ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
A conglomerate have difficulty manufacturing disk drives. Please understand
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The PS5 disc drive stock situation is embarrassing
- Thread starter Certinty
- Start date
A conglomerate have difficulty manufacturing disk drives. Please understand
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Why are you pretending like they're not manufacturing disc drives as if their primary product on the market wasn't the PS5 Standard version that comes with a disc drive.
What you're asking them to do is a bit different which is to surge production to account for short term demand, which is never a great idea. There is a cost involved in doing so and it's not something you can spin up overnight anyways.
They almost certainly surged supply ahead of the release of the PS5 Pro. It was readily available for sometime and it was discussed at length here and people talked about the demand and that these things were starting to sell out. People at the time brushed it off. So if you missed your window it sucks for you, but they'll come back in stock fairly soon.
Sony though, is going to prioritize PS5 standard editions getting disc drives for the holidays.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Discs and disc drives manufacturing plants are closing all the time. There are only singular plants left from what I remember reading somewhere.
Besides, these disc eating bluray drives are complicated mechanisms. not to mention drm and other stuff. So I doubt it's that cheap
ReBurn
Gold Member
Slot loading drives aren't complicated mechanisms. They have been around for decades and are relatively simple mechanisms consisting of some rubberized rollers, plastic guide and retaining arms, springs, and a small electric motor. The laser is mounted onto rails and is driven by a motor, much like they have been since optical media began.
Sony manufactures and sells optical disk archival systems meant to store up to 2.9 Petabytes of data. They are heavily invested in optical disc storage in several areas.
If Sony wanted to bring more drives to market they would be doing it. It isn't because it's hard or expensive. It's because they either don't see demand or they want to influence consumer behavior.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Or something less nefarious which I've already mentioned is that they're not going to change their production line to meet short term demand.
From the beginning of the creation of a drive, how long do you think until it makes it to retail shelves?
You're probably looking at 60-90 days.
You mass produce a large number of drives and some of those drives are slated specifically for PS5 as I mentioned above.
After being created, they need to be audited for quality control, and they need to be packaged.
Most of these devices generally sit in Sony warehouses waiting for wholesale agreements. Now that the drives are back ordered, these orders to refill are placed in advance, so they're not going to sit long, but they still have to be shipped and likely by boat. Once delivered by boat they end up in docks, where they are processed to go to distribution chains still belonging to Sony. From there they get shipped via truck to retail hubs and then the retail hubs distribute them to their individual local stores a mix of air and truck and make an allotment available for online order.
Each step in the process is days if not weeks.
This is especially true when distribution channels are slammed with other products also needed to go out for the holidays.
The simplicity in which you guys think is staggering. Your agenda wants you to boil it down to corporation bad/greedy. When in reality it usually comes down to resources, timing, and logistics, both internal and external.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
You would be better off making the argument that Sony should have prepared a disc SKU model, but even that is a lazy argument as it ignores marketing facts of sticker shock at 750.
Anyone who knows anything knows that once your product starts getting into premium pricing you're better off in many cases to start to provide optionality rather than pushing people away.
The question is how many people who would have bought at 700 will be turned off at 750 versus how many people will not buy it at 700 and buy the disc drive separately.
And for those who think that Sony should have just had more stock of disc drives available ignore the reality of scalping as well as the difficulty around analyzing sales in advance.
So many of you should be intimately familiar with that idea given that so many of you assumed the PS5 Pro would be DOA and worse have tried to do everything in their power to make that come true.
Let's say you're going to ship 1 million PS5s and you know based on metric data that only 20-25% of your consumer base are using the disc drive on a regular basis. So let's say you ship 150K disc drives for launch on top of the existing retail market of 50-100K disc drives. You hope to sell 1 million units, but you're not sure, so you're certainly not going to drop 300K disc drives. Now let's say scalpers buy internationally 15K disc drives. You get the situation you see now, where disc drives are sold out even with a surge of drives to accommodate based on metrics, but let's also say that the fist million PS5 Pros sell out faster than you think AND the demand for disc drives is higher than the metrics suggest they should be AND you have to deal with scalpers.
This stuff is a lot more difficult/complex than you guys think it is.
At the end of the day, my guess is distribution channels are slammed, production cycles are largely set in stone, and so we're not going to get a quick update in stock, but that it will be remedied relatively quickly.
Anyone who knows anything knows that once your product starts getting into premium pricing you're better off in many cases to start to provide optionality rather than pushing people away.
The question is how many people who would have bought at 700 will be turned off at 750 versus how many people will not buy it at 700 and buy the disc drive separately.
And for those who think that Sony should have just had more stock of disc drives available ignore the reality of scalping as well as the difficulty around analyzing sales in advance.
So many of you should be intimately familiar with that idea given that so many of you assumed the PS5 Pro would be DOA and worse have tried to do everything in their power to make that come true.
Let's say you're going to ship 1 million PS5s and you know based on metric data that only 20-25% of your consumer base are using the disc drive on a regular basis. So let's say you ship 150K disc drives for launch on top of the existing retail market of 50-100K disc drives. You hope to sell 1 million units, but you're not sure, so you're certainly not going to drop 300K disc drives. Now let's say scalpers buy internationally 15K disc drives. You get the situation you see now, where disc drives are sold out even with a surge of drives to accommodate based on metrics, but let's also say that the fist million PS5 Pros sell out faster than you think AND the demand for disc drives is higher than the metrics suggest they should be AND you have to deal with scalpers.
This stuff is a lot more difficult/complex than you guys think it is.
At the end of the day, my guess is distribution channels are slammed, production cycles are largely set in stone, and so we're not going to get a quick update in stock, but that it will be remedied relatively quickly.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Lol at hardcore Sony Defense. You go to bat for that poor multi-billion Corpo and should get paid. Where is Herman when you need him?!
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Lol at hardcore Sony Defense. You go to bat for that poor multi-billion Corpo and should get paid. Where is Herman when you need him?!
Super lazy response. Name one thing I said that wasn't true. It isn't about defending Sony, it's just pointing out reality.
Sony was prepared. They're literally having a monster quarter. The consumers who were caught with their pants down were the consumers who convinced themselves that they weren't going to buy the PS5 Pro only to turn around and want one at launch because of fomo or feeling like a 2nd class gamer.
Difficult to gauge the real demand of a system let alone accessories to it. People on this forum who follow gaming closely were CONVINCED that it was DOA when the price was announced and that it was announced without the disc drive.
Many people who wanted the PS5 Pro and the disc drive, pre-ordered the console and bought the disc drive in advance. It wasn't difficult to do. Others waited, and they'll continue to wait a bit longer. It's just life man.
You've been in every PS5 Pro thread on this forum trying to downplay it from one angle or another. It's not worth it to Sony should have made more disc drives... which is it?
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
No company is prepared for scalpers. Thats why shortages like this exist. You think Sony doesn’t want to make money? Lmao
AmuroChan
Member
If they want to make money, manufacture more 30th Anniversary PS5 Pros. I'm sitting here ready to hand them $1000 and they're like nah we're just going to make 12,000 of these that will sell out in a matter of minutes.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
IMO the whole problem is because ps5 pro is TOO CHEAP.
They made it only 700$ which is in the margins for casuals. Obtainable but expensive.
Meanwhile for enthusiasts, 700$ is not that much, so getting a drive for it is a no brainer.
If it was more expensive, let's say 900$ or 1200$ or whatever... casuals wouldn't even think about it and it would be left for enthusiast.
Not saying the performance gain would be worth it with higher prices but the class divide would be clear.
Now both groups are angry. it's expensive for casuals and not powerful enough for enthusiasts
Bojji
Member
Sony has all the data, how many consumers have consoles with disc drives (we know it's 80%), how many of those buy games on discs vs digital etc.
It's not worth it, at least not now. There is long time between now and PS6 and I'm sure I will get Pro at some point.
What I don't get is why you need to defend their every anti consumers move or just plain stupidity. It's just another corporation that doesn't give a fuck about you, they only care about money. While consumers should only care about value of their products, many people don't see that currently with pro. Disc drive situation makes it even worse.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
Yeah, it’s those pesky unprepared consumers. And the evil scalpers outplaying poor Sony.
Same Sony somehow being able to make a crap load of actual Pro consoles that are in every store, but the disk drive is an issue.
Sony made the console $700.
Sony decided not to have Drive bundle.
Sony didn’t manufacture enough drives.
This is all customers fault as they should have had a Project Plan ready to kick off into gear vs you know, going to BestBuy and buying the damn thing.
Folks, stop defending giant corporations when they fuck over customers. Hell, just stop defending them period. They aren’t your friends.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I bought the PS5 standard at launch because I couldn't find a digital model. I never used my disc drive. Sony has metrics on what percentage of people are using their disc drive and how often they use it. All of these would go into a decision of not releasing a pro model with the disc drive bundled.
I think people are often confused because so many people bought the OG PS5 or are still buying the slim disc version over the slim digital. At 50 dollars it simply because a value proposition compared to when it was 100 dollars cheaper. The same is going to be true of the PS5 Pro and the PS5 standard.
You might be on the attack, but I'm not on defense. I'm just telling your argument is lazy and pointing out your clear bias.
I have plenty of criticism for Sony and the PS5 Pro in particular.
- Don't like that they didn't update the HDMI controller to deliver 4:4:4
- Don't like that they didn't integrate PS Link on the mobo
- Don't like that boost mode is giving between 30-35% instead of 45%
- Think the cheap plastic legs on the Pro is really poor for a premium product
- Think they could have advertised bigger games coming to the PS5 Pro and that would be Pro enhanced, including upcoming first party games
- Think they could have ensured their entire first party lineup was Pro enhanced as well as major 3rd party exclusives
See above.
You think scalpers outplayed Sony? No they outplayed you. Sony got their money and retailers got their money. How were they outplayed?
The only ones hurting are people who want the PS5 Pro and don't have a disc drive but want one. And yes, they could have been better prepared.
AmuroChan
Member
The problem is most people don't care. They're either tribalistic when it comes to brand loyalty or have vested interests in these companies financially.
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Rocco Schiavone
Member
The best thing is that in my country they couldn't even provide one fucking drive for release and here dumb asses are telling us that it's the customers fault.
How the hell do you release a console with an optional drive and you don't provide any disc drive for launch???
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Mibu no ookami
Banned
The best thing is that in my country they couldn't even provide one fucking drive for release and here dumb asses are telling us that it's the customers fault.
How the hell do you release a console with an optional drive and you don't provide any disc for launch???
You were too busy complaining about how much the price was with a disc drive. You waited two weeks until after people were saying it was selling out to even pre-order your system.
I get that it sucks that you want a drive and it's unavailable at retail, but I'm sure you'll be okay getting a drive in December, January, or February.
Sleepwalker
Member
Ill get the pro, maybe, eventually. When I can buy a disc drive to go with it without having to get alerts from bots and be ready to order at any second.
if that never happens then thats $800 more in my pocket and not in Sony's. Im not too bothered anyway.
if that never happens then thats $800 more in my pocket and not in Sony's. Im not too bothered anyway.
Bojji
Member
You focus on some minor things. Elephant in the room is price + lack of disc drive. Cherry on top is lack of those optional disc drives in stores. SKU with disc drive would solve this issue.
I can buy this console at any point, but I can't by disc drive so game I currently play on PS5 (metaphor) would become useless to me.
Blast from the past, Sony really liked physical games ten years ago (when MS tried to fuck them up with online DRM):
saintjules
Gold Member
Perfect response to the situation.
The drives were available for some time. And the rumors even suggested no disc drive.
At worst you could have bought it and just return it if the no disc drive scenario was a farce.
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Still nobody mentioning why the "conglomerate" had the same stock issues with a charging dock at PS5 launch. That's just some damn cables wrapped in plastic to charge your controller. People don't invent a conspiracy for that one. Just that they sold out quick and they were manufacturing them slower than people were buying them up.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
You focus on some minor things. Elephant in the room is price + lack of disc drive. Cherry on top is lack of those optional disc drives in stores. SKU with disc drive would solve this issue.
I can buy this console at any point, but I can't by disc drive so game I currently play on PS5 (metaphor) would become useless to me.
Blast from the past, Sony really liked physical games ten years ago (when MS tried to fuck them up with online DRM):
Elephant in the room is price only if you're poor. The real conversation is about value.
Ask yourself how I was able to predict the price of the PS5 Pro exactly. It's because the price structure makes sense.
If the PS5 Digital is 450 and you add an extra terabyte of storage that's market value 550 at least. Again, Sony has metrics on how many core fans upgrade their storage. For 50 dollars extra you're getting a beefier GPU, for another 50 dollars you're getting some additional CPU and memory, and improved ray tracing, and for another 50 you're getting PSSR.
These are all solid values and I don't think anyone would give up on any one element of the PS5 Pro for 50 dollars.
It also doesn't lack a disc drive. The disc drive is optional, which is how most of us would rather it be. I wouldn't have wanted to be stuck at 750 or higher just for the disc drive that I never use.
Blast from the past huh? You clearly don't realize that things change. You have to ask yourself at what point does a feature become a burden and not a value add. Game consoles used to come with two controllers, they didn't use to come with hard drives or network adapters, they didn't come with wifi adapters. People complained when disc required memory cards and pushed for games to remain on cartridges.
I own a 4K bluray player. I've seen the industry move entirely to streaming. There are still things I'll buy on disc and there are things I'll keep to streaming. I spent 540 dollars on my 4K bluray player and I've spent probably thousands on a 4K bluray collection.
With the exception of Cyberpunk that I bought for 10 dollars but never ended up playing (I played the trial digitally for a couple hours after the next gen patch) I haven't purchased a physical game since 2016.
The market has changed and Sony has changed with it. The market always changes.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
The PSVR2 PC Adapter sold out. So did the PS Portal. They don't sell PSVR Sense controllers separately.
Sony manufacturers more hardware than anyone else in the gaming industry. The idea that they can surge on specific items is unfounded.
Ignore the PlayStation consoles themselves and they're manufacturing controllers, headphones, earbudes, PSVR2, at a time they owned a company manufacturing storage drives, controller chargers, psvr2 controller chargers, and if you want to get into it further, inzone headsets, and monitors, console covers for 5 different models of PS5, disc drive attachments, vertical stands, PS Portal, pro controller, media remote, camera... and they're still making DS4s...
Bojji
Member
Currently Pro lacks things that were with my PS5: vertical stand and disc drive so you can add "-" to that in value.
You have interesting way to measure cost of those things (50$ for PSSR...) but anyway, Reality is much simpler than that: they just wanted to make as much profit as possible on every unit, this thing doesn't look "premium" at all.
Market has changed but in a way that consumers have zero rights when it comes to digital stuff, so it's for the worse. Prices are higher etc.
Physical games are the biggest advantage consoles have over PC.
Exactly, yet nobody can come up with a conspiracy why they were sold out of charging docks and they would come into stock and sell out almost immediately with scalpers when the parts for that are far simpler for the "conglomerate" to manufacture. people can't invent a conspiracy theory for it:
Why are the PS5 charging stations all out of stock?
I'm trying to get my hands on the official PS5 charging station https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08H95HBZ8/ And they are out of stock everywhere. The PS5 i can understand the supply problems with yields but the charging station? Why can't they ship more of these simple devices? People are selling...
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Sure and if you're poor you can squabble over 30 dollars. I lay my PS5 flat and always have, but if I wanted to put it vertically I would buy a stand without complaining.
Is a vertical stand and disc drive worth 110 dollars to me? No. They're both worthless. So yes, I'm glad sony left them out of the ps5 pro as opposed to increasing the price for all of us.
I'm not measuring the cost, I'm giving a breakdown of the price difference between a PS5 Digital and a PS5 Pro. I think the GPU is worth more than 50 dollars. Same with PSSR. These are the premium things that I actually care about.
Costs go up for companies and those costs are passed down to consumers. You really seem to be struggling financially.
Gaming has resisted inflation better than most industries. To complain about cost increases in gaming is kind of laughable.
Some SNES games used to cost 70 bucks back in the 90s.
The PS1 cost adjusted for inflation was 632 dollars and did not come with memory cards. Just one memory card adjusted for inflation brings it to 674. No option at all to place it vertically, multitap needed for games that were more than 2 player.
Physical games are maybe something that people focus on who need to buy their games beyond digital discounting and want to be able to trade their games in. I prefer the digital future of being able to play your games enhanced on future consoles without having to transport or store games locally. It's what most consumers want.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Exactly, yet nobody can come up with a conspiracy why they were sold out of charging docks and they would come into stock and sell out almost immediately with scalpers when the parts for that are far simpler for the "conglomerate" to manufacture. people can't invent a conspiracy theory for it:
Why are the PS5 charging stations all out of stock?
I'm trying to get my hands on the official PS5 charging station https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08H95HBZ8/ And they are out of stock everywhere. The PS5 i can understand the supply problems with yields but the charging station? Why can't they ship more of these simple devices? People are selling...www.neogaf.com
Conspiracy to get you to buy more controllers so that they're always charged when you want it.
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Are you dumb or something?? How the hell I'm supposed two know that Sony cannot meet their delivery dates??? I ordered on the end of september. Retailer told me that the drives will be delivered early november. Sony cannot meet the delivery dates so I'm getting my drive(promised) sometime early december.
Do you think I don't have any other problems? In addition to family and work, I have even more important problems than making sure that such bunglers can deliver enough drives for the launch.
LavitzSlambert
Member
Playstation consoles without discs have no purpose, might as well go full PC in that case.
Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
If only everyone would have LISTENED to gaf WEEKS AGO and bought a disc drive on the day* pro was announced...
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ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
You focus on some minor things. Elephant in the room is price + lack of disc drive. Cherry on top is lack of those optional disc drives in stores. SKU with disc drive would solve this issue.
I can buy this console at any point, but I can't by disc drive so game I currently play on PS5 (metaphor) would become useless to me.
Blast from the past, Sony really liked physical games ten years ago (when MS tried to fuck them up with online DRM):
Time's changed. Sony changed.
There is a reason why Sony dropped PS5 Pro with a disc drive. There is a reason why Sony is calling it "PS5 Pro" and not "PS5 Pro Digital". They want to normalize disk-less as the standard.
Klosshufvud
Member
Literally every post you've made on NeoGaf is sucking Sony's dick, while doing passive aggressive laugh emojis to anyone shitting on your narrative. It's funny the lengths your mental gymnastics take you.
SweetTooth
Gold Member
True I was reading that thinking...what a drama queen, the last paragrah is just the icing on the cake
Bojji
Member
I'm so poor that I bought 4070ti super for 3600PLN (~800 Euro) 1.5 months ago, that's the same price as Pro.
TO ME, this GPU upgrade is more logical than new Sony console, not to mention that I sold 3080ti for 2000PLN (460 Euro).
That's the thing, being poor or not being poor - life is very expensive almost everywhere in the world. Compared to food and housing, gaming is a luxury - you can live without it. I always sell old crap that I don't have use for it anymore, I had dozens of consoles and GPUs, all of them were sold. Same is true for games, once I complete single player game there is no further use for it to me - why not sold it and have half of money (or so) for the next game?
Gaming is super expensive, more and more expensive and you tell me that it was resistant to inflation? Look at prices of PS Plus, they didn't increase prices of AAA games but they sure will on PS6.
Pretty much, I used to be big PS fan, Sony fanboy. But they are just another soulless corporation right now, they don't give a fuck about their consumers any more.
What SP games are announced for PS5? Ghost of Yotei and what? Their SP games were always among the best and the main think keeping me up in their ecosystem but it seems they lost interest.
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Salty Pickle
Member
Blocking DS4 for Ps5 games was actually a good thing since it got rid of a LOT of M&K cheaters using xims.
I just linked you to a post where I was annoyed that they couldn't manufacture a simple device like the charging station. Just because I disagree with Arthands and Bojjis conspiracy (people who come into these threads and are known to be sucking some other dick?) with an example of where they couldn't manufacture some other PS product fast enough (was out of stock from Nov till March) doesn't mean I'm "sucking sonys dick". I'm just giving you logical examples of "the conglomerate" unable to meet demand.
I guess ad hominem is a good fallback when you can't address the point though. I still remember that thread where you were sucking Series S' dick about some "fish game dev" that wanted to drop parity clause between series S and X and you were arguing with me, how'd that work out for you?
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Lord Malachite
Member
This thread assumes it's a problem Sony has any urgency to correct. There are now three separate PS5 SKUs on the market and only one of them comes with a disc drive. The less PS gamers that have a disc drive, the more likely they are to purchase digital games. Digital games which can't be resold in most of the world. It's a huge win for them to keep this situation going.
You can readily find PS5 disc drives on eBay. You will easily pay anywhere from $50 to $120 over the $80 MSRP. If you want one, you can get one, but you'll be gouged. Sony doesn't particularly care as they've already made their money off of those drives.
This is a crummy situation for gamers to be in. Hell, I'm a PlayStation only gamer and I think this is scummy. But it was inevitable the moment they launched the PS5 Pro without a disc drive. The add-on disc drive that was released with the Slim redesign of the PS5 was always a niche product, because you could still buy a disc version of the PS5. Many stores didn't carry the add-on. Dedicated game stores carried it but didn't keep more than a handful in stock. The release of the PS5 Pro without a disc drive SKU meant that demand has gotten absurdly high while supply hasn't even attempted to keep up.
Until this situation starts to negatively impact actual hardware sales of the PS5, I wouldn't expect Sony to take any great strides to right the ship. They'll continue to be hard to find and it will come down to whether you're willing to pay scalper prices, be poised over etail sites hoping to pounce on a restock , or make the rounds of retail stores hoping you get lucky. Or just do without altogether and go digital only. The list of reasons Sony has to care about this is pretty insignificant, so it sucks to be us.
You can readily find PS5 disc drives on eBay. You will easily pay anywhere from $50 to $120 over the $80 MSRP. If you want one, you can get one, but you'll be gouged. Sony doesn't particularly care as they've already made their money off of those drives.
This is a crummy situation for gamers to be in. Hell, I'm a PlayStation only gamer and I think this is scummy. But it was inevitable the moment they launched the PS5 Pro without a disc drive. The add-on disc drive that was released with the Slim redesign of the PS5 was always a niche product, because you could still buy a disc version of the PS5. Many stores didn't carry the add-on. Dedicated game stores carried it but didn't keep more than a handful in stock. The release of the PS5 Pro without a disc drive SKU meant that demand has gotten absurdly high while supply hasn't even attempted to keep up.
Until this situation starts to negatively impact actual hardware sales of the PS5, I wouldn't expect Sony to take any great strides to right the ship. They'll continue to be hard to find and it will come down to whether you're willing to pay scalper prices, be poised over etail sites hoping to pounce on a restock , or make the rounds of retail stores hoping you get lucky. Or just do without altogether and go digital only. The list of reasons Sony has to care about this is pretty insignificant, so it sucks to be us.
Madserb2023
Member
I think Sony manufactured this shortage. There is no way they didn't see this coming. They even make the drives, so they absolutely could have made millions prior to the launch of the PS5 Pro. This is definitely a move to force people to go digital. I buy physical literally out of necessity because unless I use CDkeys I can't afford most games now. I just bought Rebirth for £25. I even trader some old games in and because I had a voucher with CEX I had Returnal for 10p. This is not possible with digital.
Klosshufvud
Member
Yup, butthurt Playstation warrior to the end. I have no time entertaining fools like you. I own all these devices (including two PS5s). I don't need to prove shit to you.
Nobody was asking you to
Shifty1897
Member
This is pretty wild. There are PS5 pros just sitting on the shelf at my local Walmart, but there isn't a disc drive for sale at retail price within a hundred miles of here. I was literally going to buy a Pro today but I'm not bothering until I get a disc drive first.
Bojji
Member
You could have bought one 6 months ago, or when Slim launched in 2023 just to be sure! /s
Radical_3d
Member
Curious. On the PS direct of Spain there are existences since a few days ago. And my package says it comes from the BeNeLux.
saintjules
Gold Member
You could have bought one 6 months ago, or when Slim launched in 2023 just to be sure! /s
Yeah I don't get it. Readily available. Even just before the reveal the rumors were saying no drive. I don't give any sympathy.
Bojji
Member
No disc drives the same day pro was announced here...
DaleinCalgary
Member
How about toilets
Bojji
Member
That's cute. Toilets are fine, thank you.
Disc drive is also not available in countries with world class toilets.