missbreedsiddx's point, which karasu's post apparently referred to, prompting my response in turn, was that the opportunities and support people tend to thank god for come not from a divine beneficiary but largely from other humans who can and should be credited. Attributing their help to a deity is insulting and, ironically, ungrateful. I'm tempted to suggest it sometimes betrays a tenuous grasp of the principle of cause and effect.
Expressing gratitude for happenstance in religious terms is something I can understand, yet more often than not ""thank god" isn't used to comment on a happy coincidence but rather as a reflexive superstitious celebration of circumstances that are better addressed in practical terms.
This thread moved very fast. Sorry if I'm repeating what someone else has said.
What acceptance speech have you seen where someone thanks God and then walks off the stage? Every speech I've seen thanks him first (for the reasons I mentioned) and then go on to thank the people who put in the hard work to get where they are. I'd wager these people don't care if God gets first billing. You're also mistaken on their intentions, they're not attributing the work others put in to God, they're thanking him for that person being a part of their life. People have free will, they can chose not to be a part of your success no matter how much God points them towards it. It was also the people who put the work in to reach that point, not God. He just set it up so everybody's talents can come together to get you there.
Being a former "born again" Christian there's one thing that still bugs me. The apostle Paul's conversion.
Is there a logical explanation of how he went from being a devout Jew who persecuited Christians to a devout Christian who ended up spreading the Christian faith all across the Roman empire?
Everyone here knows my little sob story about religion. But I did read an interesting study that said that 58% of mormon women had pre-marital sex. Here's why that's so suprising (outside of being low). But the church teaches that pre-marital sex is second only to murder. That's a lot of people for such a teaching.
Question for muslim gaf:
Personally i only believe in the Quran and nothing after it.At first i called myself Sunni since i was born into a sunni family.Then when i was around 17 i started doing some research into religion and i found some verses in the quran such as 'The quran is complete' I told this to some people at the mosque near my house to seek another point of view and they said that the quran would get too big and also that the prophet said many things and you should follow them.I then researched some more and in another verse god says ' The quran is complete ,for if we wanted to say more we would have written so much that it would make a lake of ink comeplety empty.' and in another verse ' Muhammad is JUST a messenger and nothing more and these words are from god and only follow them and nothing more or after'
I being a 'muslim' mean no offense to anyone else but i just have not found any good reason to follow the hadith and such.I respect he prophet alot and all his relatives but it seems like people dwell into hadith alot.
So whats your point of view on this issue based on the verses i said?
P.S the MAIN reason i ask this is because i have had many discussion where other muslims say things as 'you can't marry a jewish woman or man' or 'anything that is not killed by muslims in a halaal way is forbidden to eat' i ask them where in the quran is this written and they said its not but in the hadith..so =/
Being a former "born again" Christian there's one thing that still bugs me. The apostle Paul's conversion.
Is there a logical explanation of how he went from being a devout Jew who persecuited Christians to a devout Christian who ended up spreading the Christian faith all across the Roman empire?
Yup. Spencer W. Kimball (former prophet) wrote about it in his book "The Miracle of Forgiveness" he wrote that sexual sins were second only to murder.The church in general took up the flag and ran with it. The worst sin is denying the holy spirit and such (of course), the second worst is murder, then the sexual sins of adultery, pre-marital sex, homosexuality..
Lets say, me as an Islamic Apostate, am an absolutely amazing person in my life. I save childrens lives on the Daily, I found the cure to HIV, I don't dring or do drugs and I am faithful to my wife.
On the flip side, there is a drug addict murdering adulturer, who beats his wife and kids, who right before his death repents and converts to Islam and with his dying breath recites a sura.
From an Islamic point of view based on my knowledge and understanding, I would say:
We are created to worship God. In addition to that, we are supposed to be good. If you have never been Muslim in the first place, you are probably better than the Muslim apostate. Because a Muslim apostate knows the truth and was convinced with it, but he denied later didn't keep following it.
The second part has more than one condition. For example, Ramesses II (Pharaoh) said "I believe in Harun's and Moses's God" when he was getting drowned in the Red Sea. But God didn't forgive him because he didn't say it because of faith. Ramesses II claimed that he is God and forced the Egyptians to believe him, but he actually knew that he is wrong because he is just another human who was insisting on disbelieving. On the other hand, if someone converted to Islam because he really believed, then he is supposed to act like a Muslim and shouldn't the bad stuff he used to do. So, if he dies after that, he died with the Islamic belief and his sins were probably already forgiven.
As for the question: who has a better chance? I am not the one who decides and it is not supposed to be something that people can measure. We aren't supposed to say things like "well, that guy has a better chance to go to heaven" or "this guy will go to hell". We aren't supposed to say things like that because we aren't sure about it and because it is God's decision.
Finally! I love these topics. Though it annoys me that people insist they are a waste of time. How can the most important thing in the world (From a theist point of view), or the most useless time waster that affects everyones lives (From an atheist point of view) be a waste of time?
- Intelligence Squared Debate featuring Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdencombe MP vs. Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry (1 of 5). There are audience opinion polls before and after the discussion that yield some rather interesting results.
- QualiaSoup's YouTube channel dedicated to secular humanism and critical thinking. His videos feature very clear arguments and explanations with intuitive visual aids. Entertaining and informative.
I have a lot of atheist friends who laugh at religion and think its for the "weak minded"
I am Catholic and I fully believe in religion because once I had a small problem that couldn't be solved with human interaction. I had faith and believed and prayed and my problem was solved (won't say it because it's personal). I know that's not a full reason to believe but I am thankful and no one else could had fix it expect faith.
I would like to see counter-arguments from both sides.
my tidbit would be science isn't going to disprove god but science is just a translation for us humans to understand how everything works.
The mind can play tricks on people, and i'm sure you've heard this sort of thing before so I won't go any further. However, YOUR personal experience I would say justifies YOU in believing, so I wouldn't have a big problem with that.
Science isn't going to disprove god is a silly thing to say in my mind. It's just a statement with no evidence to back it up. Science doesn't currently know, but who knows what it will find down the road. Science can't disprove The Easter Bunny, Fairies or whatever. But generally people don't assume existence. We assume something doesn't exist until we are presented with evidence to the contrary.
Question for muslim gaf:
Personally i only believe in the Quran and nothing after it.At first i called myself Sunni since i was born into a sunni family.Then when i was around 17 i started doing some research into religion and i found some verses in the quran such as 'The quran is complete' I told this to some people at the mosque near my house to seek another point of view and they said that the quran would get too big and also that the prophet said many things and you should follow them.I then researched some more and in another verse god says ' The quran is complete ,for if we wanted to say more we would have written so much that it would make a lake of ink comeplety empty.' and in another verse ' Muhammad is JUST a messenger and nothing more and these words are from god and only follow them and nothing more or after'
I being a 'muslim' mean no offense to anyone else but i just have not found any good reason to follow the hadith and such.I respect he prophet alot and all his relatives but it seems like people dwell into hadith alot.
So whats your point of view on this issue based on the verses i said?
P.S the MAIN reason i ask this is because i have had many discussion where other muslims say things as 'you can't marry a jewish woman or man' or 'anything that is not killed by muslims in a halaal way is forbidden to eat' i ask them where in the quran is this written and they said its not but in the hadith..so =/
The Ahadith (plural of Hadith) are daily stories from Prophet Muhammad's life and of course don't contradict the Quran. Many of the Ahadith are interpretations of of many things mentioned in the Quran. Muslims should also believe in the Hadith because it is part of the Sunnah.
You can eat what is sacrificed by Christians or Jews if it is sacrificed according to the Islamic way and and you can marry a Christian or Jew woman. It is already mentioned in the Quran here in 5.5. "Those who were given the Scripture" are the Christians and the Jews.
There are things such as drugs, for example, that aren't mentioned in the Quran. However, they are forbidden according to the Fatawa because they are harmful and cover the mind and wine, which is mentioned in the Quran, is forbidden for the same reason.
In response to the unity part. More of a question to everyone here.
Where do we draw the line with tolerance though? Do we accept hateful religions? Homosexuals are going to hell? Creationism taught in schools? This is a question I have to think about a lot. Because the majority of the world is religious and if I'm going to criticize it I need to decide what tone I'm going to take with what beliefs.
For example you'll see people post in threads like this that atheists are being mean. Then you will ask a person what their beliefs are and they will admit to things that I just can't tolerate. Do I put my fangs away? This is one of the reasons why I prefer to talk about evidence and not moral arguments.
The Ahadith (plural of Hadith) are daily stories from Prophet Muhammad's life and of course don't contradict the Quran. Many of the Ahadith are interpretations of of many things mentioned in the Quran. Muslims should also believe in the Hadith because it is part of the Sunnah.
You can eat what is sacrificed by Christians or Jews if it is sacrificed according to the Islamic way and and you can marry a Christian or Jew woman. It is already mentioned in the Quran here in 5.5. "Those who were given the Scripture" are the Christians and the Jews.
There are things such as drugs, for example, that aren't mentioned in the Quran. However, they are forbidden according to the Fatawa because they are harmful and cover the mind and wine, which is mentioned in the Quran, is forbidden for the same reason.
Thats the thing,when it says in the quran to only follow the quran and nothing more and that it is complete,made simple to understand then whats with all the interpretations,sunnah,fatwa etc?I mean who has the right to tell us what to do in islam over god? when god himself says only follow the quran
Thats the thing,when it says in the quran to only follow the quran and nothing more and that it is complete,made simple to understand then whats with all the interpretations,sunnah,fatwa etc?I mean who has the right to tell us what to do in islam over god? when god himself says only follow the quran
Following the Sunnah and Fatawa doesn't contradict the Quran. We follow the Quran and learn religious knowledge from those who know more about the religion. They also follow the Quran and don't say thing that contradict what God said. Are you trying to say that the interpretations contradict the Quran? How would an interpretation of something contradict it?! That's not true. People wouldn't follow the interpretations if that's the case. No one would accept to follow something that contradicts his beliefs. Furthermore, here is a question for you, is your language good enough to understand the Quran instanly without Tafseer (interpretation)? Even if your answer is yes, not all Muslims have that amount of language and religious knowledge.
Strictly speaking, atheism is a lack of belief. By definition it has no dogma or agenda or philosophical baggage. Since atheists tend to identify with ethical philosophies like secular humanism, however, it's a common error to conflate them with unbelief. The distinction is an important one because atheism is often accused of being the driving force behind some of the greatest atrocities historical figures committed against the rest of humanity.
In truth, atheism doesn't cause immorality any more than it guarantees moral behavior. It places you on neutral ground where factors like your personality and upbringing and the beliefs you do hold can guide you toward or away from life affirming values.
Pardon me if I missed it, but you know God did tell Abraham to kill his child Isaac, and Abraham would have if God did not stop him which was the right thing for Abraham to do? That leads me to think that if God did ask/command us to do anything we should trust Him and do it and know that His plan is better for us than our own even if it seems the opposite.
In reality, God (Jehovah, the God of Abraham/Isaac/Israel) wouldn't ever have you actually sacrifice a child though. It was pretty common in the region for the worship of a Molech statue, and it seems He gets the angriest about that more than anything. And when some of the kings of Judah themselves did it He said, "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind." So apparently, He is far from even considering it.
I was brought up as a Baptist - parents are originally from the south. When I was young and its all I knew -- I believed all of it. As I got older, I studied different religions and it started to open my mind a bit. Essentially, most all religious documents are the same -- they are writings that give guidelines on how to live life....they just each have their own sections of weird shit in them.
I guess now (Im 31) I dont know what I consider myself. I guess if someone asked what religion I would affiliate myself with, Id say Christianity, but I dont practice it daily. However when I got married 2 years ago, I did have a Christian preacher do the ceremony. But I mostly associate myself with the religion since its what I was born into, as Im sure many do.
The hopeful side of my brain would like to think there is something more, something greater -- but the logical side of my brain has a hard time believing that. On the other hand, when I look at how everything is so 'perfect'.....how the moon controls the tides, planets rotate around the sun, etc, etc......I have a hard time believing its all just coincidence. And taking my kids to the planetarium only confuses me more -- seeing a tiny dot on a massive ceiling, and that dot represents the Milky Way Galaxy. That just kind of blows my mind, there's just so much we dont/cant understand and never will.
With all of that stated, I absolutely loathe when people say "God had a plan for them". For example, 9/11....the people saying God had a greater plan for all of the people in the building, even if only 10% of those people were religious. Or a mother and young baby getting killed by a drunk driver and someone says "Im okay with it because God had a plan". Fuck that.
Anyways....Im rambling, supposed to be doing a software release at work but am typing on here.
Strictly speaking, atheism is a lack of belief. By definition it has no dogma or agenda or philosophical baggage. Since atheists tend to identify with ethical philosophies like secular humanism, however, it's a common error to conflate them with unbelief. The distinction is an important one because atheism is often accused of being the driving force behind some of the greatest atrocities historical figures committed against the rest of humanity.
In truth, atheism doesn't cause immorality any more than it guarantees moral behavior. It places you on neutral ground where factors like your personality and upbringing and the beliefs you do hold can guide you toward or away from life affirming values.
What do you think of this excerpt from one of Timothy Keller's books? It was talking about keeping religion completely private, but I think it relates.
... what religion is. Some say it is a form of belief in God. But that would not fit Zen Buddhism, which does not really believe in God at all. Some say it is belief in the supernatural. But that does not fit Hinduism, which does not believe in a supernatural realm beyond the material world, but only a spiritual reality within the empirical. What is religion then? It is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things that human beings should spend their time doing. For example, some think that this material world is all there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you. Notice that though this is not an explicit, organized" religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things.
Some call this a "worldview" while others call it a "narrative identity. In either case it is a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things. It is an implicit religion. Broadly understood, faith in some view of the world and human nature informs everyones life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not. All who say "You ought to do this or "You shouldnt do that" reason out of such an implicit moral and religious position. Pragmatists say that we should leave our deeper worldviews behind and find consensus about "what works"but our view of what works is determine by (to use a Wendell Berry title) what we think people are for. Any picture of happy human life that works is necessarily informed by deep-seated beliefs about the purpose of human life.21 Even the most secular pragmatists come to the table with deep commitments and narrative accounts of what it means to be human.
I wonder if you realize how much the second half of your post confirms the excerpt you apparently disagree with.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think atheism is a religion any more than theism is, but it definitely seems like you have some fundamental ethical principles that go far beyond what logic or pragmatism or hedonism would lead you to.
In response to the unity part. More of a question to everyone here.
Where do we draw the line with tolerance though? Do we accept hateful religions? Homosexuals are going to hell? Creationism taught in schools? This is a question I have to think about a lot. Because the majority of the world is religious and if I'm going to criticize it I need to decide what tone I'm going to take with what beliefs.
For example you'll see people post in threads like this that atheists are being mean. Then you will ask a person what their beliefs are and they will admit to things that I just can't tolerate. Do I put my fangs away? This is one of the reasons why I prefer to talk about evidence and not moral arguments.
My way of dealing with this is to be civil in discussion, regardless of how distasteful I find the views of others. That's not to say that emotions have no place in debate, but there are passionate arguments and there are vitriolic rants. By the same token, there are respectful disagreements and there are deliberately disrespectful jabs. The latter actions serve no purpose other than to blow off steam. I don't need people who already agree with me to validate my position; I need people who disagree with me to understand it. That's the only way I have a hope of changing their minds.
With regard to the atheist thing - it's not a religion, but it is a philosophical position specifically concerned with religion. It's hard to think of a concise title for a "what's your philosophical position with regard to metaphysics/religious belief/the supernatural?" thread. This is a thread focused on the discussion of religion; so there's a place for theists who subscribe to no religion, as well as agnostics, atheists, and other interested parties. The OP uses a limited selection of recognisable symbols in the same way that an "International Thread to Discuss Different Countries" might only have five flags in its banner. The text makes the purpose of the thread and who is invited to post in it abundantly clear.
I wonder if you realize how much the second half of your post confirms the excerpt you apparently disagree with.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think atheism is a religion any more than theism is, but it definitely seems like you have some fundamental ethical principles that go far beyond what logic or pragmatism or hedonism would lead you to.
Being a former "born again" Christian there's one thing that still bugs me. The apostle Paul's conversion.
Is there a logical explanation of how he went from being a devout Jew who persecuited Christians to a devout Christian who ended up spreading the Christian faith all across the Roman empire?
All over the world people of different religions claim to have authentic experiences that 'prove' to them their religion is correct. Unless you accept all these religions are correct some if not all of these people are either misinterpreting the event or lying about it.
So yes, there are plenty of logical theories.
1) He had an authentic religious experience (ie. God actually contacted him directly).
2) He had a non-religious experience that he interpreted as a religious experience (temporary blindness caused by an illness that he felt would be permanent but was amazed when it fixed itself, accompanied by perhaps a fever dream of imagry he later attributed to a divine source, etc). This experience convinced him christianty was correct and he converted.
3) He decided to exploit christianity (undoubtedly the fastest growing savior cult, of which there were several, within the empire) instead of trying to stamp it out, which he might have felt was a hopeless cause at the time, and in order to gain influence gave himself a dramatic conversion story. Think about guys like David Koresh or Jim Jones who for all intents and purposes create personality cults around themselves to gain power over people.
4) Or a slighly less malicious version... he was converted in a normal manner by christians, then created an elaborate conversion story (or modified a story that actually happened) in order to use it to witness to other people. There's plenty of ex-christians today who admit to lying while they were christians to try and convert and save people in this exact manner.
These are both true in the general sense, but there are plenty of circumstances under which being dickish or unkind would be of tangible benefit to me, and at least some small subset of those circumstances would never be observed by anyone (and so you wouldn't be "spreading the message of dickishness"). Is dickish behavior ok in these circumstances?
Nope! I wouldn't like you being mean, so the hedonist in me forbids it. Gotta keep my good feelings intact.
Ionas said:
These are both true in the general sense, but there are plenty of circumstances under which being dickish or unkind would be of tangible benefit to me, and at least some small subset of those circumstances would never be observed by anyone (and so you wouldn't be "spreading the message of dickishness"). Is dickish behavior ok in these circumstances?
Let me just say off the bat that I will not presume so much to be a moral authority. I don't base my behavior on logic or hedonism, and certainly not pragmaticism. My strange moral code has screwed me over more than once. In a nutshell, I simply do what I would want somebody else in my situation would do.
Even if I were able to be a dick without anyone knowing, I still wouldn't want to, because someone would have to feel the effects of it.
All this is beside the point. My atheism does not affect my moral choices. Nobody is telling me how to behave or think. I know it's a tired argument, but I'm only a little more atheist than the average Christian. I believe in one less god.
To turn it around, is your lack of belief in Thor a religion? Of Zeus?
Of course not.
So why is lack of belief in any god a religion?
I think Aske put it best, with the "what's your philosophical position with regard to metaphysics/religious belief/the supernatural?" phrasing being more accurate.
I'll say it again, atheism is in no way a religion.
I was raised Jehovah Witness. I will not say I'm going to field any questions, but rather just wondering if there are more of like me out there?
I find it amusing the amount of ex-Jehovah Witness' I end up working/friending at various points in my life, and having that weird common bond that no one will ever understand is kind of cool.
Note: I am not anti-JW, I am currently agnostic and not only don't know if there is or isn't a god, I tend to not really care (too busy attempting to enjoy this live I know for sure I have). However, I completely contradict myself when jumping into a thread like this (and nearly always lurking in most religious threads on GAF, as well as IRL, love discussing religion for some reason).
I think what grabs me the most is what people claim to believe versus how they live their life. Which I know, we are all imperfect or something, but you would think if you were a true believer in God and at his service and he is always knowing always watching, I don't know, you just wouldn't do "bad" things that much. <--- (Slightly an Adam Carolla rant that always rang a little true, but there is no real way to know for sure what a person REALLY believes versus what they claim to)
I've always had a fascination with Catholicism; the traditions, the architecture, the dogmas, etc. I mean, of course, setting aside the horrid politics and army of child rapists. But that's one of the best things about the religion in TES: Oblivion; how similar it seems to Catholic spirituality and tradition.
I come from a protestant family, Pentecostal Christians to be exact. On one side of my family we have some OG holiness Appalachian Pentecostals from the mountains in Tennessee. There's an interesting culture to their traditions as well; very superstitious. Even though I'm an atheist now, there will always be the occasional pang of fascination in my heart for that world. I know it means a lot to the people I love.
Anyways, just wanted to throw that in here. Religion will always be important to me because it is a part of where I come from.
Whats with the Buddha teaching that all suffering is caused by desire? If someone is in a lot of physical pain then they are suffering.This suffering isn't caused by desire, its caused by physical pain.
Whats with the Buddha teaching that all suffering is caused by desire? If someone is in a lot of physical pain then they are suffering.This suffering isn't caused by desire, its caused by physical pain.
Question for atheist GAF:
Assuming there is only two places in the after life, heaven and hell. If God wants to throw you in hell in the afterlife, would you except it? What would be your excuse if you want to go to heaven? What would be your reaction, or you would prefer to leave it until then and not think about it right now?
I know that atheists don't believe in those things in the first place and that's why I wrote "assuming". But if there is, what does atheist GAFfers think? This question is no joke and isn't to meant provoke you guys, it is just a question that have always been puzzling me.
What about agnostics? As far as I know, they always say things like "I don't care if there is afterlife or no. If there is, it would be great or maybe boring".
Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question and as I said, I didn't ask it to offend you. I asked out out of curiosity. So feel free to answer it the way you like.
Hmm, well I'm really more of an Atheist in that I don't believe there is an such greater cosmic being that created us, but I have no proof proving that there isn't so I just call myself agnostic. Now for your question: I don't really now what I'd do if there was actually some greater cosmic being ruling over everything and he then wanted to throw me into hell. I mean hell doesn't sound very pleasant does it? But if he did wouldn't that affect the eternal happiness of my loved ones who got into heaven? Actually I think I'd just have a whole bunch of questions to ask the dude and as long as it gave me satisfactory answers I would just not care. What's done is done and all that.
I was taught that Constantine converted for political expediency.
There is no firm evidence that Constantine was ever a Christian. He claimed to convert after seeing a vision, in 312 when he was fighting for the right to be the sole emperor of Rome. This 'conversion' ensured the loyalty of the increasing number of Christians in his army and contributed to his victory over his rival.
Whether or not Constantine's conversion was genuine, he owed a debt of gratitude and took an active interest in Church affairs. In 325, he called the important Christian Council of Nicaea, which he personally chaired.
Some claim that Constantine finally accepted Christianity on his death bed.
There were many contributing factors to my deconversion but I'll touch on the main points:
At the age of 5 I was enrolled at a private Protestant Christian school. I went to the same school all the way from K5 to my senior year of high school. I will divide the story up by the different grade levels.
Kindergarten: One day my kindergarten teacher taught us about Jesus, how he loved us, how he died for our sins, and that if we wanted to be saved from our sins we would have to ask Jesus into our hearts and repent from our sins. The teacher made no mention of hell. Later that day I told my parents that I wanted to be saved, they of course were delighted, so me and my dad said a prayer and I became a Christian. It was only until later, during one of our chapel meetings, that we learned about hell and how people who weren't Christians went there... Thus my fear of hell was born.
Elementary School: As the years went by I learned more about the bible and Jesus/God at my school and at my church. I was perplexed as to why god would send people to hell just because they didn't believe in Jesus. It seemed really odd to me that no matter how good or bad you were you would go straight to hell just for not accepting Jesus as your savior. It was also around this time that I learned that Santa Clause wasn't real. Upon receiving this revelation that the big fat man that gave me presents every year was a fake I began to think, "Well if Santa is not real... does that mean God is not real? Is God just another trick that parents use to keep their children in line? But if that's true why are all the adults so enthralled by God? Maybe God is the real deal? I mean, I do seem to feel his presence whenever I am alone, so I guess he is real." I kept these thoughts in the back of my mind until I got to middle school.
Middle School: It was during this time that I learned a bunch about History, Science, Literature, and Religion. Science fascinated me the most, to be exact, Biology and Astronomy. Even though my school was a Christian school they did teach us about evolution but they put their spin on it. "It's only a theory. There's no evidence that macro evolution happens. The flood is what wiped out all the dinosaurs. The earth is about 6000 to 10,000 years old according to the Bible. The dating methods used by scientists are unreliable." Now the reason why I bolded those last two statements is because before we had learned about evolution our science teachers had taught us about the speed of light and how light from distant stars and galaxies took a long time to reach our planet... hmmm... so when I got home that day I grabbed one of my science books and decided to see how far away the Andromeda Galaxy was... 2,500,000 light-years!!!
The next day I asked my science teacher about this and he replies, "God created everything with the appearance of old age. Adam and Eve were adults when they were created, so it makes sense that God made everything else look older." Now looking back at my science teacher's
Who the fuck gave this man a science teaching degree?!
answer, I see how unbelievably stupid it was... but I was still a kid and who was I to question a teacher, let alone God?
High School: By this point I still considered myself a Christian but I didn't believe the Bible to be 100% true in a literal sense. During my freshman year I was required to take a class on Christian apologetics... this is were things started to come apart. One day in class we watched a video of Richard Dawkins debating a Christian apologist (I forget the guys name). The thing that struck me hard was when Dawkins said, "If you were born and raised in Afghanistan you would be a Muslim, If you were born and raised in India you would be a Hindu.." and so on. As the debate went on I began to see how the Christian apologist started to shift from the existence of the Christian god to just a plain Theistic view of god then finally to the Deistic view of god... after my freshman year I considered myself to be a "Christian Deist", basically believing that after Christ rose from the dead and revealed himself to Paul that God didn't intervene in human affairs any more.
Fast forwarding to my senior year of high school/graduation:
Senior year was my worst year.
-My hair was thinning
-I was always stressed and always tired from all the school work/tests/quizzes that were constantly piled on me
-My best friend almost committed suicide by overdosing on anti-depressants
-I ended up becoming enemies with a lot of my other friends.
-I realized that my parents didn't have enough money to send me to the college I wanted to go to because they spent all their fucking money on my Christian education. So my parents being fundies decided that Bob Jones University was the best choice for my college education. http://www.bju.edu/
-My cat died
it was ripped apart by wild dogs
-and I was rejected twice by a girl that I thought I had a chance with. Haha, nope.
By the time I graduated my Christian faith was gone. I began to see the massive lack of evidence for my beliefs.
Thus over the course of the summer and through my freshman year of college I gradually went from being a Deist, to an Agnostic, to were I am now. Atheist.
So yep, I'm a closet atheist at Bob Jones University and I live at home with my fundie Christian parents... yaaaaay
PS:
I'm actually happier as an Atheist then I ever was when I was a Christian.
Hmm, well I'm really more of an Atheist in that I don't believe there is an such greater cosmic being that created us, but I have no proof proving that there isn't so I just call myself agnostic. Now for your question: I don't really now what I'd do if there was actually some greater cosmic being ruling over everything and he then wanted to throw me into hell. I mean hell doesn't sound very pleasant does it? But if he did wouldn't that affect the eternal happiness of my loved ones who got into heaven? Actually I think I'd just have a whole bunch of questions to ask the dude and as long as it gave me satisfactory answers I would just not care. What's done is done and all that.
In GT500's religion's (Islamic) concept of heaven and hell, if one member of the family is going to Heaven, a case can be made for the other member of the family who is going to Hell. Its God's discretion. So I don't think that bolded part crossed his mind.
In GT500's religion's (Islamic) concept of heaven and hell, if one member of the family is going to Heaven, a case can be made for the other member of the family who is going to Hell. Its God's discretion. So I don't think that bolded part crossed his mind.
That's really interesting, I had never heard about that before. I guess in that case I'll just ask to be with my loved ones, if I get denied...oh well I suppose.
I would actually really appreciate some advice from Atheist/Agnostic Gaf. See I was raised by a very religious mother and very apathetic father, the latter of which who knows about my lack of belief and doesn't really care(lol). It's my mother and sisters who are the problem here. I want to tell them, but it's so damn hard.
And I'm not sure if it would even be worth it. I mean my mother is a very open minded person, she believes the Bible is more a set guidelines than law filled with stories that have good messages but shouldn't be taken seriously. And she very pro science on pretty much anything. She also doesn't judge people outside of the family on their beliefs or sexual orientation, HOWEVER inside the family is different.
I remember her having a conversation with one of my Uncles one random day and somehow the subject of Atheism came up and she said(translated from spanish), "I don't really care what other people believe, but if anyone in the family is an Atheist I would probably stop talking to them immediately." What say you guys? Should I just stop lying and pretending to be religious to them and just come right out and say it? Or should I just suck it up and prevent potential family drama?
Also I've gotta say, my older sister can be pretty damn annoying sometimes about forcing me to go to church.
All over the world people of different religions claim to have authentic experiences that 'prove' to them their religion is correct. Unless you accept all these religions are correct some if not all of these people are either misinterpreting the event or lying about it.
So yes, there are plenty of logical theories.
1) He had an authentic religious experience (ie. God actually contacted him directly).
2) He had a non-religious experience that he interpreted as a religious experience (temporary blindness caused by an illness that he felt would be permanent but was amazed when it fixed itself, accompanied by perhaps a fever dream of imagry he later attributed to a divine source, etc). This experience convinced him christianty was correct and he converted.
3) He decided to exploit christianity (undoubtedly the fastest growing savior cult, of which there were several, within the empire) instead of trying to stamp it out, which he might have felt was a hopeless cause at the time, and in order to gain influence gave himself a dramatic conversion story. Think about guys like David Koresh or Jim Jones who for all intents and purposes create personality cults around themselves to gain power over people.
4) Or a slighly less malicious version... he was converted in a normal manner by christians, then created an elaborate conversion story (or modified a story that actually happened) in order to use it to witness to other people. There's plenty of ex-christians today who admit to lying while they were christians to try and convert and save people in this exact manner.
That's really interesting, I had never heard about that before. I guess in that case I'll just ask to be with my loved ones, if I get denied...oh well I suppose.
I would actually really appreciate some advice from Atheist/Agnostic Gaf. See I was raised by a very religious mother and very apathetic father, the latter of which who knows about my lack of belief and doesn't really care(lol). It's my mother and sisters who are the problem here. I want to tell them, but it's so damn hard.
And I'm not sure if it would even be worth it. I mean my mother is a very open minded person, she believes the Bible is more a set guidelines than law filled with stories that have good messages but shouldn't be taken seriously. And she very pro science on pretty much anything. She also doesn't judge people outside of the family on their beliefs or sexual orientation, HOWEVER inside the family is different.
I remember her having a conversation with one of my Uncles one random day and somehow the subject of Atheism came up and she said(translated from spanish), "I don't really care what other people believe, but if anyone in the family is an Atheist I would probably stop talking to them immediately." What say you guys? Should I just stop lying and pretending to be religious to them and just come right out and say it? Or should I just suck it up and prevent potential family drama?
Also I've gotta say, my older sister can be pretty damn annoying sometimes about forcing me to go to church.
Well, I've always found it helpful to remind Christians of John 13:34.
Your family will still love you if they are sincere in their faith.
Granted, this will probably mean that you'll be hounded to convert back...
I don't know. I haven't actually had any problems from my family, but religious we are not. I can't really speak to your situation, but I hope it works out for the best.
I was raised Jehovah Witness. I will not say I'm going to field any questions, but rather just wondering if there are more of like me out there?
I find it amusing the amount of ex-Jehovah Witness' I end up working/friending at various points in my life, and having that weird common bond that no one will ever understand is kind of cool.
Note: I am not anti-JW, I am currently agnostic and not only don't know if there is or isn't a god, I tend to not really care (too busy attempting to enjoy this live I know for sure I have). However, I completely contradict myself when jumping into a thread like this (and nearly always lurking in most religious threads on GAF, as well as IRL, love discussing religion for some reason).
I think what grabs me the most is what people claim to believe versus how they live their life. Which I know, we are all imperfect or something, but you would think if you were a true believer in God and at his service and he is always knowing always watching, I don't know, you just wouldn't do "bad" things that much. <--- (Slightly an Adam Carolla rant that always rang a little true, but there is no real way to know for sure what a person REALLY believes versus what they claim to)
The proud son of a disfellowshipped Jehovah's witness here. May Dad was raised chin deep in it, but stumbled on to the wonders of sex & partying in his late teens/early 20s. After many fruitless attempts by Elders & family to keep him off the worldy path he eventually was shown the door-- And they almost had me. It was however their extreme and zealous approach to theism which is what ultimately helped me see past fallacy when I became old enough to fully think for myself.
My mother, btw, was raised Methodist. For my parents' part they raised me in a mostly neutral religious environment. A belief in God was promoted and encouraged, but rarely practiced in terms of going to Church or The Kingdom Hall. Heh, extended family did enough of that. Sundays in our house were reserved for rest & relaxation with the family and to recuperate from and prepare for the rigors of a long work week. That, coupled with the obvious conflict of interest(being kicked out of the JV's didn't purge the issues with the Church my father was raised to harbor), worship just wasn't part of our weekly routine.
But I was still raised, in part, a Jehovah's witness. My Grandmother(dad's mother) is one of the most amazing women I've ever known but Jehovah was her life, clear and simple. And from her perspective being that she loved her children and grandchildren so, knowledge of the "truth" was the greatest gift she could provide. And boy did she bring it(with the help of a couple of aunts and uncles). There's no way to tell the amount of time I spent over her house during summer months and various weekends pining over The New World Translation of the Bible, Watchtowers, Awake, the daily scriptures, that Yellow book with the cool pictures (when I was younger) etc.. etc. This isn't even counting telephone conversations--the woman would even give me "homework" sometimes. And I really started to buy into it for a while. My mother brought me up celebrating all of the key Christian holidays. One year, around Christmas I expressed to her a desire not to put up a tree or to celebrate Christmas on Christmas, as Christmas. This went on for weeks until the time came and per tradition, the Christmas tree and the like adorned our house. I flipped the fuck out--horrified. I was convinced that celebrating Christmas would lead to our destruction as Judgment Day was imminent. :lol I can laugh about it now, but it was sort of fucked up. Neither my Grandmother or my aunt with whom she lived meant to do any harm, they truly believed they were doing what's best for me.
And I guess in a way they did. Incidents like that along with being exposed to conflicting ideologies eventually made it quite easy to realize just how flawed, petty, pointless, contradictory and nonsensical it all was. I can say with confidence that it put me on the path to becoming the Atheist I am today.
edt: post 316.. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU :lol :lol :lol
With freedom of choice I don't think he knows what will actually happen in your life. He may know the possibility of each decision, but what actually plays out is up to you.
With freedom of choice I don't think he knows what will actually happen in your life. He may know the possibility of each decision, but what actually plays out is up to you.
But he'd know still know which choice you make for every decision, and if you don't believe there is such a thing as a free will then that's a pretty moot point.
It's more likely he'd just limit his own power of being omniscient, so he's not really all seeing.
I was taught that Constantine converted for political expediency.
There is no firm evidence that Constantine was ever a Christian. He claimed to convert after seeing a vision, in 312 when he was fighting for the right to be the sole emperor of Rome. This 'conversion' ensured the loyalty of the increasing number of Christians in his army and contributed to his victory over his rival.
Whether or not Constantine's conversion was genuine, he owed a debt of gratitude and took an active interest in Church affairs. In 325, he called the important Christian Council of Nicaea, which he personally chaired.
Some claim that Constantine finally accepted Christianity on his death bed.
At all costs, the Christian must convince the heathen and the atheist that God exists, in order to save his soul. At all costs, the atheist must convince the Christian that the belief in God is but a childish and primitive superstition, doing enormous harm to the cause of true social progress. And so they battle and storm and bang away at each other. Meanwhile, the Taoist Sage sits quietly by the stream, perhaps with a book of poems, a cup of wine, and some painting materials, enjoying the Tao to his heart's content, without ever worrying or not whether the Tao exists. The Sage has no need to affirm the Tao, he is far too busy enjoying it!
I'm not entirely sure what your main question is, but I'm going to assume its fate/determinism. If you think about it, your life is nothing more than a giant series of choices. When you took choice A, there was also a choice B. But you don't know what the outcome of choice B (and successive choices) was. Depending on what choice you make at every step determines your final outcome. So for example if you had gone through route X instead of Y, you could have ended up in heaven instead of hell. The problem is, you don't know which are the choices that will lead you to heaven/hell, so you can only try to do the best. Only God knows all the possible choices you can make and all the possible outcomes, including the route you're going to pick for yourself. Will this stop you from trying to do whats right? God didn't "make" you select route X. For example, if you see a dying man on a street and you walk past him, will you be blaming God for not making you stop and help him? Sorry if I sound confusing
I posted a long post about this in the beginning of the thread, but in short:
Humans: Every human has choices. You aren't forced on deeds. You can change your mind and do choice A instead of choice B. I think you as a human is fully aware of this.
God: Created humans and knows what they will choose. God's knowledge doesn't contradict the fact that you have choices. Knowledge is one of the attributes of God.
If it this still sounds confusing imagine you have the ability to know what in the other people's minds. If you look at someone you will know what he will do, yet he still has the choice. Assuming he chose choice A instead of B. You already know his choice and didn't force him to do it, and that's why it is called a choice.
God knows everything? It means God knows everything happened, everything is happening right now and what will happen in the future for every atom, water drop, animal, human, cloud and everything in the existence. I don't know if this definition is the best definition of God's knowledge, but I understand it in my mind even if I wasn't able to express it in the best words. Well, I am not the best writer I guess.
I posted a long post about this in the beginning of the thread, but in short:
Humans: Every human has choices. You aren't forced on deeds. You can change your mind and do choice A instead of choice B. I think you as a human is fully aware of this.
God: Created humans and knows what they will choose. God's knowledge doesn't contradict the fact that you have choices. Knowledge is one of the attributes of God.
If it this still sounds confusing imagine you have the ability to know what in the other people's minds. If you look at someone you will know what he will do, yet he still has the choice. Assuming he chose choice A instead of B. You already know his choice and didn't force him to do it, and that's why it is called a choice.
God knows everything? It means God knows everything happened, everything is happening right now and what will happen in the future for every atom, water drop, animal, human, cloud and everything in the existence. I don't know if this definition is the best definition of God's knowledge, but I understand it in my mind even if I wasn't able to express it in the best words. Well, I am not the best writer I guess.
One quick question: If God came to you right now and commanded you to take a gun, go down to your local grocery this morning and kill as many people as you could, would you do it?
One quick question: If God came to you right now and commanded you to take a gun, go down to your local grocery this morning and kill as many people as you could, would you do it?
If I didn't understand it, I wouldn't have written my previous post which I wrote according to my understanding. I have already said I am not a native speaker. The point is, did you understand the concept of God's knowledge? Because that's what I was trying to say.
And your question is ridiculous, dude. Why would God tell me to do something forbidden (killing innocent people)? Please, don't ask ridiculous questions. God wouldn't ask any human to do something he forbids.
If I didn't understand it, I wouldn't have written my previous post which I wrote according to my understanding. I have already said I am not a native speaker. The point is, did you understand the concept of God's knowledge? Because that's what I was trying to say.
And your question is ridiculous, dude. Why would God tell me to do something forbidden (killing innocent people)? Please, don't ask ridiculous questions. God wouldn't ask any human to do something he forbids.
