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[Lagspike_exe]

PS5's TSMC 7 nm process node to PS5 Pro's TSMC N4P (5nm++ / 4nm hybrid) process node is a "half-gen" jump.

TSMC Announces N4P Process, a Refined N4 Chip Node

Tangible Power/Performance/Area improvements over N4 and a focus on node transition costs.

www.tomshardware.com

TSMC does say that N4P will bring tangible improvements over N5, though, and they provide more data for that comparison than against N4, which is limited to performance estimates. For example, compared to N5, N4P will deliver an 11% performance boost, a 22% improvement in power efficiency, and a 6% improvement in transistor density​

PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA 4.

PS5 Pro GPU lacks RDNA 3 CU's WMMA double FP32 throughput since RX 9600 XT (RDNA 4, 36 CU) was able to rival PS5 Pro's 60 CU GPU (RDNA 2 with improvements).

Completely false. 7nm -> 5nm is a full generation jump. 5nm to "4nm" is optimization.

 

[FalconPunch]

Most of the issues in Jedi Survivor had been sorted out, and it is one of better PSSR implementation now (I'd say it's even comparable to DLSS 3.5), also I spent 300+ hours on Dragon's Dogma 2 on PS5 PRO and its PROS far outweigh CONS. I played the game on balanced mode with RT off, and it was pretty much comprehensive 4K 60 experience and is the best DD2 experience available on console, as the game runs 40~50fps with very blurry IQ on base PS5 and even worse on XSX. Also 'disaster' is a bit of an overstatement even for the UE5 games, because PSSR significantly boasts image clarity in moving scenes even in the UE5 games, a feature that's overlooked by likes of DF. These comparison shots are from Alan Wake 2.

There's a reason why devs keep using PSSR on UE5.

Also Black Myth Wukong being an UE5 game with Lumen, is one of the best PSSR implementation ever.

base ps5

ps5 pro


Also people never talk about the artifacts that PSSR actually REMOVES like the FSR fizzle and ghosting.

This is what AVATAR looks like on PS5 PRO vs XSX (which is basically the same as base PS5)

and people like you call it a 'disaster' after watching couple of DF videos.

Firstly, I gotta appreciate your post M MazingerDUDE . I appreciate it when people bring the receipts.

These specific examples look better than the base ps5. There are other examples where PSSRs cons less palatable compared to the base console.

The problem is that when paying for a premium device, I shouldn't have to deal with any "cons". It shouldn't be better than the base in one way and worse in another way.

This is the current problem with the ps5 pro. Once PSSR2 comes out, if it lives up to the hype, then obviously things will need to be reevaluated.

As it stands right now, the first year and a half has been a disaster for a pro product to me. The net of the disappointment led to me purchasing a 5090 and upgrading my pc.

This is something that I never pursued with the PS4 Pro because it was simply a significantly better than the base in almost every instance.

 

[Tqaulity]

The problem is that when paying for a premium device, I shouldn't have to deal with any "cons". It shouldn't be better than the base in one way and worse in another way.

STOP IT. That's ridiculous. Nothing in this world and definitely not in the gaming space is a "free lunch" without cons. You want to spent $4000+ on that 5080/5090 PC rig right? So you shouldn't have to deal with the fact that PC games have stuttering, inconsistent performance, game crashes, driver issues, OS issues. 5080s were literally broken for the $1000+ at launch with deactivated cores, clock limitations, crashes, and monitor incompatibilities etc (yeah I'm taking from experience as I'm still waiting on my GPU replacement). DLSS is nowhere near perfect as it's issues have been well documented including THE SAME FOLIAGE SHIMMER THAT SOME PSSR GAMES SUFFER FROM after 7+ years of iterating.

If people can spend thousands on those rigs with ALL of the "cons" and issues that come with it, then you can spend $700 and deal with a select few games that have poor integrations of PSSR. The majority of games look and run well beyond their base PS5 counterpart. Just what do you define as a "premium" product? And why would a $700 device be held to a higher standard than one costing thousands?!

 

[FalconPunch]

STOP IT. That's ridiculous. Nothing in this world and definitely not in the gaming space is a "free lunch" without cons. You want to spent $4000+ on that 5080/5090 PC rig right? So you shouldn't have to deal with the fact that PC games have stuttering, inconsistent performance, game crashes, driver issues, OS issues. 5080s were literally broken for the $1000+ at launch with deactivated cores, clock limitations, crashes, and monitor incompatibilities etc (yeah I'm taking from experience as I'm still waiting on my GPU replacement). DLSS is nowhere near perfect as it's issues have been well documented including THE SAME FOLIAGE SHIMMER THAT SOME PSSR GAMES SUFFER FROM after 7+ years of iterating.

If people can spend thousands on those rigs with ALL of the "cons" and issues that come with it, then you can spend $700 and deal with a select few games that have poor integrations of PSSR. The majority of games look and run well beyond their base PS5 counterpart. Just what do you define as a "premium" product? And why would a $700 device be held to a higher standard than one costing thousands?!

Firstly, don't tell me how to feel about a device i worked hard to purchase with my money. The moment you start earning the money for me, that's the moment when your interpretation will carry some weight.

Secondly, you have completely misinterpreted my post my post. I should not have to feel any cons relative to the base model. Using your 5000 series example. The 5090 performs better than the 5080 at all times. The image quality on the 5090 is not inferior to that on the 5080 in any way.

This is how upgrades within the same device family have worked and are expected to work. This is not true for the ps5 pro in all instances. Part of the issue is the inability to select the graphics settings similar to pc. The other part is just a straight technology issue with Sony's initial implementation of PSSR.

 

[Karim]

Firstly, I gotta appreciate your post M MazingerDUDE . I appreciate it when people bring the receipts.

These specific examples look better than the base ps5. There are other examples where PSSRs cons less palatable compared to the base console.

The problem is that when paying for a premium device, I shouldn't have to deal with any "cons". It shouldn't be better than the base in one way and worse in another way.

This is the current problem with the ps5 pro. Once PSSR2 comes out, if it lives up to the hype, then obviously things will need to be reevaluated.

As it stands right now, the first year and a half has been a disaster for a pro product to me. The net of the disappointment led to me purchasing a 5090 and upgrading my pc.

This is something that I never pursued with the PS4 Pro because it was simply a significantly better than the base in almost every instance.

What receipts exactly you have provided to define ps5 pro a total failure in this thread following with others absurdities as the pssr is broken and so on ?

 

[Tqaulity]

Secondly, you have completely misinterpreted my post my post. I should not have to feel any cons relative to the base model. Using your 5000 series example. The 5090 performs better than the 5080 at all times. The image quality on the 5090 is not inferior to that on the 5080 in any way.

Ok and you're conflated different things. In no way is the PS5 Pro hardware worse than the base unit. Not in raw specs, not in storage, not even in value (since the extra storage and increased specs over the base is worth more than the $200 premium). Any cons on the PRO is not the fault of the HW itself but either business strategy or software. Missing the disc drive or vertical stand? Not a fault of the HW. PSSR issues? That's a SW and app issue.

What you're saying is that you shouldn't ever have a worst "experience" on the premium device and I agree completely with that. However, you (and many others) are putting the blame in the wrong place. PSSR woes is in the developer because we already see in most cases, PSSR is a noticeable improvement over the base. Sure Sony as of the platform developer can do things to help...and they are. More comprehensive debug tools, better documentation, and of course more advanced AI models. But at the end of the day, the app has to utilize that capability properly.

 

[FalconPunch]

Ok and you're conflated different things. In no way is the PS5 Pro hardware worse than the base unit. Not in raw specs, not in storage, not even in value (since the extra storage and increased specs over the base is worth more than the $200 premium). Any cons on the PRO is not the fault of the HW itself but either business strategy or software. Missing the disc drive or vertical stand? Not a fault of the HW. PSSR issues? That's a SW and app issue.

What you're saying is that you shouldn't ever have a worst "experience" on the premium device and I agree completely with that. However, you (and many others) are putting the blame in the wrong place. PSSR woes is in the developer because we already see in most cases, PSSR is a noticeable improvement over the base. Sure Sony as of the platform developer can do things to help...and they are. More comprehensive debug tools, better documentation, and of course more advanced AI models. But at the end of the day, the app has to utilize that capability properly.

PSSR was supposed to be the cherry on top. Instead it has become the crutch used to compensate for underpowered pro hardware. The truth of the matter is simple, the ps5 pro cannot 2-4x the resolution like the ps4 pro did on merit alone.

If it could, a lot of devs would not bother with PSSR and if they did, most PSSR implementations would be better. It would be better because the base input resolution would be higher masking the flaws of the first iteration of PSSR.

PSSR is supposed to be a testbed for sony's next gen ambitions. It's been an unsuccessful test so far.

 

[CobraAB]

Steam Machine will be Pro enough for you.

That thing is looking more and more to be DOA by the day...

 

[Swauny Jones]

it's basically what the PS4 Pro was to the PS4 so it has met what I expected from it minus the extra loud fan noise

 

[rnlval]

Completely false. 7nm -> 5nm is a full generation jump. 5nm to "4nm" is optimization.

Wrong. For example, TSMC's 16 nm to 7 nm is a generation jump. 7 nm to 5 nm is a minor density improvement when compared to the 28 nm to 16 nm jump. Try again.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Wrong. For example, TSMC's 28 nm to 16 nm is a generation jump. 7 nm to 5 nm is a minor density improvement when compared to the 28 nm to 16 nm jump. Try again.

Completely false, again. You are making up your own definitions. 7nm -> 5nm is a full jump, with 6nm optimization in between.

 

[rnlval]

Completely false, again. You are making up your own definitions. 7nm -> 5nm is a full jump, with 6nm optimization in between.

https://semiwiki.com/forum/attachments/tsmc-node-density-scaling-brief-png.1941/

TSMC's density scaling reduction.

N16 to N7 = +3.2X

N7 to N5 = 1.8X
N5 to N3E = 1.25X

If we do skip nodes, we get something like:
N7 to N3E = 2.25X

You are wrong, again.

Hint: Refer to 3D chip stacking R&D.

 

[J Required]

Im enjoying mine to the fullest, great hardware and improved game performance. And with the upcoming PSSR 2.0 update, Im expecting things to improve even more.

Really satisfied.

 

[avalonzero]

I just picked it up this weekend finally, before the price ends up rising. I have to say as mostly a PC gamer, it's one of the first consoles I feel is worth the money. It's nice to have something more portable that actually delivers a smooth gaming experience. With VRR on my TV it actually feels better on some games than my PC, due to there actually being optimization being done on them. Only disappointment is the absolute shit tier battery life for the controllers.

 

[DrFigs]

For 700 bucks it plays games about as well as I would like. I mean its 200 more than a base ps5. Just dollar wise you shouldn't expect a large difference.

 

[Tqaulity]

PSSR was supposed to be the cherry on top. Instead it has become the crutch used to compensate for underpowered pro hardware. The truth of the matter is simple, the ps5 pro cannot 2-4x the resolution like the ps4 pro did on merit alone.

If it could, a lot of devs would not bother with PSSR and if they did, most PSSR implementations would be better. It would be better because the base input resolution would be higher masking the flaws of the first iteration of PSSR.

PSSR is supposed to be a testbed for sony's next gen ambitions. It's been an unsuccessful test so far.

This is exactly my point my friend....PSSR was never meant to be the "cherry on top". It is THE CORE/INTEGRAL piece that makes this system an advancement over the base console. That's where everyone gets their expectations and judgements out of whack. That's where Sony spent the bulk of it's time and money in developing the PRO over 4 years. The machine learning aspects of the system is the true advancement and integral to all of the value that comes with this PRO system.

Go back and watch Mark Cerny interview on Project Amethyst and next gen. If you pay attention, you'll hear him say something that a lot of people still aren't fully grasping...when he talks about "power" he refers to it as "effective power". All of the innovations coming with Project Amethyst (neural arrays, universal compression etc.) he referred to as increasing the "effective" performance, bandwidth etc. The reality of the future of gaming is that the raw HW specs are less and less relevant and AI will be a performance "accelerator" (as he called it as well). We can clearly see that the difficulty and expense in scaling the physical hardware means that we are hitting a wall in how much additional gains we can get with building larger HW. It's just not practical anymore.

~10 years ago, it was possible for Sony to build a PRO console with a >2x larger GPU and higher clocks on the CPU and GPU for the same price as the base PS4 at launch. Why? Because by the time the PS4 PRO released, the base PS4 was in fact cheaper than it was at launch. Fast forward to 2024, and the base PS5 was actually more expensive than it was at launch 4 years earlier. So any increase in physical HW is going to come at an additional cost. That's the reality of the macroeconomics of computer HW today.

So AI is the solution to deliver the performance gains people expect. PSSR is just the start but it should theoretically increase the effective GPU performance by reducing the load on the GPU freeing it up to do additional work that couldn't be done on the base system. How? For example, a game running at 1440p/60 internal on the base console with a 4K upscale (i.e. TAA) can theoretically run at 1080p/60 internal on the PRO and use PSSR to deliver the same or better IQ at 4K. That is roughly 1/2 the load on the GPU (this is why many PRO titles run at lower internal resolution than the base because THAT IS THE POINT OF THE SYSTEM). So you have a GPU on the PRO is ~50% larger with more CUs etc (that is roughly 5ms of additional headroom on a 16ms frame for a 60fps game). Additionally on the PRO, it also is only rendering 1/2 the number of pixels so the cumulative bump over the base solution is actually well over 2x in that scenario (yes accounting for 2ms to run PSSR and other time lost on latency and inefficiencies). In other words, effectively, the graphics performance of the PRO is more than double that of the base in this example using PSSR. That is the vision and dream of the PRO.

Now yes we haven't seen this realized in every game released on the PRO, but let's not act like we haven't seen many cases with and without PSSR where the PRO is delivering way more than the "+45% rendering performance" figure will suggest. We've seen pixel counts increase by >50% to more than double in the best cases (ex. Returnal, Helldivers 2, Baldur's Gate 3). We've seen framerates increase by >50% with the same settings on the base (nearly every 1st party Sony title). And the PSSR 2 update is supposedly way more efficient meaning it'll take less overhead to run than the current model. That will "give back" even more GPU time to push perf even further. Stay tuned...