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[GateofD]

i really like seeing the aftermath of the Riddler's attack and how it actually affects the people.
and Penguin not liking what he did brings another level of realism to it

 

[March Climber]

Imagine if The Sopranos was "The Penguins" instead, or The Wire was "Gotham Beat". Any value added there? Or just handicaps?

If it's good it doesn't matter as it's a win-win. I simply don't see the problem with your two ideas, and that's exactly how I feel with this show.

Also, you're taking this show's concept as an 'either/or' situation, when as far as I'm aware there was never an 'either/or' here. They had a vision for a penguin show based in this universe and executed on the concept. You're acting like they took a pre-existing script from a different cancelled show and retrofitted it into this Penguin show. I guess the latter could be more upsetting if it were a thing, but people still wouldn't care as much as long as it was good

 

[FunkMiller]

This is easily the best show on TV right now. Milioti's performance in episode 4 is fucking sublime. Sofia's character is every bit as good as Oz.

I thought it would be a good series, but I didn't think it would be this good, or genuinely add texture and context to The Batman that improves the movie as well, retroactively.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

This is easily the best show on TV right now. Milioti's performance in episode 4 is fucking sublime. Sofia's character is every bit as good as Oz.

I thought it would be a good series, but I didn't think it would be this good, or genuinely add texture and context to The Batman that improves the movie as well, retroactively.

Episode 4 was a banger especially loved how it connected to The Batman in a big way I loved how the whole Arkham segment of the episode felt like horror. It was very effective too. I totally understand why she killed all those relatives in the end. I loved her character in How I Met Your Mother and now this show. She's got range I'll say

 

[Hugare]

Yeah, this is the best show in a while

Episode 4 was by far my favorite. Great in all fronts.

Im even enjoying it more than The Batman lol. By quite a margin.

 

[RavenSan]

Is this the best 'spin-off' ever made?

I know, I may be being hyperbolic, but usually spin off shows (or spin-off movies) are dog shit.

Ep 4 was incredible

 

[Zephyranthes]

Oz and Sofia are two of the best characters I've seen on television in a long time. Fantastic stuff so far, let's see if they can keep this up.

 

[Romulus]

Probably the biggest surprise in TV I can remember. I'm glued to the screen and somehow I want to like this disgusting bastard of a villain.

 

[YCoCg]

To think, if you went back a few years and said that a Penguin TV Show would be rated vastly better than a high budget Joker movie people would've just laughed.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'll get into this on the weekend. I like gritty shows, as opposed to any comic book media being cheesy.

 

[Revolutionary]

The show is good but I feel like Cristin Milioti is elevating it even further because she's giving the performance of a lifetime.

 

[March Climber]

The show is good but I feel like Cristin Milioti is elevating it even further because she's giving the performance of a lifetime.

I’m glad, it should more often than not, be that way for acting. Perform at your best potential for better roles and become a name to remember. Shouldn’t matter how great or shitty the role is, they made it to a point where hundreds of others failed, so they have to prove that they were worth the choice.

 

[FunkMiller]

The show is good but I feel like Cristin Milioti is elevating it even further because she's giving the performance of a lifetime.

I remember watching her in Palm Springs and thinking she was pretty good, but nothing on the level she achieves in episode 4 of Penguin. It's such a controlled, convincing performance throughout. Incredibly good.

Also, should be noted that the show is run by, and episode 4 was directed by, women. This is how you actually do strong female characters. Would be nice for the rest of modern Hollywood to watch and fucking learn.

 

[March Climber]

Also, should be noted that the show is run by, and episode 4 was directed by, women. This is how you actually do strong female characters. Would be nice for the rest of modern Hollywood to watch and fucking learn.

…and script doctors. You need people to question and help fix things that don’t sound right. Without people asking ‘who is this character beyond _____’ or ‘Is ___ action possible by this character?’ you get those impossible situations that take you out of the experience.

I think over time we will improve out of the phase of ‘this character’s personality is based entirely on this one aspect’ level of writing, for both men and women.

Eventually hollywood will either figure things out again, or it will be too late by the time they do because the AI will be already ready to go. I just hope that people out there don’t immediately dismiss newer stuff out there that’s trying to do what you’re asking of(but no one is paying attention).

 

[Hotel Security]

I'm a bit behind but I got through the first two episodes. I was worried it would be yet another comic-book show but it seems to be going for a traditional gangster show and I'm glad there's no superhero/supervillian elements. I hope it stays that way. Maybe have some references to Batman doing things in the city but I'd be fine if he never shows up at all. Let the gangsters kill each other.

First episode was pretty good but I was pretty impressed with Episode 2. Right from the start you have the heist-gone-wrong and the entire episode is a big scramble to clean it up. The episode never slowed down and I was hooked the whole time. Nicely done.

or it will be too late by the time they do because the AI will be already ready to go.

There's no way an AI will get better at writing human characters than actual humans. AI can crap out the plot of a generic action movie or drama but they're not going to write realistic dialogue. Heck, half the humans out there can't even write realistic dialogue. I'm not that worried about AI's influence. At best, they'll just produce very average or mediocre content and I already ignore that stuff as it is.

 

[March Climber]

There's no way an AI will get better at writing human characters than actual humans. AI can crap out the plot of a generic action movie or drama but they're not going to write realistic dialogue. Heck, half the humans out there can't even write realistic dialogue. I'm not that worried about AI's influence. At best, they'll just produce very average or mediocre content.

No one said anything about ‘better’, it just has to be good enough.

 

[Hotel Security]

I'm not sure what constitutes "good enough" given how much garbage is already out there. But, yeah, if a studio wants to get cheap, they can use an AI writer and this will cause folks to lose jobs...but there will be plenty of real content by real people that we can latch onto. Won't be much different from now where the shovelware properties get the most attention and you have to go digging to find the best stuff.

Though given that Gen-Z seems to be against traditional music with instruments maybe there will be a movement against "traditional writing" to "embrace AI" and that will result in these crappy properties getting big ratings. We're not too far from people falling in love and wanting to marry their AI's so I'll bet there will be a movement to try to humanize them. It'll be messed up but I'll thankfully be dead or senile by then.

 

[taizuke]

And they say we "incels" hate female characters. No. We hate badly written modern female characters. Kristin's performance is electrifying.

 

[Toons]

2.5 episodes in so far. Really good show.

I kinds feel bad for Sofia beifn constantly manipulated by these clowns at the top, I know her destiny is to be screwed over by Oz as he ascends to the criminal kingpin we know he will become. But I find myself kinds rooting for her to win against these mfs

 

[poopchad420]

I'm opposite of most people here - I liked episodes 1 and 2, but episodes 3 and 4 are not my style.

 

[Hotel Security]

And they say we "incels" hate female characters. No. We hate badly written modern female characters.

This feels subjective. Many of the complaints about these characters before people even see them. In those cases they just hate the idea of the empowered women. And the idea of "badly-written" certainly seems a bit like a moving goalpost in the idea that only certain character types are acceptable and strong empowered women aren't allowed. Is Cristin's performance great because the character is very flawed and troubled? Is that the only woman that's acceptable in cinema? Seems a bit restrictive, yes?

If we want to question a female character on the show, I'd go with the mother. Not because she's a bad character but it's a bit of a trope with the tough-guy character having a parent with dementia. I hope that relationship gets deeper than what it is but some background stories on them could help.

For me, felt Episode 1 was pretty good and Part 2 was excellent and real fun. I'll try to catch up over the weekend.

 

[taizuke]

This feels subjective. Many of the complaints about these characters before people even see them. In those cases they just hate the idea of the empowered women. And the idea of "badly-written" certainly seems a bit like a moving goalpost in the idea that only certain character types are acceptable and strong empowered women aren't allowed. Is Cristin's performance great because the character is very flawed and troubled? Is that the only woman that's acceptable in cinema? Seems a bit restrictive, yes?

I'll agree that people often jump the gun whenever they see an "empowered female character". But, that's only because we've been conditioned to expect this. That said, people should try to never judge a book by it's cover.

I will say the problem often with the "empowered female character" by modern Hollywood is that it jumps all the hoops to get to the end goal, creating an empty shell missing all the components of a well developed character. They think just having a "strong woman" is enough.

If you're looking at this in black and white, good or bad, then of course you're going to think we only want to see female characters written one way. But, that couldn't be further from the truth. A female character doesn't always have to be flawed, but is one of the most fundamental ways you can make a character likeable and relatable. No human being is perfect so why does their idea of a "strong female character" often is? It's an idealized fantasy for the sole reason that is "woman's turn now to take the lead". It comes off as childish, ignorant, and immature and 90% of the time the character reflects it.

It's funny, modern Hollywood is actually the one who thinks of female characters one way when you think about it.

 

[MaestroMike]

 

[Trilobit]

It just keeps getting better and better. That scene with Penguin and Sofia where

Spoiler

he starts foaming from his mouth trying to save his neck from lady Maroni was top notch and then you see Sofia astounded. It was a great catalyst for her and the one thing that finally makes her say "fuck it! I've had it, I'll only rely on myself from this point forward and let my gut guide me instead of the men in my life." And while it looks like a moment of empowerment as she wanders around the dead house, you're also reminded that she has now done to the little girl what her dad did to his mother.

I can't wait for the upcoming episodes!

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Binge watched 4 episodes late night. Great show. Except I'm not totally feeling the teenage kid sidekick. I get it that they need someone to team up with Penguin so he's not a loner, but they could had done something else.

Episode 4 is nuts. Crazy episode that is creepy, unpredictable and Sofia is a true gem. Great wacko acting.

And one of the mafia guys looks kind of like Steve Martin. lol

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This feels subjective. Many of the complaints about these characters before people even see them. In those cases they just hate the idea of the empowered women. And the idea of "badly-written" certainly seems a bit like a moving goalpost in the idea that only certain character types are acceptable and strong empowered women aren't allowed. Is Cristin's performance great because the character is very flawed and troubled? Is that the only woman that's acceptable in cinema? Seems a bit restrictive, yes?

If we want to question a female character on the show, I'd go with the mother. Not because she's a bad character but it's a bit of a trope with the tough-guy character having a parent with dementia. I hope that relationship gets deeper than what it is but some background stories on them could help.

For me, felt Episode 1 was pretty good and Part 2 was excellent and real fun. I'll try to catch up over the weekend.

I'll agree that people often jump the gun whenever they see an "empowered female character". But, that's only because we've been conditioned to expect this. That said, people should try to never judge a book by it's cover.

I will say the problem often with the "empowered female character" by modern Hollywood is that it jumps all the hoops to get to the end goal, creating an empty shell missing all the components of a well developed character. They think just having a "strong woman" is enough.

If you're looking at this in black and white, good or bad, then of course you're going to think we only want to see female characters written one way. But, that couldn't be further from the truth. A female character doesn't always have to be flawed, but is one of the most fundamental ways you can make a character likeable and relatable. No human being is perfect so why does their idea of a "strong female character" often is? It's an idealized fantasy for the sole reason that is "woman's turn now to take the lead". It comes off as childish, ignorant, and immature and 90% of the time the character reflects it.

It's funny, modern Hollywood is actually the one who thinks of female characters one way when you think about it.

I just watched all 4 Penguin episodes and think Sofia is awesome.

I think in general (maybe I'm totally wrong), a lot of people dont like modern day women being uber powerful is due to many things:

1. There can be a political slant to it (men are bad vibe)

2. Whether its a grounded show like Penguin, or super sci fi shit like superheroes, I think a lot of people relate that to real life. So even though it's fiction, people see uber powerful women in mafia shows or Marvel and think that's kind of dumb because a man should be even stronger like real life. And how many mafia families in history are lead by women? So lets not get too crazy here. In one of those Robocop movies, there's a 10 year old kid who is a major villain. Ya, anything can happen in a sci fi movie, but it's kind inane to have a kid be an evil boss like he's Al Capone.

3. A lot of women and DEI stuff came in bucketloads the past 5 years. Probably due to Floyd influence where every company and pro sports league suddenly amped up politics that year together. Gaming would surely be one to join in too. So it's oversaturation. Nobody cared that normal mom looking Sigourney Weaver kicked ass in Alien movies, or dolled up Kate Beckinsale slashed vampires, or Linda Hamilton kills Terminators. It's just fun action movies with no politics in it. Sofia is a great character because she's psycho, dont know what to believe or expect and no politics.

 

[Arsic]

This has no right being this good.

I would’ve thought this show would be total shit because who wanted a penguin show?

Turns out this is some of the best story telling for tv in a hot minute.

Sofia has a better villain back story than any villain in tv and movies we’ve had yet. So well fleshed out. Reminds me of magneto where you can’t hate that she’s evil now after what she was subjected to.

 

[Revolutionary]

So apparently the reason John Torturro didn't return as Carmine Falcone wasn't because of "scheduling conflicts" as previous reported, but because the show is too violent against women?

Meanwhile, he strangles a woman to death in The Batman and tries to kill his own daughter. Also the showrunner is a woman, and the writing and directing credits have women as well.


He could have just left it at "I did what I wanted to with the role" and no one would have made a fuss. But when you make weird statements like this... people are going to raise their eyebrows.

But whatever, Mark Strong effortlessly slipped into the role so it's not a big loss IMO

 

[March Climber]

So apparently the reason John Torturro didn't return as Carmine Falcone wasn't because of "scheduling conflicts" as previous reported, but because the show is too violent against women?

Meanwhile, he strangles a woman to death in The Batman and tries to kill his own daughter. Also the showrunner is a woman, and the writing and directing credits have women as well.


He could have just left it at "I did what I wanted to with the role" and no one would have made a fuss. But when you make weird statements like this... people are going to raise their eyebrows.

But whatever, Mark Strong effortlessly slipped into the role so it's not a big loss IMO

Another reason why recasting is much better than removing an entire character.

 

[IntentionalPun]

He probably didn’t like the reveal that the character was actually a serial killer. Kind of silly considering he wasn’t exactly a saint towards women in The Batman but people’s attitudes can also change.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

Maaannnn eps 5 when Oz rediscovers his old haunt….

I was so pumped to see full on penguin.


Also, people have noticed the hidden penguin silhouette in the logo right?

 

[FunkMiller]

So apparently the reason John Torturro didn't return as Carmine Falcone wasn't because of "scheduling conflicts" as previous reported, but because the show is too violent against women?

Meanwhile, he strangles a woman to death in The Batman and tries to kill his own daughter. Also the showrunner is a woman, and the writing and directing credits have women as well.


He could have just left it at "I did what I wanted to with the role" and no one would have made a fuss. But when you make weird statements like this... people are going to raise their eyebrows.

But whatever, Mark Strong effortlessly slipped into the role so it's not a big loss IMO

He’s one of two things:

Lying. And it was probably actually about money.

An absolute fanny. It’s called acting, you twat.

 

[Zephyranthes]

Just finished episode 7. Show continues to be really good, but I'm really perplexed about the creative choice regarding

Spoiler: Major Spoilers

Sal's death. I genuinely don't understand how having him randomly die of a heart attack makes any sense at all from a storytelling standpoint. Unless I missed something, there was no foreshadowing for it....he never showed any sign of heart trouble previously. I get that he had to go at some point to set up the final showdown between Oz and Sofia, but he was one of the most important characters on the show....seemed deserving of a demise that had more of a buildup.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Shit forgot about Penguin. Missed last week's episode and today's. Will watch them this week.

 

[Bulletzen72]

Just finished episode 7. Show continues to be really good, but I'm really perplexed about the creative choice regarding

Spoiler

Sal's death. I genuinely don't understand how having him randomly die of a heart attack makes any sense at all from a storytelling standpoint. Unless I missed something, there was no foreshadowing for it....he never showed any sign of heart trouble previously. I get that he had to go at some point to set up the final showdown between Oz and Sofia, but he was one of the most important characters on the show....seemed deserving of a demise that had more of a buildup.

Spoiler

I could be mistaken but wasn't there some scenes of him taking pills/medication in previous episodes? I assumed it was heart medication.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Just finished episode 7. Show continues to be really good, but I'm really perplexed about the creative choice regarding

Spoiler: Major Spoilers

Sal's death. I genuinely don't understand how having him randomly die of a heart attack makes any sense at all from a storytelling standpoint. Unless I missed something, there was no foreshadowing for it....he never showed any sign of heart trouble previously. I get that he had to go at some point to set up the final showdown between Oz and Sofia, but he was one of the most important characters on the show....seemed deserving of a demise that had more of a buildup.

I think it’s more about Penguin taking credit for things he didn’t do. The episode also revealed him not taking credit for something he did in fact do. He’s a slimy fuck lol

Honestly Sal was a minor character appearing on screen probably 15 total minutes. He’s also an old man and I think in one of the last couple of episodes there’s an exchange with Sofia about his health? I remember something when he was cooking or something. Either way he’s old as fuck lol

 

[March Climber]

I think it’s more about Penguin taking credit for things he didn’t do. The episode also revealed him not taking credit for something he did in fact do. He’s a slimy fuck lol

Honestly Sal was a minor character appearing on screen probably 15 total minutes. He’s also an old man and I think in one of the last couple of episodes there’s an exchange with Sofia about his health? I remember something when he was cooking or something. Either way he’s old as fuck lol

That’s how I took it. Even though there might have been subtle hints in past episodes, the big moment in question was more about Penguin than Sal.

Penguin continuing to yell and not accept the outcome even though the situation was resolved, just really makes you understand his character even further.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just finished episode 7. Show continues to be really good, but I'm really perplexed about the creative choice regarding

Spoiler: Major Spoilers

Sal's death. I genuinely don't understand how having him randomly die of a heart attack makes any sense at all from a storytelling standpoint. Unless I missed something, there was no foreshadowing for it....he never showed any sign of heart trouble previously. I get that he had to go at some point to set up the final showdown between Oz and Sofia, but he was one of the most important characters on the show....seemed deserving of a demise that had more of a buildup.

Oz feels like he’s been denied what’s owed to him this entire show. This was another example of that.

Though if they ever do Harvey now, it’ll have to change his origin.

 

[Revolutionary]

Another great episode but the finale of this episode unfortunately crossed that "where is Batman?" line. The Falcones being wiped out via a carbon monoxide "accident"? Sure, it's understandable why Bats wouldn't follow up on that... but the corner of a city block just imploded in a war between gangsters, and some innocents were seemingly caught up in the blast. Trust me, I don't want Bats to show up in this show, but I'm having a hard time believing he could ignore something as significant as that, especially after what happened at the end of The Batman.

 

[Zephyranthes]

Another great episode but the finale of this episode unfortunately crossed that "where is Batman?" line. The Falcones being wiped out via a carbon monoxide "accident"? Sure, it's understandable why Bats wouldn't follow up on that... but the corner of a city block just imploded in a war between gangsters, and some innocents were seemingly caught up in the blast. Trust me, I don't want Bats to show up in this show, but I'm having a hard time believing he could ignore something as significant as that, especially after what happened at the end of The Batman.

Unfortunately the showrunner has made her stance pretty clear that she doesn't want the show to be seen as a comic spinoff (which I think being kind of silly considering that it's literally called "The Penguin"), so I doubt we'll be seeing Bats, but I do agree that the conflict has reached a point where his absence seems very strange.

 

[Vyse]

Unfortunately the showrunner has made her stance pretty clear that she doesn't want the show to be seen as a comic spinoff (which I think being kind of silly considering that it's literally called "The Penguin"), so I doubt we'll be seeing Bats, but I do agree that the conflict has reached a point where his absence seems very strange.

It will end up that he was out of Gotham at the time. Didn’t he ride off with Selina at the end of Batman?

 

[Revolutionary]

It will end up that he was out of Gotham at the time. Didn’t he ride off with Selina at the end of Batman?

No, they both went their separate ways. Catwoman says she'll be going to Bludhaven while Bats stays behind to protect Gotham.

 

[Roufianos]

I'm loving the show but some parts of the last episode were stupid. Oz didn't suspect a bomb? Maroni thought he could storm the tunnels with 5 people and get everyone on side? Been terrific writing otherwise so these stood out.

 

[DarkBatman]

It will end up that he was out of Gotham at the time. Didn’t he ride off with Selina at the end of Batman?

No, they both went their separate ways. Catwoman says she'll be going to Bludhaven while Bats stays behind to protect Gotham.

I strongly suspect that THE BATMAN II will explain his absence. Maybe the events of THE PENGUIN and the sequel will also overlap.

 

[FunkMiller]

Another great episode but the finale of this episode unfortunately crossed that "where is Batman?" line. The Falcones being wiped out via a carbon monoxide "accident"? Sure, it's understandable why Bats wouldn't follow up on that... but the corner of a city block just imploded in a war between gangsters, and some innocents were seemingly caught up in the blast. Trust me, I don't want Bats to show up in this show, but I'm having a hard time believing he could ignore something as significant as that, especially after what happened at the end of The Batman.

It's been annoying me since episode one to be honest. Okay, he doesn't have to be in it, but to not even mention what Batman has been up to to stop him interfering is fucking stupid. And yeah, massive explosions in the middle of the city would definitely get his attention. The only major misstep this show has taken.

 

[RavenSan]

I strongly suspect that THE BATMAN II will explain his absence. Maybe the events of THE PENGUIN and the sequel will also overlap.

re overlapping -- I don't know about that, wouldn't the timeline of the show only be a few weeks or a month after the Riddler attack? Seems like they'd want a little more distance for a sequel than that, to let Batman recover, let him train some more, etc.

I feel like we'll still get a cameo of him at some point -- or at least some allusion to him. The bat signal or whatever in the sky. They will acknowledge him in some capacity before the show ends.

 

[March Climber]

I strongly suspect that THE BATMAN II will explain his absence. Maybe the events of THE PENGUIN and the sequel will also overlap.

The second movie might also have to tackle the very difficult subject of humanized and empathetic criminals.

It could come across way different when Batman is beating a man half to death who was simply a bliss lab worker trying to earn enough money for his family to survive.

With really good writing we could end up with a much different, much more grounded Batman story that tackles this stuff well and shakes Bruce’s morality code/foundation.

 

[Mossybrew]

I feel like the show lost a bit of steam in the second half of the season but I'm still looking forward to seeing how they wrap this up.

 

[Revolutionary]

I strongly suspect that THE BATMAN II will explain his absence. Maybe the events of THE PENGUIN and the sequel will also overlap.

The Batman is heavily inspired by New 52's Zero Year, and the rumors are that the second movie will be about The Court of Owls, so I suppose it's possible that they've already captured him after the events of the first movie. But it seems a bit too soon for that - as another poster mentioned, it would probably be smarter to have more distance between the two movies.

Obviously, it's better to just wait and see how they handle it in the final episode, but ya know... it's a discussion board and it's fun to speculate.

 

[BadBurger]

Recent ep's spoilers

Spoiler

Victor finally punching his card.

And this psyco sexual back story to an already fucked up Oz.

The best TV show since Andor.

You get away clean?

Don't look down. Meet me here. You protected those you care about. You're a strong kid.

It gets easier.

Dump those clothes. You're gonna be a bottle of water tomorrow.

These writers def grew up in a bad neighborhood.