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[siddx]

You are correct. I made this thread after all.

I'm not anti-theist. I actually really respect (some) aspects of religion, and the whole thing fascinates me to be honest.

There are side affects I guess you could call them, of religion that are indeed fascinating. I grew up overseas around countless different gods, beliefs, scriptures etc... and so I never had one distinct religion be prominent in my life, so I never took it seriously. I just sat back and watched all the different beliefs of my friends and peers and the people around me. I found no value in it, just entertainment. In that the temples and histories and stories that grew from those beliefs were fascinating to me as someone who loves history. But even as a kid I found the application of those beliefs to be a waste of time. While my friends were dragged to temple or church or mosque or synagogue every week to learn to be better people. I watched the people themselves and found my guidelines in them and myself. I thought about how their behaviors and my own affected emotions and actions. I started to feel like some of my friends and peers were relying on the forgiveness of god more than the forgiveness of their fellow human beings. It became less about do good because you don't want to hurt other people, and more about do good because you don't want to risk upsetting god.
But the history these religions have left behind, again, is fascinating.

 

[RevDM]

One day someone is going to make a stupid ass thread like this and all the worlds questions about religion will be solved, right here on NeoGAF.


P.S.

Bring back the funny pics thread.

 

[xelv]

Interesting series of videos detailing one man's deconversion from Christianity. I think it'll be interesting for the theists to refute and argue what is said in the video. I haven't seen what many theists think of the series.

Why I am no longer Christian

Yes, those videos are excellent.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm confused...

I don't remember asking you to do anything for me, or for any examples.

How did I change the subject?

The opposite of what?

100% my bad I was responding to RustyNails.

apologies to both of you.

 

[Monocle]

Okay, since I'm here...

- Lawrence Krauss's extraordinary lecture on the birth and fate of the universe. A must see.

- Cosmos, Carl Sagan's celebrated science series, available for free on Hulu.

- Intelligence Squared Debate featuring Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdencombe MP vs. Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry (1 of 5). There are audience opinion polls before and after the discussion that yield some rather interesting results.

- Christopher Hitchens's opening address at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas (1 of 12). Highly recommended.

- QualiaSoup's YouTube channel dedicated to secular humanism and critical thinking. His videos feature very clear arguments and explanations with intuitive visual aids. Entertaining and informative.

- Pat Condell on aggressive Atheism. Those with delicate constitutions need not apply. If this is your cup of tea, however, check out his YouTube channel for much more.

- Richard Dawkins on scientific thinking and moral philosophy, and the arrogant certainty of science.

- TheraminTrees' transition to atheism (1 of 2). I have a feeling a lot of people, religious or otherwise, will find a lot to relate to in this short series.

- Why do people laugh at creationists?

- Sam Harris on modern science vs. religious dogma, and why he criticizes religion.

 

[RustyNails]

Even in a world where God does exist, one who embraces science fully, in a dogmatic way, would never find a way to measure this God, so it doesn't exist for him.

This is something new. So what you're positing is that given a universe where God exists, scientists are doomed to remain ignorant because they cannot measure him? So what should the scientists do in such a universe to identify the existence of God and arrive at the same conclusion as their religious friends?

 

[Stinkles]

This is something new. So what you're positing is that given a universe where God exists, scientists are doomed to remain ignorant because they cannot measure him? So what should the scientists do in such a universe to identify the existence of God and arrive at the same conclusion as their religious friends?

It's a false dichotomy. In that scenario god would be deliberately obfuscating himself. Most religions are built on the principle that he reveals himself.

 

[Crash Station]

At first I read the thread as "The Official Railgun Thread" and was like 0_o

Anyway, I'm not very religious at all. I'm Jewish but I really consider it more of a culture than a belief at this point. I'm more interested in the stories than actually following the religion. Belief wise, I'm agnostic for the most part.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Interesting series of videos detailing one man's deconversion from Christianity. I think it'll be interesting for the theists to refute and argue what is said in the video. I haven't seen what many theists think of the series.

Why I am no longer Christian

Wasn't this posted here recently? I skipped straight to the theology ones, and they were phenomenally awful. He had a bizarre lens going in to reading the Bible (some obscure "God of the gaps"-based theology) and he was Penecostal or something like that. He didn't even understand the Old and New Covenants (4:00 in that 1st video). Also, I remember that he completely skipped books of the Bible because they were "boring," seemed irrelevant, and he thought that they shouldn't be in the book.

He's really representative of American Christianity, unfortunately, but he either isn't smart (not a prerequisite for being Christian, but...) or he had pitifully little biblical knowledge for 20+ years.

Edit: to be clear, I don't dislike his struggle with faith, just that he got to the 1st step in each debate and stopped. "All of these rules seemed contrary to the law that's written on their hearts, as in Romans." Now, why could this be? He doesn't try to address this (for example).

 

[karasu]

I'm amazed that in 2010 people still completely miss the point as to why people thank god. To believe that thanking God means you're overlooking all of the human effort that goes into a success is beyond ignorant. You're just fishing for a reason to castigate someone who believes differently than you do, and it makes you every bit as annoying as the great proselytizers of the world. What's wrong with a little fucking understanding?

 

[BocoDragon]

This is something new. So what you're positing is that given a universe where God exists, scientists are doomed to remain ignorant because they cannot measure him? So what should the scientists do in such a universe to identify the existence of God and arrive at the same conclusion as their religious friends?

That's right, you can't measure him using the scientific method. If someone thinks that the universe is alive, or there's actually some human-like figure up there controlling everything, there's really no experiment to test that. It can't be measured. If you take science as your religion, rather than as a useful model for understanding the world, then that worldview will necessarily never include God.

If a religious person wanted such a science fundamentalist to have a proof for God, you would either have to approve scripture and the tradition of believers as a proof (which I don't think a good scientist would do).... or you could delve into the mystical roots of religion, people who experience God directly, which is what spawned the scriptures which most people now associate with religion. You could go pray or meditate and then maybe you'd feel God or something. This is the only "proof" you will ever get. But of course a proof like that isn't something which would be accepted by science at all.

Science will never have a way to ever see a God if one were there. And that doesn't say whether or not there is or isn't one, but it's definitely not necessarily true that there is no God because science can't find one.

At first I read the thread as "The Official Railgun Thread" and was like 0_o

I like Arnold's portable railgun in Eraser :lol

 

[GillianSeed79]

My point is you can be atheist and not anti-religion. If you are atheist why should you care if a non-atheist believes in God? Yes, a lot of bad shit happens and a lot of people have died in the name of God. Religous people have also done some nice shit for people too. This whole trying to force people to acknowledge god doesn't exist seems as dickish as religous people trying to force others to believe what they believe. I don't care if you believe in Zeus, Zoroaster, Jesus, nothing or your left sock so long as you are a decent human being.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm amazed that in 2010 people still completely miss the point as to why people thank god. To believe that thanking God means you're overlooking all of the human effort that goes into a success is beyond ignorant. You're just fishing for a reason to castigate someone who believes differently than you do, and it makes you every bit as annoying as the great proselytizers of the world. What's wrong with a little fucking understanding?

I understand that athletes SPECIFICALLY thank god for HELPING them do SPECIFIC THINGS. We're not, or at least I'm not talking about the simply habit of saying a kind of instant thanks, we're talking about people invoking the wheeling might of the infinite for helping them do a layup.

Even if it's not retarded, which it is, it's technically blasphemous. It is the VERY DEFINITION OF TAKING THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN.

These are also the same people who treat pride as a personal strength rather than a fairly dangerous sin. So there you go.

 

[Monocle]

I'm amazed that in 2010 people still completely miss the point as to why people thank god. To believe that thanking God means you're overlooking all of the human effort that goes into a success is beyond ignorant. You're just fishing for a reason to castigate someone who believes differently than you do, and it makes you every bit as annoying as the great proselytizers of the world. What's wrong with a little fucking understanding?

It's fascinating to me that you didn't manage to squeeze a single affirmative statement into all that bluster. What I'm interested to know is what thanking god means to you, not the reasons you've invented to dismiss opposing views.

 

[RustyNails]

Science will never have a way to ever see a God if one were there. And that doesn't say whether or not there is or isn't one, but it's definitely not necessarily true that there is no God because science can't find one.

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at

 

[speculawyer]

So what is the official religion?

 

[Monocle]

Science will never have a way to ever see a God if one were there. And that doesn't say whether or not there is or isn't one, but it's definitely not necessarily true that there is no God because science can't find one.

Guess the proponents of intelligent design didn't get the memo.

 

[BocoDragon]

Guess the proponents of intelligent design didn't get the memo.

Good point. I imagine it would be a good proof if God left some sort of artists touch on the way the world is arranged, and scientists could see these unusual patterns. The problem is.. he didn't. (unless you mean "children laughing, a sunny day" or some other unmeasurable things). Intelligent Design is not actually a bad way to argue for God if it were true... but it's wrong so it doesn't work :lol

 

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

I've only skimmed the thread but it seems like no one has commented on that truly awful Josh Schrei article about the link between atheism (and liberalism) and intelligence. Did anyone else read it? Yeesh. "Smart people in the 16th century believed in God, so there!" Nevermind the fact that those people had the misfortune of living in a time that was, among other things, pre-Darwin. By the end of the article, he's actually questioning the entire "modern western concept of intelligence".

It certainly seems to me that intelligent people are disproportionately atheist (or at least agnostic). To be fair though, I don't have proof or anything.

 

[Always-honest]

i respect that people are curious about the unknown.

i just think religion doesn't really answer that curiousity one tiny bit.

 

[Stinkles]

i respect that people are curious about the unknown.

i just think religion doesn't really answer that curiousity one tiny bit.

Well it does. Folks believe the answers their church gives them.

Q: Where do the stars come from?
A: God puts them in the firmament.


Obviously their curiosity isn't being answered with facts, but the whole point of faith is either not caring, or believing 100% that the things you think you know, are true.

 

[Always-honest]

Well it does. Folks believe the answers their church gives them.

Q: Where do the stars come from?
A: God puts them in the firmament.


Obviously their curiosity isn't being answered with facts, but the whole point of faith is either not caring, or believing 100% that the things you think you know, are true.

yeah, forgot to say it doesn't answer MY curiousity. 100% believing in stuff without actually seeing proof is weird imo. But i guess a lot of things we see are open for interpretation.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

I find that some reasons people want to believe in a God is because they want to justify these weird little things humans have come up with, such as morals, justice, right and wrong, good and evil.

 

[Monocle]

I find that some reasons people want to believe in a God is because they want to justify these weird little things humans have come up with, such as morals, justice, right and wrong, good and evil.

Humanistic philosophy does that too, and better. But you do have a point.

 

[AFreak]

sup fellow atheists

Nothing much, Dres.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Humanistic philosophy does that too, and better. But you do have a point.

Not quite familiar with humanistic philosophy, who are some of the key philosophers in that area?

After dipping my fingers into some reading dealing with Zen, evolution, Qi and hermits, I've come to agree with the thinking that nothing is truly seperate, everything is everything, evolution is constantly happening, nothing really matters, time really doesn't matter, the idea of reincarnation is misunderstood (We do go on to become other things, but the ego is not carried along) etc.

 

[BocoDragon]

I find that some reasons people want to believe in a God is because they want to justify these weird little things humans have come up with, such as morals, justice, right and wrong, good and evil.

Humanistic philosophy does that too, and better. But you do have a point.

Philosophy can just as well say that those concepts are "conceptual" rather than "realist" things in the world.... but I don't think one needs to believe in those concepts fundamentally in order to do actions which accord with their meaning. I don't have to believe in Good to do good.

Buddhism, mainly after Zen, would probably describe all those complicated human concepts as mere mental "stories" laid over top of a direct seeing of the world.... If they are useful descriptions, use them, they are good ways to describe qualities of the world, but you needn't believe in them fundamentally... This certainly wouldn't be the version of religion which needs these concepts to exist. On the contrary.


EDIT: ... and then you mentioned zen as I was writing this. Now I understand the source of your thinking.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Ha, yes I've only read some of what Zen has to offer, mostly through thinkers like Alan Watts and such, that with Charles Darwin is enough to blow the shit out of one's mind... I'm also living in a small village in Mexico for the past month (Not there atm, obviously), it's not to far off from towns but it far enough to where one just sees life, death, and the sky in a totally different light.

 

[Crag Dweller]

I might be too tired to make the point I'm trying to make but, what the hey. The main problem that always sticks with me is this. We can all agree that there were gods being worshiped before the one true god(in this case the Christian god) made himself known, correct? Then why did he take the same basic structure as all those false religions before him? i.e. that you can never see god or really know that he exists, instead you have to have faith that he is real. We know why all the false gods before him did that, because they were, well fakes. But why does God present himself the same fashion? If you were the one true god wouldn't you try to stand apart from the way that all the false gods were peddled to the people before him?

 

[BocoDragon]

Ha, yes I've only read some of what Zen has to offer, mostly through thinkers like Alan Watts and such, that with Charles Darwin is enough to blow the shit out of one's mind... I'm also living in a small village in Mexico for the past month (Not there atm, obviously), it's not to far off from towns but it far enough to where one just sees life, death, and the sky in a totally different light.

^ notice how you can read Darwin and still have a mystical experience? I think we've already gotten one step to solving this atheist/religion rift on GAF once and for all.

 

[TurboLibre]

What I'm interested to know is what thanking god means to you, not the reasons you've invented to dismiss opposing views.

It's thanking him for the opportunities and support that got you where you are.

 

[AFreak]

I hate that stuff as well.

The other month I had to suffer through some truly insulting shit. I was invited to a friend's place to chill and shoot the shit by a group of friends. I knew one of them was a hardcore Christian, but I didn't expect this. I was told we were going to watch a football movie and I was cool with that because, hey, I love sports movies.

We ended up watching a Christian "sports" movie which was revolved completely around this subject. They used God to help them win and God made everything alright! There was one scene in particular that stuck out in my mind: the new kicker lacks self confidence in his ability to pull off a good field goal. The assistant coach is like,"WHAT DOES SCIPTURE SAY?" and pulls something out of his ass.

It was horrible.

Here's a clip of that part of the movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y8I9S7wvk4

2:38 - 4:18

Goodness.

Facing the Giants! Hell yeah, what an awe-inspiring movie. I got to watch that at a small junior college I used to go to as an RA. We put it on for the school and DAMNIT DOES IT SUCK! I was making jokes the whole movie, and peeps were giving me the stinkeye.

Did I mention that I was also in a small southern town with only 650 people in it and that the college there has more enrolled than the town does? Nope, well let's just say that I was the only atheist in that whole place. Good times.

Spoiler

We also showed Happy Feet and no one got the Atheist message of the great Pengiun even when i tried to point it out to them

Ok, it may not have been an atheist message, but it certainly asked you to look at things for yourselves and not just believe what the authority preaches.

 

[GT500]

I won't get into religion in general because my opinions are rather extreme in regards to my belief that religion is pure evil.

I will say however that whenever a sports player or actor/musician thanks god for their success I get the urge to stab them in the face. The idea that god has any interest in your stupid fucking game, shitty movie, or boring album is so incredibly egoistical and arrogant. God doesn't give two shits about you, your superbowl, your record sales, or your career.
And on a smaller level, God also doesn't care about your marriage, your new born child, your promotion, your good luck, or anything to do with you in general. How about you thank the people who deserve it, the people that suppprted you, loved you, helped you, trained you, taught you, and made you the person you are today. Stop thanking an entity that you don't even truly understand who cares nothing for you.
When your plane lands safely in a river after an emergency, its not a damn miracle of god, its a remarkable feat performed by a man who you completely dishonor by giving his credit to some make believe concept you have created in the vain attempt to understand something your stupid little mind could never hope to truly conceive.
In other words, shut the fuck up.

There, thats my rant for the week.

Instead of getting the urge to stab them in the face, why don't you try to understand them regardless of what you believe?

I thank God for everything, literally. But why? Let me point out some points:
I believe in God. First, make sure you understand the definition of God, not just the word itself. Make sure you understand each point before reading the next one. And the most important thing of all, the purpose of this isn't to prove you are wrong or anything, so I am not expecting an answer. It is just to tell you why people thank God and to share some views and ideas. The purpose of this thread is to be useful and to understand each others' views, not to fight and counter.

-For believers, God is the creator of the existence the people around us and all, so God is the reason. For example, if you read a piece of information in a book that has a source, would you claim that the source of the information is the writer of the book or the original source? The same goes for a student who passed an exam and thanked God. Wait, the student studied for the exam and all?! God gave us reasons and choices and we have to work to achieve them. Religion isn't just praying 24/7, religions is a lifestyle.

-Were ours deeds predetermined by God? For believers, God knows everything including future events of course. We humans doesn't know what will happen to in the future for sure. Our lives are filled with choices. The choices are available, but in the end, there will be one choice at a point. Our deeds are already written by God and can't be change. So, why would God punish the disobeyers if he wrote our deeds previously? The were written previously because God know what we will choose!. For example, you can either go and take a shower now or not, so you still have the choice.

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Imagine those to be your choices at a point in your life. There are many choices, but you ended up choosing a specific one. That means no matter how many times you change your mind or what you choose, God has absolute knowledge of what you will choose and that's why our deeds are already written.

So, basically: God knows what you will do > God knows what you will get > You got or had something good and thanked God > those people and things around you are just reasons and since they are created by God, God is the reason and the first thanks and praises automatically go to God then to the people and the things around you. Even if the believer didn't say it out loud or think about it, he has the belief that God gave hims the good thing or the success. On the other hand, the disbeliever will only thank the people and the things around him due to the lack of belief/faith.

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Strange are the ways of a believer for there is good in every affair of his and this is not the case with anyone else except in the case of a believer for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God), thus there is a good for him in it, and if he gets into trouble and shows resignation (and endures it patiently), there is a good for him in it.

It depends on your belief whether to thank God or not. But what if something bad happens? Will crying and sadness solve anything? You may be sad, but you have to endure. Don't be depressed all the time because there are good moments and bad moments and either of them won't last.

Well, I can go on and write more, but I feel like I will lose the main point and go further into something else. So, what was that all about? It is about believing in fate and destiny. If you believe in God, fate and destiny, you will thank God at good moments. If you don't believe, you won't but you have to understand why the others believe in this and that. As simple as that.

I am a Muslim and I am tolerant. I can understand why the x person believes in the y thing. I hope this thread becomes useful for us all. Good luck GAF.

 

[Enosh]

http://www.getreligion.org
http://www.therevealer.org

A great conservative take on religion reporting is Get Religion, and The Revealer is there for you liberals.

http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/religion-blogosphere/religion-blogosphere-a2

There are 100 religion reporting sites.

(Missouri Synod Lutheran, here).

wait
why is it automaticly assumed that a conservative would be for religion and a liberal against it?

i'm conservat-ish and an atheist

 

[Monocle]

It's thanking him for the opportunities and support that got you where you are.

missbreedsiddx's point, which karasu's post apparently referred to, prompting my response in turn, was that the opportunities and support people tend to thank god for come not from a divine beneficiary but largely from other humans who can and should be credited. Attributing their help to a deity is insulting and, ironically, ungrateful. I'm tempted to suggest it sometimes betrays a tenuous grasp of the principle of cause and effect.

Expressing gratitude for happenstance in religious terms is something I can understand, yet more often than not ""thank god" isn't used to comment on a happy coincidence but rather as a reflexive superstitious celebration of circumstances that are better addressed in practical terms.

 

[Jenga]

I was at the Smut for Smut table today, 'twas funny :lol

You at UTSA too? I kept passing by it and wondered what the big deal was.

 

[Veidt]

Instead of getting the urge to stab them in the face, why don't you try to understand them regardless of what you believe?

I thank God for everything, literally. But why? Let me point out some points:
I believe in God. First, make sure you understand the definition of God, not just the word itself. Make sure you understand each point before reading the next one. And the most important thing of all, the purpose of this isn't to prove you are wrong or anything, so I am not expecting an answer. It is just to tell you why people thank God and to share some views and ideas. The purpose of this thread is to be useful and to understand each others' views, not to fight and counter.

-For believers, God is the creator of the existence the people around us and all, so God is the reason. For example, if you read a piece of information in a book that has a source, would you claim that the source of the information is the writer of the book or the original source? The same goes for a student who passed an exam and thanked God. Wait, the student studied for the exam and all?! God gave us reasons and choices and we have to work to achieve them. Religion isn't just praying 24/7, religions is a lifestyle.

-Were ours deeds predetermined by God? For believers, God knows everything including future events of course. We humans doesn't know what will happen to in the future for sure. Our lives are filled with choices. The choices are available, but in the end, there will be one choice at a point. Our deeds are already written by God and can't be change. So, why would God punish the disobeyers if he wrote our deeds previously? The were written previously because God know what we will choose!. For example, you can either go and take a shower now or not, so you still have the choice.

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Imagine those to be your choices at a point in your life. There are many choices, but you ended up choosing a specific one. That means no matter how many times you change your mind or what you choose, God has absolute knowledge of what you will choose and that's why our deeds are already written.

So, basically: God knows what you will do > God knows what you will get > You got or had something good and thanked God > those people and things around you are just reasons and since they are created by God, God is the reason and the first thanks and praises automatically go to God then to the people and the things around you. Even if the believer didn't say it out loud or think about it, he has the belief that God gave hims the good thing or the success. On the other hand, the disbeliever will only thank the people and the things around him due to the lack of belief/faith.

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Strange are the ways of a believer for there is good in every affair of his and this is not the case with anyone else except in the case of a believer for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God), thus there is a good for him in it, and if he gets into trouble and shows resignation (and endures it patiently), there is a good for him in it.

It depends on your belief whether to thank God or not. But what if something bad happens? Will crying and sadness solve anything? You may be sad, but you have to endure. Don't be depressed all the time because there are good moments and bad moments and either of them won't last.

Well, I can go on and write more, but I feel like I will lose the main point and go further into something else. So, what was that all about? It is about believing in fate and destiny. If you believe in God, fate and destiny, you will thank God at good moments. If you don't believe, you won't but you have to understand why the others believe in this and that. As simple as that.

I am a Muslim and I am tolerant. I can understand why the x person believes in the y thing. I hope this thread becomes useful for us all. Good luck GAF.

I like you.

 

[Monocle]

Instead of getting the urge to stab them in the face, why don't you try to understand them regardless of what you believe?

I thank God for everything, literally. But why? Let me point out some points:
[snip]

I don't mean to denigrate the admirable effort you put into your post by dodging your overarching point, but is that really true? Do you thank god for everything, literally?

You appear to mean "everything" in the general sense of existence taken as a whole. You said it yourself. In which case I must ask, how can such a deity not seem utterly capricious and sadistic to you? If god predetermined everything, he must have had to predetermine, along with all things fine and lovely, all instances of torture, child abuse, miscarriage, abortion, cancer, and rape. How you then reconcile these supposedly predetermined horrors with your image of a creator that deserves praise is beyond me.

 

[GT500]

I don't mean to denigrate the admirable effort you put into your post by dodging your overarching point, but is that really true? Do you thank god for everything, literally?

You appear to mean "everything" in the general sense of existence taken as a whole. You said it yourself. In which case I must ask, how can such a deity not seem utterly capricious and sadistic to you? If god predetermined everything, he must have had to predetermine, along with all things fine and lovely, all instances of torture, child abuse, miscarriage, abortion, cancer, and rape. How you then reconcile these supposedly predetermined horrors with your image of a creator that deserves praise is beyond me.

For everything good of course. I think the sentence was misleading, sorry. What I really meant is this...

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Strange are the ways of a believer for there is good in every affair of his and this is not the case with anyone else except in the case of a believer for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God), thus there is a good for him in it, and if he gets into trouble and shows resignation (and endures it patiently), there is a good for him in it.

As for the second point, I already told you that people have the choice, you can go to a mountain trip and stand near an edge of a high place and fall, but you wouldn't have fallen if you didn't go there. So? If you went there and fell, God already knows that and knows your choice, which is: you went by the edge's side and it is written like that by God. It is written like that because God knows what you will choose.

You have the choice to kill, rape, abuse or go anything like that. But did God force you do it? No. You have the choice to do it or not, don't you? But Why did God write our deeds? Because God knows what we will choose.

So, what? God wouldn't punish us (or reward us) if we were forced on our deeds. We have the choice and you are fully aware of that. And God wrote your deeds because he knows your specific choices and that's why they are already written.


It is the belief that God has absolute knowledge. God isn't the source of evil or whatever some people say. God created us with the choice and that's why there are people who believe and others who don't. Don't you have the choice to change your belief now, for example? You can, but you don't want to. I am not trying to preach by the way.

And don't worry. I am not trying to prove you are wrong or anything. I just answered the questions and actually, I appreciate your question.

 

[Veidt]

I don't mean to denigrate the admirable effort you put into your post by dodging your overarching point, but is that really true? Do you thank god for everything, literally?

You appear to mean "everything" in the general sense of existence taken as a whole. You said it yourself. In which case I must ask, how can such a deity not seem utterly capricious and sadistic to you? If god predetermined everything, he must have had to predetermine, along with all things fine and lovely, all instances of torture, child abuse, miscarriage, abortion, cancer, and rape. How you then reconcile these supposedly predetermined horrors with your image of a creator that deserves praise is beyond me.

Seeing as he's a Muslim, the concept of God is one that goes beyond good and evil.

Evil and Good are both in essence in existence by the permission of God. Nothing escapes the grasp God.
Bad things happen to each and every single person, some of them worse then others, however, it is understood that the things that afflict people are an exact manifestation of what they can ( as an individual soul) handle. No burden is every placed on a person that he/she cannot handle. So in short, the things a person goes through are a testimony to what they as a human being, can handle. The more painful they are, the more you in fact thank God for that He sees in you, what you cannot see in yourself and has honoured you with a test of this magnitude.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

I've only skimmed the thread but it seems like no one has commented on that truly awful Josh Schrei article about the link between atheism (and liberalism) and intelligence. Did anyone else read it? Yeesh. "Smart people in the 16th century believed in God, so there!" Nevermind the fact that those people had the misfortune of living in a time that was, among other things, pre-Darwin. By the end of the article, he's actually questioning the entire "modern western concept of intelligence".

It certainly seems to me that intelligent people are disproportionately atheist (or at least agnostic). To be fair though, I don't have proof or anything.

That's a poor interpretation of the article.

Firstly, a being religious or believing in god does not presuppose a dismissal of evolution. Many religions do not even have a creation story. Catholics for instance are not young Earth Creationists. They accept Evolution. The big bang theory is attributed to a Roman Catholic priest. Many atheists seem to think that evolution is the ultimate argument against god or religion but nothing could be further from the truth. "Evolution! So there!"

Secondly the article refutes the study on several levels. He attacks the method of the study. He points out that correlation between intelligence and atheism is likely the result of environmental factors and cultural values specific to western civilization, more specifically the United States. He points out, rightly I think, that if you were to do the same study in different parts of our current world that the results would likely skew significantly one way or the other depending on where the study was conducted. He attacks a suppostion made in the conclusion that the study does not back up. He attacks Kanazawa, the author of the study for previous borad generalizations based on IQ. When speaking of past great minds, what he is pointing out is that a modern IQ test is not an absolute definition or measure of intelligence and more importantly that the conclusion of the study was a highly simplistic interpretation of the data.

 

[Monocle]

For everything good of course. I think the sentence was misleading, sorry. What I really meant is this...

That seems a little too convenient.

Seeing as he's a Muslim, the concept of God is one that goes beyond good and evil.

Evil and Good are both in essence in existence by the permission of God. Nothing escapes the grasp God.
Bad things happen to each and every single person, some of them worse then others, however, it is understood that the things that afflict people are an exact manifestation of what they can ( as an individual soul) handle. No burden is every placed on a person that he/she cannot handle. So in short, the things a person goes through are a testimony to what they as a human being, can handle. The more painful they are, the more you in fact thank God for that He sees in you, what you cannot see in yourself and has honoured you with a test of this magnitude.

In perfect honesty, I find this more grotesque than I can express in civilized terms, for reasons I would like to think are obvious.

 

[GhaleonQ]

wait
why is it automaticly assumed that a conservative would be for religion and a liberal against it?

i'm conservat-ish and an atheist

I didn't say that anywhere. Both are "for" the understanding of religion.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

But let me just throw in the theory of special relativity since you asked.

Einstein was not atheist. If you're going to pop in this topic with flat one-liners, at least make them correct.

Topic: I absolutely love discussing this topic with people regardless of their beliefs. Intolerance on both sides of the spectrum cloud good observations, but beyond that, it can be extraordinarily insightful. The world is a beautiful place. And A+ on the OP and some thought-out posts here already.

 

[Karakand]

Pardon my ignorance of Catholicism, but is it true Catholics no longer believe in hell? If so, why did they discard that belief and how did that process even remotely come about?

Come on dude if they gave up on hell they'd have to give up on guilt. :lol

 

[Monocle]

Einstein was not atheist. If you're going to pop in this topic with flat one-liners, at least make them correct.

Topic: I absolutely love discussing this topic with people regardless of their beliefs. Intolerance on both sides of the spectrum cloud good observations, but beyond that, it can be extraordinarily insightful. The world is a beautiful place. And A+ on the OP and some thought-out posts here already.

He was deist at most. Religion didn't shape or inform his theories in any substantial sense. To the best of my knowledge, I hasten to add.

 

[Jenga]

Out of curiosity, would you guys mind explaining to me how you guys personally view heaven? The religious ones of course. If I'm not mistaken (and I most likely am), the christian view of heaven is basically one of purity and constant hymnal singing and whatnot. That sounds piss boring. What are other religions heaven equivalent like?

 

[Monocle]

I know I wasn't called on, so I'm going to resist the urge to volunteer an answer that involves 72 raisins.

 

[Jenga]

I know I wasn't called on, so I'm going to resist the urge to volunteer an answer that involves 72 raisins.

in my personal heaven i would eat nothing but raisin bran

 

[Zaptruder]

Einstein was not atheist. If you're going to pop in this topic with flat one-liners, at least make them correct.

Topic: I absolutely love discussing this topic with people regardless of their beliefs. Intolerance on both sides of the spectrum cloud good observations, but beyond that, it can be extraordinarily insightful. The world is a beautiful place. And A+ on the OP and some thought-out posts here already.

Einstein was functionally an atheist.

... secularist.