Support NeoGAF

[avatar299]

The problem with china is that they don't have a technological or educational infrastructure. Most of the country is agricultural and the people live on roughly 3 bucks a day.

the remnants of the communist leaders have given china a warped education system, where they have mandatory middle school that everyone goes to but private schools control high school and college...except the children of farmers can't "afford" to get, in, so you have a incredibly slow class of forward mobility.

a system that farmers were given in the 1980's where they were allowed to sell their produce at unregulated market prices in china if they met a government qouta attributed to the education problem. The unregulated market prices helped Chinese farmers(yes believe it or not, shit has improved for Chinese farmers) but since you first have to meet a quota children are pressured to remain behind.

Private education can't work with interference. If the Chinese want to improve the standard of living, they have to push education stronger, either through public or private means, they have to stop government control of their farmers, but as long as the Chinese government knows that the farmers and the workers are their bread and butter they can milk them forever.

If you people actually gave a damn about china, they wouldn't bitch about a measly 40 billion. They would demand that china gets rid of the responsibility system in rural china, allow them to trade at unregulated prices and encourage the children of farmers to go to school. The Chinese have the cultural drive, but the government takes away the economic feasibility. If a child goes to college, he risks starving his family.

But no one really cares... that's why people prefer to support theocracies like the Dali Lama, becuase it's safe and easy, and it comes with a nice big target.

 

[Fun Factor]

stop allowing them to be used for near slave labor would be a start

Gee I wonder who hires them for that?

Must be teh Chinese, tehy are evil!!!
They have poverty in their country ZOMG.

 

[Blackace]

Gee I wonder who hires them for that?

Must be teh Chinese, tehy are evil!!!
They have poverty in their country ZOMG.

can I ask you a serious question? are you that stupid?

 

[laserbeam]

http://www.jibjab.com/originals/big_box_mart

 

[Fun Factor]

can I ask you a serious question? are you that stupid?

Yeah, I'm sorry, of course all those Americans companies who took advantage of the cheap labor force & put them in such shitty conditions are innocent.

 

[avatar299]

Yeah, I'm sorry, of course all those Americans companies who took advantage of the cheap labor force & put them in such shitty conditions are innocent.

All those american companies actually help a ton of chinese. Working in a sweatshop is way better than being a chinese farmer.

Seriously, people need to understand that asia is not europe, north ameria or south ameria. It's not as easy as "oh look blame wal-mart."

 

[kozmo7]

Anyone else noticing Baby boomer closet-racism against Asians coming out during the Olympics? I don't mean insensitive comments either, I am talking racial slurs/beliefs. (No not on the internet )

 

[zoku88]

Anyone else noticing Baby boomer closet-racism against Asians coming out during the Olympics? I don't mean insensitive comments either, I am talking racial slurs/beliefs. (No not on the internet )

Actually, no. But that's mainly because I haven't really talked to a real person for a month or two >.>

 

[avatar299]

I haven't noticed it during the games, but the human right protesters are very...colorful

laserbeam, please change the avatar. Fucking creepy

 

[mrkgoo]

That's not really a scene of the impoverished. It's mostly just the government sticking up a wall to hide something messy.

 

[quaere]

Blackace, care to reconcile your claims about Chinese economic policies only benefiting the few with the massive drop in poverty among the many?

By this yardstick 969m people suffered from absolute poverty in 2004, a drop of over 270m since 1990. The world owed this progress largely to China, where poverty fell by almost 250m from 1990 to 2004.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11409401

 

[Srider]

I love how people leep to the defense of China ith 'bu bu but the US did some fucked up shit to'

Great, that is true, but in the US we can march in protest, blog about injustice, have a watchdog free press, and can change our very government through free elections if we dont like its direction.

In China if you speak against something you dont like you go to jail, and a special version of the internet that white washes history to keep the masses uninformed.

Do you know how the communist party works? It doesn't work like they just appoint random people off the streets.

You might be surprised at how it works, if you take the time to research it. I'm not going to argue that one system is better than the other, but at the very least, it also allows anyone that's dedicated to make impact in the direction that the government/country is going. Just because things aren't decided by a public general election doesn't mean things just happen by the say of one person.

Did you know that the actress GongLi is an elite member of the communist party?

 

[linsivvi]

Did you know that the actress GongLi is an elite member of the communist party?

To be fair chances are she's just a figurehead.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Do you know how the communist party works? It doesn't work like they just appoint random people off the streets.

You might be surprised at how it works, if you take the time to research it. I'm not going to argue that one system is better than the other, but at the very least, it also allows anyone that's dedicated to make impact in the direction that the government/country is going. Just because things aren't decided by a public general election doesn't mean things just happen by the say of one person.

Did you know that the actress GongLi is an elite member of the communist party?

Please excuse my ignorance, but doesn't the Politburo Standing Committee run the show and everyone else in the Party just rubber stamps what they say? I was under the impression that the only real way for a member to actually affect the party was to be invited into the Politburo and then push for change.

 

[black_13]

It ain't easy keeping a billion people to not live in poverty.

And this is damn Olympics, why the hell do you think every country wants to host it? So they can put on a good image for the world and show they are doing good, and get some good tourists and stuff in the long term. Every host country has done some ugly things, China certainly ain't the first.

World ain't exactly black and white.

 

[FiRez]

"Sometimes People need to have their faith rewarded."

Maybe hosting the olympic games will not fix the problems of the poor, but at least it can inspire greater things or make the people feel better about their own country

 

[Jonm1010]

All those american companies actually help a ton of chinese. Working in a sweatshop is way better than being a chinese farmer.

Seriously, people need to understand that asia is not europe, north ameria or south ameria. It's not as easy as "oh look blame wal-mart."

Have you ever saw the conditions of some of those sweatshops? I cant think of a good argument that would make sweatshops better than farming. let alone way better. Also let me just say, that just because this method may be helping some people get out of poverty it doesn't mean that it is the RIGHT way to do it!

 

[avatar299]

Have you ever saw the conditions of some of those sweatshops? I cant think of a good argument that would make sweatshops better than farming. let alone way better. Also let me just say, that just because this method may be helping some people get out of poverty it doesn't mean that it is the RIGHT way to do it!

what are they really? Sweatshop workers make more than farmers, live in better conditions, have flowing water and other necessities and this is big, on average the family that works in a sweatshop is more likely to send their children to high school and college than a farmer, who is lucky if a school is nearby?

 

[Blackace]

Yeah, I'm sorry, of course all those Americans companies who took advantage of the cheap labor force & put them in such shitty conditions are innocent.

And if you read my posts I said very clearly that Nike and Wal-Mart are taking advantage of the Chinese workers, but in the end it is 100% the governments fault for allowing and encouraging it. Nike didn't invade China and make this happen, China has reached out to these companies, and that is why they are not making head way on raising the standard living, because they are selling their people as semi-slave labor to companies that are not Chinese..

 

[M3wThr33]

And if you read my posts I said very clearly that Nike and Wal-Mart are taking advantage of the Chinese workers, but in the end it is 100% the governments fault for allowing and encouraging it. Nike didn't invade China and make this happen, China has reached out to these companies, and that is why they are not making head way on raising the standard living, because they are selling their people as semi-slave labor to companies that are not Chinese..

No! Blame Nike! Not their own government! The government should have NO say or responsibility for their own people.

 

[milanbaros]

Huh? What's the problem with the picture? I would advise you not to jump to conclusions that fast.
It's just a kid washing his face outside. Big deal.

The pic is suggestive at best. You don't know what's really going on there.

Not that "the real China" would be a place you'd like to live at, but this picture alone says nothing about it.

Yes. Seriously. Why are you all suggesting that there is anything bad about the scene on the right? You talk like you expect the rest of the world to live like Europe and America. Its not the case, and as far as things go, China is nowhere near the worst.

As for exploiting labour. I know people who have worked in these factories and they pay exactly the same, if not better to factories manufacturing for domestic companies. They provide employment. The conditions, like pay, is the same and in most cases better. What do you want Nike do? Pay them 2x as much as every other factory? That's not how it works.

 

[gantz85]

Jeez, you should understand that propaganda works both way. The Chinese government's absolute refusal to admit any wrongdoings or listening to its people should be addressed. Instead of asking why foreign medias are being so harsh on the Chinese government, one should ask how the media is able to get so much "bad" material to talk about in regards to China.

I don't see how you don't understand my statement - it's ALL propaganda. Read carefully pls.

 

[gantz85]

And if you read my posts I said very clearly that Nike and Wal-Mart are taking advantage of the Chinese workers, but in the end it is 100% the governments fault for allowing and encouraging it. Nike didn't invade China and make this happen, China has reached out to these companies, and that is why they are not making head way on raising the standard living, because they are selling their people as semi-slave labor to companies that are not Chinese..

I agree with the government's decisions and policies though; this is the way to bootstrap China up from third world to first world. What other way do you propose?

 

[Fun Factor]

And if you read my posts I said very clearly that Nike and Wal-Mart are taking advantage of the Chinese workers, but in the end it is 100% the governments fault for allowing and encouraging it. Nike didn't invade China and make this happen, China has reached out to these companies, and that is why they are not making head way on raising the standard living, because they are selling their people as semi-slave labor to companies that are not Chinese..

Fair enough.

That's not really a scene of the impoverished. It's mostly just the government sticking up a wall to hide something messy.

Which is kinda funny, because the shit the U.S. & some other "Western Democracies" did were as bad if not worse than whatever China did to prepare for the Olympics.

1984 Los Angeles Olympics had the massive round up jailings of anyone suspected of being in a gang, which just happened to be mostly young black men..
The 1996 Atlanta Olympics pretty much made being homless a crime, & I believe they demolished public housings for some Olympic venues as well.

Even Greece's 2004 Olympics was the same as well, rounding up & jailing homless as well as deporting refugees to look good for the tourists.

 

[Blackace]

I agree with the government's decisions and policies though; this is the way to bootstrap China up from third world to first world. What other way do you propose?

Spend money on internal businesses. If someone is going to exploit this generation of people it might as well be a company that can put money back into the country and a company that will not run away as soon as they start to make the workers' wage above slavewage.

 

[LuCkymoON]

BREAKING: country has poor people that live in crappy neighborhood.

you missed the part where the gov put up billboards to hide the poor people.

 

[avatar299]

Spend money on internal businesses. If someone is going to exploit this generation of people it might as well be a company that can put money back into the country and a company that will not run away as soon as they start to make the workers' wage above slavewage.

China doesn't have a pool of skilled enough workers t to grow a domestic alternative. Chinese business can pay factory workers better, but what about management and higher positions?

China needs to create a new workforce with more skilled workers that can compete on a global scale. They have to fund more education, both liberal arts wise and skill wise and build a solid infrastructure throughout the entire country.

 

[Karakand]

Which is kinda funny, because the shit the U.S. & some other "Western Democracies" did were as bad if not worse than whatever China did to prepare for the Olympics.

1984 Los Angeles Olympics had the massive round up jailings of anyone suspected of being in a gang, which just happened to be mostly young black men..
The 1996 Atlanta Olympics pretty much made being homless a crime, & I believe they demolished public housings for some Olympic venues as well.

Even Greece's 2004 Olympics was the same as well, rounding up & jailing homless as well as deporting refugees to look good for the tourists.

Good thing we have a free press that uncovers these things so we can condemn them and hopefully prevent them from happening again.

We'll probably never know the totality of what the Chicoms did that was questionable in their preparations for the Olympics.

 

[Blackace]

China doesn't have a pool of skilled enough workers t to grow a domestic alternative. Chinese business can pay factory workers better, but what about management and higher positions?

China needs to create a new workforce with more skilled workers that can compete on a global scale. They have to fund more education, both liberal arts wise and skill wise and build a solid infrastructure throughout the entire country.

being slavelabor isn't doing that for them. Not at all.

 

[gantz85]

Spend money on internal businesses. If someone is going to exploit this generation of people it might as well be a company that can put money back into the country and a company that will not run away as soon as they start to make the workers' wage above slavewage.

A nation like China requires foreign investment for it to really accelerate at the pace that it is doing so now. If you're asking for it to slow down, that's another matter entirely. Internal businesses have a LOT of support in China and there have been plenty of Chinese giants that have risen, from banks, to steel companies, to petroleum companies, to IT companies (Alipay, Baidu, etc). It is a land of bustling opportunity for the local companies and the money cycle is growing larger every day internally. Another thing people should be aware of is that foreign banks were not allowed until very recently; HSBC was the first foreign bank given the OK last year. This goes for alot of their other industries: telecommunications etc. All are local.

The cases you are talking about like Nike and such; these allow employment on such a massive scale that it solves alot of China's problems. The money coming in from the foreign companies also circulates into the Chinese economy. Furthermore as the economy expands and matures the average pay level will continually rise and these "slave labour" conditions will be forced to either raise their pay or relocate to other places.

I honestly feel that people are underestimating the will and cunning of the Chinese leaders.

 

[Blackace]

A nation like China requires foreign investment for it to really accelerate at the pace that it is doing so now. If you're asking for it to slow down, that's another matter entirely. Internal businesses have a LOT of support in China and there have been plenty of Chinese giants that have risen, from banks, to steel companies, to petroleum companies, to IT companies (Alipay, Baidu, etc). It is a land of bustling opportunity for the local companies and the money cycle is growing larger every day internally. Another thing people should be aware of is that foreign banks were not allowed until very recently; HSBC was the first foreign bank given the OK last year. This goes for alot of their other industries: telecommunications etc. All are local.

The cases you are talking about like Nike and such; these allow employment on such a massive scale that it solves alot of China's problems. The money coming in from the foreign companies also circulates into the Chinese economy. Furthermore as the economy expands and matures the average pay level will continually rise and these "slave labour" conditions will be forced to either raise their pay or relocate to other places.

I honestly feel that people are underestimating the will and cunning of the Chinese leaders.

and when Nike pulls the plug and rolls to Thailand then what? Also, China's leaders don't have the best track record in modern history for really taking care of the people and trying to establish their country on the forefront.. maybe this group is better

 

[Jonm1010]

what are they really? Sweatshop workers make more than farmers, live in better conditions, have flowing water and other necessities and this is big, on average the family that works in a sweatshop is more likely to send their children to high school and college than a farmer, who is lucky if a school is nearby?

Like I said, maybe you should look at some of the documentaries and first hand accounts of some of the conditions, many dont get running water, work 90 hour work weeks etc, etc. But fine lets take your argument at face value. My second point still stands and really all your doing is the equivalent of arguing me that i'm better off in this prison with sex deprived Bruno because I have a window and nicer bed compared to that other prison where I have nothing. But either way i'm still getting fucked.

 

[_Xenon_]

According to numerous documentaries, 2/3 of China is rural and a good chunk of them are extremely poor.

Talk about pure bullshit.

 

[Chumly]

Which is kinda funny, because the shit the U.S. & some other "Western Democracies" did were as bad if not worse than whatever China did to prepare for the Olympics.

1984 Los Angeles Olympics had the massive round up jailings of anyone suspected of being in a gang, which just happened to be mostly young black men..
The 1996 Atlanta Olympics pretty much made being homless a crime, & I believe they demolished public housings for some Olympic venues as well.

Even Greece's 2004 Olympics was the same as well, rounding up & jailing homless as well as deporting refugees to look good for the tourists.

Keep Spinning

 

[gantz85]

and when Nike pulls the plug and rolls to Thailand then what? Also, China's leaders don't have the best track record in modern history for really taking care of the people and trying to establish their country on the forefront.. maybe this group is better

China doesn't need Nike, Nike needs China.

China does need A LOT of companies like Nike to come in, but it isn't dependent on any one of them.

If one of them leaves, plenty will surge in trying to take its place. Them leaving is also a good sign for costs and slave labour conditions which you're arguing against -- it means they can't sustain their ridiculous slave labour conditions any longer and have to find somewhere else to save costs.

You're chasing your own shadow :lol

 

[Jonm1010]

A nation like China requires foreign investment for it to really accelerate at the pace that it is doing so now. If you're asking for it to slow down, that's another matter entirely. Internal businesses have a LOT of support in China and there have been plenty of Chinese giants that have risen, from banks, to steel companies, to petroleum companies, to IT companies (Alipay, Baidu, etc). It is a land of bustling opportunity for the local companies and the money cycle is growing larger every day internally. Another thing people should be aware of is that foreign banks were not allowed until very recently; HSBC was the first foreign bank given the OK last year. This goes for alot of their other industries: telecommunications etc. All are local.

The cases you are talking about like Nike and such; these allow employment on such a massive scale that it solves alot of China's problems. The money coming in from the foreign companies also circulates into the Chinese economy. Furthermore as the economy expands and matures the average pay level will continually rise and these "slave labour" conditions will be forced to either raise their pay or relocate to other places.

I honestly feel that people are underestimating the will and cunning of the Chinese leaders.

And I think your giving way to much credit to the Chinese leadership that they actually want conditions to increase to a level comparable to 1st world countries. An ignorant, scared and less wealthy society is less likely to create problems or threaten their power and authority. They may want to give them just enough to not create a revolt but there is no reason or evidence to conclude they are the altruistic people you seem to think they are.

 

[The Orange]

Spend money on internal businesses. If someone is going to exploit this generation of people it might as well be a company that can put money back into the country and a company that will not run away as soon as they start to make the workers' wage above slavewage.

That all sounds nice, but this needs to happen gradually, like it is right now, you can't force a country to upgrade, not only because their economy would not handle it, the world economy would not handle a more rapid change either. They've already had problems with an overheating economy, the things you propose would only damage the people in the long-term, with sky-rocketing inflation and stuff like that.

What I find most ironic though (not directed at you Blackace), is that our way of lifestyle (the vast majority of us), would not be possible if China was an "upstanding" nation. It's easy pointing fingers, but (this comparison might sound a bit far-fetched) we're like drug users complaining about the drug dealer, as in "It's not right that he's selling drugs".

I'd type a lot more, but these debates always seem to go in the way of people claiming higher moral ground, where they have none .

 

[Blackace]

China doesn't need Nike, Nike needs China.

China does need A LOT of companies like Nike to come in, but it isn't dependent on any one of them.

If one of them leaves, plenty will surge in trying to take its place. Them leaving is also a good sign for costs and slave labour conditions which you're arguing against -- it means they can't sustain their ridiculous slave labour conditions any longer and have to find somewhere else to save costs.

You're chasing your own shadow :lol

I am hardly chasing my own shadow. Nike doesn't need China, nor does Wal-Mart or any other company. They there because they are the cheapest. You know that. China isn't going to be able to keep foreign investment if they try to bring the workers' wage up. They need to build internally. To set standard for their country. Also, we talk about the Chinese workers just like the government does as a resource. But worker for nothing takes its toll on people and the fact that you have sweatshops for everything from women to kids is just plain bad for the people's growth as they try to modernize..

 

[Blackace]

That all sounds nice, but this needs to happen gradually, like it is right now, you can't force a country to upgrade, not only because their economy would not handle it, the world economy would not handle a more rapid change either. They've already had problems with an overheating economy, the things you propose would only damage the people in the long-term, with sky-rocketing inflation and stuff like that.

What I find most ironic though (not directed at you Blackace), is that our way of lifestyle (the vast majority of us), would not be possible if China was an "upstanding" nation. It's easy pointing fingers, but (this comparison might sound a bit far-fetched) we're like drug users complaining about the drug dealer, as in "It's not right that he's selling drugs".

I'd type a lot more, but these debates always seem to go in the way of people claiming higher moral ground, where they have none .

Like I said if anyone should exploit its people it should be China, because at least they would be making businesses and exports that are theirs. Of course ideally no one get exploited and we'd all be happy

 

[Kipe]

I am hardly chasing my own shadow. Nike doesn't need China, nor does Wal-Mart or any other company. They there because they are the cheapest. You know that. China isn't going to be able to keep foreign investment if they try to bring the workers' wage up. They need to build internally. To set standard for their country. Also, we talk about the Chinese workers just like the government does as a resource. But worker for nothing takes its toll on people and the fact that you have sweatshops for everything from women to kids is just plain bad for the people's growth as they try to modernize..

Walmart strongarms companies to manufacture in China. They set a price for the supplier and they either meet that price by building factories in China or they lose shelf space to the world's biggest retailer. It takes two to tango.

 

[gantz85]

I am hardly chasing my own shadow. Nike doesn't need China, nor does Wal-Mart or any other company. They there because they are the cheapest. You know that. China isn't going to be able to keep foreign investment if they try to bring the workers' wage up. They need to build internally. To set standard for their country. Also, we talk about the Chinese workers just like the government does as a resource. But worker for nothing takes its toll on people and the fact that you have sweatshops for everything from women to kids is just plain bad for the people's growth as they try to modernize..

Oh trust me, the capitalistic and quarter-by-quarter strategies of modern American or global corporations demand that they NEED the cheapest alternative, and not only WANT. They need China.

What makes you think that China isn't building internally or setting standards for the country? The Chinese leadership is at heart with Hu Jintao, patriots. The problem is that China is way too fucking large and only Beijing and Shanghai are properly protected. The other provinces are ridiculously corrupt and broken, and China will have to find a way out of this through civil reform.

They don't work for nothing.. They earn more in these sweatshops than they do in farms, that's why they go there!


End of the day I'm not going to spend my time talking too much about this on GAF, but I do think the core Chinese leadership is honest about their intentions but there are plenty of administrative and logistical difficulties present. It'll be a long and painful road for China to have an economy and culture as mature as the US or EU (despite all their flaws).

 

[Blackace]

Walmart strongarms companies to manufacture in China. They set a price for the supplier and they either meet that price by building factories in China or they lose shelf space to the world's biggest retailer. It takes two to tango.

Thailand would be almost as good for them.. in fact they use them as well for some of their needs.

But I concede your point. I still think selling your people as near slave labor to these companies is a big mistake when you are in position to be a world leader..

 

[avatar299]

being slavelabor isn't doing that for them. Not at all.

what kind of slavelabor? being a slave to a company that pay you more and give you mobility is better than being a farmer who is a slave to the government.

I just don't see how inviting unemployment is the answer here?

Like I said, maybe you should look at some of the documentaries and first hand accounts of some of the conditions, many dont get running water, work 90 hour work weeks etc, etc. But fine lets take your argument at face value. My second point still stands and really all your doing is the equivalent of arguing me that i'm better off in this prison with sex deprived Bruno because I have a window and nicer bed compared to that other prison where I have nothing. But either way i'm still getting fucked.

I doubt the running water claim. The average Chinese factory family has running water. Maybe the factory doesn't, but the home...

as to the second argument, once again i say stop using the model of other countries to china. The Chinese in a factory has a better life than a poor Chinese farmer, that is almost a fact. Yes, both suck but one actually has a real chance at getting better.

What do you propose instead?

 

[The Orange]

Like I said if anyone should exploit its people it should be China, because at least they would be making businesses and exports that are theirs. Of course ideally no one get exploited and we'd all be happy

I get what you're saying, but China doesn't need more money. The wages in all those foreign companies will slowly go up, and the country will be changing slowly, as it's happened in every western country that went from "poor" to rich. It's just that it seems so wrong to us, because we're a a decade or two (or three) infront of them in these things, and we feel appalled at the shit that happens there, while our countries were not much different.

 

[Blackace]

I get what you're saying, but China doesn't need more money. The wages in all those foreign companies will slowly go up, and the country will be changing slowly, as it's happened in every western country that went from "poor" to rich. It's just that it seems so wrong to us, because we're a a decade or two (or three) infront of them in these things, and we feel appalled at the shit that happens there, while our countries were not much different.

yes it does.. not the country, but the people

 

[_Xenon_]

And if you read my posts I said very clearly that Nike and Wal-Mart are taking advantage of the Chinese workers, but in the end it is 100% the governments fault for allowing and encouraging it. Nike didn't invade China and make this happen, China has reached out to these companies, and that is why they are not making head way on raising the standard living, because they are selling their people as semi-slave labor to companies that are not Chinese..

I can't believe a mod can be so ignorant as you are. Not being able to make as much as you do doesn't mean they are living like slaves.

 

[Kipe]

Thailand would be almost as good for them.. in fact they use them as well for some of their needs.

But I concede your point. I still think selling your people as near slave labor to these companies is a big mistake when you are in position to be a world leader..

Companies are already moving away from China to Thailand and Vietnam because China is trying to improve working conditions. :lol

Here's a LA Times article about it. LA Times spins more towards the yuan as the big factor on the shift to southeast asia, which it is no doubt, but I read another article, which I can't find, that spinned more about working regulations being forced on export companies.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/09/business/fi-currency9

 

[avatar299]

I can't believe a mod can be so ignorant as you are. Not being able to make as much as you do doesn't mean they are living like slaves.

no reason for the namecalling

 

[Kipe]

I can't believe a mod can be so ignorant as you are. Not being able to make as much as you do doesn't mean they are living like slaves.

Not cool. Blackace is always a gentleman even if you disagree with him.

 

[Blackace]

I can't believe a mod can be so ignorant as you are. Not being able to make as much as you do doesn't mean they are living like slaves.

but they are. check out the cost of living in China and get back to me about ignorance. the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger not smaller. they have no established middle class.