but there it is.

 

[HiResDes]

Some of the candidates for headphones (that are available at local retailers):
NAD VISO HP50 (~210-250 EUR)
AKG K550 (~150 EUR)
Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7 (~200-250 EUR)

Any comments?

All of these are good choices I don't know why people are responding like you're picking from bad apples. I'd probably lean towards the Audio Technica just because it seems like the best value for the price and most are turned off by the way the NAD look on their heads. If I were going to suggest checking out anything it'd be the Fostex revision, KEF M500, or the Focal Spirit Profesional.

 

[eerik9000]

Is the Euro stronger or weaker than the dollar right now? That seems...high. They are only $399 here.

Wow. If you'd have told me six years ago that I would ever say 'only $399' in regards to headphones, I'd have laughed or punched you....but there it is.

529 euros (Oppo PM-3) is roughly 575 USD while 479 euros (Shure SRH1540) is 520 USD. Both prices also include 20% VAT. I googled a bit and the prices in other (bigger) European countries such as Germany, Poland, and the UK are roughly the same. Oppo PM-3s are about 10-15% more expensive than Shure SRH1540s over here. I think it comes down Oppo having little to no presence on the European market and retailers importing their stock themselves (from Asia?) with additional costs, whereas Shure seems to have official resellers/distributors in pretty much every European country.

 

[Afro Samurai]

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/fostex-x-massdrop-th-x00

X00 is up fools

Are they worth it if Sales Tax adds $32?

 

[Antiwhippy]

You know, I thought that I might sit on the order for awhile to decide, but then I remembered that massdrop charges immediately once the drop reaches its limit.

I'll wait for the next one. Bad timing plus I don't really need it.

 

[Blitzhex]

Are three year old used lcd3fs worth $1000?
The warranty is off and I'm kinda worried about driver failure.
Edit: apparently completely new drivers were added to it his headphones 2014, with the fazors.

 

[HiResDes]

Are three year old used lcd3fs worth $1000?
The warranty is off and I'm kinda worried about driver failure.
Edit: apparently completely new drivers were added to it his headphones 2014, with the fazors.

No lol

 

[Blitzhex]

No lol

Oh shit, seller was talking like he was doing me a favor with that price.

 

[HiResDes]

Oh shit, seller was talking like he was doing me a favor with that price.

Oh used ones go for $1,500 I just don't think any headphone is worth that much due to diminishing returns.

 

[disastermouse]

Oh used ones go for $1,500 I just don't think any headphone is worth that much due to diminishing returns.

That's not how it works for everyone. If you move up slowly, your ears and brain adjust and you can find more and more pleasure in more and more resolving gear.

 

[Waikis]

Are three year old used lcd3fs worth $1000?
The warranty is off and I'm kinda worried about driver failure.
Edit: apparently completely new drivers were added to it his headphones 2014, with the fazors.

Can you at least try it out first? Last I heard the current run for LCD 3 fazors have serious QC issues.

 

[HiResDes]

That's not how it works for everyone. If you move up slowly, your ears and brain adjust and you can find more and more pleasure in more and more resolving gear.

It doesn't work like that, greater price doesn't ensure higher clarity or detail.

 

[LQX]

Any impressions on the Grace Design x Massdrop m9XX DAC/Amp? It seems to compare well to the Schiit multibit which gets a lot of praise. It seems so convenient but I sort of hate that there is no on off.

How are the mids and vocals? I almost jumped in on the first drop, but the slightly recessed mids kept me away.

To my ears I cant find any faults. I have listened to some orchestra opera where the vocals get extremely high to Jim Croce and man these things are just beautiful. They damn near put me in a trance listening to Dvorak - Song to the Moon.

A few pages back you mentioned you have the LCD-2 but was not sure it was worth the price difference over the 400i, to me these sound so much better than the 400i. The 400i has been my main headphones for about two months and I much prefer them over the HD600 and 650 but almost from the jump the X00 sounded dramatically better to me on all my audio sources. They are worth every penny considering they cost about the same as the 400i, HD600 and 650.

SolarMystic, you will not be disappointed considering you like the 400i which I love. Hell, you now have the LCD-2 so you will not miss the Planar sound if you get rid of the 400i to cover the cost of the X00.

 

[HiResDes]

Aside from the bass what exactly sounds better on the new Fostex in comparison to the 400i

 

[Waikis]

It doesn't work like that, greater price doesn't ensure higher clarity or detail.

But that's not what he's saying at all though? There's no denying that diminishing returns kick in at a certain level.
However, how much you value that extra 10% of detail or improvement is completely subjective.

 

[HiResDes]

But that's not what he's saying at all though? There's no denying that diminishing returns kick in at a certain level.
However, how much you value that extra 10% of detail or improvement is completely subjective.

But spending $1000 doesn't ensure even the ten percent. Compare entry level Stax to many headphone which cost twice as much.

 

[Antiwhippy]

At some point you're also paying for tonality though.

 

[disastermouse]

It doesn't work like that, greater price doesn't ensure higher clarity or detail.

No, not always, and there are a lot of folks who get different mid-fi headphones just because they can be very different, instead of getting TOTLs.

But just because a $3-5k flagship headphone isn't worth it to you doesn't mean that it's not worth it to everyone.

And, I can hear details in my chain with my HE-500 that I can't hear with my HD650 or PM-3. My Bifrost Multibit DAC brings a sound change with the HE-500 that is much harder to detect with the HD650, for example. The difference between lossless and high quality MP3 is also easier to detect. Some headphones present a wider sound stage that people like more for classical music. Some provide sweeter mids. Usually each of these qualities is represented at its highest level by one or another TOTL headphone.

I know HE-500 isn't TOTL, but it's not so far off from the price for HD650, but it provides a very different and more revealing sound.

 

[Blitzhex]

Can you at least try it out first? Last I heard the current run for LCD 3 fazors have serious QC issues.

I've tried the latest LCD2, but no one has the 3s on display here and the seller lives a couple of cities away.
Yeah QC issues and variances are kinda turning me off. Any other $1000-2000 dollar headphone would run forever, but with these the driver might just die randomly within a year.

Also, just saw this, not liking that bass drop on the 3Fs.

The one I'm eyeing is a 2014 as well.

 

[SolarMystic]

Well, my Magni/Modi Uber stack is sold! Now to search for a new dac/amp. Something that would be better than what I had.

I was considering the Grace m9xx, but I'm not sure it would provide much of a boost. Plus, for $80 more, I could get an Audio-gd NFB-10.33, which looks like a pretty big upgrade.

Here's the link

What do you guys think? I'm heavily leaning towards the 10.33, as that would essentially be my end game setup and I'm done buying amps/dacs for a long time.

Any impressions on the Grace Design x Massdrop m9XX DAC/Amp? It seems to compare well to the Schiit multibit which gets a lot of praise. It seems so convenient but I sort of hate that there is no on off.



To my ears I cant find any faults. I have listened to some orchestra opera where the vocals get extremely high to Jim Croce and man these things are just beautiful. They damn near put me in a trance listening to Dvorak - Song to the Moon.

A few pages back you mentioned you have the LCD-2 but was not sure it was worth the price difference over the 400i, to me these sound so much better than the 400i. The 400i has been my main headphones for about two months and I much prefer them over the HD600 and 650 but almost from the jump the X00 sounded dramatically better to me on all my audio sources. They are worth every penny considering they cost about the same as the 400i, HD600 and 650.

SolarMystic, you will not be disappointed considering you like the 400i which I love. Hell, you now have the LCD-2 so you will not miss the Planar sound if you get rid of the 400i to cover the cost of the X00.

I'm actually selling/returning my LCD-2. It was an overall disappointment compared to my 400i, as I much prefer the signature of the later.

By the time I make a decision on the Fostex, I'm sure the drop will have sold out. Same thing as last time! That's okay though, I should probably try and listen to them first.

No, not always, and there are a lot of folks who get different mid-fi headphones just because they can be very different, instead of getting TOTLs.

I do this exact thing. After hearing the LCD-2, my theory was confirmed that even TOTL headphones have the same plus and minus characteristics that make each unique. Plus the $1k LCD-2 did nothing for me in terms of an overall better experience over my 400i. (of course, perhaps getting something like the $1.5k ether or $3k he-k would provide a good improvement, but those are so far out of my reach financially that I will never know)

So I just swing around happily in mid-fi land. Eventually want to add a Grado and AKG to my stable, just because they are so different from my 400i and hd650. (eventually want to try an entry level stax, but importing $500 headphones is a bit daunting.)

 

[Antiwhippy]

My next dac/amp will be the mojo, but my focuses are more on the portable side.

 

[SolarMystic]

My next dac/amp will be the mojo, but my focuses are more on the portable side.

That would be at the top of my list if I need a portable device. However, my only transport needs are lifting my setup from my desktop and carrying it over to the entertainment center a couple times a week. (kind of why I like all in ones or easily stack-able amps/dacs)

 

[Antiwhippy]

Though actually a big reason why I'm choosing the mojo is because it has a toslink connection so I can hook it up with my desktop ps3 setup at home.

If not I might have gone for a geek out v2+, but then again light harmonic seems to be a slowly brewing clusterfuck implosion.

 

[disastermouse]

Well, my Magni/Modi Uber stack is sold! Now to search for a new dac/amp. Something that would be better than what I had.

I was considering the Grace m9xx, but I'm not sure it would provide much of a boost. Plus, for $80 more, I could get an Audio-gd NFB-10.33, which looks like a pretty big upgrade.

Here's the link

What do you guys think? I'm heavily leaning towards the 10.33, as that would essentially be my end game setup and I'm done buying amps/dacs for a long time.




I'm actually selling/returning my LCD-2. It was an overall disappointment compared to my 400i, as I much prefer the signature of the later.

By the time I make a decision on the Fostex, I'm sure the drop will have sold out. Same thing as last time! That's okay though, I should probably try and listen to them first.



I do this exact thing. After hearing the LCD-2, my theory was confirmed that even TOTL headphones have the same plus and minus characteristics that make each unique. Plus the $1k LCD-2 did nothing for me in terms of an overall better experience over my 400i. (of course, perhaps getting something like the $1.5k ether or $3k he-k would provide a good improvement, but those are so far out of my reach financially that I will never know)

So I just swing around happily in mid-fi land. Eventually want to add a Grado and AKG to my stable, just because they are so different from my 400i and hd650. (eventually want to try an entry level stax, but importing $500 headphones is a bit daunting.)

Is the Audi-GD an R2R or a Sigma-Delta DAC? Bifrost Multibit is $600 - it was a huge upgrade for my chain.

 

[disastermouse]

That would be at the top of my list if I need a portable device. However, my only transport needs are lifting my setup from my desktop and carrying it over to the entertainment center a couple times a week. (kind of why I like all in ones or easily stack-able amps/dacs)

Problem with an AIO is that you can't switch stuff out when it becomes obsolete or something better comes along without having to replace both.

 

[SolarMystic]

Is the Audi-GD an R2R or a Sigma-Delta DAC? Bifrost Multibit is $600 - it was a huge upgrade for my chain.

Website is mostly broken english, but I think it uses dual WM8741 chips. Link

 

[Antiwhippy]

Most AIO will let you utilise it as DAC only or AMP only.

 

[Waikis]

Though actually a big reason why I'm choosing the mojo is because it has a toslink connection so I can hook it up with my desktop ps3 setup at home.

If not I might have gone for a geek out v2+, but then again light harmonic seems to be a slowly brewing clusterfuck implosion.

I ended up buying the mojo last month and it has been a faaaaantastic device.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Any impressions?

I'll be ordering them by the end of this week.

 

[HiResDes]

Well, my Magni/Modi Uber stack is sold! Now to search for a new dac/amp. Something that would be better than what I had.

You quoted the other guy but it sounds more like you're agreeing with me. The apparent TOTL and multi thousand dollar headphones all have strengths and weaknesses akin to their midfi brethren. I'll take it even one step further and point out that many headphones that are now considered midfi were the kings of their respective sound signature at time. I'd contest that the difference between your HD650 and HE-500 has more to do a preference in sound signature rather than being a good example of extra dividends equating to greater quality. The HD650 while having a lush midrange and being extremely easy to listen are known for being a bit laid back and less than forthcoming with details in comparison to the HE-500 which are pretty well touted as a detail monster and having a bit more treble extension which can make even a totally V-shaped headphone seem more detailed. Now I've only ever heard one headphone in the greater than $1K category, and I can say that the LCD2 didn't impress me in every regard like I thought they would and I could hear some of the same shortcomings that I had often encountered in the apparent midrange category.
I'm just wary of going for the the multi thousand dollar headphones category when we know most of those headphones have exotic materials and aesthetic bullshit that adds nothing to the sound especially when you see people with years of experience and money still using entry level Stax or modded entry level Fostex. Like I said before I don't think even the small returns are ensured when buying more expensive headphones. I definitely don't think I'll ever be a guy spending thousands of dollars on AMPs and DACs when there are countless studies which point to not only diminishing returns but the absence of them in these exorbitant setups.

 

[SolarMystic]

You quoted the other guy but it sounds more like you're agreeing with me. The apparent TOTL and multi thousand dollar headphones all have strengths and weaknesses akin to their midfi brethren. I'll take it even one step further and point out that many headphones that are now considered midfi were the kings of their respective sound signature at time. I'd contest that the difference between your HD650 and HE-500 has more to do a preference in sound signature rather than being a good example of extra dividends equating to greater quality. The HD650 while having a lush midrange and being extremely easy to listen are known for being a bit laid back and less than forthcoming with details in comparison to the HE-500 which are pretty well touted as a detail monster and having a bit more treble extension which can make even a totally V-shaped headphone more detailed. Now I've only ever heard one headphone in the greater than $1K category, and I can say that the LCD2 didn't impress me in every regard like I thought they would and I could hear some of the same shortcomings that I had often encountered in the apparent midrange category.
I'm just wary of going for the the multi thousand dollar headphones category when we know most of those headphones have exotic materials and aesthetic bullshit that adds nothing to the sound especially when see people with years of experience and money still using entry level Stax or modded entry level Fostex. Like I said before I don't think even the small returns are ensured when being headphones. I definitely don't think I'll ever be a guy spending thousands of dollars on AMPs and DACs when there are countless studies which point to not only diminishing returns but the absence of them in these exorbitant setups.

I do agree with you. I quoted the part that was relevant to me. That is, I'd rather have 3 $500 headphones that are all pretty different than 1 $1500 TOTL. Even that totl will have its own shortcomings and any measurable difference in SQ can go unnoticed by many. I certainly didn't feel like I was moving up to a totally higher tier of headphones with my LCD-2 (which is why they are going to be gone soon)

What do you think of moving up to something like a Lyr2/Bifrost stack or an Audio-gd NFB-10.33?

 

[HiResDes]

I do agree with you. I quoted the part that was relevant to me. That is, I'd rather have 3 $500 headphones that are all pretty different than 1 $1500 TOTL. Even that totl will have its own shortcomings and any measurable difference in SQ can go unnoticed by many. I certainly didn't feel like I was moving up to a totally higher tier of headphones with my LCD-2 (which is why they are going to be gone soon)

What do you think of moving up to something like a Lyr2/Bifrost stack or an Audio-gd NFB-10.33?

Oh yeah I still really like the that range, but I'm talking about stuff like the Orpheus and Hifiman Shangri-La

 

[SolarMystic]

Oh yeah I still really like the that range, but I'm talking about stuff like the Orpheus and Hifiman Shangri-La

Those are ridiculous, though I can't say I wouldn't love to hear them.


I came across someone selling their Audio-gd NFB-10ES for $440. Has about 500 hours on it and is 5 years old. Kind of hesitant on those points, but the price is great (went for $880 new) and is similar to the NFB-10.33 I was thinking of getting that is $650 (after taxes and shipping).

Here's a link to the old product page: Link

 

[HiResDes]

Those are ridiculous, though I can't say I wouldn't love to hear them.


I came across someone selling their Audio-gd NFB-10ES for $440. Has about 500 hours on it and is 5 years old. Kind of hesitant on those points, but the price is great (went for $880 new) and is similar to the NFB-10.33 I was thinking of getting that is $650 (after taxes and shipping).

Here's a link to the old product page: Link

I'd jump on it myself I weren't set on just getting some Stax, income tax time baby!

 

[SolarMystic]

I'd jump on it myself I weren't set on just getting some Stax, income tax time baby!

Let us know how awesome they are! 2170?

I keep going back and forth on a stax 2170 system myself. Importing means I can't return them if I don't like them. I'd buy some right now if we had a reasonable dealer in the US besides Stax USA which is a rip off.

 

[disastermouse]

Oh yeah I still really like the that range, but I'm talking about stuff like the Orpheus and Hifiman Shangri-La

Oh shit...yeah, but no. There's nothing that would justify those prices to me, even if I had money to burn.

 

[disastermouse]

Those are ridiculous, though I can't say I wouldn't love to hear them.


I came across someone selling their Audio-gd NFB-10ES for $440. Has about 500 hours on it and is 5 years old. Kind of hesitant on those points, but the price is great (went for $880 new) and is similar to the NFB-10.33 I was thinking of getting that is $650 (after taxes and shipping).

Here's a link to the old product page: Link

After upgrading to a Schiit Multibit Bifrost, I'm totally sold on the R2R/megacomboburrito filter.

 

[HiResDes]

Let us know how awesome they are! 2170?

I keep going back and forth on a stax 2170 system myself. Importing means I can't return them if I don't like them. I'd buy some right now if we had a reasonable dealer in the US besides Stax USA which is a rip off.

2170 yep.

 

[holygeesus]

I'm a newcomer to this thread but has there been a definitive list posted of songs to test or demo headphones yet?

I kinda like 'Strange Behaviour - Feed Me' to test bass and Baba O'Riley for sound-stage - the remastered version preferably - the way it introduces instruments across the sound stage is pretty useful.

Any other tips?

 

[FoxSpirit]

So, I just found this awesome program, Equalizer APO.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

It's an amazing systemwide audio processor for windows, takes some try and error until you get it fully but it's what I have been looking for for ages. The fully parametric EQ is a godsent. You can also make your own crossfeed and the PeaceGUI gives the option to make hotkeys for easily switching EQ profiles on the fly.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I'm a newcomer to this thread but has there been a definitive list posted of songs to test or demo headphones yet?

I kinda like 'Strange Behaviour - Feed Me' to test bass and Baba O'Riley for sound-stage - the remastered version preferably - the way it introduces instruments across the sound stage is pretty useful.

Any other tips?

J dilla - donuts to test sibilance because that is one of the sibilant recordings I've ever heard, as good as it is.

Mew - Am I wry to test separation.

Grimes - Venus fly for bass impact because if you can't produce satisfying bass with that song you're worthless to me.

Colonel claypool of bucket brains - the big eyeball in the sky and quasimode - last nine days for bass quality and texture.

 

[holygeesus]

J dilla - donuts to test sibilance because that is one of the sibilant recordings I've ever heard, as good as it is.

Mew - Am I wry to test separation.

Grimes - Venus fly for bass impact because if you can't produce satisfying bass with that song you're worthless to me.

Colonel claypool of bucket brains - the big eyeball in the sky and quasimode - last nine days for bass quality and texture.

Nice. Thanks.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Turns that there's a local dealer here for chord stuff where I can go audition the mojo.

Melbourne ain't too bad for audio stuff.

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

I dunno bout Mojo. People keep saying it's X/% of Hugo and I didn't even think the Hugo was all that great. Least Mojo is priced accordingly and is built like a tank. SGS seems to think it's a really great source though, mid centric, and sort of bass lite or something/rolled off. I'm interested in this thing at the moment:

http://www.soekris.dk/dac1101.html

R2R for roughly same price as Mojo.

 

[Antiwhippy]

What's R2R again?

All I know is that the tera player uses R2R and that thing just seems to me like the biggest example of why audiophiles are chumps.

But yeah, I'm keeping my expectation of the mojo in check, but it being able to receive optical pushed me over the edge vs the GOV2+, plus the fact that I expect chord to remain an actual company longer than light harmonics.

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

Oh no, based on all of that, I'd go probably go Mojo too tbh. The build quality is far, far above par. I don't think you'd have to worry about it sounding thin and digital either based on what SGS told me about it as a source. It's supposed to have really rich mids and articulate bass, lacking in air, but has superb depth to make up for it.

R2R ladder DAC vs. delta sigma which is what's commonly used in most DACs these days. I don't know much about them from an electrical/theoretical perspective, but they're supposed to have a warmer/middle of the road tonality. More natural, less etched and cold. I've never actually heard an R2R DAC before, but I've always been curious about them. The GoV2 was probably the first D/S DAC I'd heard where there was this sort of delicacy to the way music was presented. It's subtle, but you can listen longer, and it didn't feel nearly as forceful/etched as what I'm used to, so that got me interested in the R2R stuff.

Before Schiit (and Moffat) got back into the R2R stuff, you'd have to settle for older shit like the Thetas which are kind of all falling apart due to their age and have limited support in terms of outputs, as well as having to deal with escalating prices due to collectors. Again, I wanna reiterate that the differences between this stuff is pretty subtle, and dependent on whether your phones can even pick up those differences, but once you A/B and can identify what's different, it's kinda hard to go back. Definitely diminishing returns here as well as with everything else. I'm fairly certain that a Bimby is probably 90% of a Gumby on most setups if we're not talking tonality.

 

[FoxSpirit]

A better way IMHO is getting a tube amp or preamp. I don't like messing with the source or poweramp.

Especially when in a DAC, I don't know the exact error it introduces. While in a tube I know exactly what I get and can even exchange tubes for different sound characteristics.

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

Eh. Considering that you can get a very, very good source in the GoV2 for about $250, and even the more esoteric Bimby is $470 on the used market (that'll come down too), I'd say that the issue of procuring a decent source these days isn't a problem at any price bracket, as like anything else, there are more, and better options than ever before.