jimbobsmells
Member
No. It really doesn't mean that at all.
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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accel
Member
OK, then I alter my initial post to just "please not Obama". Won't discuss whether the EU means bigger government, not now.
So despite as you say systematic use of fear tactics and blackmail by the ruling class in favor of the EU, and despite their lobbyist being so powerful to the point of owning Brussels, brexit still happened?
Once again then got to say that the ruling class does an absolutely atrocious job.
figadapaura
Member
Hey, do you love Europe, and feel that newspapers have been a bit rubbish? Well why not get the new, limited edition, pop up newspaper, The New European!
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/exclusive-new-national-newspaper-launched-for-british-people
I'd actually be quite interested in reading something like that. Hopefully I can get a copy.
jimbobsmells
Member
Thank you. Even among remain voters, 'ever closer union' (bigger government) is a contentious issue.
You could always check out the English edition of the so called opinion magazine "The European"
Not sure if praying would work, but going back to the good old paying the church for holy divine rights would certainly benefit 1 economy.
Yep I've been saying this for a while, history will be very kind to Angela. I hold her up there with truly great leaders.
Juncker the local dictator will just have to wait to destroy the EU another day.
inoperativ
Member
This is really interesting, thanks. I wonder what they decided about the chance of a second referendum -- while it is Remain voters that are taking to the streets at the moment it's hard to imagine Leave voters would accept narrowly losing a second referendum, and with the way FPTP works out it looks very likely they would be able to take control of parliament in the next GE if things come to that (early study).
I'm worried the UK is headed for years of political unrest no matter what happens at this point.
Very interesting. That could also explain why Juncker went straight into confrontation mode with the Canadian trade deal. I'm not sure I like the prospect of Germany having more power over the other big nations though. It's quite telling how Merkel wanted the Eastern Bloc on her side first, she knows it could've been very difficult to get her will if they agreed with France instead.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
She's a Brexit supporter, so she's in good company.
GamerMax73
Member
Gove
I was watching Gove getting slaughtered on Andrew Marr this morning and was picturing this - what is it called?
Now though I'm seeing Martin Clunes...
bryanee
Member
Pob?
Aye thats Pob.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Oh aside from that tiny detail huh? The European South isn't and neither was Ireland. Even after Ireland was released from the clutches of the EU neoliberal regime its population still hasn't recovered. And I purposely say population instead of economy because economic numbers rarely reflect the actual reality in the country, hell even unemployment numbers don't in many occasions where the neoliberal fucks have crippled labour rights to decimate full pay jobs, increase part time positions, reduce salaries and layoff protections while deceiving the public with cooked numbers.
I actually agree with that, but since the right and far right were leading the campaign I wouldn't expect any better. So did the Stay campaign btw with its moronic narrative about the benevolent EU and the racist Leave voters.
Facts are now "meaningless buzzwords". Do you want me to link you to articles about ho terribly planned Euro is (maybe deliberately but that's a different discussion) and why it will fuck up again in the next crisis? I had another one in mind but since there are people who will definitely complain about the source not being a known corporate media conglomerate, here's one from the economist explaining in pretty simple terms the problem euro has in its very foundations: http://www.economist.com/news/finan...d-holds-worrying-lessons-single-currency-trio
And btw you sure are paying a steep premium for a fad like a common currency to travel wherever you want in Europe. You do realize that you can easily exchange currencies, right? You do realize that most people don't leave their countries that often, right?
No, Corbyn knows how to play the game in a rotten system. At the current state the political system is there is no other option. The Labour Party is just another neoliberal party pretending to be left like the vast majority of "socialist" parties in Europe. There is no other way to take them over and put actual leftists in powerful positions other than try to at least not antagonize the corporate puppets controlling these parties for now.
The weak are already suffering. The goal now is to stop their suffering instead of prolonging it with what I call appeasers of neoliberalism aka the liberal fuckwits who want a more humane neoliberalism as if such thing could ever exist.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Sometimes I think there should be a ban on the use of the phrase "neoliberal" in political discussion; either that or a compulsory law that anyone using it must attach an N.B. defining it accurately.
Most people would say, but but they have Google, Amazon and all those big companies over there providing jobs. This argument is used so much i just switch off whenever someone mentions of one those company's above.
Camp Freddie
Member
This. If the EU is neoliberal then that term has become as useful as 'fascism' in describing a political ideology. It's just an insult at this point.
The EU is broadly left liberal with elements of classical liberalism and socialism thrown in. It almost defies ideological classification because the member states' leaders come from a broad range of European political philosophies.
The Rain King
Member
inoperativ
Member
Look, I don't disagree with you completely -- I think the euro is stupid and should be abandoned (how that could be done in a constructive way at this point I'm not sure though) and the EU's obsession with national debt is a by-product of this silly currency system. Voting Leave because of that is incredibly stupid though, because now you've given a bunch of fascists the feeling that they have a "mandate" to attack foreigners (I personally know two German friends living in the North of England who have experienced xenophobic abuse since the referendum, and have heard about many more incidents involving friends of friends), and control of the country to the right wing of the tory party who in many cases are pretty much fascists themselves. If you think "neo-liberal" labour was bad, wait until you see what these libertarians willing to put immigrants to the sword to win votes are going to be up to.
Edit: I mean for God's sake the likely next PM wants to withdraw from the ECHR so that parliament can decide your human rights.
Yes, it is nicer that countries don't have 200% GDP debt levels. It is required to make sure politicians don't play loose, and while it is a rule, it is a flexible one when there are good economic plans behind it.
The moronic narrative about racist Leave voters seems to fit quite well with the reality of those Leave voters beating up and insulting foreigners. I assume that is also media propaganda? Can we please stop the idiocy of claiming there is no post-Brexit race problem?
It starts already from a flawed premise, that the Euro is equivalent to the Gold standard allowing easy access. It is not the case, the Greeks only entered it through massive cooking of the books. It is not a perfect currency due to a lacking European integration, but a global currency will be the future.
You do realize European nations are quite small. I can't drive two hours in a straight line without ending up in another country no matter the direction I take. Spain and similar holiday destinations are also quite popular. All with the ease of one common currency. It also helps open up webshops and the likes as it is easy for people to order in their currency. Let's give corporations that power but take it away from people like you seem to want? That is fucked up capitalism.
It is a lot of buzzwords for defending someone that lies about his positions, that defended someone that committed mass fraud, that gets people to commit political fraud. He talks a pretty game, but he seems very much a politician, just one that is better at frauding leftist people.
They'll be so grateful that in a hundred years there will be a hundred years of the failed left system before people get back to something else. There is a long list of nations with failed extreme left systems. Even Sanders knows that, which is why his system is based on the Scandinavian model which falls directly in with those neoliberals as you define them.
Phantast2k
Member
#peakPatriotism
Isn't that Evgeny Lebedev? These people live in a different world, Brexit or no, they will be living it large on their yachts either way.
#peakPatriotism
When is he going throw the foreigners out? He is there with an Australian. Why are they still allowed in GREAT BRITAIN?
SlipperyFishes
Banned
I'm pretty sure at this stage Corbyn is acting out the fantasy of High Sparrow, dressing down and prothelyzing purity and simpleness in his £10 suit.
#peakPatriotism
Those are some fucking kickass shoes.
Starting to admire Merkel more and more.
That's good stuff. Juncker and Schultz are poison. Even as someone who wants to stay and has a lot of respect for Merkel; Juncker and Schultz are the personification of aloof, unelected career bureaucrats that are an anathema so many in the UK.
I'm very very glad there are still sane, strong leaders in Europe that can stand against them.
Edit: I do know the irony of calling him 'unelected' given his Luxembourg history but I'm talking about the council presidency and his lack of direct mandate from European voters.
Agreed. Is meaningless without definition and is over-rated to saturation.
Also Marr to Gove: 'Can you look into the camera and say something sinister like Frank Underwood?'
Licence fee right there.
Oh come on, a former Tory Chief Whip gunning to become Prime Minister of England and you compare him to Frank Underwood... He has to be Francis Urquhart.
Nice to see that your lack of understanding of politics extends to the US as well.
Not only that, the northern countries will get rid of Dragi at the next chance they get, the north likes to put money away for stability, Mario only likes to print by throwing money at problems without taking proper measures. At the next crisis things are going to implode if it already has not with the UK most likely leaving Junckers dictatorship behind them.
Austin Powers would be jealous.
#peakPatriotism
Schulz is legit though. He's not afraid to openly and unmistakably criticize Erdogan for instance. Something Merkel would never do.
Nigel "man of the people, I represent the working classes and ignored people of Britain" Farage, at a fucking garden party, holding a gin and tonic, with billionaires and media moguls.
I wish people would see through his shit.
Fernando Fernandez
Member
Some clever clogs have put together the amount of campaign appearances by politicians in the referendum. Not a fan of Dave but fair play to him, he put in a shift.
https://twitter.com/andysearson/status/749670773648920581
https://twitter.com/andysearson/status/749670773648920581
#peakPatriotism
Even his threads are white.
You seem to have no idea how convenient the Euro is for, well, Europeans.
Not every european. Spain, Portugal and "to a lesser extent" Italy (among others) were/are (partially) fucked because of it.
ClosingADoor
Member
Add "not part of the establishment despite being in the EU Parliament for 13 years now and working as a stock broker before" and you're complete. Guy is a joke and a liar.
lazer_bean
Member
I think he's right and not only because politicians aren't supposed to be professional politicians. Power can corrupt anyone, and even with high salaries politicians are corrupt.
It's our institutions (the way the system works) that allow corruption to happen. If mandates were short and non renewable and politicians heavily sanctioned in case of fraud, for example, there would already be a decline in corruption. But no one in power would benefit from laws like that.
That tweet is a complete straw man. People aren't saying he didn't do enough events. What they are saying is:
1) when he did speak about Europe it was to spend longer critiquing it than to say why we should stay
2) numerous speeches had Europe ripped out by his office
3) he refused to joint appearance,s which repeated polling found would have really helped
4) he went on holiday during the middle of it
5) Labour group offices were not supported properly at all (see Welsh labours complaint)
6) voter data, one of the most crucial parts of modern campaigning, wasn't shared
I mean, people in our UKpolgaf thread were complaining about Corbyns obvious lack of willing months ago. Polling showed that Labour voters didn't know what Labour's position was on the vote.
(Oh, and Alan Johnson isn't supposed to be doing tons of appearances, that wasn't his job. Again, straw man).
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Lily Allen is everyone's celebrity BFF.
But he says what everyone's really thinking, you know. He's a propa gentleman who don't cosy up to those wishy-washy leftist types.
I theorized this earlier in the discussion, but wasn't sure what the actual numbers would look like. Didn't think it would look as bad as that, and I would hope an actual GE would have different results.
Nevertheless, my assertion that if the mainstream parties abandon Brexit then UKIP will pick up a load of seats, and maybe even power, looks all too possible. No way the Tories decide against Article 50 while the numbers look anything like that.
Because some countries struggle to keep their deficit in line with the 3% GDP mantra (and France is one of them), doesn't make the Euro less convenient.
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