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[Lime]

Professor Crystal Fleming wrote a response to Roxane Gay's op-ed and thereby targeting the usual phrase "if only Clinton would've won" or "things would've been so much better if Hillary had won" whenever we are faced with Trump's neo-fascism.

More importantly, the simple fact is that we don’t have to guess what would have happened “if Hillary had won.” I can tell you exactly what would have happened because we have strong evidence from recent history. If Hillary had won, the vast majority of Democrats and Republicans would have continued to deny the fact that white supremacy still exists in the United States. If Hillary had won, the critical insights of Ferguson, Mo., youths, Black Lives Matter activists and indigenous people standing up at Standing Rock would have continued to be sidelined. If Hillary had won, millions of “liberals” (especially elites) would still be sleeping, tucked comfortably in their delusions of inclusion. And the painful realities of white supremacy that are now being openly discussed and confronted would have been swept under the rug of respectable, bipartisan denial.

We would not be better off with widespread ignorance (or apathy) about the sleeper cells of white supremacists infiltrating every sphere of power. While many contend that Donald Trump has “enabled” white supremacists, the truth is that our whole entire society has enabled white supremacists since its inception. The idea that Trump magically created or single-handedly enabled white supremacists is as historically shortsighted as it is politically inaccurate. If anything, his presidency is helping to wake people up to ongoing realities.

Trump did not magically create white supremacy or fundamentally alter the racial power structure of this country. If anything, his presidency is helping to wake people up to ongoing realities. White supremacist groups, long absorbed into (and tolerated by) the majority population, surged under Barack Obama’s presidency. A recent Washington Post/ABC poll shows that nearly 1 in 10 adults, or 22 million U.S. citizens, “call it acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views.” And that’s just the percentage of people who were willing to admit that they embrace white supremacy. A 2016 survey demonstrated that about a third of Trump supporters described African Americans as less intelligent than whites—and about one-fifth of Hillary Clinton supporters expressed the same racist view.

Sure, thousands of racist extremists might not have felt empowered to take to the streets without an overtly racist president But let’s face it: These people (and their moderate white enablers) would have still been spreading cancerous views, making covert discriminatory decisions and helping to oppress people of color under a Hillary Clinton presidency. But apathy and denial would have continued to prevail under the banner of “liberal progress.”

And while Clinton did give lip service to “systemic racism” during the Democratic National Convention last year, the fact remains that she has yet to take full ownership of her role (and that of her political party) in perpetuating the very same systematic racism she ostensibly denounced. As Gloria Wekker demonstrates in her brilliant book White Innocence, white populations across the globe are socialized to deny or minimize their role in maintaining racism—and Clinton is no exception.

Many people still haven’t learned the basic lesson of the 2016 election: Over 60 million people voted for an overt racist endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan because we live in a racist society. The white supremacists who are openly marching have been tolerated and normalized by white communities for generations. Each new day brings fresh empirical evidence that while some Republicans claim to disapprove of Trump’s open defense of white supremacists in Charlottesville, they don’t disapprove quite enough to stop supporting him.

In other words, millions of people in this country, most of them white, either openly embrace white supremacy or openly embrace politicians who openly embrace white supremacy.

While I, too, am horrified by Trump’s presidency and all that it reveals about our nation, it is a good and necessary thing that widespread attention is finally being focused on the enduring reality of white supremacy. We now have a unique opportunity to see and name systematic racism clearly and think strategically about the kinds of social and political transformations that will be needed to create anti-racist change.

More at the link: http://www.theroot.com/hillary-is-not-your-white-savior-1798308647

I think it's an important point for liberals and centrists to consider, i.e. white supremacy does not end or stop with Trump as the president - it's so ingrained into the fabric of US society that even a corporate Democrat in office would've continued the status quo, or as Fleming writes, you'd still have police violence, high incarceration rates, NoDAPL, etc. The most noticeable difference with Trump is that white supremacy unmasked (and that the fascists and neo-nazis feel emboldened).

 

[LakeEarth]

She would've done something. Something is better than accelerating in the opposite direction.

 

[commedieu]

"I think it's an important point for liberals and centrists to consider, i.e. white supremacy does not end or stop with Trump as the president - it's so ingrained into the fabric of US society that even a corporate Democrat in office would've continued the status quo."

-Ancient African American proverb.


Now there would be a difference as far as supreme court nominations, and laws. That trickles down to have some effects. But Obama didn't cure many POC issues completely. Some bandaids along the way for sure.

But there is much more proguess to be had with Democrats who actually pretend to listen and throw a few bones your way, versus a president endorsing white supremacists and appointing them.

 

[lightskintwin]

Gotdamn, at all that truth. I've always said White people practice a willful ignorance of White supremacy and racism and it's history in this country, and constantly act shocked anytime it comes up to the surface when it's always been there and nobody is doing anything to root it out except the extreme versions of it that label themselves.

 

[Sami+]

Ok but Hilary didn't say she wanted me to have to wear a Muslim badge so I'll take it.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Hillary would have been status quo regulation white supremacy. Trump is actually worse than that but Clinton certainly wouldn't have been a savior or even that progressive.

 

[liquidtmd]

She wouldn't have been the saviour, but with the sheer institutional intentional damage Trump is doing to agencies and Government by his disbanding and appointing of figures it is going to take well over a decade to get back to where we were, if not longer, if at all.

 

[lenovox1]

Is the gist that these angry white supremacists who emerged all the way back during the Republican Presidential Primary process would have slinked back into their caves as soon as Clinton won and wouldn't have been as active or even more so during a Clinton administration? Really? Really?

We can talk about status quo, but this shit has been bubbling to the surface for a very, very long time.

 

[DrBo42]

Trump kinda did us a service by making these cretins feel like they can come out in the open or "reveal their power level" as those idiots like to say. Now they can't be ignored or said to be nonexistent. And there's far more of us than them.

People need to actually vote in 2018 and 2020.

 

[ClosingADoor]

She would have at least pushed a progressive agenda that might help minorities. No, it will never be a quick fix, or maybe a fix ever. But it is something. People might now wake up with Trump, but when he is gone, it is not like the people who thought this way will change their minds and go: let's not be racist from now on.

 

[El_Tiguere]

I live in the south, and a few black older people have told me they actually prefer the overt in-your-face racism of white people in the south, because they at least know to stay away.

With white elite out-of-touch politicians like Hillary and Bill Clinton, you have a racist Barry Goldwater girl who championed the mass incarceration of blacks ("bring them to heel") in the 90's, and whose husband gutted welfare to the detriment of even more poor black people. They then turn around and hold photo ops with black people, and get loyal lackeys to side with them as a show of how down they are with black folks.

 

[IamDodongo]

She wouldn't have been the savior, but with the sheer institutional intentional damage Trump is doing to agencies and Government by his disbanding and appointing of figures it is going to take well over a decade to get back to where we were, if not longer, if at all.

That's how I feel.

She wouldn't have been a radical fix for the institutional race issues in America, but at least she wouldn't be doing the damage that Trump does every day.

EDIT: Obligatory warning to ignore El_Tiguere. He just wants to stir up shit.

 

[Sirpopopop]

She wouldn't have been a savior, but it would have meant:

-No Gorsuch
-No withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol
-No Scott Pruitt
-Stronger response to Charlottesville
-No Transgender ban in the military
-None of this deregulation hogwash
-No attempt at a Muslim ban
-None of this Chicago race baiting.
-None of this MS13 bullshit
-None of this Border Wall bullshit

That's more than just, "Yeah... she would have been better than Trump."

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I've never heard anyone imply that Hillary would have stopped, or even slowed down the impact of white supremacy in America. I've only heard people use her winning as an example of how things wouldn't have gotten to the point it's been getting to since Trump got into office.

 

[God Dayumm]

She is no savior in matters of white supremacy, but at least she wouldn't be poisoning everyone by fucking up things like the EPA

 

[jph139]

And once Trump is out and the left swings back into power, the establishment will happily brush white supremacy back under the rug and forget about it. The sight of it is more offensive than the presence.

Change is going to come from grassroots action, as it always has.

 

[B-Dubs]

She wouldn't have been a savior, but it would have meant:

-No Gorsuch
-No withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol
-No Scott Pruitt
-Stronger response to Charlottesville
-No Transgender ban in the military
-None of this deregulation hogwash
-No attempt at a Muslim ban
-None of this Chicago race baiting.
-None of this MS13 bullshit
-None of this Border Wall bullshit

That's more than just, "Yeah... she would have been better than Trump."

She wouldn't have put Sessions in charge of the Justice Department and the Civil Rights team wouldn't be getting disbanded and de-fanged.

 

[psyfi]

Hilary would have been total white neoliberal status quo. Riding the corporate D, like pretty much all democrats. Trump is far far worse, but Hilary's ilk have been viciously attacking and exploiting us too.

 

[jon bones]

yes thank goodness we have a KKK sympathizer in the white house

much better than a "didnt pass a purity test fake liberal" like Clinton

i'm glad i make enough money to be "one of the good ones" or these fuckin bernie or bust dummies would really be a problem to my family

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Maybe not, but I don't know anyone who thought she was?

 

[a Master Ninja]

Trump's Supreme Court appointments will haunt us for 40 years.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

Well duh.

 

[El_Tiguere]

yes thank goodness we have a KKK sympathizer in the white house

much better than a "didnt pass a purity test fake liberal" like Clinton

I would guess Hillary would have brought more young blacks to heel, as long as the private prisons (and the food chain up and down the criminal justice system) was making money.

But as much as I hate the Clintons... Trump is indeed doing much more immediate damage to black people through Jeff Sessions, the gutting of HUD, etc.

 

[Infinite]

yes thank goodness we have a KKK sympathizer in the white house

much better than a "didnt pass a purity test fake liberal" like Clinton

i'm glad i make enough money to be "one of the good ones" or these fuckin bernie or bust dummies would really be a problem to my family

I think you should read the article if you haven't already

 

[IrishNinja]

some excellent points made here, even if i appreciate gay's sentiment

Trump kinda did us a service by making these cretins feel like they can come out in the open or "reveal their power level" as those idiots like to say. Now they can't be ignored or said to be nonexistent. And there's far more of us than them.

People need to actually vote in 2018 and 2020.

i used to say this too (and tend to agree with some) but i have to acknowledge it's a privileged statement. when these assholes march around small black churches & synagogues, i doubt the patrons within share the sentiment.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Didn't the Trump campaign basically blast black voter districts in swing states with this very message to stop them from voting Clinton?

 

[captive]

who's pretending that she would be some white savior?

She wouldn't have been a savior, but it would have meant:

-No Gorsuch
-No withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol
-No Scott Pruitt
-Stronger response to Charlottesville
-No Transgender ban in the military
-None of this deregulation hogwash
-No attempt at a Muslim ban
-None of this Chicago race baiting.
-None of this MS13 bullshit
-None of this Border Wall bullshit

That's more than just, "Yeah... she would have been better than Trump."

no Jeff fucking Sessions running the entire DOJ, thats, not inconsequential.

Furthermore from everything I read about her, if something needed to be done she would have listened to opinions from a range of people not just old white men. I mean come on.

 

[Guevara]

Ok, so Trump and co have forced us to admit white supremacy exists.

And then what?

 

[gutter_trash]

Hillary is more LEFT than Obama on social programs and healtcare.

I understand the frustration many had on her husband Bill, but Hillary was always more socially Left than Bill and Barack.

she was crucified in 1993 for "Hillarycare" and was destroyed by AM Radio and Conservatives and Bluedogs.

 

[Strike]

No one was. Incremental or not, progress is still progress. That should be worth voting for.

 

[QuantumBro]

I mean duh, she's no Brad Pitt.

 

[cdyhybrid]

"Things would be better with Hillary" = "Hillary is the messiah" now?

wat

 

[Heroman]

Wait, people thought Hillary would be our savior?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Yes

 

[Veitsev]

This article is garbage. No one is arguing that Hilary would have saved the country from white supremacy. They are arguing things would be much better if she had won.

Author seems like she has been living under a fucking rock.

 

[Nafai1123]

The ONE positive of Trump being POTUS is that these white supremacy issues that have been rampant in our country since it's inception are being looked at under a microscope, in large part because of the support Trump has given these people. Without the actual leadership in this country doing anything about it though, it really means jack-shit. Oh yay, people are aware just how racist many Americans are. How does that help us when those racists feel empowered by the administration in power?

Hillary would've been a vastly superior option in this country, regardless of whether these white supremacist issues were as transparent as they are now.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Professor Crystal Fleming wrote a response to Roxane Gay's op-ed and thereby targeting the usual phrase "if only Clinton would've won" or "things would've been so much better if Hillary had won" whenever we are faced with Trump's neo-fascism.

More at the link: http://www.theroot.com/hillary-is-not-your-white-savior-1798308647

I think it's an important point for liberals and centrists to consider, i.e. white supremacy does not end or stop with Trump as the president - it's so ingrained into the fabric of US society that even a corporate Democrat in office would've continued the status quo, or as Fleming writes, you'd still have police violence, high incarceration rates, NoDAPL, etc. The most noticeable difference with Trump is that white supremacy unmasked (and that the fascists and neo-nazis feel emboldened).

Gorsuch alone is going to fuck minorities for 30+ years even worse. God help us if RBG croaks in the next couple years.

That alone made Clinton the obvious choice. And as others have posted, minorities are under direct assault with Trump in a number of areas. Clinton at worst would have maintained the Obama baseline. Nobody has ever declared her as a "white savior." We just knew that she would have been a lot better. Now we have Nazis marching in the streets. A Jim Crow style racist in Sessions in charge of the Justice Department, a dysfunctional executive, and a dumb as rocks President.

Why are even writing about Clinton now anyway? She's not running for office and this is in the wake of Charlottesville. Where POTUS gave the wink and the nod to white supremacists and Nazis.

 

[Morat]

"Things would be better with Hillary" = "Hillary is the messiah" now?

wat

Yeah, deeply silly article making weird unjustified points

 

[B-Dubs]

Wait, people thought Hillary would be our savior?

I don't think so. At most people have been saying shit wouldn't be this bad if she had won and that's kinda true.

 

[family_guy]

If Hillary won and nothing changed after Obama, that's still better than what we have right now.

 

[pigeon]

I mean, Hillary got up in a debate and said institutional racism is real, all of us play a part, and we need to examine that in ourselves.

I feel like sweeping that under the rug is a little unfair.

 

[DrBo42]

i used to say this too (and tend to agree with some) but i have to acknowledge it's a privileged statement. when these assholes march around small black churches & synagogues, i doubt the patrons within share the sentiment.

Yeah, I'm aware this has been the reality for people/families for years/decades. Not trying to come off like it's worth it or that it's new. Just saying the genie can't be put back in the bottle now and the country might be finally more open to change both institutional and extremist problems without dismissing them.

 

[VistraNorrez]

One President isn't going to transform race relations, but maybe a bunch of Progressive Presidents (relative to American politics anyway) in a row might have moved the needle far enough that it couldn't be snapped back like Trump is trying to do with Obama's policies. The next Dem to get in the White House has, at best, a chance to move things where they are when Obama left office. And maybe not even if Trump changes the Supreme Court enough.

 

[dramatis]

She wouldn't have put Sessions in charge of the Justice Department and the Civil Rights team wouldn't be getting disbanded and de-fanged.

More than that, DeVos has also been dismissing civil rights issues at Education.

The growing generation is getting screwed.

 

[djplaeskool]

jfc this article lacks all kinds of perspective.

You don't have to burn the whole forest to the ground.

 

[SerAardvark]

Wait, people thought Hillary would be our savior?

Who doesn't enjoy tearing down a strawman from time to time?

 

[Kusagari]

Yes, Trump has brought the white supremacist movement into the spotlight and accelerated things like the Confederate Statue removal

But nobody thought Hillary was a white savior. And, sorry to inform you, Bernie wouldn't be one either. The systematic racism in this country is too ingrained for any president to actual counter.

And having a KKK in chief that brings that to the forefront isn't worth all the other damage he's causing, that Hillary wouldn't have done, that will harm us for a generation or longer.

 

[VistraNorrez]

Yeah, I'm aware this has been the reality for people/families for years/decades. Not trying to come off like it's worth it or that it's new. Just saying the genie can't be put back in the bottle now and the country might be finally more open to change both institutional and extremist problems without dismissing them.

Nah, things will move back to how they were under Obama and white people will think that's enough and quiet down on reform.

 

[G.ZZZ]

No one is here to save anyone. We're trying to make things better. Also, for as shitty as she was, she still was leftwing for american standards and she would've still moved the discourse left, and maybe we could've gotten a more leftwing candidate the next time. And maybe MAYBE america could've started re-implement social welfare and whatsnot.

Trump is just a dumpster fire. Not sure if he even is moving people left or right since he's so toxic that seems that only the hard right bloc is standing by him.

Also not sure why are people saying that Obama was quiet on reforms. The dude certainly was, but he also had very little he could work with since he had very little effective power to push things as democrats didn't control shit. America still can't propose basic human rights like control on selling weapons and you pretend the president could end racism? Let's be real.

 

[The God]

b-b-but she dabbed on ellen!!