Support NeoGAF

[norinrad]

Gove seems like a guy who's been selling vaccum cleaners all his life and one day decided he wanted to become an improv comedian.

Iol. First time I saw him on TV I thought he looked like one of those guys who go around in suits selling secondhand HP printers.

 

[Gurgelhals]

Gove seems like a guy who's been selling vaccum cleaners all his life and one day decided he wanted to become an improv comedian.

To me, Gove looks like a real life version of your average witness or antagonist in the Phoenix Wright games. There's just something "off" about him in a way that strongly reminds me of those characters. For example, he would be perfect playing the killer from the very first case in a real life adaptation:

 

[Monty Mole]

Gove

 

[SomTervo]

I will purchase all the albums of this... "Lily Allen."

*listens*

FTFY

To me, Gove looks like a real life version of your average witness or antagonist in the Phoenix Wright games. There's just something "off" about him in a way that strongly reminds me of those characters. For example, he would be perfect playing the killer from the very first case in a real life adaptation:

Ah, yes, the trustworthy double-hand-clasp

I do not recommend reading Buzzfeed's "12 weird facts about Michael Gove", or whatever number it was. I don't recommend it. It's just weird. Unsettling. Distressing.

 

[Riddick]

It is simply media propaganda that Germany is the one taking these decisions. It is for instance blamed all the time for the Greek situation, despite a huge swat of nations being proponents of the same hardline approach. It is simply the result of a system where people like Rupert Murdoch want to do away with the Union as it stops his corporation from taking control. Murdoch has admitted Europe doesn't listen to him enough, while he has a lot of power in Britain. It is clear why his empire is so anti-EU. It is easy enough to look at Boris Johnson who has admitted to making up anti-EU stories, no wonder Times owner Murdoch likes him. That is the media propaganda you are falling over. (Or, the one of RT which is a lot more believable) It isn't a coincidence so many Leave politicians were former journalists making up anti-EU stories for a living.

It must all be a coincidence! The German government and that evil neoliberal dipshit Schauble want austerity and privatizations while the South, France and other countries want progressive measures and oh, what a surprise, they "unanimously" decide to punish the European people even more.

It could work in a future where the nations are further integrated, but it requires at the moment both the country and the ideology perspective to be balanced. It still is a step-by-step process for the Union to integrate further, held back by countries like Britain.

Again, this is just an excuse you're using to defend the Council, the people wouldn't complain about sovereignty because they wouldn't have the Council, that's just plain ridiculous. Noone gives a shit about the Council in Europe, just the ones who benefit from it. They complain about their countries sovereignty because they want less responsibilities for the EU since it keeps screwing them over.

It would be nice for the ruling class that desperately wants to sell out their country, by privatizing everything including social security, that wants to pull back workers rights, that wants to undo human rights. It is showing already perfectly in how the British media is actually handling the Brexit. They are already applauding politicians for hollowing out those rights. People that voted Leave, voted for a government that doesn't want public healthcare, that wants to do away with privacy and other human rights. Europe held them back on those points. They are free to do so now.

And yet the ruling class has systemic media use every fear tactic to scare and blackmail the public after the Brexit. Gee, I wonder why this happens. It couldn't be because they need EU because it's easier to push their shit through there since their lobbyists own Brussels, could it? Btw governments come and go, if Corbyn was to be elected they'd be screwed, the rotten neoliberal regime in Brussels has stayed the same for more than a decade though. And btw NHS was there before the EU and it'll be there after it, this is pure fearmongering.

 

[oti]

Some interesting tidbits from a German poll:

- 62% want the national governments to reclaim some power from the EU (whatever that means, they don't specify any details, so... ok?)
- "over a third" want the EU to have even more power over the national governments
- "over a third" want the EU to become bigger (=more members)
- 8% want the dissolution of the EU altogether
- 90% do not want Germany to take the sole responsibility of leading the EU out of this crisis (in other words to be the leader)
- 75% say Germany would be worse off without the EU

Also fun:
- a third doesn't believe the Brexit will actually happen

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...dern-Zustaendigkeiten-von-der-EU-zurueck.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...inds-a7111606.html?platform=hootsuite#gallery

 

[Micael]

And yet the ruling class has systemic media use every fear tactic to scare and blackmail the public after the Brexit. Gee, I wonder why this happens

Wouldn't logic dictate that if that was the case, they would have also used it before brexit succeeded?

 

[Riddick]

I'm assuming you mean a fiscal union or more integrated political union, which isn't something I'd oppose, but is besides the point.

The crux of your complaint is still very strange to me. Basically it amounts to a disagreement with heads of government/state conducting policy fora that affect world affairs; which world leaders regularly do.

Whether it's the EU or the UN, NATO, APEC, ASEAN, the G20, CHOGM, African Union.

It's part of their remit when you elect them internally.

I can't be any more clear, I have repeated this many times. The problem is that the vast majority of politicians are scumbags so if they have no accountability they will make the decision that will reward them the most, and those who can reward them are always the rich and powerful. And thanks to EU and the Council they have no accountability for their decisions.

Also comparing an organization like the EU with UN or G20 is disingenuous and you know it. The control EU has over the lives of the European public doesn't even compare to UN for example.

Wouldn't logic dictate that if that was the case, they would have also used it before brexit succeeded?

They did.

 

[jimbobsmells]

Anyone posted Burnham's tweet yet:
https://twitter.com/andyburnhammp/status/749528430681686016

 

[Micael]

They did.

Got to say then, the ruling class does an absolutely atrocious job, I mean jesus even now we see plenty of pro brexit stuff in more tabloid (aka more popular) news sources, you would think the ruling class would know better and just go straight for tabloids.

 

[ferrasvansen]

Anyone posted Burnham's tweet yet:
https://twitter.com/andyburnhammp/status/749528430681686016

Haha he is taking the piss nice one, just about spat out my dinner.

 

[Beefy]

Any one else find Leadsom scary?

 

[ferrasvansen]

Any one else find Leadsom scary?

Yeah very, the fact she realises the damage Brexit will do and doesn't care is very scary to me.

 

[War Peaceman]

Weird thing is that Leadsom worked in banking for thirty years; she must surely know the impact it will have on that industry. She's an opportunist.

 

[Clear]

Wouldn't logic dictate that if that was the case, they would have also used it before brexit succeeded?

I honestly believe very few people saw it coming, the expected result was that the status quo was going to continue due to the long-standing practice of conditioning the populace to fear change.

 

[oti]

Any one else find Leadsom scary?

Andrea Leadsom: 'I want to make UK greatest country on Earth'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4bZUJ2VCx8

This is Russian crisis management. It's just as dangerous as Farage's lies.

 

[Riddick]

Got to say then, the ruling class does an absolutely atrocious job, I mean jesus even now we see plenty of pro brexit stuff in more tabloid (aka more popular) news sources, you would think the ruling class would know better and just go straight for tabloids.

You must be talking about Murdoch publications. That particular piece of shit has a different agenda.

 

[Beefy]

Yeah very, the fact she realises the damage Brexit will do and doesn't care is very scary to me.

That and I can not trust anything she says. Is she deply religious? I caught the end of a interview with her and she was going on about god.

 

[JonathanEx]

Weird thing is that Leadsom worked in banking for thirty years; she must surely know the impact it will have on that industry. She's an opportunist.

Well in 2013 she thought it would be a disaster: https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/749536352748855296

I presume she just followed strong evidence to change her mind and nothing else.

 

[ferrasvansen]

That and I can not trust anything she says. Is she deply religious? I caught the end of a interview with her and she was going on about god.

Yeah very very religious indeed.

 

[SomTervo]

I can't be any more clear, I have repeated this many times. The problem is that the vast majority of politicians are scumbags so if they have no accountability they will make the decision that will reward them the most, and those who can reward them are always the rich and powerful. And thanks to EU and the Council they have no accountability for their decisions.

IMO any public service should have relatively low pay. Never above £50,000py. Even that's too much IMO. People should be doing the job because they want to, and because somebody has to do it, not because they want power or pay.

I'm a sicko who thinks nobody should ever earn over that amount though, so I'm probably not the best person to comment

 

[Clear]

Well in 2013 she thought it would be a disaster: https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/749536352748855296

I presume she just followed strong evidence to change her mind and nothing else.

On the other hand it might be a simple case of her coming round to the opinion that the EU as it stands is basically impossible to reform from within.

 

[SomTervo]

That and I can not trust anything she says. Is she deply religious? I caught the end of a interview with her and she was going on about god.

Super Christian. Dad was a minister I think.

Heard her on Desert Island Discs a while back. Sounds like she pretty much had the most religious + sheltered life in history, so her lack of empathy and perspective isn't very surprising

 

[War Peaceman]

Well in 2013 she thought it would be a disaster: https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/749536352748855296

I presume she just followed strong evidence to change her mind and nothing else.

Yup. It is a shame that she did not share this wealth of evidence with the rest of the country. Hmm.

 

[KingSnake]

On the other hand it might be a simple case of her coming round to the opinion that the EU as it stands is basically impossible to reform from within.

That doesn't change the immediate outcome of the Brexit, doesn't it? Did she say something about that in the campaign?

 

[Joni]

It must all be a coincidence! The German government and that evil neoliberal dipshit Schauble want austerity and privatizations while the South, France and other countries want progressive measures and oh, what a surprise, they "unanimously" decide to punish the European people even more.

Open to Grexit: Germany, Austria, The Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Malta, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus, Slovenia, Estonia. Compared to France, Italy, Spain and Luxembourg. It was only the south that wanted to keep Greece. It is clear that you have fallen for the media propaganda you're going on about.

Again, this is just an excuse you're using to defend the Council, the people wouldn't complain about sovereignty because they wouldn't have the Council, that's just plain ridiculous. Noone gives a shit about the Council in Europe, just the ones who benefit from it. They complain about their countries sovereignty because they want less responsibilities for the EU since it keeps screwing them over.

They want less responsibilities for Europe so they can screw the people over and the Union stops it. Again, stop listening to media and politicians that have admitted to making this stuff up.

And yet the ruling class has systemic media use every fear tactic to scare and blackmail the public after the Brexit. Gee, I wonder why this happens. It couldn't be because they need EU because it's easier to push their shit through there since their lobbyists own Brussels, could it?

IBtw governments come and go, if Corbyn was to be elected they'd be screwed, the rotten neoliberal regime in Brussels has stayed the same for more than a decade though. And btw NHS was there before the EU and it'll be there after it, this is pure fearmongering.

Jeremy Corbyn says ‘if you care about the NHS vote Remain’ in EU referendum

Fearmongering from the guy you're supporting. So either he is lying or it is a risk. So either I'm right or you're backing a liar. Both could be write for a guy who commits election fraud and supports people scamming old people for millions.

 

[accel]

why can't we get these two?

Please not Obama. (Then again, I suppose those who voted Remain have less of a problem with enormous government who squeaks into more and more areas of everyday life.)

 

[Riddick]

IMO any public service should have relatively low pay. Never above £50,000py. Even that's too much IMO. People should be doing the job because they want to, and because somebody has to do it, not because they want power or pay.

I'm a sicko who thinks nobody should ever earn over that amount though, so I'm probably not the best person to comment

I can't agree, if their salary isn't high enough they'd be even easier to corrupt.

 

[accel]

Some interesting tidbits from a German poll:

- 62% want the national governments to reclaim some power from the EU (whatever that means, they don't specify any details, so... ok?)
- "over a third" want the EU to have even more power over the national governments
- "over a third" want the EU to become bigger (=more members)
- 8% want the dissolution of the EU altogether
- 90% do not want Germany to take the sole responsibility of leading the EU out of this crisis (in other words to be the leader)
- 75% say Germany would be worse off without the EU

Looks pretty sensible to me. Ie, changing Germany to the UK, I identify with the majority on all points except the last one.

I can't agree, if their salary isn't high enough they'd be even easier to corrupt.

The size of salary only matters in this respect for people who'd take small bribes. For politics (and judges and many others), who'd take bribes in millions, it doesn't matter how big the salary is, high salaries do nothing to detract them from corruption. So, perhaps their salary should be good enough to live a respectable life with a family, but not more than that.

 

[Clear]

That doesn't change the immediate outcome of the Brexit, doesn't it? Did she say something about that in the campaign?

I honestly have no idea, Leadsom was never really on my radar before now.

Personally I think May is going to get the nod due to her having a track record of dealing with Europe in a way that will be mostly acceptable to both pro-EU and Euroskeptic members.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Looks pretty sensible to me. Ie, changing Germany to the UK, I identify with the majority on all points except the last one.



The size of salary only matters for people who'd take small bribes. For politics (and judges and many others), who'd take bribes in millions, it doesn't matter how big the salary is, high salaries do nothing to detract them from corruption. So, perhaps their salary should be good enough to live a respectable life with a family, but not more than that.

Edit. Ah I see what you mean.

 

[SomTervo]

I can't agree, if their salary isn't high enough they'd be even easier to corrupt.

Salaries probably aren't the solution to this, anyway.

 

[Beefy]

Super Christian. Dad was a minister I think.

Heard her on Desert Island Discs a while back. Sounds like she pretty much had the most religious + sheltered life in history, so her lack of empathy and perspective isn't very surprising

Yeah very very religious indeed.

That would explain her saying she ticked both boxes when they voted to make gay marriage legal or not... Then going on about how god doesn't think the same sex should marry.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Edit. Ah I see what you mean.

Yeah, sort of.

Between 2003 and 2009.

 

[Helensmith]

Andrea Leadsom: 'I want to make UK greatest country on Earth'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4bZUJ2VCx8

This is Russian crisis management. It's just as dangerous as Farage's lies.

She says she wants to invoke Article 50 ASAP and we can still get a tariff-free trade deal 😦 Her fake smile is disconcerting and oh she's very religious too? Couldn't get any better.

 

[AzureSky]

IMO any public service should have relatively low pay. Never above £50,000py. Even that's too much IMO. People should be doing the job because they want to, and because somebody has to do it, not because they want power or pay.

low pay would also mean capable people would stay away from government jobs.And it would make corruption much more likely.
Not saying public service should be a gold mine, but reasonable wages are important for stability of the government.

 

[tuxfool]

She says she wants to invoke Article 50 ASAP and we can still get a tariff-free trade deal 😦 Her fake smile is disconcerting and oh she's very religious too? Couldn't get any better.

There is a certain correlation to be found in magical thinking.

 

[ferrasvansen]

She says she wants to invoke Article 50 ASAP and we can still get a tariff-free trade deal 😦 Her fake smile is disconcerting and oh she's very religious too? Couldn't get any better.

She is definitely from the lets make it all up as we go along school of government, scary stuff indeed.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Salaries probably aren't the solution to this, anyway.

I'd agree. People get into politics for power over money. Power leads to money sure but it's the power first and foremost. There are ways to make bank which earn you way less vitriol so why would anyone go into politics to get rich?

 

[Stinkles]

Please not Obama. (Then again, I suppose those who voted Remain have less of a problem with enormous government who squeaks into more and more areas of everyday life.)

What is this garbage?

 

[Riddick]

Open to Grexit: Germany, Austria, The Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Malta, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus, Slovenia, Estonia. Compared to France, Italy, Spain and Luxembourg. It was only the south that wanted to keep Greece. It is clear that you have fallen for the media propaganda you're going on about.

I am obviously not talking about the Grexit, I was talking about the austerity that is ruining Europe and dismantling the fabric of European societies.

They want less responsibilities for Europe so they can screw the people over and the Union stops it. Again, stop listening to media and politicians that have admitted to making this stuff up.

I don't, I have never trusted systemic media and never will. People want less responsibilities because EU is a fucking disaster. The Euro is complete failure of a currency having been compared even with the gold standard because of how inflexible it is, the EU's handling of the 2009 financial meltdown has been disastrous and downright criminal, EU's solidarity has been non-existent for its weaker members while they pushed for even more punishment and IMF-style neoliberal pillaging of those nations, because of the Union's obsessive behaviour with free market countries couldn't even stop their banks/citizens from investing in the 2008 bubble and so on.

Do I need to go on? Do you really think people could ever trust such an organization or want any responsibilities for it?

Fearmongering from the guy you're supporting. So either he is lying or it is a risk. So either I'm right or you're backing a liar. Both could be write for a guy who commits election fraud and supports people scamming old people for millions.

Corbyn supported remain because he had to, otherwise his party would oust him. It was obvious that he had no intention of doing anything more than the necessary. He, like many actual leftists knows that he can't change shit with the neoliberal trojan horse hanging over their heads.

But like you said, without the EU the economic far-right lunatics could run UK off a cliff too. It's a risk that is worth it imo. The entire planet is heading off a cliff anyway, carefully managing neoliberalism isn't a solution, it's a temporary fix that only benefits the rich. Destroying it is.

 

[Joni]

I am obviously not talking about the Grexit, I was talking about the austerity that is ruining Europe and dismantling the fabric of European societies.

Countries are still open to run their economy, aside from the general pledge to reduce their debt to manageable levels.

I don't, I have never trusted systemic media and never will. People want less responsibilities because EU is a fucking disaster.

People have been misled by that media propaganda that you see everywhere in the United Kingdom. The Leave campaign was built on a foundation of lies and still managed to barely win.

The Euro is complete failure of a currency having been compared even with the gold standard because of how inflexible it is, the EU's handling of the 2009 financial meltdown has been disastrous and downright criminal, EU's solidarity has been non-existent for its weaker members while they pushed for even more punishment and IMF-style neoliberal pillaging of those nations, because of the Union's obsessive behaviour with free market countries couldn't even stop their banks/citizens from investing in the 2008 bubble and so on.

Yes, meaningless buzz words, so on. You are confusing different areas of expertise, stuff that was long blocked by Britain and things that went wrong worldwide. Meanwhile, I see the advantages of the Euro in my daily life as it allows me freedom of movement without being impaired by countries hanging on to meaningless papers that aren't valid in any other country and that take days to exchange even electronically.

Corbyn supported remain because he had to, otherwise his party would oust him. It was obvious that he had no intention of doing anything more than the necessary. He, like many actual leftists knows that he can't change shit with the neoliberal trojan horse hanging over their heads.

Corbyn is thus a power hungry hypocrit. That is demonstrated by his pathetic grab to power. Good then that they are ousting him. As I said, either you were wrong on the NHS privatization or he is a liar that you keep supporting. Seemingly, you think it is only the latter.

But like you said, without the EU the economic far-right lunatics could run UK off a cliff too. It's a risk that is worth it imo. The entire planet is heading off a cliff anyway, carefully managing neoliberalism isn't a solution. Destroying it is.

So screw the weak who will suffer first and the longest?

 

[D4Danger]

The last thing we need to add to this mess is religion.

 

[oti]

The last thing we need to add to this mess is religion.

Let's pray for the pound to not tank even further.

Pray harder!
Harder!

 

[Beefy]

The last thing we need to add to this mess is religion.

Crabb and Leadsom need to lose. At least Leadsom hasn't said pills can cure homosexuality. Yet....

 

[JonathanEx]

Hey, do you love Europe, and feel that newspapers have been a bit rubbish? Well why not get the new, limited edition, pop up newspaper, The New European!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/exclusive-new-national-newspaper-launched-for-british-people

 

[SomTervo]

I suppose those who voted Remain have less of a problem with enormous government who squeaks into more and more areas of everyday life.)

Hilarious

If May gets power she will turn the nation into a genuine police state. She's already successfully made it happen in a few ways, and has tried other ways unsuccessfully.

Your head is in the fucking sand, mate. Google some of May's beliefs and bills.

The EU has nothing on her

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Hey, do you love Europe, and feel that newspapers have been a bit rubbish? Well why not get the new, limited edition, pop up newspaper, The New European!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/exclusive-new-national-newspaper-launched-for-british-people

Actually a smart idea. I may look into it if it has decent circulation.

 

[chadskin]

Interesting look behind the scenes of the EU power struggle and how Merkel dealt with the Brexit:

It is a power struggle between two opposing camps, both of which see Brexit as an opportunity to finally change Europe to conform to the vision they have long had for the bloc. The protagonists of an institutionalized Europe are Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and Parliament President Martin Schulz. On the other side stands the majority of Europe's heads of state and government, led by Angela Merkel, who has created an alliance on this issue with those governments in Eastern Europe with whom she was at such odds in the refugee crisis just a few months ago.

At 8:15 a.m., Merkel grabs for the phone in the Chancellery. She spent the morning following the referendum returns at home in her apartment and she is shocked by the result. She doesn't have a plan B and now Merkel wants to play for time so she can develop a strategy. In contrast to Schulz and Juncker, she doesn't believe that Britain's departure from the EU is a foregone conclusion. For Merkel, the British have always been an important ally in the fight against an overly powerful EU and against overly lenient fiscal policies of the kind favored by France and countries in southern Europe.

At 1 p.m. on the Friday after the Brexit referendum, Merkel makes a statement to Berlin journalists in which -- in contrast to Schulz -- she does not demand a rapid British withdrawal. One shouldn't "draw quick and easy conclusions from the British referendum that could further divide Europe," she says.

From Merkel's point of view, the crisis is one for European member state leaders to address. She sees the idea of "more Europe" as being the intensification of cooperation between EU governments, not the transfer of yet more authority to Brussels.

After Merkel speaks with Juncker on the phone that weekend, her belief that the Commission president is more a part of the problem than a part of the solution doesn't change. The chancellor believes that Juncker's appetite for power is one of the reasons why the British have turned their backs on Europe.

On Sunday, Merkel meets with a handful of confidants, including Chancellery Chief of Staff Peter Altmaier. The group examines a variety of different eventualities, including a second British referendum and snap UK elections. Merkel and Altmaier want to do all they can to prevent Britain from leaving, with Merkel saying that the EU should avoid exerting too much pressure. "Policymakers in London should have the possibility to reconsider the effects of leaving," Altmaier says in an interview.

On the same day, Merkel holds a long conversation with François Hollande. The French president insists on a rapid decision from Britain -- he wants to get rid of them as quickly as possible. The EU, he says, must be extremely clear about what leaving the bloc entails. Hollande also believes that Britain's departure represents an opportunity both for himself and his country. Brexit would increase France's influence in the EU.

In contrast to Merkel, Hollande would prefer a strategy pursuing deeper European integration. Prior to his election, he promised to reshape the EU and to give it a "friendlier, warmer face." At the time, Merkel understood the message to be: "Allow us to take on more debt!"

On Monday, Merkel and Holland meet together in the Chancellery in Berlin along with Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi. Their contrasting approaches to Brexit come up and, in the end, they reach a compromise: Proposals for further EU development in the areas of security, employment, youth and euro-zone cooperation should be presented by September, it says in their joint statement. The hope is that the plan will at least get them through the next several weeks.

On Tuesday evening, EU heads of state and government come together for what could be their last supper together with Cameron. On the following morning, they make clear to Juncker that they will be taking the lead in the exit negotiations with Britain. "But that is the Commission's responsibility," Juncker protests. "Jean-Claude, we have been elected, you haven't been," is the rejoinder from several prime ministers and heads of state.

Europe's government leaders agree on Wednesday that no changes should be made to European treaties and that there definitely should not be a convention. There also won't be any fundamental modifications made to the EU and no deepening of integration. "It is not the time for such things," says Merkel. It looks as though she has won this battle with the Schulz-Juncker tandem and that the concept of Europe as a collection of nation states has won this round.

The severe treatment of Britain demanded by some will also not be pursued initially. Instead, the EU will calmly wait, at least until September, to see how the situation in London develops. Europe is pausing for reflection instead of rushing to implement greater integration.

More: http://www.spiegel.de/international...e-between-merkel-and-juncker-a-1100852-2.html

 

[accel]

What is this garbage?

Genuinely not sure what you are objecting to.

Obama increased the size and power of the US government enormously. Those who voted Remain wanted the UK to stay in the EU - it can be argued that this means bigger government. No? I think the desired / tolerated size and power of the government is one of the fundamental differences between those who'd be inclined to vote Remain vs those who'd be inclined to vote Leave.