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[ClosingADoor]

This simply illustrates that when to invoke article 50 is also part of negotiations.

Negotiations start after article 50 has been invoked. So no, it is not. Waiting actually weakens the UKs position more. Of course you can wait as long as you want, but then you won't be leaving the EU, so why should the EU care anymore?

Even if we are merely talking about a yearly quota with a reasonable number? I don't think so.

No, since that would set a precedent and then Netherlands, Denmark and more would want it also.

 

[KingSnake]

This simply illustrates that when to invoke article 50 is also part of negotiations.

When to invoke article 50 is only UKs decision. And again if you think UK can blackmail EU with that, think again. Delaying article 50 hurts mostly UKs economy not others. Also feel free to read article 7, if you think that one country can sabotage EU from inside.

 

[Funky Papa]

This simply illustrates that when to invoke article 50 is also subject to talks / negotiations.



Even if we are merely talking about a yearly quota with a reasonable number? I don't think so.

There's already a metric fuckton of European immigrants in the UK that will require automatic assurance of freedom of movement, to whom you would also need to add a large number of travellers and new immigrants not currently living in the UK.

You will notice that this yearly quota with a reasonable number is so high you may as well drop it altogether.

 

[accel]

There's already a metric fuckton of European immigrants in the UK that will require automatic assurance of freedom of movement, to whom you would also need to add a large number of travellers and new immigrants not currently living in the UK.

You will notice that this yearly quota with a reasonable number is so high you may as well drop it altogether.

Those who already live in the UK could be exempt. New immigrants would come under quota, yes, that's what the quota is for.

I am not sure regarding your last sentence, what do you think the reasonable number would be? Why would, say, measuring the average number of people who moved to the UK across the last five years not be reasonable or be too high?

 

[mclem]

You think there are things the UK can give, but can't name any.

Can we rent out the Queen?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Those who already leave in the UK could be exempt. New immigrants would come under quota, yes, that's what the quota is for.

I am not sure regarding your last sentence, what do you think the reasonable number would be? Why would, say, measuring the average number of people who moved to the UK across the last five years be reasonable?

It is free movement. It is one of the pillars of the EU. There is no reasonable number here to give the UK.

 

[*Splinter]

I believe this works differently.

Blackcrane, have you considered the possibility that what you believe is wrong? There are a number of people suggesting as much, providing explanations and sources where appropriate. If I had started out believing everything you do, I think I'd have some new ideas or at least some doubts based on the discussions in this thread?

 

[accel]

It is free movement. It is one of the pillars of the EU. There is no reasonable number here to give the UK.

They forfeited it at least twice.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes they forfeited this at least twice.

I give you Liechtenstein, a tiny nation of not even 40.000 people. What is the other one?

And: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ingle-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens

The European Union is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens.

Talks going on for 2 years, EU hasn't changed its stance. So why would it accept this suddenly from the UK?

 

[operon]

This simply illustrates that when to invoke article 50 is also subject to talks / negotiations.



Even if we are merely talking about a yearly quota with a reasonable number? I don't think so.

A yearly quota is not freedom of movement. You keep talking about our "mutual" when it comes to the negotiations. When it comes to our banking passport there isn't any mutual. We want it, and Germany, France Ireland etc are drooling over our financial services industry. We have a pair of kings and they have 4 aces and you think we are in any places to get such concessions as what you are dreaming off

 

[Doc_Drop]

A yearly quota is not freedom of movement. You keep talking about our "mutual" when it comes to the negotiations. When it comes to our banking passport there isn't any mutual. We want it, and Germany, France Ireland etc are drooling over our financial services industry. We have a pair of kings and they have 4 aces and you think we are in any places to get such concessions as what you are dreaming off

I was going to write up a poker based analogy regarding the "mutual" negotiation, but you have hit the nail on the head there

 

[gerg]

Families of Jewish refugees who fled the Nazis want to leave UK for Germany after Brexit

I can sympathise with this. For the first time in my life Brexit has made me appreciate the existence of Israel.

(Edit: Relatedly, my brother and I have both seperately researched tbe possibility of attaining German citizenship.)

Surprising considering a majority of Jewish people voted for Brexit if i recall.

I don't think that's surprising. Jewish people fit into the niche of being an ethnic minority while simultaneously being white, and (I would imagine) generally having a higher socio-economic status than other ethnic minorities. Barnet in London has a very high Jewish population and has voted in several Conservative MPs. (More specifically still, Finchley has a high Jewish population and was the constituency for Margaret Thatcher before she became PM.)

 

[accel]

I give you Liechtenstein, a tiny nation of not even 40.000 people. What is the other one?

Iceland, suspended free movement of capital using the exact same mechanism.

I was going to write up a poker based analogy regarding the "mutual" negotiation, but you have hit the nail on the head there

The problem with the poker analogy is that it is limited in a way that destroys it (too binary). Seriously, why negotiations regarding UK getting out of EU be like poker? I think they are different.

 

[Lucreto]

In the short term Brexit raises questions about the Good Friday Agreement, since the peace settlement is predicated on the Irish and British states remaining members of the EU. Any general election I would have voted DUP as primarily I vote to keep N.Ireland in the UK as we would be better economically than a United Ireland. Though my vote has changed recently to Alliance because I find DUP's stances on social issues like homosexuality (NI remains the only part of the UK that doesn't allow gay marriage thanks to the DUP) or abortion, to be against my own. Brexit just opens up a new complication as I'm a Unionist and voted to Remain.

Recent surveys suggest that even Nationalist can’t be relied on to vote in overwhelming numbers for a United Ireland. For what it's worth, I'm angry that voters in England and Wales results in us pulling out of the EU despite the fact that the majority of N.Ireland voted to remain. Much like Scottish voters I guess. I just hope that those elected that work something out so that no physical border seperates North from South. Not feeling good about what the future, economically, may bring by remaining in the UK but we'll see.

It is really a rock and a hard place with Northern Ireland. They can stay with the sinking ship and slowly watch as their funding from England keep going down. Then they could break free and go it alone and hope for the best and try and come to a deal with the Republic and the EU. They need to sit down and think will be be more viable to stay with the UK and it's possible struggling economy and basically it's views continued to being ignored or try and secure a agreement for EU funding and work and try to create it's own industry to fund itself.

It's lucky Ireland is an Island and instead of building a EU boarder for 500km or so just get everyone in the country to carry their passports. It would mean Northern Ireland would lose its common travel with England and goods destined for Northern Ireland from England will have to pass through a customs check. It's also lucky Northern Ireland can have dual passports and remain a EU citizen under the Irish passport and I bet that is pissing off the DUP to know end.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Iceland, suspended free movement of capital using the exact same mechanism.

So not people then. And this was not a total freeze if I get it right? http://www.eftacourt.int/uploads/tx_nvcases/3_11_Judgment_EN.pdf

A national measure which prevents inbound transfer into Iceland of
Icelandic krónur purchased on the offshore market, is compatible
with Article 43(2) and (4) of the EEA Agreement in circumstances
such as those in the case before the referring court.

 

[shinra-bansho]

You seem to be completely unable to separate what the UK may want on its wishlist and what will appease the xenophobic masses, and what is actually plausibly going to happen and is politically viable to the 27 other sovereign states. (And three other parties to the EEA in that scenario.)

What is actually the best interests of the continued union of the latter countries. From what you seem to think is in the best interests of the EU.

Which is to simply cave in to British demands without any real concession and which you seem to think is somehow a neutral, professional stance.

The EU side of any arrangement will require the consent of Eastern countries, whom you want to restrict from entry. It consists of Frankfurt and Paris who want that FS tax revenue. And countries trying to quell far right nationlism. And countries that want Nissan and Ford pouring money into them instead.

Almost everything you state as plausible negotiating position ignores the relative bargaining position of both parties.

(As well as things the UK would have to abide by regardless of what deal is made, such that they can't for instance just randomly impose tariffs here and there as much as they want given things like GATT if they're going to remain at a minimum plugged into the economy.)

And simultaneously you appear completely devoid of the self-awareness to recognise this. Despite how many times people point out what would actually constitute the best interests of the EU.

You're Britainsplaining what the EU should want and should do for a "mutually" agreeable solution.

I'm not sure why anyone is still indulging this fan fiction. She's just not that into you.

 

[Paulie_C]

It's also lucky Northern Ireland can have dual passports and remain a EU citizen under the Irish passport and I bet that is pissing off the DUP to know end.

It's not. Even DUP members have applied for their Irish passport.

 

[accel]

So not people then. And this was not a total freeze if I get it right? http://www.eftacourt.int/uploads/tx_nvcases/3_11_Judgment_EN.pdf

It was the same mechanism, it was invoked unilaterally, it restricted one part of freedom of movement (which consists of four parts) and the EU were fine with it - to an extent (not that the UK wants anything than being fine with its own restriction to an extent, meaning temporarily until the full exit).

 

[FStop7]

Street sweepers could greatly benefit from a less regulated UK in which people could be able to dispose of their feces by throwing them through the window and into the streets.

There you go, here's an example of regulatory hurdles holding down employment.

Plague rats and London Fog looking to make that 2018 comeback

 

[ClosingADoor]

It was the same mechanism, it was invoked unilaterally, it restricted one part of freedom of movement (which consists of four parts) and the EU were fine with it - to an extent (not that the UK wants anything than being fine with its own restriction to an extent, meaning temporarily until the full exit).

It's also a way different situation and it followed the rules:

(2) If movements of capital lead to disturbances in the functioning of the
capital market in any EC Member State or EFTA State, the Contracting
Party concerned may take protective measures in the field of capital
movements.
...
(4) Where an EC Member State or an EFTA State is in difficulties, or is
seriously threatened with difficulties, as regards its balance of payments
– 3 –
either as a result of an overall disequilibrium in its balance of payments,
or as a result of the type of currency at its disposal, and where such
difficulties are liable in particular to jeopardize the functioning of this
Agreement, the Contracting Party concerned may take protective
measures.

I don't see how the UK can make the argument this is comparable to their situation and how it would apply to people.

 

[Doc_Drop]

The problem with the poker analogy is that it is limited in a way that destroys it (too binary). Seriously, why negotiations regarding UK getting out of EU be like poker? I think they are different.

They are obviously different, but you seem to be ignoring any reasonable explanation of why the negotiations wont go the way you're expecting, essentially based on a wing and a prayer, and that a poker analogy at least highlights the completely disproportionate "hands" the UK and the EU have in this "deal".

 

[accel]

You seem to be completely unable to separate what the UK may want on its wishlist and what will appease the xenophobic masses, and what is actually plausibly going to happen and is politically viable to the 27 other sovereign states. (And three other parties to the EEA in that scenario.)

...

We have a different opinion on what is plausible.

I get that you think my opinion is wrong, I tried to explain why I think otherwise. I acknowledge that the UK depends on the EU more than the reverse, that still leaves room for negotiations. I don't really buy into the idea of the EU intentionally harming the UK even if it costs the EU as well, as a lesson to other member states, I think that's too childish and will backfire. I don't think limiting freedom of movement of people via a quota is all that big of a deal to the EU. Etc.

I think I said most of what I could say on this topic today, the points start repeating.

They are obviously different, but you seem to be ignoring any reasonable explanation of why the negotiations wont go the way you're expecting, essentially based on a wing and a prayer, and that a poker analogy at least highlights the completely disproportionate "hands" the UK and the EU have in this "deal".

I think I replied to most of those explanations. You might disagree with what I said (and I might even be wrong in some or all the replies, although I don't currently think so), but I didn't ignore them.

 

[mrklaw]

Reading comments by leave voters on Facebook gives me a fucking headache.

Many say they're doing it to go against the elite, and yet they've just empowered the elite by leaving.

Their reasoning is incredibly baffling and it's a concern such people are able to vote.

I'd say they were cutting off their nose to spite their face, but I'm not sure they even knew they had a knife in their hands.

 

[Clear]

What was immature about what was written? I'd be leaving the UK right now if I still lived there.

Its a massive overreaction, that's what immature. The UK has not descended into anarchy, there has been no Kristallnacht-type eruption of violence against minorities. A few idiots have written slogans on walls, made crank-calls, or generally acted like racist arseholes.

You know, the sort of thing that's a sad reality everywhere in the developed world.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Its a massive overreaction, that's what immature. The UK has not descended into anarchy, there has been no Kristallnacht-type eruption of violence against minorities. A few idiots have written slogans on walls, made crank-calls, or generally acted like racist arseholes.

You know, the sort of thing that's a sad reality everywhere in the developed world.

How can you tell that deciding to leave the country an overreaction? You don't know the situation of the poster and how close they were to leaving the country before the vote.

 

[Funky Papa]

Plague rats and London Fog looking to make that 2018 comeback

Father Thames will provide.

 

[Maledict]

Its a massive overreaction, that's what immature. The UK has not descended into anarchy, there has been no Kristallnacht-type eruption of violence against minorities. A few idiots have written slogans on walls, made crank-calls, or generally acted like racist arseholes.

You know, the sort of thing that's a sad reality everywhere in the developed world.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Whilst the number of hate crime incidents thankfully remains small, the overall mood and tone of the country has shifted. The Ukrainian lady who has lived next door for 25 years has said she now feels afraid to go out. My polish friend who got offered a job in the UK last week turned it down. the German & Dutch couple I know who have lived here for 15 years say they don't feel this place is home anymore.

Whilst the risk of suffering an attack remains incredibly, incredibly low, the fact is the majority of the voting population just agreed with a racist campaign that used bigotry and xenophobia as a tool to win. We've sent a very clear signal to the rest of the world as to who we are, and the rest of the world was listening.

 

[ClosingADoor]

We have a different opinion on what is plausible.

I get that you think my opinion is wrong, I tried to explain why I think otherwise. I acknowledge that the UK depends on the EU more than the reverse, that still leaves room for negotiations. I don't really buy into the idea of the EU intentionally harming the UK even if it costs the EU as well, as a lesson to other member states, I think that's too childish and will backfire. I don't think limiting freedom of movement of people via a quota is all that big of a deal to the EU. Etc.

I think I said most of what I could say on this topic today, the points start repeating.

They will not intentionally harm the UK just for the sake of it, but the UK wants to leave, so the EU is doing what is best for them. And that happens to conflict majorly with what the UK wants. And the EU is not about to give in there, since that would harm them a lot - for example give up on free movement.

Free movement is seriously one of the biggest deals for the EU. I don't get how you can't see that. The ability for people to go everywhere in the union, work there, start a business there, start a family there. That is the goal of the EU. To have all these countries living together freely and peacefully. That is why the EU was made.

 

[Clear]

How can you tell that deciding to leave the country an overreaction? You don't know the situation of the poster and how close they were to leaving the country before the vote.

I'm responding to a post on a forum, not doing a forensic dissection of their life. The same way you are challenging me in complete ignorance to my situation.

 

[Lucreto]

I think at this stage they should forget the whole thing and not leave. It's already hurting the economy and they haven't even started leaving yet. Once the party leaders have been chosen they need to take a stance on the issue. If Labour want to remain they should say they will not invoked article 50. That is would be too costly and their is no way it would be done in a timely manner. If people within the party disagree should leave and start their own party. Then call a general election.

People say it's political suicide and it will be but what's more important your career or the country's long term economy. The right wing groups will gain power and article 50 will be activated. This will leave the people responsible for leave to actually do what they campaigned for and get the UK out of the EU instead of shouting from the sidelines and running away when the hard work begins. These people won't know how to negotiate with Europe and get a extremely bad deal and will get blamed for it. This will give Labour etc to rebuild the party and create an actual plan and blame the right wing parties for damaging the economy.

If the current government keeps going and does negotiate with Europe and gets a deal which is still not as good as the one they currently have, the right wing will shout from the sidelines saying we are acting weak against Europe and will probably winning the next election anyway.

It's not. Even DUP members have applied for their Irish passport.

I am thinking more of the Ian Paisley crowd that are still there. It would have certainly have pissed old Ian off. He didn't like the Irish one bit.

 

[Dougald]

Its a massive overreaction, that's what immature. The UK has not descended into anarchy, there has been no Kristallnacht-type eruption of violence against minorities. A few idiots have written slogans on walls, made crank-calls, or generally acted like racist arseholes.

You know, the sort of thing that's a sad reality everywhere in the developed world.

With respect, you don't know my situation or what other experiences are making me consider this. It was certainly not solely in response to one tweet

I'm not going to write an essay, but I've thought of emigrating before but ended up putting that on the back-burner to due a mortgage and successful career. My family is now looking at one of us either restarting their career, or moving with head office to the rest of the EU. Even if its "restart career", doing so abroad is now a distinct possibility.

 

[CS_Dan]

I'm sorry but I disagree. Whilst the number of hate crime incidents thankfully remains small, the overall mood and tone of the country has shifted. The Ukrainian lady who has lived next door for 25 years has said she now feels afraid to go out. My polish friend who got offered a job in the UK last week turned it down. the German & Dutch couple I know who have lived here for 15 years say they don't feel this place is home anymore.

Whilst the risk of suffering an attack remains incredibly, incredibly low, the fact is the majority of the voting population just agreed with a racist campaign that used bigotry and xenophobia as a tool to win. We've sent a very clear signal to the rest of the world as to who we are, and the rest of the world was listening.

To me, it's a combination of this and also the fact that the people committing these acts feel like the literal majority of the country's populace now feels in a similar way. They see their actions as being justified as a result of the referendum. Even if I know this isn't actually true and that not all leave voters are this disgusting, I'm finding it very hard to identify with the majority of the English populace as a result.

"Not racist but #1 with racists" etc.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

I'm responding to a post on a forum, not doing a forensic dissection of their life. The same way you are challenging me in complete ignorance to my situation.

You accused the poster of being immature with absolutely no context. I was stepping to their defence as I saw some of myself in what they wrote.

 

[tuxfool]

I'm not sure why people are still engaging with blackcrane.

How to people expect to have a reasonable discussion that doesn't go in circles, when one person lives in some fantasy where not even the barest concepts of reality penetrate?

 

[Dougald]

You accused the poster of being immature with absolutely no context. I was stepping to their defence as I saw some of myself in what they wrote.

I appreciate that, thank you

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

I'm not sure why people are still engaging with blackcrane.

How to people expect to have a reasonable discussion that doesn't go in circles, when one person lives in some fantasy where not even the barest concepts of reality penetrate?

Because England, damn it.

 

[operon]

I think at this stage they should forget the whole thing and not leave. It's already hurting the economy and they haven't even started leaving yet. Once the party leaders have been chosen they need to take a stance on the issue. If Labour want to remain they should say they will not invoked article 50. That is would be too costly and their is no way it would be done in a timely manner. If people within the party disagree should leave and start their own party. Then call a general election.

People say it's political suicide and it will be but what's more important your career or the country's long term economy. The right wing groups will gain power and article 50 will be activated. This will leave the people responsible for leave to actually do what they campaigned for and get the UK out of the EU instead of shouting from the sidelines and running away when the hard work begins. These people won't know how to negotiate with Europe and get a extremely bad deal and will get blamed for it. This will give Labour etc to rebuild the party and create an actual plan and blame the right wing parties for damaging the economy.

If the current government keeps going and does negotiate with Europe and gets a deal which is still not as good as the one they currently have, the right wing will shout from the sidelines saying we are acting weak against Europe and will probably winning the next election anyway.



I am thinking more of the Ian Paisley crowd that are still there. It would have certainly have pissed old Ian off. He didn't like the Irish one bit.

His son has one and has advised people on twitter to get a second passport if you can

 

[BGBW]

UK will revoke all of the EU's nectar points!

 

[operon]

I'm not sure why people are still engaging with blackcrane.

How to people expect to have a reasonable discussion that doesn't go in circles, when one person lives in some fantasy where not even the barest concepts of reality penetrate?

I'm out with him. He is either trolling or he really does believe the rubbish that the leave side was spouting

 

[Clear]

With respect, you don't know my situation or what other experiences are making me consider this. It was certainly not solely in response to one tweet

I'm not going to write an essay, but I've thought of emigrating before but ended up putting that on the back-burner to due a mortgage and successful career. My family is now looking at one of us either restarting their career, or moving with head office to the rest of the EU. Even if its "restart career", doing so abroad is now a distinct possibility.

With equal respect back, I wish you the best of luck whatever your future plans.

That being said, I have to admit becoming increasingly exasperated by people who ostensibly oppose the current political situation threatening to bail-out rather than making a stand for what they believe in while nothing is yet set in stone.

 

[*Splinter]

I'm not sure why people are still engaging with blackcrane.

How to people expect to have a reasonable discussion that doesn't go in circles, when one person lives in some fantasy where not even the barest concepts of reality penetrate?

Slow news day innit?

 

[*Splinter]

With equal respect back, I wish you the best of luck whatever your future plans.

That being said, I have to admit becoming increasingly exasperated by people who ostensibly oppose the current political situation threatening to bail-out rather than making a stand for what they believe in while nothing is yet set in stone.

I'm bailing*. Curious to know why you think I shouldn't.


*Not entirely due to Brexit, but at least inspired by it

 

[Maledict]

For many of us even staying and successfully opposing this would be bittersweet.

I've always been weirdly patriotic (compared to my other left leaning chums). Too much Daily Mail and civilization growing up I think. However, this result has utterly extinguished that in me. I've never felt so utterly ashamed and embarrassed to be British. I've gone from firmly believing in the union and our system of government, to now wishing Scotland well on their independence and thinking that parliament is an utter failure. I constantly feel like I'm second guessing "Did they vote for leave" when I meet people.

I honestly don't think I understand or know the country anymore. In 4 years we've gone from hosting the best Olympics in years, throwing open our doors to the world and demonstrating the value the UK has to offer, to a country where I have to apologize to my foreign friends for why they now feel afraid and unsure in the country they have lived in for decades.

It just doesn't feel like the country I loved, and was proud of, actually exists anymore. Even if we reverse this, 52% of people still voted for a campaign that was self-evidently both racist *and* moronically stupid.

 

[oti]

Where's the shoe-eating livestream at?

 

[Dougald]

With equal respect back, I wish you the best of luck whatever your future plans.

That being said, I have to admit becoming increasingly exasperated by people who ostensibly oppose the current political situation threatening to bail-out rather than making a stand for what they believe in while nothing is yet set in stone.

I won't be making any decisions until any agreement has been reached. I'm still in the middle of a 4 year mortgage deal, and everyone in my family is still employed, for now. The only thing that has changed is that one of my EU national friends has resigned and is moving to the continent.

If things do change for the worst then you can be sure I will be doing whatever I feel is best for myself and my family, and I won't consider that "bailing out" if that is moving abroad for a better quality of life.

For many of us even staying and successfully opposing this would be bittersweet.

I've always been weirdly patriotic (compared to my other left leaning chums). Too much Daily Mail and civilization growing up I think. However, this result has utterly extinguished that in me. I've never felt so utterly ashamed and embarrassed to be British. I've gone from firmly believing in the union and our system of government, to now wishing Scotland well on their independence and thinking that parliament is an utter failure. I constantly feel like I'm second guessing "Did they vote for leave" when I meet people.

I honestly don't think I understand or know the country anymore. In 4 years we've gone from hosting the best Olympics in years, throwing open our doors to the world and demonstrating the value the UK has to offer, to a country where I have to apologize to my foreign friends for why they now feel afraid and unsure in the country they have lived in for decades.

It just doesn't feel like the country I loved, and was proud of, actually exists anymore. Even if we reverse this, 52% of people still voted for a campaign that was self-evidently both racist *and* moronically stupid.

Very well put. I've never been incredibly patriotic, but even before the referendum, the disgusting nature of the Leave (and do some extend, the Remain) campaigns were just making me depressed. I've always loved the UK being a complete melting pot, and seeing people shout from the rooftops that this isn't the way Britain is supposed to be, well, it doesn't make me feel like I really belong here any more. It feels like there are two wildly different visions of how this country is supposed to be out there, and neither of those can really coexist any more

But this is a very emotive subject in a very emotive time. Who knows what the next few years will bring.

 

[Theonik]

I told you the shoe eating would be disappointing but you wouldn't listen.

 

[gerg]

That being said, I have to admit becoming increasingly exasperated by people who ostensibly oppose the current political situation threatening to bail-out rather than making a stand for what they believe in while nothing is yet set in stone.

I think the significance here is that people lose their belief in Britain and their experience of it.

From my own (relatively comfortable) perspective, I have yet to had any xenophobia directed at me and I doubt that I will; economically, even if the job market dries up I will be in a significantly more stable position than most. London is where I have lived most of my life and it would be easier for me to remain here.

But Brexit has been a highly dislocating experience. I can't say that I have always felt strongly British, which is perhaps why I have so easily felt a bit of a loss of identity, but reading about a rise in xenophobia reminds me that I am not of a majority, or that I am not a native (despite being born here) - I am not of that fabled WASP Englishness. And of course Britishness is arguably in essence a melange, a melting pot of many different cultures. But that thought doesn't give me much comfort. (In this manner too Scottish independence would also question my relationship to being "British".)

 

[accel]

Those who accuse me of trolling or believing lies / rubbish from the Leave campaign (despite me, for example, saying that I did not think much of the bus with the 350 mil figure on the side), try visiting threads and forums dominated by Leave instead of Remain like it is here. You will hear the same things after some time no matter how hard you try to get your message across.

That said, next time I think I have something to say I will write much fewer and more focused messages, that would be less irritating to those who disagree / don't care.

 

[*Splinter]

For many of us even staying and successfully opposing this would be bittersweet.

I've always been weirdly patriotic (compared to my other left leaning chums). Too much Daily Mail and civilization growing up I think. However, this result has utterly extinguished that in me. I've never felt so utterly ashamed and embarrassed to be British. I've gone from firmly believing in the union and our system of government, to now wishing Scotland well on their independence and thinking that parliament is an utter failure. I constantly feel like I'm second guessing "Did they vote for leave" when I meet people.

I honestly don't think I understand or know the country anymore. In 4 years we've gone from hosting the best Olympics in years, throwing open our doors to the world and demonstrating the value the UK has to offer, to a country where I have to apologize to my foreign friends for why they now feel afraid and unsure in the country they have lived in for decades.

It just doesn't feel like the country I loved, and was proud of, actually exists anymore. Even if we reverse this, 52% of people still voted for a campaign that was self-evidently both racist *and* moronically stupid.

I agree with a lot of this. I've always quietly enjoyed my patriotism and now I miss it. I'd like to live in a country I can be proud of, with a future I can be excited for.

I'm aware of how melodramatic that sounds
¯_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Beefy]

Have to start being nice to May now. So I get use to it when she takes over.