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[Nameless]

If I didn't understand it, I wouldn't have written my previous post which I wrote according to my understanding. I have already said I am not a native speaker. The point is, did you understand the concept of God's knowledge? Because that's what I was trying to say.

And your question is ridiculous, dude. Why would God tell me to do something forbidden (killing innocent people)? Please, don't ask ridiculous questions. God wouldn't ask any human to do something he forbids.

I didn't ask if, I asked how. How do you claim to no so much about an entity you admit is infinitely greater than yourself?

And as far as the second part:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

2 Kings 2:

23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”
24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven

19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of

14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
14:13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
14:15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
14:16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness

Numbers
33:50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
33:51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
33:54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
Is it OK to gamble?
33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell

Really?

 

[GT500]

Namelss, I see that you are completely clueless about Muslims beliefs.

We Muslims believe in the existence of the scripture the way it was told to the prophets. This means we believe in the prophets and we believe they were given Scriptures by God. However, people messed up the scriptures and changed what God said. There are different versions and because of that we believe they are unreliable. We believe in the Quran. God promised us to save it from being changed by people. In other words, the Quran only has one version and I believe in it.

My point? I believe what it in the Quran which I believe everything in was said by God. Anything else that's written and changed by people's mind and desires doesn't concern me and because of that I wouldn't bother with its interpretation.

However, this doesn't mean that I hate other religions or have anything against them. I practice what I believe without sticking my nose in other people's business.

 

[Monocle]

What do you think of this excerpt from one of Timothy Keller's books? It was talking about keeping religion completely private, but I think it relates.

... what religion is. Some say it is a form of belief in God. But that would not fit Zen Buddhism, which does not really believe in God at all. Some say it is belief in the supernatural. But that does not fit Hinduism, which does not believe in a supernatural realm beyond the material world, but only a spiritual reality within the empirical. What is religion then? It is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things that human beings should spend their time doing. For example, some think that this material world is all there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you. Notice that though this is not an explicit, “organized" religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things.

Some call this a "worldview" while others call it a "narrative identity.” In either case it is a . It is an implicit religion. Broadly understood, faith in some view of the world and human nature informs everyone’s life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not. All who say "You ought to do this” or "You shouldn’t do that" reason out of such an implicit moral and religious position. Pragmatists say that we should leave our deeper worldviews behind and find consensus about "what works"—but our view of what works is determine by (to use a Wendell Berry title) what we think people are for. Any picture of happy human life that “works” is necessarily informed by deep-seated beliefs about the purpose of human life.21 Even the most secular pragmatists come to the table with deep commitments and narrative accounts of what it means to be human.

I'll include the footnote if you're interested. It's kind of long so I skipped typing it.

If there was a point in there, it's obfuscated by semantic mischief. Words are useful only insofar as they convey predictable patterns of meaning. It seems to me that Mr. Keller would stretch the definition of religion so wide as to encompass any set of convictions that informs one's worldview. (And he's up to similar shenanigans with "faith.")

I have next to me the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. In it "religion" is defined as, 1) A state of life bound by religious views [...]; 2) A particular monastic or religious order or rule; 3) Belief in or sensing of some superhuman controlling power or powers [...] entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship [...]; 4) A particular system of such belief; 5) Devotion, [...] pious attachment; 6) The sanction or obligation of an oath.

Incidentally, "religious" is defined as, 1) Devoted to religion; exhibiting the spiritual or practical effects of religion, following the requirements of religion; pious, godly, devout.

With apologies to Mr. Keller, that's good enough for me. Even strong atheism, whose proponents claim that god does not exist, fails to match the conventional definitions of religion. Keep in mind, atheism generally represents a naught; it comprises the absence of religious conviction and nothing more. Keller's argument makes even less sense in that light.

I take particular issue with Keller's suggestion that every ontological view is "a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things." First, faith—belief without evidence—is malignant to practical assumptions, because practical assumptions are based on evidence, or supported by knowledge critically obtained, or posited with inductive reasoning. (We assume our tap won't start spewing fresh goat blood the next time we turn it on because of our past experience with the tap, and our knowledge that it's connected to a water distribution network, and our intuitive grasp of probability, developed simply by living in this reality.) Second, it's exceedingly dishonest of him to continue insisting that atheism involves adopting any particular philosophical beliefs, aside from the subject of god's existence, as I discussed above. Third, he offers no support for that ridiculous conceit beyond the obscure definition of religion that he himself manufactured.

I won't go so far as to say Timothy Keller is an intellectual fraud

Spoiler

(don't mind if I make an insinuation to that effect though!)

, but he uses some awfully shady tactics to peddle his opinion.

There were many contributing factors to my deconversion but I'll touch on the main points:
[snip]

Thanks for posting your story and congratulations on your deconversion.

 

[ultim8p00]

-Were ours deeds predetermined by God? For believers, God knows everything including future events of course. We humans doesn't know what will happen to in the future for sure. Our lives are filled with choices. The choices are available, but in the end, there will be one choice at a point. Our deeds are already written by God and can't be change. So, why would God punish the disobeyers if he wrote our deeds previously? The were written previously because God know what we will choose!. For example, you can either go and take a shower now or not, so you still have the choice.

Imagine those to be your choices at a point in your life. There are many choices, but you ended up choosing a specific one. That means no matter how many times you change your mind or what you choose, God has absolute knowledge of what you will choose and that's why our deeds are already written.

So, basically: God knows what you will do > God knows what you will get > You got or had something good and thanked God > those people and things around you are just reasons and since they are created by God, God is the reason and the first thanks and praises automatically go to God then to the people and the things around you. Even if the believer didn't say it out loud or think about it, he has the belief that God gave hims the good thing or the success. On the other hand, the disbeliever will only thank the people and the things around him due to the lack of belief/faith.

Of all the things the pisses me off about religion, this has got to be at the top of the list. If God knows the future, and he knows what we will do, then why write a fucking book telling us how to live in the first place? Are we all just some sick joke for him? Did he for example know that some people were going to choose to go outside for some fresh air only to be murdered by a gang member? And then does nothing? It seems to me like people just make awesome shit up about God without even thinking about what they imply.

There is absolutely no logic in what you are saying because whether or not you thank God is irrelevant because you are going to make the same choice regardless of whether you believe in him or not. God knows you are going to thank him, and you are thanking him because it was determined that you would. So there is no reason in you thanking him, and there is no reason in doing ANYTHING, just like a robot has no reason for assembling a car. I don't think you even realize how stupid that sounds.

Namelss, I see that you are completely clueless about Muslims beliefs.

We Muslims believe in the existence of the scripture the way it was told to the prophets. This means we believe in the prophets and we believe they were given Scriptures by God. However, people messed up the scriptures and changed what God said. There are different versions and because of that we believe they are unreliable. We believe in the Quran. God promised us to save it from being changed by people. In other words, the Quran only has one version and I believe in it.

My point? I believe what it in the Quran which I believe everything in was said by God. Anything else that's written and changed by people's mind and desires doesn't concern me and because of that I wouldn't bother with its interpretation.

However, this doesn't mean that I hate other religions or have anything against them. I practice what I believe without sticking my nose in other people's business.

I wish radical suicide bombers knew that.

 

[Peronthious]

Question for atheist GAF:
Assuming there is only two places in the after life, heaven and hell. If God wants to throw you in hell in the afterlife, would you except it? What would be your excuse if you want to go to heaven? What would be your reaction, or you would prefer to leave it until then and not think about it right now?

It's a perfectly valid question, but is not something that I can answer without allowing for what to me are impossible situations. If I believed in an afterlife with a heaven and hell, it wouldn't be a case of God pushing me through one door or the other because I didn't fill some checklist. The traditional portrait of heaven as an eternal "paradise" and hell as a place of torture, damnation, fire, and brimstone strike me as obviously invalid and outdated. The vision of God as an all powerful omniscient judge is likewise not something I can accept as reality. If there is an afterlife, I see it as something very personal, something that draws from how you approach life.

In The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis depicts hell as a place where you are bound to your life's ambitions. Those there cannot let go what they were in life and are trapped by dissatisfaction of what they accomplished; Napoleon is continuously fighting Waterloo, for instance. Upon arriving in hell, Lewis is confronted by a central arrival point surrounded by an infinite amount of space (anyone who's read it recently feel free to correct me, it's been about 6 years :lol). Anything you desire can immediately be produced as soon as you can think of it. Obviously this is a place which many people would see as heaven, but consider that you are bounded by "earthly" desires which such a person as would settle for them would eventually be dissatisfied with, and move on to something else. This is exactly what is eternally happening. Those who end up in hell immediately construct a house, perhaps the grandest they can imagine, just beyond the arrival point (there's an infinite amount of space, so crowding here isn't an issue). Eventually they become dissatisfied with this house, so they move further away from the central area and build another one. Thus those who have been in hell the longest are further away from the center, which is surrounded by billions of empty houses. Being trapped by their own desires, they are as dissatisfied in death as they were in life.

Lewis also had a very neat picture of heaven but unfortunately I can't recall much of it. From what I recall, heaven is a place so massive, so beyond imagination, that the entirety of the infinite space of hell fits inside a microscopic crack on the ground there.

 

[wolfmat]

My life really is hell at times. I still go through it though. So I don't give a fuck what god has planned for me in the afterlife, if such ridiculous nonsense actually exists.

 

[Peronthious]

Sometimes I think Taoism as philisophy more so than a religion. Same with Buddhism. But I admit ignorance on those subjects.

Can someone divulge a bit more into Taoism and (in some form) Buddhism? They're really interesting but still mostly foreign concepts to me.

I view religion as feeling a connection with something beyond yourself, so following that definition I think both Taoism and Buddhism qualify. Unfortunately I am relatively rusty on them as well, but I think that in Buddhism there is an understanding of both the continuity of life and of humanity, and a feeling of connection with both. Taoism I think is similar, involving natural and human forces.

 

[J-Rod]

If there was a point in there, it's obfuscated by semantic mischief. Words are useful only insofar as they convey predictable patterns of meaning. It seems to me that Mr. Keller would stretch the definition of religion so wide as to encompass any set of convictions that informs one's worldview. (And he's up to similar shenanigans with "faith.")

I have next to me the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. In it "religion" is defined as, 1) A state of life bound by religious views [...]; 2) A particular monastic or religious order or rule; 3) Belief in or sensing of some superhuman controlling power or powers [...] entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship [...]; 4) A particular system of such belief; 5) Devotion, [...] pious attachment; 6) The sanction or obligation of an oath.

Incidentally, "religious" is defined as, 1) Devoted to religion; exhibiting the spiritual or practical effects of religion, following the requirements of religion; pious, godly, devout.

With apologies to Mr. Keller, that's good enough for me. Even strong atheism, whose proponents claim that god does not exist, fails to match the conventional definitions of religion. Keep in mind, atheism generally represents a naught; it comprises the absence of religious conviction and nothing more. Keller's argument makes even less sense in that light.

I take particular issue with Keller's suggestion that every ontological view is "a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things." First, faith—belief without evidence—is malignant to practical assumptions, because practical assumptions are based on evidence, or supported by knowledge critically obtained, or posited with inductive reasoning. (We assume our tap won't start spewing fresh goat blood the next time we turn it on because of our past experience with the tap, and our knowledge that it's connected to a water distribution network, and our intuitive grasp of probability, developed simply by living in this reality.) Second, it's exceedingly dishonest of him to continue insisting that atheism involves adopting any particular philosophical beliefs, aside from the subject of god's existence, as I discussed above. Third, he offers no support for that ridiculous conceit beyond the obscure definition of religion that he himself manufactured.

I won't go so far as to say Timothy Keller is an intellectual fraud

Spoiler

(don't mind if I make an insinuation to that effect though!)

, but he uses some awfully shady tactics to peddle his opinion.


Thanks for posting your story and congratulations on your deconversion.

Maybe I am misunderstanding y'all, but it appears both you and 'jdogmoney' misunderstood the piece as he is not saying Atheism is a religion.

 

[Kinitari]

Namelss, I see that you are completely clueless about Muslims beliefs.

We Muslims believe in the existence of the scripture the way it was told to the prophets. This means we believe in the prophets and we believe they were given Scriptures by God. However, people messed up the scriptures and changed what God said. There are different versions and because of that we believe they are unreliable. We believe in the Quran. God promised us to save it from being changed by people. In other words, the Quran only has one version and I believe in it.

My point? I believe what it in the Quran which I believe everything in was said by God. Anything else that's written and changed by people's mind and desires doesn't concern me and because of that I wouldn't bother with its interpretation.

However, this doesn't mean that I hate other religions or have anything against them. I practice what I believe without sticking my nose in other people's business.

I'm going to go to my go-to question to ask religious people who claim this, and God's omniscience/omnipotent.

If the God you believe in exists, he willingly made a book he knew would be 'mistranslated' by extremists, not only killing thousands of innocents because of it, but also soiling Islam's name greatly.

1. He is all knowing he knows everything that ever will and ever can happen, so he obviously knew that Islam would be in the state it is today.

2. Apparently God sent his word to Earth a few times before, and he messed up those times, because he sent works that were so easily corrupted by men - now, the same thing is happening again, apparently! While they don't re-write the Qu'ran for fear of being murdered, they still translate it in their own way, which some might argue is even worse, it's harder for Muslims to point out that these people are not true Muslims when they are reading from the same book.

3. So with God's all-knowingness, he knew the interpretation of the book would lead to Terrorism and Islam's sullied name in our current era, and with his all-powerfulness, he did nothing. If God is all powerful, could he not make a Quran that was worded SO perfectly, that no one could argue over it's meaning? That when reading it, it would be clear cut what his desire was?

 

[Chaplain]

At all costs, the Christian must convince the heathen and the atheist that God exists, in order to save his soul. At all costs, the atheist must convince the Christian that the belief in God is but a childish and primitive superstition, doing enormous harm to the cause of true social progress. And so they battle and storm and bang away at each other. Meanwhile, the Taoist Sage sits quietly by the stream, perhaps with a book of poems, a cup of wine, and some painting materials, enjoying the Tao to his heart's content, without ever worrying or not whether the Tao exists. The Sage has no need to affirm the Tao, he is far too busy enjoying it!

- Raymond M. Smullyan, The Tao is Silent

Jesus would say to this man:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the God except through me."

“I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

"The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

"Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!"

 

[JGS]

Jesus would say to this man:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the God except through me."

“I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

The Tao guy is wrong in the first place.

I can't speak for the atheist, but many Christians enjoy affirming God's existence. It's not even remotely stressful or an unhappy experience. Further, the only requirement Christians have is telling people about Christianity (Just like the Tai is silent guy ironically), not convincing them which is often a waste of time.

A person chooses to believe and it's up to them which path they take as those quotes bring out. Repercussions are irrelevant if you don't believe in them to begin with. The quotes mentioned above were important only to ones who believe in God in the first place but refused to switch to/accept Christianity.

 

[Peronthious]

Jesus would say to this man:

And the man would look at Jesus, blink, and keep sitting.

For me, accepting the power of religion on life is enough. Seeing how religion can have such a profound effect on an individual, enough so they can alter ingrained behavior, cast aside doubts, turn away from depression, and put trust in something beyond themselves has shown me that religion is often a necessary ingredient in the human character. My own personal beliefs are irrelevant to how another person approaches religion, and provided they do not approach me on the topic I see no need to disturb their heartfelt connection with an external force.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Sometimes I think Taoism as philisophy more so than a religion. Same with Buddhism. But I admit ignorance on those subjects.

Can someone divulge a bit more into Taoism and (in some form) Buddhism? They're really interesting but still mostly foreign concepts to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Ylj9jO6BA

 

[Chaplain]

A person chooses to believe and it's up to them which path they take as those quotes bring out.

Jesus says a couple other reasons why people do not believe:

This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,

‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’

“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.

“Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts. The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word. The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

 

[wolfmat]

No one can come to the God except through metal.

Fixed

 

[Prine]

I'm going to go to my go-to question to ask religious people who claim this, and God's omniscience/omnipotent.

If the God you believe in exists, he willingly made a book he knew would be 'mistranslated' by extremists, not only killing thousands of innocents because of it, but also soiling Islam's name greatly.

1. He is all knowing he knows everything that ever will and ever can happen, so he obviously knew that Islam would be in the state it is today.

2. Apparently God sent his word to Earth a few times before, and he messed up those times, because he sent works that were so easily corrupted by men - now, the same thing is happening again, apparently! While they don't re-write the Qu'ran for fear of being murdered, they still translate it in their own way, which some might argue is even worse, it's harder for Muslims to point out that these people are not true Muslims when they are reading from the same book.

3. So with God's all-knowingness, he knew the interpretation of the book would lead to Terrorism and Islam's sullied name in our current era, and with his all-powerfulness, he did nothing. If God is all powerful, could he not make a Quran that was worded SO perfectly, that no one could argue over it's meaning? That when reading it, it would be clear cut what his desire was?

Islam has its moments when its dragged through the mud, throughout human history (in the west), i dont think this is anything new. Also, i think this has led to muslims to re-examine thier religion and understand it better to prove they're not the people some claim they are. It also has created an atmosphere of greater brotherhood among muslims uniting through demonstrations, creation of committees and clamping down on extremists.

This is from my experience in regards to your questions. And as you said, its an era, which too will eventually pass, sentiments will simmer then dissapear. Which i believe it will as being muslim is not to bring harm to yourself or others, once that is eventually realised we can move forward.

And someone else could answer this, but is the ambiguity of the Quran a result of it having to last through time? So its not time contexual?

 

[Kinitari]

Islam has its moments when its dragged through the mud, throughout human history (in the west), i dont think this is anything new. Also, i think this has led to muslims to re-examine thier religion and understand it better to prove they're not the people some claim they are. It also has created an atmosphere of greater brotherhood among muslims uniting through demonstrations, creation of committees and clamping down on extremists.

Had there been no Terrorism or other extreme aspects of Islam, there would be no need for Muslims to 'prove themselves' to anyone, no one would look at Islam in fear.

You'd think if God wanted to create an atmosphere of brotherhood among Muslims, he would have found a better way to do it - you know, one that doesn't involve war, murder and torture.

This is from my experience in regards to your questions. And as you said, its an era, which too will eventually pass, sentiments will simmer then dissapear. Which i believe it will as being muslim is not to bring harm to yourself or others, once that is eventually realised we can move forward.

Why would God even want these Eras to come about? Why would he not prevent them? Maybe not with direct intervention, but with better wording of the Qu'ran, it could be completely prevented.

And someone else could answer this, but is the ambiguity of the Quran a result of it having to last through time? So its not time contexual?

You are limiting God's power, if he is all powerful, he can have it worded how ever he wants while having it be eternal.

 

[Nameless]

Namelss, I see that you are completely clueless about Muslims beliefs.

We Muslims believe in the existence of the scripture the way it was told to the prophets. This means we believe in the prophets and we believe they were given Scriptures by God. However, people messed up the scriptures and changed what God said. There are different versions and because of that we believe they are unreliable. We believe in the Quran. God promised us to save it from being changed by people. In other words, the Quran only has one version and I believe in it.

My point? I believe what it in the Quran which I believe everything in was said by God. Anything else that's written and changed by people's mind and desires doesn't concern me and because of that I wouldn't bother with its interpretation.

However, this doesn't mean that I hate other religions or have anything against them. I practice what I believe without sticking my nose in other people's business.

It was 5am in the morning and I made the brash assumption that you were referring to a Christian God. My apologies for that. But my point is unchanged. How and why do you believe you understand any of it? I find it funny that the religious people are always qualified to speak for their God, to interpret his God's supreme word. You would think that the decree of a supreme, omnipotent, omniscient God would be implicit and up for no interpretation by mere humans.

But your posts leads me to something I wanted to I discuss anyway. Christopher Hitchens makes the point that we were all born atheist. And this is true. As we were pushed out of our mother's womb we held no belief in anything. Thousands of gods have been suggested to exist throughout history, none more viable or bearing more evidence than the other, yet most of us come to believe one of them, and have no qualms in denying the existence of the remaining thousands. Let's say you were lucky enough to be a part of a lineage and a society that perpetuated the the belief in the actual God, in your case this would be Allah. Now you brought up free-will earlier in this thread, so I ask what about everyone else? God is all knowing, he knows the evangelists in Kentucky will spend their lives worshiping a false God without the chance or the choice to follow the correct one. Yet his word states that these people would be denied salvation. How is that free-will? How does that even make sense?

 

[Anaxagoras]

And someone else could answer this, but is the ambiguity of the Quran a result of it having to last through time? So its not time contexual?

So God was restricted and limited when it came to the language because it was a trade off to make his message universal?
He created man too, keep that in mind. He shouldn't be facing such difficulties.

Reminds me of those who justify the inaccurate scientific claims in the quran by saying that people back then were uneducated and not smart enough to understand such complex scientific theories.

I know that it is often so that the speakers has to speak on the same level of understanding of his audience, but its not always so, sometimes the speaker himself doesn't have a good understanding of what he is talking about.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Namelss, I see that you are completely clueless about Muslims beliefs.

We Muslims believe in the existence of the scripture the way it was told to the prophets. This means we believe in the prophets and we believe they were given Scriptures by God. However, people messed up the scriptures and changed what God said. There are different versions and because of that we believe they are unreliable. We believe in the Quran. God promised us to save it from being changed by people. In other words, the Quran only has one version and I believe in it.

My point? I believe what it in the Quran which I believe everything in was said by God. Anything else that's written and changed by people's mind and desires doesn't concern me and because of that I wouldn't bother with its interpretation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdvsLh128Q
Enjoy!

 

[AlexMogil]

Can someone divulge a bit more into Taoism and (in some form) Buddhism? They're really interesting but still mostly foreign concepts to me.

I can speak on Buddhism a bit. Buddhism, to me, is both philosophical and spiritual. I choose to follow the philosophical aspect, so I consider myself an atheist Buddhist.

I have been to a Buddhist temple and participated in their ceremonies and generally had a lot of fun, I just don't ascribe to the 'soul' aspects of the religion. I think the general dogma and parables of the religion are a good way to live.

 

[uraldix]

Had there been no Terrorism or other extreme aspects of Islam, there would be no need for Muslims to 'prove themselves' to anyone, no one would look at Islam in fear.

There really isn't any reason to look at Islam in fear now. The people we consider terrorists are generally followers of Islam but very few followers of Islam are terrorists.

 

[Kinitari]

There really isn't any reason to look at Islam in fear now. The people we consider terrorists are generally followers of Islam but very few followers of Islam are terrorists.

I would mostly agree - the majority of Muslims are absolutely harmless, like puppies. But the fear is there, it's not just that there are Muslims who are terrorists, it has to do with the sort of response one gets for criticizing Islam for example, or even just Apostates have something to fear.

My original point is - the fear isn't entirely unfounded, while it may be largely overblown, had the language in the Qu'ran been better, there would be no need for any fear - as everyone would know there is absolutely no association with Terrorism and what have you, with Islam.

 

[wolfmat]

Why would you be afraid of Muslims? Ridiculous :lol

 

[JGS]

It was 5am in the morning and I made the brash assumption that you were referring to a Christian God. My apologies for that. But my point is unchanged. How and why do you believe you understand any of it? I find it funny that the religious people are always qualified to speak for their God, to interpret his God's supreme word. You would think that the decree of a supreme, omnipotent, omniscient God would be implicit and up for no interpretation by mere humans.

Since you threw Christianity in there, it is implicit. It's just not ABC's simple.

The fact is that the book would have been mistranslated even if it were one sentence. It is human nature to mistranslate stuff especially when it's telling them to do things contrary to what they want to do. That doesn't change what is clearly said and people refusing to accept that. If that's the case, then why even sweat the deeper stuff?

People still can't figure out Avatar for goodness sake so I imagine people are going to interpret something far more important to their own liking.

A book written over centuries by a bunch of different people for the review of ALL of mankind would be guarenteed to be misunderstood. However, just like with any study, it can be understandable. There are very few confusing things in the Bible if you look at it from the angle of:

1. Context
2. Culture
3. Continuity

The problem is that both religious and anti-religious pick their favorite verses and use that to define the whole Bible which is the wrong way to do it.

But your posts leads me to something I wanted to I discuss anyway. Christopher Hitchens makes the point that we were all born atheist. And this is true. As we were pushed out of our mother's womb we held no belief in anything. Thousands of gods have been suggested to exist throughout history, none more viable or bearing more evidence than the other, yet most of us come to believe one of them, and have no qualms in denying the existence of the remaining thousands. Let's say you were lucky enough to be a part of a lineage and a society that perpetuated the the belief in the actual God, in your case this would be Allah. Now you brought up free-will earlier in this thread, so I ask what about everyone else? God is all knowing, he knows the evangelists in Kentucky will spend their lives worshiping a false God without the chance or the choice to follow the correct one. Yet his word states that these people would be denied salvation. How is that free-will? How does that even make sense?

That statement is incorrect even for non-religious folk. People are not born atheist. They are born ignorant of any belief whatsoever and this includes non-belief.

It's like saying lions aren't born meat eaters because they drink their mother's milk at first. Technically that's true, but we also know what is inevitably going to happen. The only thing babies want when they're born is to eat and poop which has nothing to do with anything other than survival and comfort.

However, there is no doubt whatsoever that at the first chance most humans get, they will worship something. There is not a [major] culture in existence that didn't do this and it is still the majority view. Science, that "godless" bastion of all things rational and true, has even discovered the religion gene, meaning it's in our nature. Now whether that's evolution of devolution depends on your view of the matter, but it lends credence to the idea that people are born theist instincts and then work against them.

I also think you underestimate the opportunities that existed for people to learn about God. Proselytizing goes on all over the place and the choice could be that people choose to accept what they know rather than Christianity.

Even Jehovah's Witnesses who are much smaller than the Catholic Church, & only get baptized once they choose to and are qualified to, have managed to preach to even the smallest tribes. It doesn't have to be something that is a constant barrage of preaching because that doesn't work anyway.

 

[Kinitari]

Why would you be afraid of Muslims? Ridiculous :lol

Are you saying that there are not people out there who are terrified of Islam/Muslims? And to further that question, do you think that some of the language preached by Islamic scholars is not scary? How many call for the deaths of Apostates and those who smear the name of Islam?

 

[GT500]

Of all the things the pisses me off about religion, this has got to be at the top of the list. If God knows the future, and he knows what we will do, then why write a fucking book telling us how to live in the first place? Are we all just some sick joke for him? Did he for example know that some people were going to choose to go outside for some fresh air only to be murdered by a gang member? And then does nothing? It seems to me like people just make awesome shit up about God without even thinking about what they imply.

There is absolutely no logic in what you are saying because whether or not you thank God is irrelevant because you are going to make the same choice regardless of whether you believe in him or not. God knows you are going to thank him, and you are thanking him because it was determined that you would. So there is no reason in you thanking him, and there is no reason in doing ANYTHING, just like a robot has no reason for assembling a car. I don't think you even realize how stupid that sounds.

We aren't a joke. You think we are a joke because you don't believe in the afterlife and you think we exist just to live and die. However, I believe that the we are going to be punished or rewarded based on our deeds in this life. If someones does bad things, it is fair if he will to hell. If someone does good things, it is fair if he will go to heaven. However, if someone does bad things and won't be punished or does good things and won't be rewarded because death if the end? That's illogical and unfair.

God knows I will thank him, for example. But if I didn't thank him, it didn't happen and God was wrong? How come? If God knows I will thank him, he knows that because I will do it.

Because you don't believe in God and the afterlife, you think life is unfair and you will always end up pissed off. But if you don't believe in God and you are enjoying your life, well that's good for you. You will just die and it is the end. However, I don't think it is the end and I am living this life and doing my best to gain the outcome in the afterlife and at the same time, I am enjoying my life. I believe I am staying in the safe side and winning both. If you are pissed off by this, I can only see that you are being envious of other people's happiness. If this pisses you off, you can convert and believe in what believe anytime by your choice
. If you don't want, it is up to you. By the way, I am not trying to preach, just saying.

I'm going to go to my go-to question to ask religious people who claim this, and God's omniscience/omnipotent.

If the God you believe in exists, he willingly made a book he knew would be 'mistranslated' by extremists, not only killing thousands of innocents because of it, but also soiling Islam's name greatly.

1. He is all knowing he knows everything that ever will and ever can happen, so he obviously knew that Islam would be in the state it is today.

2. Apparently God sent his word to Earth a few times before, and he messed up those times, because he sent works that were so easily corrupted by men - now, the same thing is happening again, apparently! While they don't re-write the Qu'ran for fear of being murdered, they still translate it in their own way, which some might argue is even worse, it's harder for Muslims to point out that these people are not true Muslims when they are reading from the same book.

3. So with God's all-knowingness, he knew the interpretation of the book would lead to Terrorism and Islam's sullied name in our current era, and with his all-powerfulness, he did nothing. If God is all powerful, could he not make a Quran that was worded SO perfectly, that no one could argue over it's meaning? That when reading it, it would be clear cut what his desire was?

Let me answer in short point:

-God created humans to worship him.
-God sent prophets.
-Prophets are humans who are chosen to carry the message.
-Prophets are humans and humans die.
-When prophets die, God sends other prophets.
-People should always follow the message of the last prophet
-Why did God stop sending prophet?
-According to Islam, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet and his message is vaild until the Day of Judgment.
-The Quran can't be changed. The Quran is the same since prophet Muhammad's life and it will always be the same.
-The Quran is prophet Muhammad's book from God.
-Why did God promise to save the Quran? Because Muhammad is the last prophet.
-Muhammad the last prophet, why? Because the end of this world is near.
-Okay, when is the end of this life? Tomorrow? Next year? Only God knows and didn't tell anyone, not even the prophets.

Knowing the true Muslims isn't the issues because only God knows what's inside our hearts. There were spies who pretended to be Muslims and lived in Makka and Al-Madinah with prophet Muhammad and the Muslims. But they were discovered. And even if they weren't discovered by the Muslims at some point, God will judge them based on what they truly believe and what's inside them, not what they pretend and say in front of the people.

In Islam, those who pretend call themselves Muslims and pretend to be Muslims when they are actually not true Muslims, will be in the lowest level of Hell and will have the greatest punishment. Liars aren't going to get away. Like I said previously, this life is a test. Passing or falling this test depends on what you do based on your intentions. For example, in religious practice, if some prayed only he wants to show people that he is good, God wouldn't accept this prayer because of the intention. Yes, he prayed because he wants to pray, but because he wanted to show off.

And you have to know this thing, God won't reward or punish people until establishes proof against them. We believe God is just. Let me give you a simple case/example, if a 2 years old child died, God wouldn't throw him in hell because there is no reason to punish him.

 

[wolfmat]

Are you saying that there are not people out there who are terrified of Islam/Muslims?

Doesn't mean they have a non-ridiculous reason to be afraid. Stupid people are afraid of Muslims.

And to further that question, do you think that some of the language preached by Islamic scholars is not scary? How many call for the deaths of Apostates and those who smear the name of Islam?

How does that matter? And do you really want to extend that language to all Muslims? Completely crazy, man.

I know a lot of Muslims. Real nice people. Brown as you can be, don't speak my language properly, all that. Still nice people. So I would never be afraid of a person just because he's Muslim, brown or doesn't speak my language properly. How fucked up is that anyway?

 

[GT500]

It was 5am in the morning and I made the brash assumption that you were referring to a Christian God. My apologies for that. But my point is unchanged. How and why do you believe you understand any of it? I find it funny that the religious people are always qualified to speak for their God, to interpret his God's supreme word. You would think that the decree of a supreme, omnipotent, omniscient God would be implicit and up for no interpretation by mere humans.

But your posts leads me to something I wanted to I discuss anyway. Christopher Hitchens makes the point that we were all born atheist. And this is true. As we were pushed out of our mother's womb we held no belief in anything. Thousands of gods have been suggested to exist throughout history, none more viable or bearing more evidence than the other, yet most of us come to believe one of them, and have no qualms in denying the existence of the remaining thousands. Let's say you were lucky enough to be a part of a lineage and a society that perpetuated the the belief in the actual God, in your case this would be Allah. Now you brought up free-will earlier in this thread, so I ask what about everyone else? God is all knowing, he knows the evangelists in Kentucky will spend their lives worshiping a false God without the chance or the choice to follow the correct one. Yet his word states that these people would be denied salvation. How is that free-will? How does that even make sense?

God says that people are born believers. Prophets, messages and religious practices exist to guide us in this life. If people were born atheists, God wouldn't let a kid who died in when he was 4, for example, go to heaven according to what I believe.

My point? You assume that people were born atheists based on what you believe. I assume that people were born believers because of what I believe.




For those who argue about Muslims are harmless/Muslims aren't, a true Muslim who practices Islam correctly wouldn't hurt you and has no right to do that. Hurting a non-Muslim is against the Islamic law.

We aren't required to fight people and we don't fight unless the situation meets those conditions:
-If they attack us.
-If they break treaties.

You already know that there are many non-Muslims who live in Muslims countries such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Morocco...etc.

 

[Anaxagoras]

That statement is incorrect even for non-religious folk. People are not born atheist. They are born ignorant of any belief whatsoever and this includes non-belief.

It's like saying lions aren't born meat eaters because they drink their mother's milk at first. Technically that's true, but we also know what is inevitably going to happen. The only thing babies want when they're born is to eat and poop which has nothing to do with anything other than survival and comfort.

You are mixing shit up, find a better example for your argument.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, not the position to never believe in a god.
Young lions don't eat meat is not the same thing as will never eat meat.
Children lack a belief in a god = atheists.

The example with the lion is just stupid, not even a choice.
A better example would be not collecting stamps, All new borns lack the hobby of collecting stamps =Astampcollecters.

 

[Prine]

Had there been no Terrorism or other extreme aspects of Islam, there would be no need for Muslims to 'prove themselves' to anyone, no one would look at Islam in fear.

I dont understand this, terrorism is an Islamic invention? Even though the same terror is taken out on muslims and devout followers?

Desperation is something Islam tries to curb, not empower.

I think this statement is unfair, as your ignoring the complexities and circumstances within individuals to cause so much suffering.

You'd think if God wanted to create an atmosphere of brotherhood among Muslims, he would have found a better way to do it - you know, one that doesn't involve war, murder and torture.



Why would God even want these Eras to come about? Why would he not prevent them? Maybe not with direct intervention, but with better wording of the Qu'ran, it could be completely prevented.



You are limiting God's power, if he is all powerful, he can have it worded how ever he wants while having it be eternal.

It goes back to the question why would god want to test us in the first place if he removed all suffering. I will answer this when i get out of work!

 

[Anaxagoras]

God says that people are born believers. Prophets, messages and religious practices exist to guide us in this life. If people were born atheists, God wouldn't let a kid who died in when he was 4, for example, go to heaven according to what I believe.

My point? You assume that people were born atheists based on what you believe. I assume that people were born believers because of what I believe.

You believe that they are believers but in reality they are not.
Ask a kid who hasn't been indoctrinated about it and you will understand that he has no beliefs about God = an atheist.
Maybe thats hard since most religious people teach their kids to say things that they don't yet understand, but if you come to Sweden or any other proper secular country you will see it for yourself.
You simply won't find your kid talking about God and practicing religious rituals all of the sudden after leaving him in a room with a football for half an hour.

As for kids going to heaven that is because they didn't reach a mature age to be able to decide, along with the mentally challenge and those who didn't receive the message.

For those who argue about Muslims are harmless/Muslims aren't, a true Muslim who practices Islam correctly wouldn't hurt you and has no right to do that.

We aren't required to fight people and we don't fight unless the situations meets those conditions:
-If they attack us.
-If they break treaties.

You already know that there are many non-Muslims who live in Muslims countries such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Morocco...etc.

That is according to how you believe Islam should be practiced.

 

[wolfmat]

That is according to how you believe Islam should be practiced.

What does that even mean? Of course it's according to how you believe Islam should be practised. You can say that about anything though. Doesn't mean there's a truth to it.

You could say the same for Christians, Satanists, members of the Order of the Golden Dawn, whatever. Doesn't really mean anything though.

Are you seriously trying to make a point for fear mongering towards Muslims? Why would you do that?

 

[JGS]

You believe that they are believers but in reality they are not.
Ask a kid who hasn't been indoctrinated about it and you will understand that he has no beliefs about God = an atheist.
Maybe thats hard since most religious people teach their kids to say things that they don't yet understand, but if you come to Sweden or any other proper secular country you will see it for yourself.
You simply won't find your kid talking about God and practicing religious rituals all of the sudden after leaving him in a room with a football for half an hour.

That is not what makes an atheist. At best they are agnostic, but even then, it doesn't apply. What happens if you talk to a kid and he believes in the boogey man but not god. Does that make him atheist or theist or a boogey manist?

It's time for people to step out of their black and white worlds and think logically. People by and large have a belief system in place that has nothing to do with atheistic tendencies. It's silly to suggest so when the bulk of human history, back to cave man days, suggest that atheist have always been a rare breed of human.

 

[Kinitari]

Doesn't mean they have a non-ridiculous reason to be afraid. Stupid people are afraid of Muslims.

While I am wandering from my original point, what about gay people in Islamic countries? Should they not be afraid?

How does that matter? And do you really want to extend that language to all Muslims? Completely crazy, man.

I didn't realize I WAS extending the language to all Muslims, in fact I remember specifically saying most Muslims are entirely harmless, like puppies is what I said. My mom for example, would not hurt a fly. But the culture is undeniably there, intermixed with Islam.

I know a lot of Muslims. Real nice people. Brown as you can be, don't speak my language properly, all that. Still nice people. So I would never be afraid of a person just because he's Muslim, brown or doesn't speak my language properly. How fucked up is that anyway?

Maybe I was unclear - there are many people who are Muslim, who live in Islamic countries, who do things that are very not nice. They do so in the name of Islam - killing homosexuals is an easy example. This really smears the name of all Muslims - I am not saying all Muslims are going to kill homosexuals, only that all Muslims end up having to live with the burden of their violent brethren. I mean, I do not fear a single person in my family - and they are ALL Muslim, but if I declared my apostasy in like... Afghanistan, I would be a bit nervous around Muslims - and I think fairly so.

 

[Dude Abides]

-God created humans to worship him.
-God sent prophets.
-Prophets are humans who are chosen to carry the message.
-Prophets are humans and humans die.
-When prophets die, God sends other prophets.
-People should always follow the message of the last prophet
-Why did God stop sending prophet?
-According to Islam, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet and his message is vaild until the Day of Judgment.
-The Quran can't be changed. The Quran is the same since prophet Muhammad's life and it will always be the same.
-The Quran is prophet Muhammad's book from God.
-Why did God promise to save the Quran? Because Muhammad is the last prophet.
-Muhammad the last prophet, why? Because the end of this world is near.
-Okay, when is the end of this life? Tomorrow? Next year? Only God knows and didn't tell anyone, not even the prophets.

What an arbitrary, capricious, insecure, and childish entity you have described. Who would want to believe in such a being, much less worship it?

 

[Kinitari]

I dont understand this, terrorism is an Islamic invention? Even though the same terror is taken out on muslims and devout followers?

Not trying to imply it is an Islamic invention, only that it is strongly connected to Islam in today's day in age. Had the Qu'ran been worded by a perfect all powerful and knowing being, he could have easily made it clear that terrorism can and will never be justified by Islam, thus letting all people know that Islam should not be associated with Terrorism, even the dumb people and the Terrorists themselves.

I think this statement is unfair, as your ignoring the complexities and circumstances within individuals to cause so much suffering.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

It goes back to the question why would god want to test us in the first place if he removed all suffering. I will answer this when i get out of work!

You do not have to suffer to be tested, I don't see why you would. And if orchestrating the deaths of innocents is part of his test, well that's just not very nice - is it?

 

[JGS]

You are mixing shit up, find a better example for your argument.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, not the position to never believe in a god.
Young lions don't eat meat is not the same thing as will never eat meat.
Children lack a belief in a god = atheists.

The example with the lion is just stupid, not even a choice.
A better example would be not collecting stamps, All new borns lack the hobby of collecting stamps =Astampcollecters.

Find a better statement from a smarter guy and I will change the analogy. Otherwise it fits just fine.

A baby lacks a belief in anything, even life. It is silly to place a belief system on a baby. You would just as well place it on a catepillar.

You argue my analogy but then fail to understand it. The stamp collection is baseless because you are attributing a particular religious belief, something I did not do.

In short, young people not believing is not the same thing as never believing.

Spend a little more time disproving my opinion and not my analogy which you didn't grasp. I say, and await proof to the contrary, that young people believe/have faith in any number of things that other don't believe in. If you didn't know that, you don't hang around a lot of kids.

As they grow into adulthood, barring any other external forces, including atheistic ones, they will form a belief system/religion/superstition. It happens time and again. It's not going to stop either.

 

[GT500]

You believe that they are believers but in reality they are not.
Ask a kid who hasn't been indoctrinated about it and you will understand that he has no beliefs about God = an atheist.
Maybe thats hard since most religious people teach their kids to say things that they don't yet understand, but if you come to Sweden or any other proper secular country you will see it for yourself.
You simply won't find your kid talking about God and practicing religious rituals all of the sudden after leaving him in a room with a football for half an hour.

As for kids going to heaven that is because they didn't reach a mature age to be able to decide, along with the mentally challenge and those who didn't receive the message.

You should be aware of the fact the practicing religion=\=believing in a higher power and starting to wonder about the existence.

Imagine someone who lived alone on an Island since he were born without any outside effects. He would start to wonder about his existence as a human. I don't think he will think that he evolved, or created by anything the atheists say. The easiest thing would be believing in the existence of a higher power who brought him there. In other words, believing that something brought him to this world. People have a beginning and an end in this life. Any human would think that there is something that created this beginning. This something is automatically called Gods whether the human called "God" in words or not. You may call it chance as an atheist, so chance is your God? Or you didn't exist by something in the first place? LOL.

What an arbitrary, capricious, insecure, and childish entity you have described. Who would want to believe in such a being, much less worship it?

You think this is bullshit because you don't believe in it. At least the others are discussing and providing opinions instead of just criticizing. Anyone with this attitude should GTFO in my opinion.

 

[Anaxagoras]

That is not what makes an atheist. At best they are agnostic, but even then, it doesn't apply. What happens if you talk to a kid and he believes in the boogey man but not god. Does that make him atheist or theist or a boogey manist?

It's time for people to step out of their black and white worlds and think logically. People by and large have a belief system in place that has nothing to do with atheistic tendencies. It's silly to suggest so when the bulk of human history, back to cave man days, suggest that atheist have always been a rare breed of human.

Again, let me help you with this:

Theism and atheism are are about beliefs.
Agnosticism and gnosticism are about knowledge.

Theism is the belief in a God, atheism is the lack of belief in a God. Agnosticism is the uncertainty about God's existence, gnosticism is the certainty about God's existence or nonexistence.
Agnostics and most atheists are agnostic atheists and most religious people are gnostic theists.

In order to to be a believer you should be familiar with the idea of a God.
If you are not then you are not a believer in a God.
Children are not born with the idea of a God therefore lack a belief in a God.
The lack of belief in god is atheism.
We are born atheists.

If you don't know what X is then you don't have any beliefs about it.

 

[Shanadeus]

You believe that they are believers but in reality they are not.
Ask a kid who hasn't been indoctrinated about it and you will understand that he has no beliefs about God = an atheist.

Maybe thats hard since most religious people teach their kids to say things that they don't yet understand, but if you come to Sweden or any other proper secular country you will see it for yourself.
You simply won't find your kid talking about God and practicing religious rituals all of the sudden after leaving him in a room with a football for half an hour.

That is not what makes an atheist. At best they are agnostic, but even then, it doesn't apply. What happens if you talk to a kid and he believes in the boogey man but not god. Does that make him atheist or theist or a boogey manist?

It's time for people to step out of their black and white worlds and think logically. People by and large have a belief system in place that has nothing to do with atheistic tendencies. It's silly to suggest so when the bulk of human history, back to cave man days, suggest that atheist have always been a rare breed of human.

Atheism, a lack of belief in God.
We're all born atheist.

 

[Dude Abides]

I say, and await proof to the contrary, that young people believe/have faith in any number of things that other don't believe in. If you didn't know that, you don't hang around a lot of kids.

As they grow into adulthood, barring any other external forces, including atheistic ones, they will form a belief system/religion/superstition. It happens time and again. It's not going to stop either.

You're completely missing his point, which is about how we're born, not what we're taught as we grow up. If you're going to claim people are born with beliefs, it's your burden to demonstrate it, not his to refute it.

 

[wolfmat]

While I am wandering from my original point, what about gay people in Islamic countries? Should they not be afraid?

Well, they should be aware, and they should work against hatecrimes and the like. Why should they be afraid of Muslims in general though? Such hatecrimes are always localized.

And it's really not the religion that kills people, it's killers that kill people. So be afraid of Muslim killers. That I can subscribe to.

I didn't realize I WAS extending the language to all Muslims, in fact I remember specifically saying most Muslims are entirely harmless, like puppies is what I said. My mom for example, would not hurt a fly. But the culture is undeniably there, intermixed with Islam.

"The culture is there" - the culture is everywhere. 60 years ago, it was acceptable to punch your woman in the face as long as you did it at home. 200 years ago, people threw children they didn't want onto the street. My country has troops in Afghanistan for some reason. People sell drugs and steal. What are you afraid of, really? Some religious group? Why? Because they have suicide bombers in their past? Well, who doesn't?

Maybe I was unclear - there are many people who are Muslim, who live in Islamic countries, who do things that are very not nice. They do so in the name of Islam - killing homosexuals is an easy example. This really smears the name of all Muslims - I am not saying all Muslims are going to kill homosexuals, only that all Muslims end up having to live with the burden of their violent brethren. I mean, I do not fear a single person in my family - and they are ALL Muslim, but if I declared my apostasy in like... Afghanistan, I would be a bit nervous around Muslims - and I think fairly so.

What you're really afraid of then is backwood Afghanis.

I wouldn't try to argue against being fearful of dangerous people if you can't fight against them. I would argue against being afraid of Muslims though.
In some hick KKK town in southern USA, the people punching blacks to death as a hobby are Christians. So I should be afraid of Christians now? Of course not.

 

[Anaxagoras]

What does that even mean? Of course it's according to how you believe Islam should be practised. You can say that about anything though. Doesn't mean there's a truth to it.

You could say the same for Christians, Satanists, members of the Order of the Golden Dawn, whatever. Doesn't really mean anything though.

Are you seriously trying to make a point for fear mongering towards Muslims? Why would you do that?

Yes I would, and I am just pointing out to him that that is his belief only, there is no such thing as only one way of practicing Islam.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Find a better statement from a smarter guy and I will change the analogy. Otherwise it fits just fine.

A baby lacks a belief in anything, even life. It is silly to place a belief system on a baby. You would just as well place it on a catepillar.

You argue my analogy but then fail to understand it. The stamp collection is baseless because you are attributing a particular religious belief, something I did not do.

In short, young people not believing is not the same thing as never believing.

Spend a little more time disproving my opinion and not my analogy which you didn't grasp. I say, and await proof to the contrary, that young people believe/have faith in any number of things that other don't believe in. If you didn't know that, you don't hang around a lot of kids.

As they grow into adulthood, barring any other external forces, including atheistic ones, they will form a belief system/religion/superstition. It happens time and again. It's not going to stop either.

Read this again:

Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, not the position to never believe in a god.

You are born without the concept of a God, you are an atheist until you get introduced to it AND choose to accept and believe it.

Atheism is not a belief system, it the lack of a belief.

 

[Shanadeus]

You should be aware of the fact the practicing religion=\=believing in a higher power and starting to wonder about the existence.

Imagine someone who lived alone on an Island since he were born without any outside effects. He would start to wonder about his existence as a human. I don't think he will think that he evolved, or created by anything the atheists say. The easiest thing would be believing in the existence of a higher power who brought him there. In other words, believing that something brought him to this world. People have a beginning and an end in this life. Any human would think that there is something that created this beginning. This something is automatically called Gods whether the human called "God" in words or not. You may call it chance as an atheist, so chance is your God? Or you didn't exist by something in the first place? LOL.


You think this is bullshit because you don't believe in it. At least the others are discussing and providing opinions instead of just criticizing. Anyone with this attitude should GTFO in my opinion.

You're making a lot of assumptions based on your own experiences and beliefs, he could just observe his environment and when seeing animals getting born to other animals assume he was born by another human. Why would he assume he was created by a superior creature when all around him, equal creatures give rise to other equal creatures and that in some cases the younger ones are stronger and better than the older ones.

 

[Kinitari]

Well, they should be aware, and they should work against hatecrimes and the like. Why should they be afraid of Muslims in general though? Such hatecrimes are always localized.

I can see I am really wandering from my initial point, but I'll indulge you here - when Muslims declare you should be killed because of your sexual orientation or something, and try to kill you - you will end up being afraid of Muslims - regardless of whether or not it's always logical to do so - Muslims here in Canada are as docile as lambs, they wont try to kill any gay people - but if I guy just escaped the clutches of homosexual killing Muslims in... I don't know... Somalia, and ran into some Muslims over here - he would be, in good reason, afraid.

And it's really not the religion that kills people, it's killers that kill people. So be afraid of Muslim killers. That I can subscribe to.

It's human nature to fear in much broader terms. If someone almost drowns, they won't fear the pool they almost drowned in, they will be afraid of water. This maybe isn't reasonable, but it's to be expected.

"The culture is there" - the culture is everywhere. 60 years ago, it was acceptable to punch your woman in the face as long as you did it at home. 200 years ago, people threw children they didn't want onto the street. My country has troops in Afghanistan for some reason. People sell drugs and steal. What are you afraid of, really? Some religious group? Why? Because they have suicide bombers in their past? Well, who doesn't?

I am not defending any religious groups who have, or continue to push this culture, I am simply shining the spotlight on Islam, and the perfect word of the Qu'ran right now. This whole discussion is kind of taking away from my original point - which is, it would be entirely possible for the Islamic version of God to prevent the mistranslation of the Qu'ran, and I guess the 'fear' some people feel towards Islam because of said mistranslations. Why doesn't he?

What you're really afraid of then is backwood Afghanis.

What I really mean is, why is it so easy for them to justify their behaviour from verses in the Qu'ran?

I wouldn't try to argue against being fearful of dangerous people if you can't fight against them. I would argue against being afraid of Muslims though.
In some hick KKK town in southern USA, the people punching blacks to death as a hobby are Christians. So I should be afraid of Christians now? Of course not.

Some people who grow up in that situation might very well end up their entire lives fearing Christians, even if they leave, emotional scarring from a traumatic event may stain their view of all Christians for the rest of their lives.

 

[Prine]

Not trying to imply it is an Islamic invention, only that it is strongly connected to Islam in today's day in age. Had the Qu'ran been worded by a perfect all powerful and knowing being, he could have easily made it clear that terrorism can and will never be justified by Islam, thus letting all people know that Islam should not be associated with Terrorism, even the dumb people and the Terrorists themselves.

I bolded the important part here. Why do you think this is? Why only in the mid/late 20th century? Did these fundies wake up and decide they're going to wreak havoc? What is their motivation? Is it islamic or personal? And the Quran perfectly words that their actions are wrong.

Edit: Im making a case against terrorists not muslims!

Can you clarify what you mean here?

Relates to question i asked above.

You do not have to suffer to be tested, I don't see why you would. And if orchestrating the deaths of innocents is part of his test, well that's just not very nice - is it?

This require some time to write. I got to upload some videos for Nokia! I will answer i promise.

 

[Anaxagoras]

You should be aware of the fact the practicing religion=\=believing in a higher power and starting to wonder about the existence.

Imagine someone who lived alone on an Island since he were born without any outside effects. He would start to wonder about his existence as a human. I don't think he will think that he evolved, or created by anything the atheists say. The easiest thing would be believing in the existence of a higher power who brought him there. In other words, believing that something brought him to this world. People have a beginning and an end in this life. Any human would think that there is something that created this beginning. This something is automatically called Gods whether the human called "God" in words or not. You may call it chance as an atheist, so chance is your God? Or you didn't exist by something in the first place? LOL.

You still don't get it :/
We are not talking about what you believe later on in life, we are talking about the early childhood.
Being an atheist doesn't mean you will always be an atheist.
I wasn't a football player when I was born, but I later on learned how to play football, but this doesn't change the fact that I didn't know how to play football when I was born.

We were all born non-stamp collectors, we didn't know what were stamps, we didn't collect them. Whether you change later on in your life it still doesn't change the fact that you were a non-stamp collector as a child.

Last but not least, leave the lols about chance for later, you don't want me to dwell into that do you?

 

[wolfmat]

What I really mean is, why is it so easy for them to justify their behaviour from verses in the Qu'ran?

I can justify violence of any kind towards any group I dislike with any random religious statement. Let's use one of the more ridiculous ones, always good for some controversy: "Thou shalt not commit murder" — interpretation of some Christians: "Kill murderers".

It's surprisingly easy, really. "And God said, Let there be light, And there was light" - kill all black people because their skin is dark. You might say that is reaching, but there are actually people out there thinking along those lines. And you should in fact fear them because they are crazy as fuck.

Why is it so easy to do this? Because it's wrong, and as soon as you've got an evil agenda, you're okay with saying wrong things and mix in some rhetoric measures to make it sound right.

Fearmongering is the real issue. But I don't want to talk about that in the context of religion, mostly because a lot of people don't want to hear the truth about the true relation between religion and fearmongering, partly because it's so controversial that I won't be able to type fast enough to handle the discussion in a meaningful manner.

Some people who grow up in that situation might very well end up their entire lives fearing Christians, even if they leave, emotional scarring from a traumatic event may stain their view of all Christians for the rest of their lives.

Doesn't mean it's right. It doesn't justify anything. This just leads to false accusations, hate without reason, war, death. It's what's wrong with the world. So don't make a point for generalizations like "Fear the Muslim because of X" — that's where it starts to get ugly. Be specific, be truthful, be rational no matter what or face the fact that your hypothetical hate towards group X is as bad as their alleged hate towards homosexuals or whatever else it is that grinds your gears.