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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Immigrants are not a pivotal issue for the UK and while immigration should be discussed in clear terms, it should not have been the driving force behind this debate.

I don't think this is something hard to grasp.
 

Jackpot

Banned
I am tired of this.

You think I don't contribute to the discussion? Fine, have at it.

It's all dooooooom, the Brexiters are nutters, etc. Enjoy your echo chamber.

Everyone calls you a troll = it's everyone else that's wrong. Never mind the tireless effort people put in their posts trying to educate you with stats and studies. Willfully ignorant.
 

oti

Banned
This whole conversation and approach from blackcrane is disgusting, as it basically sneaks in the idea that immigration is an issue.

Immigration is wonderful.

You might not agree with this view but many people across Europe (and the world) share it. That doesn't make it any better or any less wrong but it makes sense that it's part of the conversation. This fear, as baseless as it is, played a huge role in the decision to leave the EU after all. That's why politicians have realized they have to give people who feel this way something.

I'm not saying immigration isn't wonderful, I'm saying many people disagree and that's just how the world has always been/will always be to some. Only thing we can do is present facts, data. If that doesn't help nothing will. I get the frustration though.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The renewal of Trident was expected to cost £100bn over something like a decade (who knows what the falling pound has done to that, but anyway,) Scotland's share of that would be roughly £8-10bn over the decade depending how you do the mathematics, let's say circa £1bn a year.

The number given for Scotland's deficit was £15bn, we haven't reduced it, but on that one item alone we've prevented Scotlands deficit from rising by 6.7% every year for 10 years. That's not a 'tiny' fraction, and it's a good example of how the finances of an independent Scotland would be different from Scotland remaining in the UK.

The lifetime cost of Trident is estimated at £167bn between 2028 and 2060. That's £5.2bn a year, or 0.6% of the UK's yearly spending. Assuming Scotland is responsible for an equal part of each bit of the UK's spending (not actually true; Scotland has a large deficit than both Wales and England and so would save relatively less), given Scotland is 8% of the population of the UK, IndScotland would save ~£415mn a year. This isn't better than nothing, but it's still a tiny fraction of any Scottish budget deficit, and wouldn't allow Scotland to avoid either austerity or tax raises.

Additionally, this spending hasn't actually happened yet, and so saying Scotland can reduce the current deficit it has now by reducing planned spendings in the future is wrong. That's now how things work. Don't get me wrong, I think Trident renewal, at least at the scale proposed, is a stupid idea. But it's not some magical budget saver.

While personally I have no issue with joining the Euro if the numbers look good, particularly if the Pound goes down the toilet, there is nothing that says Scotland would be forced to join the Euro. You're regurgitating old debunked arguments from the Indy ref.

I'm not saying Scotland has to join the Euro; it obviously doesn't. I'm saying that if Scotland joins the EU, which I know a lot of Scots want, it has to join the EU, which is true. It's very true that Scotland could leave the UK, refuse to join the EU, and either float an independent currency or peg themselves to the pound, although I don't think either of those last two options are especially wise. I was just running through the EU case.

I agree that it would be economically tough, but no tougher than for most small countries once everything was up and running, and, to return to the topic, with the benefit of not erasing our links with the EU and giving us other options for future growth beyond being trapped in either May or Leadsome's vision of the future.

I mean, in the long-run, no, it wouldn't be much harder than it is for other small countries of Scotland's size and wealth. I'm just pointing out that in the short-run there would be: at least a 10% retraction in the amount of public services provided to Scots (or an equivalent increase in taxes), and possibly an even sharper retraction due to the sharp drop in GDP, because at the moment Scotland does very well out of the Barnett formula while, given current oil prices, not being a net contributor. The UKwide deficit peaked at about 7% of GDP in 2010, and the last 6 years of Conservative austerity have only recently managed to hit 2% of GDP. Scotland is looking at an even bigger deficit than that. It would be really, really hard.

This isn't "Project Fear" or whatever and I'm not interested in that. I like Scotland, and I'd be sad to see you go; but as I said earlier in this thread when I heard the result, I really could not blame you in the slightest. But I'm a natural-born pedant and I like facts. The economic impact of Scoxit would be really, really painful. More painful for Scotland than leaving the EU was for the UK, because Scotland is more dependent on the UK than the UK is on the EU. Given how morose everyone is about this thread and the shitfest the pound is going through, that should give you some practical real-world benchmark. Independence is still very much achievable and if you want it, go for it, but it is absolutely not going to be a field of roses at the start; it's going to be an ugly first decade at a minimum.
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
I am tired of this.

You think I don't contribute to the discussion? Fine, have at it.

It's all dooooooom, the Brexiters are nutters, etc. Enjoy your echo chamber.
For what it's worth, even though I don't agree with you, I found your perseverence and composure remarkable and I think most people would've lost their patience way earlier.
 
Firstly EU migration to the UK hasn't been anywhere near a consistent 300,000.
Over the last ten years it has ranged from a high of 184,000 and a low of 58,000.
http://i.imgur.com/GYIwbMO.jpg
The accession of the 2007 countries caused a shock horror increase of 50,000 or 0.0008 per capita.

Secondly, the UK has a TFR below the replacement fertility rate. It has only risen back closer to the replacement rate due to migrants. In the absence of migrants the UK would suffer from an even more disparate generational cohort size, that's going to lead to problems throughout the developed world.

Thirdly, migrants from the European area are net contributors to UK finances.
http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/78781000/gif/_78781192_migration_effects2_464.gif

Finally, claiming migration in itself is some sort of "societal" problem, is borderlining on coded language. The xenophobia and racism unleashed by this being made the focal point of this dumb vote by fuckhead Farage et al is one of the most vile parts of all of this.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Can't believe people still spout this nonsense. London raises revenue because that's where business likes to operate - why? Because that's where the infrastructure is.

It's also partially a clustering effect - wherever you are in the supply chain, you know that in London, the guys ahead and behind you are also there, and there's going to be enough of them for a fully competitive chain. Infrastructure is an easy problem to solve by comparison; for clustering you need something like strategic tax breaks or whatnot for other UK cities that target specific industries from start to finish because you can't just lure businesses out one at a time, you have to bring the entire industry in one go, more or less, or they won't come. Of course, that has been done reasonably well in the past, and it was actually one of early New Labour's success stories - the difference between Cardiff now and Cardiff circa 1995 is absolutely incredible; it's a city reborn. But it wasn't anywhere like on the scale and intensity needed.
 
You might not agree with this view but many people across Europe (and the world) share it. That doesn't make it any better or any less wrong but it makes sense that it's part of the conversation. This fear, as baseless as it is, played a huge role in the decision to leave the EU after all. That's why politicians have realized they have to give people who feel this way something.

I'm not saying immigration isn't wonderful, I'm saying many people disagree and that's just how the world has always been/will always be to some. Only thing we can do is present facts, data. If that doesn't help nothing will. I get the frustration though.
What I meant is that replying to someone claiming "Immigration is at X level and needs to be reduced" by pointing out that their X is bullshit allows the idea that "immigration needs to be reduced" through the backdoor.

I edited my reply, of course immigration is an issue, as in a topic. I'm saying it isn't an issue as in a problem.

The problem is xenophobia.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
But aren't the places that have more immigrants integrated into society the ones who voted more heavily pro-remain?

Edit: Very much beaten.
Okay but it's important that we address the very real and very grave problem that Miriam doesn't like people speaking foreign languages when she's waiting in the queue at the Post Office.
 

klonere

Banned
Cm1cY2vWEAEBwxO.jpg:small
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
For what it's worth, even though I don't agree with you, I found your perseverence and composure remarkable and I think most people would've lost their patience way earlier.

This at least I agree with.

We really ought to have a gentleman's rule on GAF saying no more than one response to a post at a time; the most frustrating part of being on the wrong side of a majority in arguments here is that it takes quite a while to make thought through posts and people get angry when they think you've not bothered replying to their post properly, which mostly happens because you get bombarded by so many it would be impractical not to. No idea how you'd go around making this a social norm here, though.
 

Jonnax

Member
Can't believe people still spout this nonsense. London raises revenue because that's where business likes to operate - why? Because that's where the infrastructure is.

So the rest of the country punishes London by destroying it?
How's that going to attract business to them?
 

*Splinter

Member
I wonder if those 2 graphs are really fair? I mean the implication is that

higher immigration = less fear of immigrants = more likely to vote remain

But isn't it also true that

cities = more liberal = more likely to vote remain
(and, separately)
cities = more opportunity = higher immigration

(My geography isn't great but I'm sure those northern Remain areas were cities as well)
 
I just found a camera I've been lurking for around 700€ less, and the only reason for that is the drop of the £, since its being sold from the UK.

I like where this is going..
 

Micael

Member
Should be said that in the end it really doesn't matter what the UK thinks of the immigration problem, it's what the EU thinks that matters, because they are the ones holding all the cards, even if the UK had a legitimate reason to limit immigration it still doesn't matter, because once again it's not the UK holding the power in that situation, it would be the EU, and the EU is extremely pro-immigration, so one cannot expect to activate something like that without significant repercussions.

As is obvious.

When the relative bargaining power of the other party is an order of magnitude less, you don't need to make concessions.

You take concessions.

On the bright side, they will have gained a lot of experience in taking concessions, and will be able to apply that experience to the USA and China, so they will be able to take concessions a lot quicker, which is handy.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I wonder if those 2 graphs are really fair? I mean the implication is that

higher immigration = less fear of immigrants = more likely to vote remain

But isn't it also true that

cities = more liberal = more likely to vote remain
(and, separately)
cities = more opportunity = higher immigration

(My geography isn't great but I'm sure those northern Remain areas were cities as well)

I mean, it's a multicausal thing. The main point is that the areas most strongly worried by immigration had almost no immigrants. I think the second-highest Leave-voting area had a local immigrant population of 0.6%, for example.
 

gerg

Member
I wonder if those 2 graphs are really fair? I mean the implication is that

higher immigration = less fear of immigrants = more likely to vote remain

But isn't it also true that

cities = more liberal = more likely to vote remain
(and, separately)
cities = more opportunity = higher immigration

(My geography isn't great but I'm sure those northern Remain areas were cities as well)

Broadly speaking you could (and can) correlate the areas that voted Leave with those that have suffered most under government policy up to and including the last three governments.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Broadly speaking you could (and can) correlate the areas that voted Leave with those that have suffered most under government policy up to and including the last three governments.

This as well, which is probably the better explanation.

fucked over by government policy = no economic opportunity = vote to spite the government

plus

fucked over by government policy = no economic opportunity = why would you want to immigrate there?
 

Meadows

Banned
Isn't one exception to this Boston, which has a very high population from Eastern Europe, but had the highest Leave vote in the UK?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Isn't one exception to this Boston, which has a very high population from Eastern Europe, but had the highest Leave vote in the UK?

Hull and the surrounding area in general was also an exception to this rule, so yes. gerg's explanation is the best, to my mind.
 
This as well, which is probably the better explanation.

fucked over by government policy = no economic opportunity = vote to spite the government

plus

fucked over by government policy = no economic opportunity = why would you want to immigrate there?

Where I'm from the Remain campaign was focusing on how much worse off you'd be if you voted out.

We don't have much to lose begin with.

And if you don't have much to lose you don't view it as much of a risk
 

Meadows

Banned
I think that another strange one is Birmingham. If patterns on urban areas voting for Remain would have followed, Birmingham would have been 60/40 remain, but instead it was 49.6/50.4 for Leave.
 

kmag

Member
Given the make up of the UK economy pretty much the worse thing which could happen is rising inflation coupled with falling consumer confidence and spend. (I suppose given the debt profile rising interest rates failing to control inflation would maybe be worse)

Cm1dXsGWgAA0MkG.jpg


oh.
 

Hasney

Member
I just bought an expensive new monitor.

im-doing-my-part.gif


Although confidence is still low... I just think it'll be more expensive in the future.
 

mclem

Member
Given the make up of the UK economy pretty much the worse thing which could happen is rising inflation coupled with falling consumer confidence and spend. (I suppose given the debt profile rising interest rates failing to control inflation would maybe be worse)

Cm1dXsGWgAA0MkG.jpg


oh.

I'm not sure how to read that; what's it saying with the changing values per demographic? Why are youngsters and the wealthy actually quite positive?

I'm amused at the fact that the female figure's skirt gets longer as she ages.
 
This whole conversation and approach from blackcrane is disgusting, as it basically sneaks in the idea that immigration is a problem.

Immigration is wonderful.

Immigration affects different people in different ways. IMO it has a net benefit and as such I'm pro-immigration in general, but there are undoubtedly people whom it affects in a negative way.
 

Rodelero

Member
Where I'm from the Remain campaign was focusing on how much worse off you'd be if you voted out.

We don't have much to lose begin with.

And if you don't have much to lose you don't view it as much of a risk

It's more a case of if you think you don't have much to lose you don't view it as much of a risk. The problem is, for the most part, they do have things to lose, even if they feel relatively poor. No doubt there are some people who really had nothing to lose, but we're talking about a very slim minority of the very large number of Leave voters.

The better off in society can stand to take an economic hit, whereas poorer individuals/families stand to lose everything, at which point they may realise they had quite a lot to lose in the first place. Hopefully, for their sakes, the gamble pays off.
 
It's more a case of if you think you don't have much to lose you don't view it as much of a risk. The problem is, for the most part, they do have things to lose, even if they feel relatively poor. No doubt there are some people who really had nothing to lose, but we're talking about a very slim minority of the very large number of Leave voters.

The better off in society can stand to take an economic hit, whereas poorer individuals/families stand to lose everything, at which point they may realise they had quite a lot to lose in the first place. Hopefully, for their sakes, the gamble pays off.

Yeah that's what I meant - much more eloquently put
 
Finally, claiming migration in itself is some sort of "societal" problem, is borderlining on coded language. The xenophobia and racism unleashed by this being made the focal point of this dumb vote by fuckhead Farage et al is one of the most vile parts of all of this.

I spent three years in East Yorkshire at uni, started a relationship with a girl on the same course, and moved back to West Yorkshire with her for a couple of years where she had grown up. We lived in the same village as her parents, who had lived there all their lives after they'd left home. Their parents lived in the next village along, literally walking distance. And their parents had lived on the other side the nearest town (Huddersfield, about 20 mins walk away). Eventually I convinced my girlfriend to come back down to the south east with me where there was more work, and her mother who happens to be really into genealogy pointed out that she would be the first female in the family line to leave West Yorkshire in six generations.

Now that just seemed quaint and innocently amusing at the time, but I'm convinced it's a big reason behind why the North, Yorkshire especially, voted so heavily in favour of leaving the EU. My girlfriend's brother still lives in West Yorkshire (married now, so branched out and moved down the road with his wife to his own village...) and even though he's degree educated and mid 20's he was still convinced that leaving was important specifically because of the social and cultural issues that immigration was causing. He was convinced that all the immigrants were settling up north, and that I wouldn't understand because I live down south near London where all the money is and the only immigrants I need to worry about are the occasional American doctor or German bank manager. It was about this point that I gave up the "discussion". I don't think he realizes how damaging his insular lifestyle is. Heck, even for his honeymoon he went to York.

Obviously that's not stupidity, it's just a strangely common Yorkshire thing, where many of them are so proud of their counties that they don't want to, or even see the point in, moving beyond them. But it's definitely been a hugely contributing factor to the referendum, and I detest Farage for playing up these misguided fears with his propaganda. Especially that poster...
 
Eventually I convinced my girlfriend to come back down to the south east with me where there was more work, and her mother who happens to be really into genealogy pointed out that she would be the first female in the family line to leave West Yorkshire in six generations.

That - is probably extremely common.

I was the first in our family to travel outside of Europe, move to work abroad for a while etc etc.

I have parents that moved from there old hometown offshore.

They're now wanting to move back to there old hometown.
Having traveled around England a lot I ask them "why? It's a sh*thole?" (not because of immigrants but infrastructure is falling apart - its obvious clear as day when you revisit the place several years apart)

And they say it's there home - despite having not lived there for 20 years....

Does my nut in when I know if they opened there eyes they could pick the perfect retirement town/village.
 
It's also partially a clustering effect - wherever you are in the supply chain, you know that in London, the guys ahead and behind you are also there, and there's going to be enough of them for a fully competitive chain. Infrastructure is an easy problem to solve by comparison; for clustering you need something like strategic tax breaks or whatnot for other UK cities that target specific industries from start to finish because you can't just lure businesses out one at a time, you have to bring the entire industry in one go, more or less, or they won't come. Of course, that has been done reasonably well in the past, and it was actually one of early New Labour's success stories - the difference between Cardiff now and Cardiff circa 1995 is absolutely incredible; it's a city reborn. But it wasn't anywhere like on the scale and intensity needed.

Plus, of course, there's a limit to how much you can do that because, for the most part, you're just cannibalising industry from elsewhere. The success of the Docklands redevelopment in London was a direct response to - amongst all the tax breaks and Jubilee line extensions - a massive, pent up demand due to the geographical limitations of the square mile. But this is a) something that can be tapped once, or at least once it a blue moon as demand builds into its new, enlarged surroundings and b) was something of a unique scenario in the UK. One thing that's probably worth doing is spreading out public institutions more so than they currently are, but there also are benefits to, say, all the government offices and civil servants being within a 5 walk from each other.
 

Bold One

Member
I have a pregnant friend who stressing out badly about the future, she is still so angry.

I am trying my best to calm her nerves, and tell her everything is going to be okay,


I have been lying essentially.....
 

Beefy

Member
I have a pregnant friend who stressing out badly about the future, she is still so angry.

I am trying my best to calm her nerves, and tell her everything is going to be okay,


I have been lying essentially.....

She best hope Leadsom doesn't become PM then. Leadson thinks maternity leave for small businesses should be scrapped.
 

El Topo

Member
New German polls:

About the UK deciding to leave the EU:
70% Not good / 12% Good / 16% Don't care

About possible concessions the EU should make in negotiations with the UK:
10% EU should make very strong or strong concessions / 49% not that strong concessions / 37% no concessions at all / 4% don't know

51% believe the EU is benefitial for Germany while only 10% believe the disantvages are bigger than the advantages (the rest says they equal each other out).
The EU has never been more popular in Germany.

http://www.heute.de/nach-dem-brexit...gen-terroranschlaegen-geaendert-44298798.html

Translation: Germany won't go easy in the negotiations.

I think this isn't surprising to any German. Pretty much what we've said since the vote. As for negotiations, the German government could always pull a Siggi if things are delayed long enough.
 

Micael

Member
I have a pregnant friend who stressing out badly about the future, she is still so angry.

I am trying my best to calm her nerves, and tell her everything is going to be okay,


I have been lying essentially.....

Well it's likely going to be okay really, we aren't talking about a major war here, plenty of countries even inside the EU live with poorer conditions than what the UK is likely to end up in, sure you will likely have less purchasing power, unemployment will likely increase, you might not be able to go to vacations as often or as easily and so on, but suspect that for a large part of the population (no idea where she sits) life will carry on without major difficulties, just less perks.
 
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