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still have a hard time fathoming how you can blame him for this...
it's like jumping out of a plane without a parachute and then blaming the guy who wanted to stay on the plane.

If a leader finds the idea of a negative result of a referendum so unacceptable they have no plan for it and resign immediately then maybe it should be a big enough issue for them to resign instead of being forced to start the referendum process.

 

[Engell]

If the guy who stayed on the plane is the one who opened the door, suggested jumping out as an option and then told the flight attendants not to prepare the parachutes for the possible eventuality of someone wanting to jump out... then I'm all on board with your analogy and yes he deserves blame.

well i hope you all land softly at some point..
also you still have the option to just stay on the plane, it still requires a parliament vote to jump, but guess the British pride(or what ever it's called) will still result in a jump.

also super retarded media/coverage/debates/voters if no one actually asked what the plan is/was/wasn't

 

[Palculator]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/personal-values-brexit-vote/

UK pls

Is the title of that article referencing this? If so, this is the best article ever. If not, it's

Spoiler

still a pretty interesting read.

 

[Daffy Duck]

well i hope you all land softly at some point..
also you still have the option to just stay on the plane, it still requires a parliament vote to jump, but guess the British pride(or what ever it's called) will still result in a jump.

also super retarded media/coverage/debates/voters if no one actually asked what the plan is/was/wasn't

The government are going to jump, just got to decide when.

 

[Rich!]

Went to buy some bacon earlier at 6am. Saw the front page of today's Daily Mail in the co op

The main article is complaining about "greedy" holiday companies charging extra because the pound has gone down.

looooooooooooooooooool

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

hahaha

 

[jimbobsmells]

Margaret Thatcher Mk II: The Reckoning versus the bastard love child of Donald Trump and Sarah Palin. But remember, only one 'is a mother', so clearly that qualifies her as PM.
British politics is utter trash.

 

[Theonik]

Went to buy some bacon earlier at 6am. Saw the front page of today's Daily Mail in the co op

The main article is complaining about "greedy" holiday companies charging extra because the pound has gone down.

looooooooooooooooooool

Can't wait for them to call prices on imported goods in supermarkets going up as power play from the EU.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Went to buy some bacon earlier at 6am. Saw the front page of today's Daily Mail in the co op

The main article is complaining about "greedy" holiday companies charging extra because the pound has gone down.

looooooooooooooooooool

Because Daily Mail readers only give a tupenny shit about the economy if it affects their alcohol binges in Magaluf.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I love how Leadsom challenged The Times to publish the manuscript of her interview and they did, and the tape, and yes, it's exactly what she said. I don't know on what grounds she can ask for a retraction. Perhaps she's referring to the bit where she says something akin to "I don't want to make this about who has children..." which holds about as much water as "I'm not racist but.." and really just shows she's thick as shit.

However, we are in an era in which people can print claims on the side of a bus without being held to account so I suppose she'll get away with it.

Went to buy some bacon earlier at 6am. Saw the front page of today's Daily Mail in the co op

The main article is complaining about "greedy" holiday companies charging extra because the pound has gone down.

looooooooooooooooooool

Don't even get me started on those fat cats at the Beaurea de Change.

 

[Wvrs]

Well, you will soon discover that we also have our own kind of dumb people here in France, and I'm sorry for that.
But I'm quite surprised those stupid guys even cared about Brexit at all: nearly every one of my fellow French citizen I speak to seems to either not care, or is of the opinion that "meh, nothing will change, business will find its way" (sigh).
Anyways, I hope you won't let this get to you too much, and enjoy our nice country: not all of us are like that. I hope these will remain an exception and that you will feel welcomed here.

Oh yes I understand that, been here nearly three weeks and that's the first time it's happened. It was just a sad reminder of something that hasn't really felt real to me yet, as I've been in Europe since before the referendum result (got my postal vote in beforehand.)

But maybe it's because we're British but a lot of people have spoken to us about it. Again, usually in a kind way and sympathetic to the fact that it was the 50+ vote responsible.

Aside from that I'm loving France and looking forward to moving here for work after I graduate.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Anyone else glad Gove is out of the race? He's the cause of all of this, and he strikes me as the kind of person who would isolate Britain from the rest of the world and start 8 wars by the end of his tenure.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Anyone else glad Gove is out of the race? He's the cause of all of this, and he strikes me as the kind of person who would isolate Britain from the rest of the world and start 8 wars by the end of his tenure.

You could most generously describe him as his wife's sock puppet, though Leadsom is arguably worse and May is little better. All are woeful.

 

[maquiladora]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/personal-values-brexit-vote/



UK pls

Not at all surprising.

 

[Theonik]

Anyone else glad Gove is out of the race? He's the cause of all of this, and he strikes me as the kind of person who would isolate Britain from the rest of the world and start 8 wars by the end of his tenure.

In the end I'm at odds about this one. On one hand Gove is an incompetent piece of shit and would be dangerous as PM. On the other hand, Gove stood no chance even with the bonkers Tory membership.
Leadsom on the other hand does. Because that's just the kind of nutjobs Tory members are.

 

[Hasney]

Went to buy some bacon earlier at 6am.

When I started reading this post, I thought it was going to be about bacons price rising. I was all ready to start a new march.

But yeah, I'm hating how some papers aren't blaming leaving the EU on things like that yet.

 

[Jezbollah]

I still can't believe that shithead David Cameron organized this referendum without a single clue what he'd do, as leader, if leave won. Mind-boggling stuff...

Well. That's not entirely accurate IMO. He had a plan for both the Scottish referendum and EU referendum if he lost. He resigned.

 

[Uzzy]

Well. That's not entirely accurate IMO. He had a plan for both the Scottish referendum and EU referendum if he lost. He resigned.

Britain's aren't quitters though.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

good economic news for scotland now

http://www.thenational.scot/news/tr...-leaving-uk-is-now-a-golden-opportunity.19786

 

[Showaddy]

good economic news for scotland now

http://www.thenational.scot/news/tr...-leaving-uk-is-now-a-golden-opportunity.19786

Seems a bit optimistic. Especially the bit about Scotland getting fast tracked into the EU.

 

[Jezbollah]

Seems a bit optimistic. Especially the bit about Scotland getting fast tracked into the EU.

..which Spain seems to have a problem with.

 

[Showaddy]

..which Spain seems to have a problem with.

And I doubt the other countries who have been toiling away trying to join the EU for so long would be happy with Scotland jumping the queue either.

 

[cormack12]

Still needed
So far, unemployed people in the UK have proven reluctant to take on these jobs.
"The English don't like to work like us," says Roxana. "They will never come to work on a farm.

"If they come, they want to be someone high [up], to be a supervisor or a manager, but not to pick."

Forklift truck team leader Andis Ivkins agrees. "I don't believe they'll send us home," he says. "I don't believe the English people will come and pick fruit."

He is from Latvia and his wife is from Lithuania. His face lights up as he explains they are about to have their first baby.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36702235

This is the crux of the whole argument isn't really. If we send them all home, the young and unemployed won't be arsed doing these jobs - well until they get forced to do them. Which was blocked by the European Human Rights Court I believe - something our new PM Theresa May is not a fan of, and will eventually find a way around.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I saw this on facebook.

 

[Kathian]

Seeing Leadsom on the news - she wants this out there. Meanwhile her vaux outrage is her attempt to have it out there but not look cold.

Her electorate are going to be socially conservative whilst Teresa is going after the same electorate who just lost a referendum and are a minority in the Tory party.

 

[2MF]

Well. That's not entirely accurate IMO. He had a plan for both the Scottish referendum and EU referendum if he lost. He resigned.

But that's not governing the country. Which is his job.

Quitting when the referendum you called doesn't go the way you wanted it to go, isn't governing...

Bottom line, he called for a referendum which had a chance of putting the country in turmoil, and didn't mitigate the turmoil at all. Just bailed out.

Maybe I missed the outrage against him, but I think he got off easy.

 

[Joni]

And I doubt the other countries who have been toiling away trying to join the EU for so long would be happy with Scotland jumping the queue either.

I think Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania should be smart enough to realize that a country that is already a member of the European Union already meets the majority of the 35 chapters they have to comply with. Macedonia and Albania have opened a grand 0 chapters, Serbia has opened 2 chapters. Montenegro has opened 24 and closed 2 making them the closest. But still at least a decade away, that after a decade or more.

 

[Pandy]

An independent Scotland will be worse off economically in the short term. There's not really any way around it. The important point is that a lot of the longer term uncertainty has been removed by much stronger support from northern European EU countries which makes the medium term prospects a lot more positive than before. Spain won't gain much by standing in the way of the EU pulling off the largest PR trick in its history considering their current condition, and can realistically claim the current situation is extraordinary and would not apply to Catalonia unless Spain left the EU, regardless of whatever legal approach would be used.

In terms of national 'income', GDP and what have you, then of course I agree but when talking about national debt/deficit it's a much messier picture and one that will only really be cleared up when the circumstances of any departure from the UK are negotiated.

Sooner or later economic prospects will have to be debated. One of the problems of the last indy ref was that the Yes campaign locked itself into some pretty stupid stances by not taking the economic arguments seriously until it was too late to quietly listen and learn from the criticisms thrown its way without looking stupid.

I absolutely agree that they have to be debated, just seems fairly off topic in this thread, and odd to attempt when we have no idea of the circumstances. If an Indyref2 is announced I'm sure the Scottish Government would come with another timetable, and a determination whether they believe we would stay in the EU or have to go out and reapply, or whatever, and the UK's exit strategy from the EU might be clearer by that point and we'd have a few numbers to start guesstimating around. It really is a fruitless exercise until then.

As for the Indy ref, the 'Yes' side were the only side willing to take economic discussion seriously. You can't blame them for talking about their 'A1' scenario, when the other side wouldn't engage with them except to say that they were wrong.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21010470

Meanwhile, Cameron's detailed financial plan in the event off a 'Yes' vote:

Originally Posted by Dan27

Well. That's not entirely accurate IMO. He had a plan for both the Scottish referendum and EU referendum if he lost. He resigned.

 

[Lego Boss]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/personal-values-brexit-vote/



UK pls

This is fascinating as it points towards a genuine shift from left/right state/market politics to identity politics: the personal is definitely the political here.

The Economist hinted as much in its last issue. Much as l think that that BREXIT is retrograde this is the beginning of the manifestation a genuinely new political paradigm. In that way it should be embraced: the old parties just aren't going to cut it any more

 

[KingSnake]

..which Spain seems to have a problem with.

If Scotland gets its independence legally and outside EU there's nothing Spain can say about it. Slovakia and Croatia are seceded countries and they are now in EU. Unless Spain plans on leaving EU there's no real precedent with Scotland in this case.

This Spanish position is overblown in my opinion.

 

[Beefy]

I wonder how low the 'debate' will get? Seeing as Leadsom has started it the lowest I have seen in years.

 

[Nivash]

This is fascinating as it points towards a genuine shift from left/right state/market politics to identity politics: the personal is definitely the political here.

The Economist hinted as much in its last issue. Much as l think that that BREXIT is retrograde this is the beginning of the manifestation a genuinely new political paradigm. In that way it should be embraced: the old parties just aren't going to cut it any more

It is as disturbing as it is fascinating, though. Once the public discourse is dominated by identity politics it usually follows that the groups with differing identities get increasingly polarised and hostile. It's a highly volatile state that leads to irrational decisions - like Brexit - when people are OK with hurting themselves as long as the other group gets hurt more. It is the kind of state that can break nations and persecute minorities.

If Scotland gets its independence legally and outside EU there's nothing Spain can say about it. Slovakia and Croatia are seceded countries and they are now in EU. Unless Spain plans on leaving EU there's no real precedent with Scotland in this case.

This Spanish position is overblown in my opinion.

The Spanish position made more sense during the Scottish referendum than now. Back then, you could argue that it would set a precedent that parts of EU members could secede at any time and rejoin. Now, the only precedent it really sets is that if any EU member leaves and a devolved part of it wants to stay, it can be OK for them to break off to rejoin. Unless Spain is planning on leaving and their potential breakaway parts want to stay, it shouldn't have any logical impact on their domestic politics.

 

[BigAl1992]

I wonder how low the 'debate' will get? Seeing as Leadsom has started it the lowest I have seen in years.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst. That's what I'd say in this situation.

Although that said, I'd fully expect the worst to occur, and then some.

 

[PdotMichael]

If Scotland gets its independence legally and outside EU there's nothing Spain can say about it. Slovakia and Croatia are seceded countries and they are now in EU. Unless Spain plans on leaving EU there's no real precedent with Scotland in this case.

This Spanish position is overblown in my opinion.

Isn't it like a made-up argument by the stay crowd? Did Spania ever say they would veto Scotland (but not Slovakia or Crotia)?

 

[Nivash]

Isn't it like a made-up argument by the stay crowd? Did Spania ever say they would veto Scotland (but not Slovakia or Crotia)?

I'm not sure if they ever threatened a veto, but they certainly haven't made any secret of their opposition. They're still heavily opposed, after all.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-independence-spain-alex-salmond-eu

http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/06/30/inenglish/1467273803_871148.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/spain-independent-scotland-years-eu-membership

 

[KingSnake]

I'm not sure if they ever threatened a veto, but they certainly haven't made any secret of their opposition. They're still heavily opposed, after all.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/scottish-independence-spain-alex-salmond-eu

http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/06/30/inenglish/1467273803_871148.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/spain-independent-scotland-years-eu-membership

The Guardian links point to the 1st indy referendum, which is a totally different situation that could have somehow been a precedent for Catalonia. Even so, notice how he didn't say they would veto Scotland joining in via the normal process of joining EU even in the first place.

The recent comment (from El Pais) refers to the hypothetical situation in which UK exit but Scotland stays, which is also something that is not really possible going by the currently available mechanisms unless UK goes totally nuts and England and Wales exit EU as countries and Scotland remains as UK. Bonkers.

As for Scotland joining EU back as an independent country:

But the Spanish leader did not disclose whether Spain would veto a hypothetical membership application by an independent Scotland, alleging that he would rather not get ahead of himself.

So, no, there's isn't any real threat from Spain for this scenario (which is also the most realistic one).

 

[hans_castorp]

Isn't it like a made-up argument by the stay crowd? Did Spania ever say they would veto Scotland (but not Slovakia or Crotia)?

Rajoy said they would veto Scotland staying in the EU if the UK leaves.
If Scotland breaks from the UK and then applies for the UE, they won´t veto it

Even more, last summer he was explicitly asked wheter they would veto a Scotland membership and he refused to answer. Thrice.

 

[Joni]

There are ways to convince Spain if the other countries really want an independent Scotland in the European Union. Spain can object now but nobody has already tried to convince them of the alternative gains they can make.

 

[kmag]

Rajoy said they would veto Scotland staying in the EU if the UK leaves.
If Scotland breaks from the UK and then applies for the UE, they won´t veto it

Even more, last summer he was explicitly asked wheter they would veto a Scotland membership and he refused to answer. Thrice.

I must admit I really don't get the Spanish position. If Scotland leaves the UK under a constitutional valid settlement I really don't see what relevance that would have for Spain where accession is constitutionally forbidden.

 

[Hazzuh]

This whole discussion regarding Spain blocking Scotland's membership of the EU is a good example of where the EU falls down though. Spanish domestic politics (Catalan independence) shouldn't be the thing deciding Scotland's membership of the EU. Scotland joining wouldn't negatively impact Spain in any way, it's ridiculous.

 

[oti]

Some diplomatic chatter regarding Brexit in Warsaw, where the NATO is currently meeting.

Behind closed doors Obama asked Juncker and Tusk how quickly the UK could leave the EU and what the trade relationship between the UK and the EU could look like after all is said and done. He wants the markets to calm down. Apparently Juncker and Tusk told him their number one priority for now was unity amongst the 27 remaining members and that the UK was delaying the process anyway.

Here's my highlight though: Erdogan asked Cameron who'd be left to lobby for Turkey's EU membership once the UK is out (again, behind closed doors). Cameron's answer was Italy and the Netherlands. An answer Erdogan wasn't too fond of.

Fun times.

http://m.heute.de/ZDF/zdfportal/xml/object/44323832

 

[maquiladora]

This whole discussion regarding Spain blocking Scotland's membership of the EU is a good example of where the EU falls down though. Spanish domestic politics (Catalan independence) shouldn't be the thing deciding Scotland's membership of the EU. Scotland joining wouldn't negatively impact Spain in any way, it's ridiculous.

Well the fact that unanimous consent is required from each and every member state is part of what the makes the EU great. That way no major decision is made unless every nation, even the smallest ones, are in agreement. I'd rather have that than a system where decisions were made by a majority, or worse still, made by a Security Council style select committee of nations on behalf of all the other nations.

Regarding Spain. Domestic politics change. What is unpopular now may become possible in a few years time. That's if Scotland ever gets a chance to vote on becoming independent again. Right now, it's very hard to see Westminster giving them that opportunity.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Maybe I'm ignorant here, but Scotland can call for a ref and secede with or without Westminster's consent right?

 

[Maledict]

Maybe I'm ignorant here, but Scotland can call for a ref and secede with or without Westminster's consent right?

No. Constitutional matters are decided by Westminster, that's the law. So if Scotland wants a referendum that's legally binding, Westminster needs to agree to it.

If they don't, then Scotland can hold a referendum but it won't mean anything. Even if they declare independence, no country (other than maybe Russia) is going to recognise them. No-one is going to play politics with this issue - Scotland would be isolated diplomatically and economically. Unilateral secession is not realistically on the cards in any way,

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

So Scotland is forever in this union then. I see no reason for any Westminster government to ever allow Scotland to leave.

What would that say though, if Scotland did have a ref and Westminster denied it. What would it really mean for the union?

 

[FlammableD]

So Scotland is forever in this union then. I see no reason for any Westminster government to ever allow Scotland to leave.

What would that say though, if Scotland did have a ref and Westminster denied it. What would it really mean for the union?

I mean it would strengthen that left/right yellow/blue scotland/england politcal divide, but I think that's already far gone enough that they don't care. Scotland doesn't have enough power to override them.

 

[SporeCrawler]

No. Constitutional matters are decided by Westminster, that's the law. So if Scotland wants a referendum that's legally binding, Westminster needs to agree to it.

If they don't, then Scotland can hold a referendum but it won't mean anything. Even if they declare independence, no country (other than maybe Russia) is going to recognise them. No-one is going to play politics with this issue - Scotland would be isolated diplomatically and economically. Unilateral secession is not realistically on the cards in any way,

But what if the EU acknowledges them and accepts them as a member?

 

[grumble]

I must admit I really don't get the Spanish position. If Scotland leaves the UK under a constitutional valid settlement I really don't see what relevance that would have for Spain where accession is constitutionally forbidden.

It's all about their own issues. They don't want to give any ideas to Catalonia

 

[chadskin]

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought

The turnout among young people aged 18 to 24 in the EU referendum was almost double the level that has been widely reported since polling day, according to evidence compiled at the London School of Economics.

The new findings – based on detailed polling conducted since the referendum by Opinium, and analysed by Michael Bruter, professor of political science and European politics at the LSE, and his colleague, Dr Sarah Harrison – suggests the turnout was 64% among this age group.

It has been widely assumed since the referendum that the turnout among young people was around 36% – a figure that has allowed Brexit campaigners to say young people cannot claim that they were betrayed by older pro-Brexit voters, as almost two-thirds did not bother to vote.

Bruter and Harrison say the lower and wrong estimate was based on information released by Sky Data which relied on data compiled after last year’s general election, which looked at the proportion within each generation who said they always vote.

The new, far higher, figures emerged after Opinium conducted post-referendum polling among 2,002 people that asked four questions about how and whether they voted. They asked whether people voted at polling stations or by post, whether they were registered but did not vote, and whether they were not registered at all.

The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU.

18-24: 64%
25-39: 65%
40-54: 66%
55-64: 74%
65+: 90%

 

[gerg]

Does the article clarify what percentage of young voters were registered to vote in the first place, and how that compares with other age groups?