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[Open Source]

*confused*

The blame for this act lies with these militants, but that doesn't mean I can't hold others responsible for giving them further motivation.

Holy cow, you are incredibly stupid. I mean, how could any sane person say something like this?

"Well, I saw pictures of an American beheaded so I went out and killed Muslims. And the people who beheaded the American are partly responsible for those Muslims' deaths."

It's scary how out of touch with rational thought some people are.

 

[Evolution VIII]

I did not say that. I'm saying the capital and technical know-how to profitably exploit oil fields presently rests solely with Western companies. Knowledge may leak, but the technical advancement needed to perform this complex feat is very high and is a result of our advanced engineering schools, competition, and ability to pool capital.

No, it is not. Saudi Arabia has the most advanced oil technology on the planet which directly coincides with the fact that they are the most oil rich country on the planet. Also, remember that almost everyone who is of Middle Eastern descent is western trained, meaning they go to the top schools in America and Europe.

Also, the guy that got killed was working for Lockheed Martin, a defense company. Surely they could've done all of that work here at home. And another thing, a lot of the jobs that are being offered in the Middle East are not that hi-tech at all. So there really isn't a need for Americans to be over there at the moment, other than to try and cash in on a high-risk, high-paying job.

 

[Cooter]

The blame for this act lies with these militants, but that doesn't mean I can't hold others responsible for giving them further motivation.

You just don't get it.

There can be no possible motivation to pull a complete stranger off the street and brutally saw his head off.

Any compassionate rational person cannot be motivated to behead an innocent person. That's why these people are evil and must be dealt with. Any attempt to describe motivation is a justification for the act itself.

I can see an argument for motivation if someone violently murdered your daughter but that is not what the situation is. These people have done nothing wrong.

 

[darscot]

The difference is were not talking about looking at pictures. Were talking about bombs falling on houses and people being tortured in prisons. What would you do if the some group grabed your Dad by mistake and beat him to death in some bullshit prison? Or blew up your house and killed your children. I don't agree with what these people are doing. I wish I could say I wouldn't do the same thing if I had to walk a mile their shoes. You bomb my house and kill my family I might just go nuts and start lopping of heads myself.

 

[Cooter]

Telling tag Darscot.

Someone kills your family and you go saw off some random stranger's head? Who, by the way, has a family of their own. How can that possibly make you feel better?

Your coldness is creepy.

 

[darscot]

First my tag is a reference to my crappy spelling.

My point is simply that all people you me everybody has a limit. You do enough horrible things to them intentional or otherwise there going to eventually go nuts and do crazy stuff.

These people have had some pretty horrible things done to them. I'm not trying to justify what they are doing just saying that a mile in someone shoes can give you new perspective.

Call it cold call it what you want somebody kills my family things are going to get messy.

 

[Tenguman]

Drunk drivers kill people everyday. Maybe someone should pick some random person in a bar and saw their head off for those crimes. Or better yet, pick up a random bartender and saw his head off since he's one of those supplying the drinks.

IT'S JUST STUPID

 

[darscot]

Come on guys were not talking about drunk drivers. You guys have to try and see the big picture. Both sides of this conflict are doing equally horrible things to each other. What is the difference between dropping a bomb on a house and killing everyone in it. Or cutting of someone's head. In the end there all innocent and all dead and both acts are equally stupid. Don't get in an uproar for one and say oh well to the other.

 

[Cooter]

You know darsoct, I'm with you on the family example to an extent.

I agree with you that if someone kills my family I will undoubtedly seek revenge. The difference is that I would do so on the people responsible for their deaths. I would not go on a rampage and start savagely beheading the next person I saw.

Also, these terrorists in Al-Qaeda did not behead the American because a US bomb killed their family. Let's get real here. These people are full of evil and sickness. You can make up scenarios why they might do this or that but bottom line is they have paper thin reasons and are looking for an excuse to show their uncivil disgusting reason for being.

 

[Tenguman]

My point is--- when it comes down to it, it's an innocent person paying the price for the crimes of another. That's wrong, no matter who's doing it -- US or Arabs.

anyone who doesn't know this is one cold hearted bastard.

 

[Che]

The difference is were not talking about looking at pictures. Were talking about bombs falling on houses and people being tortured in prisons. What would you do if the some group grabed your Dad by mistake and beat him to death in some bullshit prison? Or blew up your house and killed your children. I don't agree with what these people are doing. I wish I could say I wouldn't do the same thing if I had to walk a mile their shoes. You bomb my house and kill my family I might just go nuts and start lopping of heads myself.

Word.

 

[Open Source]

First my tag is a reference to my crappy spelling.

My point is simply that all people you me everybody has a limit. You do enough horrible things to them intentional or otherwise there going to eventually go nuts and do crazy stuff.

These people have had some pretty horrible things done to them. I'm not trying to justify what they are doing just saying that a mile in someone shoes can give you new perspective.

Call it cold call it what you want somebody kills my family things are going to get messy.

These people have had pretty horrible things done to them...by themselves. You think the U.S. prison abuse was anywhere near what Saddam and his kids did? How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis did the U.S. execute? How does putting naked people in a pyramid compare to cutting off girls' heads and putting them on their families' doorsteps?

What I think is happening is that people say, "well, the one thing I know is that Bush is wrong because he's not a Democrat. Therefore, the terrorists must be right, or at least misunderstood, and what they do must be at least somewhat excusable." Sad.

 

[darscot]

Sorry I just can't blindly stereo-type them as a evil. Yes this was an evil act. Done by people that I agree should no longer be breathing. But why is this happening? Do think these people were skipping along happy as could be then decided today I hate America I'm going to lop off someones head. I'm a cause and effect, action reaction kind of thinker.

 

[Cooter]

Come on guys were not talking about drunk drivers. You guys have to try and see the big picture. Both sides of this conflict are doing equally horrible things to each other. What is the difference between dropping a bomb on a house and killing everyone in it. Or cutting of someone's head. In the end there all innocent and all dead and both acts are equally stupid. Don't get in an uproar for one and say oh well to the other.

Darscot, you act as if US military planners were sitting around trying to see how many innocent people they could kill. Every innocent killed during the war was unintentional and an accident. The United States took extreme measures to limit the amount of civilian casualties and if you can't see that then I don't know what to say to you.

If the goal of the US was to kill innocents don't you think we could have done a much better job than we did?

 

[Che]

These people have had pretty horrible things done to them...by themselves. You think the U.S. prison abuse was anywhere near what Saddam and his kids did? How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis did the U.S. execute? How does putting naked people in a pyramid compare to cutting off girls' heads and putting them on their families' doorsteps?

What I think is happening is that people say, "well, the one thing I know is that Bush is wrong because he's not a Democrat. Therefore, the terrorists must be right, or at least misunderstood, and what they do must be at least somewhat excusable." Sad.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Saddam was appointed as a dictator by the US. One of the dozens dictatorships US installed...

 

[darscot]

Wow, I wish I had that kind of faith. Unintentional and an accident my ass. You honestly believe if the US had "inteligence" that Bin Laden and all his band of not so merry men were in say a shopping center they wouldn't bomb it back into the stone age. They would do it in the blink of an eye and kill everyone there? Its a war both side kill whomever they feel they need in order to protect their own. Don't pretend a war is about right and wrong. It's about horror an attrocity by everyone involved.

 

[Open Source]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Saddam was appointed as a dictator by the US. One of the dozens dictatorships US installed...

Wrong. Facts are a bitch, aren't they?

 

[Cooter]

Fine darscot, I give up.

The US started this war with Iraq so they could kill lots and lots of innocent people.

Happy?

I'm out.

 

[Open Source]

Wow, I wish I had that kind of faith. Unintentional and an accident my ass. You honestly believe if the US had "inteligence" that Bin Laden and all his band of not so merry men were in say a shopping center they wouldn't bomb it back into the stone age. They would do it in the blink of an eye and kill everyone there? Its a war both side kill whomever they feel they need in order to protect their own. Don't pretend a war is about right and wrong. It's about horror an attrocity by everyone involved.

Do you think war is never justified?

 

[Guileless]

i do think that if no one ever killed each other the world would be a great place, and you might even agree.

Well no shit the world would be a great place if people didn't kill each other. But you know what fart? There will always be people who want to kill you and take your property. That's human nature, and it's not changing. We in the West have lives of unparalleled personal freedom and comfort and have largely isolated ourselves from the vagaries of human life. We are the happy exception to the rule, and sometimes we have to use violence to stop people who want to change things.


evolutionVII, the western companies would not be there unless the Arabs needed them. Saudi Arabia would not pay them to do the work if they could do it themselves. When was the last time you bought an Arab car or DVD player? If you are right and the Arabs could do all this, why don't they?

 

[darscot]

I never said or suggested any such thing. Don't make an outlandish claim with no relevence. All I'm trying to say is don't pretend killing by one side is horrible and evil but killing by the other is justified. I don't even want to debate on why the US is there actually it's irrelavent.

 

[darscot]

In the modern age large scale conflict is never justified. I don't care to debate the past and if they should or shouldn't have done this or that. Lets just stick to right now. No there is no reason to invade a nation by force. You just can't win.

 

[FightyF]

They were going to kill him regardless. But Saudi Arabia could do more to protect the Americans there, but I really don't think they are much of an "ally" and probably don't really give a damn.

That is a disservice to all those Saudi Anti-Terrorist forces who've fought and died fighting these terrorists.

These people, who are on the front lines, actually trading bullets with terrorists, have families too. They have children, they have aspirations, they have goals in life, and they trade all that in fighting with these terrorists and losing their lives in the process.

The same applies to criticism of Pakistan and how it's dealing with the situation there. MANY Pakistanis have died fighting terrorism, yet there are some people in the US who still like to criticize their efforts. It's one thing to say that it's not enough, but it's another to question their motives and efforts.

Tell me Half, what invasion by the American military prompted Al Qaeda to send two passenger planes into TWC?

The attack against the WTC has more to do with how the US sanctions Muslim countries and supports countries that are oppressing Muslim people. It was a response to how the US's foriegn policy is laid out when it comes to economics, rather than an attempt to hurt the US's military. Secondly, realize that these people don't think too much about what they are doing. It's a knee jerk reaction to say that "Ok, they are killing our people, we must avenge!" and then do something like that, without thinking of how it will benefit your "cause" or alleviate the suffering of people by causing more suffering.

So you want to pursue a foreign policy designed to not "piss off" terrorists. What would that be exactly?

How about a policy that doesn't create terrorists?

None of these people hated the US when it was formed. None of these people hated the US 100 years ago. Most didn't hate the US 50 years ago.

Why all the hate now? It's the recent actions of the US, which you will agree is hypocritical, that piss people off. Each time an Arab sees their home demolished by an American bulldozer, or their children shot by American bullets, or their streets taken over by American made tanks, they'll feel something for the US within their hearts, and it's not warm and fuzzy.

That extends to everyone who does business with the US. Pakistan, long ago, paid the US $8 billion for a few F-16s. They didn't get those F-16s, and didn't get a straight response until after 9/11 when they helped the US fight against the Taliban, when the US simply said that "this $8 billion makes up for sanctions we would have put on you". Do you think that Pakistan, is going to trust the US with money ever again?

If the US was fair on issues such as what's happening in Israel, more people would be fair to the US.

Think on this, if the US liberated Palestine rather than Iraq, the US's image in the Middle East and all over the World would be seen unanimously as a "good guy", and if they also established a democracy in that country, you'd see the rest of the Arab countries follow suit within the decade. Arabs, and the World, would respect the US and consider it a fair country. By giving liberty to a nation that needs it so badly, it would seem very generous, and it would make other attempts to help the nation (like Saddam giving money to terrorist's families) as obsolete and pathetic attempts. But I digress...

Unreasonable actions by the US has prompted and triggered an equally unreasonable response. If these people on the other side of the World ever tried a reasonable response, I'm sure most Americans would support their cause, as long as they behaved reasonably and non-violently.

So what can the US government do right now to lessen the negative feelings toward the US? I think that the American government should extend their hand and show people all across the globe that they are willing to address certain issues. Even the open discussion of issues would get people thinking that "hey, the US may not be so bad after all".

 

[rastex]

Darscot, you act as if US military planners were sitting around trying to see how many innocent people they could kill. Every innocent killed during the war was unintentional and an accident. The United States took extreme measures to limit the amount of civilian casualties and if you can't see that then I don't know what to say to you.

If the goal of the US was to kill innocents don't you think we could have done a much better job than we did?

Well, if they really didn't want to kill any innocent people then they didn't have to drop ANY bombs whatsoever right? I mean, then nobody would have died. Oh but wait, you're going to say we had to liberate the Iraqi people (or take down Saddam because he was a threat to America or the world, or whatever). Ok, so essentially, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that some innocent deaths are ok as long as they're not intentional and are an unfortunate side-effect of some "greater good". Now, America sees removing Saddam as a greater good, and so as I said, killing some innocent people "unintentionally" is worth that.

"Terrorst" perspective - removing American influence from the Middle East is a greater good, if some people have to be killed for that reason (to scare/intimidate them into leaving) then that's unfortunate. Dropping a bomb on a city is just as "unintentional" as cutting someone's head off.

From both perspectives murdering of innocents is acceptable as an "unintentional" but more importantly "UNAVOIDABLE" phenomenon. Do you really not see the parallels? I mean, seriously, do you not see how the EXACT same thinking can be applied to both the American and Saudi actions?

I mean, if you want to get really technical the actions of the Americans can be seen as even MORE evil as the innocent people the bombs massacre have no choice in the matter. They are living in their homes where they grew up, they can't leave where they are, they're not helping anyone in any way and yet they're killed indiscriminantly (sp?). Whereas this Johnson guy was there representing an American company. An American company that is profiting from the woes the arabs are suffering and thus can be construed as maybe not one of the causes but an enabler to the suffering the arabs are feeling. And this man was there helping this company that was helping the people who are killing their relatives out of his own WILL.

I'm not justifying the acts, I'm showing you how simply labelling people as "Evil and crazy" gets you absolutely nowhere in understanding the situation. As soon as you realize that there are pretty much NO good sides to pretty much ANY conflict will you start to understand how people can commit such acts. When innocent people are killed in other countries Americans shrug their shoulders and say "War's hell", but when they get hit back it's because of "pure evil!" Just recognize that almost all forms of war are evil, and in this day and age definitely ALL without exception.

 

[Open Source]

Killing and violence are justified when they are necessary to protect innocent people. Sometimes, no matter how much it pains you to accept it, innocent people have to die so that other innocent people can be protected. If the U.S. had acted earlier, maybe hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis would be alive today, but by acting when they did, perhaps hundreds of thousands more did not have to die. They were not any more or less deserving of death than the innocent civilians who died during the war.

In other words, far more innocent people would have died without the war. And sadly, that's what you wanted to happen.

 

[Open Source]

So what can the US government do right now to lessen the negative feelings toward the US? I think that the American government should extend their hand and show people all across the globe that they are willing to address certain issues. Even the open discussion of issues would get people thinking that "hey, the US may not be so bad after all".

So what are those issues, specifically? Not doing business with other countries, so that American products are never misused by those countries? Saying, "well, your terrorism's working. It's convinced us that you are right." Allowing development of nuclear weapons by Iran? Dissolving Israel because Muslims find it offensive? Fighting against democratic reforms to keep power in the hands of religious fanatics?

 

[Open Source]

In the modern age large scale conflict is never justified. I don't care to debate the past and if they should or shouldn't have done this or that. Lets just stick to right now. No there is no reason to invade a nation by force. You just can't win.

Well, I think that sums up the anti-war view nicely. Let injustice and oppression wreak havok, until it reaches me. Then I will blame you for not doing anything to stop it.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Fuckers.

 

[darscot]

Next all be a tree hugger. My family has been soldiers since god knows when. So save the stereo-types. There is has been injustice in oppresion in the middle east for 50 years and suddenly its a problem. Christ I hate this bullshit how long did the US sit home in WW2?

 

[narfnarf]

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."

Peace will not come out of a clash of arms but out of justice lived and
done by unarmed nations in the face of odds.- Mhatma Ghandi

and one of my personal favorites "Fighting for peace is like fu**ing for virginity"

 

[FightyF]

In other words, far more innocent people would have died without the war. And sadly, that's what you wanted to happen.

Died at who's hands? The US's or Saddam's? Saddam killed political opponents, the sanctions killed innocent people. Pick your poison, but the average Iraqi would have been fine without an invasion. Better yet, with all of the political pressure put on Saddam, with the World's eyes on the country, he wasn't able to even jail people without people knowing it.

So what are those issues, specifically?

Here are two poignant examples:
1) Not allowing a democratally elected government to take power in Algeria.

2) Allowing (and turning a blind eye) to Israel's human rights abuses, and allowing the occupation to occur.

Not doing business with other countries, so that American products are never misused by those countries?

I'm not saying that, but if that were the case, we wouldn't be yapping about Saddam using chemical weapons he bought from us on innocent people.

Saying, "well, your terrorism's working. It's convinced us that you are right."

Who said that?

Allowing development of nuclear weapons by Iran? Dissolving Israel because Muslims find it offensive?

Beautiful! Here is a good example. How come Iran can't have weapons, while Israel can? Though if you look at international law, neither country can carry nuclear arms!

Also, no one is asking for the dissolving of Israel, but rather that Israel starts complying with International laws.

In 2000, an American was detained and tortured by Israelis. The US didn't do much for his release, and it took some good hearted Israelis to have him released. What does this tell people? What kind of signals are we sending people around the World?

Fighting against democratic reforms to keep power in the hands of religious fanatics?

Another great example. How about the democratic reforms as far as Gay marriage is concerned? Why is it the case that these reforms MUST occur all over the World, yet not in the US? People look at that, point at it, and say, "These people are hypocrites".

So ok, fine, the US has messed up, and no one is perfect. But I think it's important for us to learn from these mistakes, and send the message to the World that we are willing to be reasonable, to avoid repeating these mistakes, and that through dialogue (AND ONLY THROUGH DIALOGUE) we'll see change. If anyone wants to resort to terrorism, nothing is going to change one bit. We are giving people an OPTION. Right now, they don't see any option. The terrorist ideology that is being preached is "kill or be killed". Their ideology says that "they kill us because we are Muslim (point to example A through Z) and we have no choice but to fight back". Let's make them look like liars, and start by agreeing to (at least) the discussion of certain issues affecting them.

 

[Kettch]

Wow, I'm being accused of stupidity by people who can't read.

Open Source
Holy cow, you are incredibly stupid. I mean, how could any sane person say something like this?

"Well, I saw pictures of an American beheaded so I went out and killed Muslims. And the people who beheaded the American are partly responsible for those Muslims' deaths."

It's scary how out of touch with rational thought some people are.

Kettch
hold others responsible for giving them further motivation

Does not equal:

Open Source Analogy
partly responsible for those Muslims' deaths

Do you see the difference between holding people responsible for giving militants further motivation (justified), and holding people responsible for the acts committed by the militants (not justified) now?

MSW
You just don't get it.

There can be no possible motivation to pull a complete stranger off the street and brutally saw his head off.

Kettch
The blame for this act lies with these militants

I have no idea what you're reading, MSW.

 

[Xenon]

Died at who's hands? The US's or Saddam's? Saddam killed political opponents, the sanctions killed innocent people. Pick your poison, but the average Iraqi would have been fine without an invasion. Better yet, with all of the political pressure put on Saddam, with the World's eyes on the country, he wasn't able to even jail people without people knowing it.

Actually the majority of Iraqis dieing now are at the terrorists hands, not Americans. But hey they are fighting to prevent Iraq from becoming a puppet government of the west so I guess it’s a noble cause. Look what happened when we went in to rebuild Japan. Next thing you know people would actually start to think on their own and that would take the power out of their leaders hands.

2) Allowing (and turning a blind eye) to Israel's human rights abuses, and allowing the occupation to occur.

As long as Israel's acts are over shadowed by the acts of terrorists that will never happen. As long as the majority of the Middle east turns a blind eye to terrorist groups and their supporters, its not going to happen. To me it just looks like Israel is just using extreme measures to fight extreme measures. Every time I see a buss load of kids dead I think, what a bunch of ignorant animals. Not evil, just ignorant filthy stupid worthless rabid animals. That’s what they are, actually that's more insulting to the animals, and I don't see any major effort in the Middle East to change that. If rest of the Middle East is so concerned about the Palestinians, why don’t they help build schools and homes for them, instead of handing their children bombs. Oh that’s right it wouldn’t help get rid of Israel. They can't do that with someone who has something to live for.



oh yeah, to the dude who brought up gay marriage, at least here people can admit they're gay, athiest or christian.

 

[FightyF]

Actually the majority of Iraqis dieing now are at the terrorists hands, not Americans.

I was referring to before the invasion actually. As far as numbers go, more innocent Iraqis died at the wedding than in a month by terrorists in Iraq. But that's besides the point. The American bombing was a mistake while these other attacks are premeditated.

As long as Israel's acts are over shadowed by the acts of terrorists that will never happen. As long as the majority of the Middle east turns a blind eye to terrorist groups and their supporters, its not going to happen. To me it just looks like Israel is just using extreme measures to fight extreme measures.

Overshadowed? Tell me, why is it so that an Israeli life means so much and a Palestinian one means so little to you? This attitude is one reason, why people over there hate us. During the past few months, there has been very few terrorist attacks, yet Israel has been carrying out attacks on refugee camps almost every week.

Every time I see a buss load of kids dead I think, what a bunch of ignorant animals.

There has only been one case (that I know of) where a bus load of kids were blown up, and it was a Lebonese school bus blown up by Israel missiles! That occurred in the 80's.

Not evil, just ignorant filthy stupid worthless rabid animals. That’s what they are, actually that's more insulting to the animals, and I don't see any major effort in the Middle East to change that.

That's a racist attitude that exists here and also in the Israel knesset. Frankly, if there is any parrallel being made to WW2 and Nazis, its this attitude. To consider another people (with a mass generalization) as animals, is no different than the Nazi-Germany attitude towards Jews. You're attitude is no different than those Israelis who want to expel all Palestinians into Jordan, and those Palestinian extremists who want to expel all Jews into the sea.

If rest of the Middle East is so concerned about the Palestinians, why don’t they help build schools and homes for them, instead of handing their children bombs.

There are groups that do this. They too, feel the repurcussions of trying to help these people. A local Christian-based organization was giving a talk at the University on how they faced aggression, bullets, and traps set by the Israeli Army just because they are trying to HELP people.

Sorry to get off-topic somewhat, but it does tie into this whole thing about why we are hated.

If you want to disagree with me, let's take it to PMs, PM me if you need clarification on anything.

Back to the main topic, apparently the grieving wife was shown on Arab TV networks and she talked a bit. This may seem like a small thing to some of you, but I think it's extremely important. Judging from I've read, there has been an outrage in that region regarding this kidnapping, but this will only increase that.

Secondly, after the Berg decapitation, where many people questioned the timing and validity, this one won't be subjugated to any skepticism from anyone.

I've seen some criticism of how the Saudi government handled it, but I don't think much of it is actually any helpful. I'm surprised to see that there hasn't been any focus on intelligence gathering on the Saudis part. That's key IMO.

 

[ManDudeChild]

Eh, I was talking about the Nick Berg incident. Not this new one. I won't view any pictures or video either.

Either I'm even more earning impared than I thought, or there are two versions of that video. I didn't hear any screaming.

 

[Che]

Open Source plz get a clue about what's going on the world and then come back and discuss. Your arguments are childish man. You talk about oppression when US has installed dozens of dictatorships (and yes Saddam's was "sponsored" by USA). You talk about innocents when over half a million kids have died in Iraq the last ten years cos of the US embargo the radioactive bombs which cause cancer and the "accidental" bombings in public buildings. You're obviously ignorant, that I can accept, but offending others and talking like you know more, is just plain stupid.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

It's ironic, because what truly holds us back from wiping these groups out are the same democratic and ethical principals we supposedly "fight" for. Of course the reality is that war of whatever nature is filled with brutality though you have to have quite a distance and ingrained filter to believe cutting someone's head off on television and accidently bombing a civilian house somehow are the same act. It's like an ethical telescope that zooms in and out, in and out.

Still, we're not at the point yet where we can stop these sorts of actions. Maybe we never could anyway. As Machiavelli has noted, sometimes you have to respect the Christ..and sometimes you have to be a Prince. If we want to stop kidnappings in exchange for Al-Queda prisoners maybe tonight they should march 10 prisoners out into the courtyard and shoot them in the head. Then broadcast it.

Of course, that would be barbaric.

 

[Xenon]

Overshadowed? Tell me, why is it so that an Israeli life means so much and a Palestinian one means so little to you? This attitude is one reason, why people over there hate us. During the past few months, there has been very few terrorist attacks, yet Israel has been carrying out attacks on refugee camps almost every week.

The terrorists have turned civilians into soldiers by sending their wives and children into battle. How can an army fight that without attacking civilian settlements? They march against armed soldiers with their CHILDREN! Then they have the fucking gall to hold up their dead bodies and scream "Look what you have done" FUCK THAT AND FUCK THEM! They take their future and throw it at their enemy like a grenade leaving only a blood stain legacy. It is the greatest crime a human being can commit. If you can’t see that, then I pity you.

That's a racist attitude that exists here and also in the Israel knesset. Frankly, if there is any parrallel being made to WW2 and Nazis, its this attitude. To consider another people (with a mass generalization) as animals, is no different than the Nazi-Germany attitude towards Jews.

Racist? WTF? Did I say ALL Palestinians? I think it was clear I was talking about the terrorists and those who carry out terrorist acts and hand bombs to children. If terrorists are their own race then yes I am racist.

And the difference is the Jews were not bombing cafe's and buses. The jews were not being fueled by centuries of racial hate. The very fact that you would even say something like that lets me know just how far lost you are in this. If any group matches Nazis it would be the terrorist groups like Hamas who prey upon a depressed people and use propaganda and hate to further their cause.

As long as they allow terrorists to act as their voice I will not listen.

 

[kaching]

i agree that there is a level of personal responsibility (one we have not seen from the us military but i digress), but remember this is politics.

Yes, politics - the artificial layers we drape over the reasons for our actions which are always much simpler than we like to admit.

the responsibility is shared because, looking at the last 100 years holistically, it is not only one person who has committed a vicious, atrocious act of violence like this, it's groups of people, and these groups of people don't live in a vacuum, they're influenced by each other and so on and so on.

Environmental influences do not make decisions for individuals. Faced with any situation, an individual will always have a choice and that choice is theirs alone to make. Responsibility is not shared, it merely coincides. Any and every individual can become a ward against violence simply by refusing to contribute to or commit their own acts of violence.

the best thing you can do is learn as much as you can about the history of the world and the current state of the world before going off on your internet rampage against this or that evil dictator or evil president or evil terrorist.

You're wandering a little far afield here for a post that is ostensibly a response to mine. There's no "internet rampage" in my comment, merely the observation that individuals continue to dodge personal responsibility in the name of causes and socioeconomic influences that they claim can somehow account for their personal actions better than their own internal motivations. I've learned enough about human history and current events to know that's the underlying theme.

even the topic of this thread completely misrepresents the nature of events today. the terrorists killed that guy? who are these "terrorists"? at one level they're petty criminals, at another, they're political revolutionaries, and so on and so on and so on. who is that guy? he's a guy, right? but he's also an american, and not only that, but he's an american in a foreign country, a contract worker. these are all people, and people are not as simple as we'd like to think

People's intentions are quite simple, it's their justifications that can be complex. If you really wanted to be accurate about how to describe this action/event you wouldn't pander to the justifications like you do above, you'd simply focus on the basic intention: to kill a human being, trading on that life in hopes of personal gain and/or satisfaction.

 

[FightyF]

The terrorists have turned civilians into soldiers by sending their wives and children into battle. How can an army fight that without attacking civilian settlements?

So attacking a refugee camp is permissable since the terrorists came from there.

This is the same arguement used by Palestinian extremists. We can bomb Tel Aviv, because the soldiers that kill us come from there.

If you don't realize that Israel has the right to defend itself (ie. within it's borders, or ON it's borders) but cannot walk into a refugee camp or city and kill people (most Palestinians who have died were not terrorists nor affiliated with terrorist orgs), then that means you are condoning the human rights violations they are committing. (and on the flip side, atrocities committed by Palestinian extremists)

They march against armed soldiers with their CHILDREN! Then they have the fucking gall to hold up their dead bodies and scream "Look what you have done" FUCK THAT AND FUCK THEM!

Years ago I've heard that the average age of a Palestinian is 4.5 year old. That astonishing number is a result of many things, the poor state of hospitals, the killing and arrests of older Palestinians, etc. The fact that many kids die has a large part to do with the fact that most of them ARE young.

The last example of Palestinian youth that died (that gained widespread attention) were the brother and sister who were on the roof taking down their laundry, who were sniped. Were they hiding behind anyone as you claim? Actually, I'd like for you to back up this claim.

You claimed that Palestinians blowed up a bus-load of children, while I pointed out that it was the Israelis who did it on one occassion. Taking that into account, I don't trust your claim at all.

Racist? WTF? Did I say ALL Palestinians? I think it was clear I was talking about the terrorists and those who carry out terrorist acts and hand bombs to children. If terrorists are their own race then yes I am racist.

I apologize, I thought you were referring to all Palestinians. The language you used is the exact language used by right-wing extremists in the Knesset, and that clouded my judgement and led me to prejudge your statement. I'm sorry.

And the difference is the Jews were not bombing cafe's and buses.

The "Jews" or the "Israelis"? Plus, Palestinian businesses, from barber shops, to cafes have been blown to bits by Israelis far more often than a Israeli cafes getting blown up. You are seemingly ignoring this fact, as if Palestinian city squares are untouched by violence.

The jews were not being fueled by centuries of racial hate.

History shows that for hundreds of years (which translate to centuries), Jews and Arabs have been living side by side in peace and harmony.

In fact, there are many arguements Arab Jews are considered second class in Israel, with European Jews seemingly dominant in all facets of society. Personally, I'd agree to an extent, but there are examples of Iranian Jews (ok, not exactly Arab) in high positions of the government.

It's far better for you to PM me. It saves you some embarrasment

Back to the original topic

Apparently this American was interested in Islam and becoming Muslim, causing even more outrage among Saudis and Muslims all around the world concerning this beheading.

I often think that the ideological front of this War on Terrorism has been mishandled thus far. The strategy is to simply "kill all those who may hate the US", rather than to attack the ideology of anti-Americanism, which is a recent phenomenon. This sad situation may be a turning point as far as destroying the ideology of "freedom fighting". People in that region of the World are starting to realize that these people are ignoring religion and becoming brutes.

People here have to realize that just as a few Americans were quick to defend the atrocities committed at Abu Ghraib prison, there were a few Muslims who were quick to defend anti-American actions done by terrorists. This latest brutality seems to be unanimously denounced. It's a start.

You may think this is odd, but I think that Saudi Arabia is a good front for the World vs. Terrorism. It's the homeland of Islam if anything, and making this an "Islam and Muslims vs. Terrorism" rather than "Bush vs. Terrorism" is a good thing IMO. I'll save that essay for another day.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

I often think that the ideological front of this War on Terrorism has been mishandled thus far. The strategy is to simply "kill all those who may hate the US", rather than to attack the ideology of anti-Americanism, which is a recent phenomenon. This sad situation may be a turning point as far as destroying the ideology of "freedom fighting". People in that region of the World are starting to realize that these people are ignoring religion and becoming brutes.

People here have to realize that just as a few Americans were quick to defend the atrocities committed at Abu Ghraib prison, there were a few Muslims who were quick to defend anti-American actions done by terrorists. This latest brutality seems to be unanimously denounced. It's a start.

You may think this is odd, but I think that Saudi Arabia is a good front for the World vs. Terrorism. It's the homeland of Islam if anything, and making this an "Islam and Muslims vs. Terrorism" rather than "Bush vs. Terrorism" is a good thing IMO. I'll save that essay for another day.

IAWTP

 

[effzee]

why is that when people read the postings of some terrorist online they claim its from a islamic site?


i was just watching fox news talking about that al qaeda dude the saudis killed and how he used to post on this website about his work. instead of calling it the "terrorists site" this correspondent called it a "islamic site". nice choice of words there.


and did anyone else here the tirade that bill o reilly went on? i heard he somewhere said something about bombing all of the middle east because they were not as responsive to the US as they should be or something.


hey bill what happened to ur own claim of blaming the govt if no WMDs were found few months after the war?

edit: found the bill o reilly shit....
http://mediamatters.org/static/audio/oreilly-20040616.mp3

From the June 17 broadcast of The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: Because look ... when 2 percent of the population feels that you're doing them a favor, just forget it, you're not going to win. You're not going to win. And I don't have any respect by and large for the Iraqi people at all. I have no respect for them. I think that they're a prehistoric group that is -- yeah, there's excuses.

Sure, they're terrorized, they've never known freedom, all of that. There's excuses. I understand. But I don't have to respect them because you know when you have Americans dying trying to you know institute some kind of democracy there, and 2 percent of the people appreciate it, you know, it's time to -- time to wise up.

And this teaches us a big lesson, that we cannot intervene in the Muslim world ever again. What we can do is bomb the living daylights out of them, just like we did in the Balkans. Just as we did in the Balkans. Bomb the living daylights out of them. But no more ground troops, no more hearts and minds, ain't going to work.

[...]

They're just people who are primitive.

 

[sprsk]

why is that when people read the postings of some terrorist online they claim its from a islamic site

i was just watching fox news

 

[effzee]

lol ok that was my own fault but it really irks me that key words like that can be thrown around and if i notice them then im sure others do as well...others who dont seperate the two.

 

[Guileless]

Oh boy, another thread diverted into arguments about Israel. Here's my stock answer: Yes, the British & French colonial officers messed up. Tell them about it. The US gives as much aid to Egypt as it does to Israel. Six wars have been fought and Israel won every time, give it up and make the best of things.

How about a policy that doesn't create terrorists?

Are you saying that American foreign policy, in and of itself, "created" the terrorists? As I have said a million times, I realize that the people who make American foreign policy have made errors. I also understand that every country on the earth has made foreign policy errors. I don't understand how some people think a reasonable response to disagreement with American foreign policy is to hijack planes and steer them into buildings.

 

[xsarien]

I don't understand how some people think a reasonable response to disagreement with American foreign policy is to hijack planes and steer them into buildings.

No one's saying it's a reasonable response, but it's the response of extremists nonetheless. It's what happens when you mix politics into religion and try to equate them. The bottom line is that current U.S. foreign policy "creates" these people in the same way that rampant pollution "creates" organizations like Greenpeace. People have feelings, and if those feelings are strong enough, they act.

But of course, I sometimes think that politicians would sooner wait for another attack than even start down the road of Mea Culpas. Our middle east policy incites people, and Bush's approach to the region has only made what was already a bad situation worse.

 

[Evolution VIII]

evolutionVII, the western companies would not be there unless the Arabs needed them. Saudi Arabia would not pay them to do the work if they could do it themselves. When was the last time you bought an Arab car or DVD player? If you are right and the Arabs could do all this, why don't they?

Maybe because of a certain thing called trade. The reason you don't see Arab cars or DVD players is because they don't have the resources to make those kinds of items. They do, however, have all kinds of resources to extract oil. After all, the western companies aren't over their to advance the well-being of the Arab community as much as they're over there to make sure there is a good return on their investment.

 

[Guileless]

evolutionVIII, I don't understand what you are saying. Western companies are there to extract the oil because they are the most capable of doing it profitably. The western companies are there because of superior expertise and capitalization. They would not be there behind huge walls, costing the Saudis a fortune in security costs, unless they had to be. I'm not making this up, nor do I have any reason to do so.

xsarien, there's cause and there's proximate cause. What's the proximate cause of Islamic terrorism, American foreign policy or the conditions in those countries? And who's more responsible for the terrible conditions there, the US or the people who live there? South Korea and the other succesful Asian economies were roughly equal in GDP to the Arab countries at the end of WW2, now there's a huge, and growing, disparity.

 

[Kuroyume]

Looks like another beheading will come soon...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123198,00.html

Btw, you guys should see these new toture videos up on Ogr... that took place during Saddam's reign...

-people having their tounges cut with razors
-amputations clinical and with machetes
-beheadings
-beatings
-thrown off high places with hands tied behind their backs

Apparently this video was released in October... I wonder why this video isn't being brought up more...

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

why is that when people read the postings of some terrorist online they claim its from a islamic site?


i was just watching fox news talking about that al qaeda dude the saudis killed and how he used to post on this website about his work. instead of calling it the "terrorists site" this correspondent called it a "islamic site". nice choice of words there.


and did anyone else here the tirade that bill o reilly went on? i heard he somewhere said something about bombing all of the middle east because they were not as responsive to the US as they should be or something.


hey bill what happened to ur own claim of blaming the govt if no WMDs were found few months after the war?

edit: found the bill o reilly shit....
http://mediamatters.org/static/audio/oreilly-20040616.mp3

Cuz people are assholes. Why isn't David Duke called a terrorist? Why aren't the KKK called terrorists? Cuz they haven't done violent acts in recent history? Similar methods were done in the past to what we see done today but different labels. Terrorism and the 'fight for freedom' and freedom fighters are terms based on perspective. A few hundred years ago, America would have been labeled terrorists by England when all we thought we were doing was fighting for freedom. How will we look on 'Islamic extremists' and 'terrorists' 200 years into the future? I guess it depends on how their fight ends up.

I'm not trying to say the 'terrorists' of today are using the same actions as George Washington but if England wasn't so much in our back pockets, then they might have and would still label him a filthy Christian fundamentalist and terrorist. Or whatever.