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[King_Moc]

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought


18-24: 64%
25-39: 65%
40-54: 66%
55-64: 74%
65+: 90%

So yeah, the nearly dead fucked us all. And now we must all work more, more, more to pay their pensions. This vote barely affected them.

 

[Alx]

That's a high turnout all around, but 90% is really impressive..'

 

[2MF]

So yeah, the nearly dead fucked us all. And now we must all work more, more, more to pay their pensions. This vote barely affected them.

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

 

[Piecake]

I must admit I really don't get the Spanish position. If Scotland leaves the UK under a constitutional valid settlement I really don't see what relevance that would have for Spain where accession is constitutionally forbidden.

probably don't want to set any precedent that an offshoot of a country can gain instant membership into the EU considering that Spain has independence movements in its own country.

I am sure Catalonia (that the right one?) independence would gain some steam if they were instant EU members and did not have to go through a laborious process.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I must admit I really don't get the Spanish position. If Scotland leaves the UK under a constitutional valid settlement I really don't see what relevance that would have for Spain where accession is constitutionally forbidden.

Constitutionally forbidden doesn't mean much in this context. Title X is not a protected provision, but provides for the other protected provisions, so the other provisions are de facto not protected (think Fixed Term Parliament Act). Any majority government which was so willing could allow Catalunya to lawfully secede, hence U-Podemos. This is why anti-secession politicians are so keen to stress that they'd use their veto, because even if U-Podemos sneaks in for a term or whatever, Catalunyans have to be confident that anti-secessionists would remain out of power for the entire EU accession process, which is unlikely.

This means that the Spanish thought process is "do absolutely everything we can to stress how much we would bend Catalunya over if it thought about independence", to which the treatment of other independent states is obviously relevant.

 

[Joni]

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

I would assume that the election being held on a work day is a large reason why the presence is so much lower in the working age people.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

No. Constitutional matters are decided by Westminster, that's the law. So if Scotland wants a referendum that's legally binding, Westminster needs to agree to it.

If they don't, then Scotland can hold a referendum but it won't mean anything. Even if they declare independence, no country (other than maybe Russia) is going to recognise them. No-one is going to play politics with this issue - Scotland would be isolated diplomatically and economically. Unilateral secession is not realistically on the cards in any way,

Westminster can't even make legally binding referendums as far as I'm aware, as parliament cannot bind future parliaments. They can't be more than consultative.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

Everyone under the age of 55 essentially had equal likelihood to vote - the MoE is larger than the difference between those blocs. Given that that encompasses a wide array of generational variance, everything from people whose political adulthood was under Callaghan to those whose political adulthood was under Brown or even Cameron, I don't think we can say that this is a generational thing; I'd guess it has more to do with the fact these demographics have jobs and lives and things to do, rather than being retired.

Cameron should have had made the referendum day a holiday.

 

[Lego Boss]

No. Constitutional matters are decided by Westminster, that's the law. So if Scotland wants a referendum that's legally binding, Westminster needs to agree to it.

If they don't, then Scotland can hold a referendum but it won't mean anything. Even if they declare independence, no country (other than maybe Russia) is going to recognise them. No-one is going to play politics with this issue - Scotland would be isolated diplomatically and economically. Unilateral secession is not realistically on the cards in any way,

Obvious flippant response: Just like the rest of the UK in relation to the EU then!!

 

[Faddy]

No. Constitutional matters are decided by Westminster, that's the law. So if Scotland wants a referendum that's legally binding, Westminster needs to agree to it.

If they don't, then Scotland can hold a referendum but it won't mean anything. Even if they declare independence, no country (other than maybe Russia) is going to recognise them. No-one is going to play politics with this issue - Scotland would be isolated diplomatically and economically. Unilateral secession is not realistically on the cards in any way,

The situation is that all the Scottish party leaders including Conservative Ruth Davidson accepts that the Scottish parliament has the right to call a referendum and that it shouldn't be blocked or ignored.

In Spain those who oppose Catalan independence are told to ignore and not participate in any aspect of the referendum to de-legitimise the process. I don't know what the turnout is for those but in 2014 it was 86%. A similar turnout would make it impossible for Westminster to refuse to accept the result.

 

[Jezbollah]

Cameron should have had made the referendum day a holiday.

Question for you (and everyone else!)

Are you in favor or not of compulsory voting?

 

[Mr. Sam]

Westminster can't even make legally binding referendums as far as I'm aware, as parliament cannot bind future parliaments. They can't be more than consultative.

I remember reading that the referendum on adopting the alternative vote was legally binding, so that might not be the case.

 

[King_Moc]

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

The side that voted out of hate are surely worse?

 

[Lego Boss]

I am.in favour of compulsory voting. You have to do jury service in a democracy so why shouldn't you be required to vote?

It's not too much to ask and if you don't like it then spoil the vote or have a no vote option.

Let's do this.

 

[electroshockwave]

It's a lot easier to vote when you've lived at the same address for thirty years and don't have work to go to. If you're young and moving between rented accommodations you may not be registered or yours may not be up to date.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I remember reading that the referendum on adopting the alternative vote was legally binding, so that might not be the case.

I've been told by people who know better than me that might have been subject to legal challenge. As I understand it, the wording of the Act was such that if Yes happened, the law was one thing, and if No happened, it was the other, which apparently has no precedent in the law of England and Wales (I have no idea about Scotland, but I would assume the same).

 

[daviyoung]

It's a lot easier to vote when you've lived at the same address for thirty years and don't have work to go to. If you're young and moving between rented accommodations you may not be registered or yours may not be up to date.

it's their responsibility, if they wanted to vote they would have found a way to get registered

anyway, this line of argument is disingenuous, non-voters are irrelevant since they didn't play

 

[Jezbollah]

It's a lot easier to vote when you've lived at the same address for thirty years and don't have work to go to. If you're young and moving between rented accommodations you may not be registered or yours may not be up to date.

Even if you're living in rented accommodation, you will have a number of things you need to change when you move. Electoral register should always be on that list. I know when I moved house last year it was pretty much amongst the first things I did.

The thing is, if you are serious about voting, then you make sure you are in a position to get your ballot leaflet a couple of weeks before. You also make sure you get to the polling station on the day (theres a reason it's open until 10pm). And if you have any kind of inkling that you wont be able to, there's the postal vote. That's of course if you're serious about your vote.....

(out of that list of demographics and percentage, personally I'm shocked that the demographics of 40+ were not a lot higher.....)

 

[electroshockwave]

I'm not saying it's not anyone's personal responsibility and that the steps to take aren't small relative to the importance of voting but it is something that naturally disadvantages young, working people.

 

[Uzzy]

Question for you (and everyone else!)

Are you in favor or not of compulsory voting?

Not in favour.

I'm all in favour of making voting easier, exploring online voting, making voting day a holiday etc. But I don't believe the state should force people to recognise it's own democratic legitimacy.

 

[JonathanEx]

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

Well, even if those 1 in 3 did vote, probably remain, that wouldn't have swayed the vote enough to have made it remain?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I've never really understood the point of compulsory voting. If people can't manage to vote because they're not able to get away from work or whatever, make the election day a holiday. If they're not voting because they're choosing not to vote, what does making them vote accomplish? They'll either turn up and draw a dick on the ballot paper, or make an entirely uninformed vote just for the sake of doing it. It's a well-known fact in political science that being on the top of the ballot paper already gives you an advantage of up to 0.8% percentage points; a slightly less known fact is that figure is approximately doubled in Australia.

 

[Condom]

This whole discussion regarding Spain blocking Scotland's membership of the EU is a good example of where the EU falls down though. Spanish domestic politics (Catalan independence) shouldn't be the thing deciding Scotland's membership of the EU. Scotland joining wouldn't negatively impact Spain in any way, it's ridiculous.

What can we do except maybe negotiate and hope they change their position. Geopolitics can be quite frustrating.

 

[CassSept]

I would blame the young non-voters more. Even with the higher figures, more than 1 out of 3 didn't vote.

It's still a fairly impressive turnout for that age group, I'm sure you'd be hard-pressed to find a similar result worldwide in any recent voting in a country where voting is not compulsory. It's a completely different problem on it's own, but that's the way it is.

 

[nature boy]

So Scotland is forever in this union then. I see no reason for any Westminster government to ever allow Scotland to leave.

What would that say though, if Scotland did have a ref and Westminster denied it. What would it really mean for the union?

Uh, that's politically unsustainable.

 

[Theonik]

That's a high turnout all around, but 90% is really impressive..'

Retirees always vote in droves because they have nothing better to do.

Question for you (and everyone else!)

Are you in favor or not of compulsory voting?

I'm definitely against. Voting should be easier, voting day should be a holiday for instance and measures should be put into place to allow people access to polling stations regardless of their circumstances. Free public transport perhaps.

However, non-compulsory voting has the benefit, that people who are going to vote should at least care enough to cast a vote, which eliminates a lot of voters which would just go because it's compulsory.

 

[LilJoka]

Retirees always vote in droves because they have nothing better to do.


I'm definitely against. Voting should be easier, voting day should be a holiday for instance and measures should be put into place to allow people access to polling stations regardless of their circumstances. Free public transport perhaps.

However, non-compulsory voting has the benefit, that people who are going to vote should at least care enough to cast a vote, which eliminates a lot of voters which would just go because it's compulsory.

Should be able to vote online!
Nobody even does an ID check at the poll station.

 

[blu]

Some diplomatic chatter regarding Brexit in Warsaw, where the NATO is currently meeting.

Behind closed doors Obama asked Juncker and Tusk how quickly the UK could leave the EU and what the trade relationship between the UK and the EU could look like after all is said and done. He wants the markets to calm down. Apparently Juncker and Tusk told him their number one priority for now was unity amongst the 27 remaining members and that the UK was delaying the process anyway.

Here's my highlight though: Erdogan asked Cameron who'd be left to lobby for Turkey's EU membership once the UK is out (again, behind closed doors). Cameron's answer was Italy and the Netherlands. An answer Erdogan wasn't too fond of.

Fun times.

http://m.heute.de/ZDF/zdfportal/xml/object/44323832

Well, that explains the sudden warming up of the relations between Putin and Erdogan.

Fun times indeed.

 

[Theonik]

Should be able to vote online!
Nobody even does an ID check at the poll station.

Online voting is not a terribly great idea.

 

[LilJoka]

Online voting is not a terribly great idea.

I see, some fair points raised.

I say this as some people couldn't even vote due to floods.

 

[Theonik]

I see, some fair points raised.

I say this as some people couldn't even vote due to floods.

It is a problem, but this is not a great way of addressing it and ultimately there is a balance between making votes hard to rig and making voting easier.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Is there no early voting or mail in voting in the UK? Just a single session for all on election day?

 

[War Peaceman]

Is there no early voting or mail in voting in the UK? Just a single session for all on election day?

There is. But a lot of people were too slow to do it. Also, there were quite a lot of problems with overseas postal voting.

 

[hodgy100]

Is there no early voting or mail in voting in the UK? Just a single session for all on election day?

There is a postal vote. This is how I voted sent it off 2 weeks before the actual election day

 

[Coriolanus]

I've never really understood the point of compulsory voting. If people can't manage to vote because they're not able to get away from work or whatever, make the election day a holiday. If they're not voting because they're choosing not to vote, what does making them vote accomplish? They'll either turn up and draw a dick on the ballot paper, or make an entirely uninformed vote just for the sake of doing it. It's a well-known fact in political science that being on the top of the ballot paper already gives you an advantage of up to 0.8% percentage points; a slightly less known fact is that figure is approximately doubled in Australia.

aaand i now have a sudden burst of respect for the brazilian electronic voting system (ignoring all the safety concerns related to it for a tad).

It doesn't show anything until you input the candidate's numbers. Can't even access a list of candidates in the machine. Either you know the number of who you're voting for or you're voting blank.

hmm, googling around a bit, seems that adoption of the system caused a 10% decrease in spoilt votes in one fell swoop.

 

[LilJoka]

Is there no early voting or mail in voting in the UK? Just a single session for all on election day?

There is, but easy to miss. Plus the campaigns were in shambles at the point where you could do a postal vote.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

sweet dreams, all

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-tory-mps-talk

 

[Piecake]

sweet dreams, all

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-tory-mps-talk

Wait, aren't they basically talking about forming another lib dem party?

Seems like it would likely be another pro-austerity party. I really have no idea why Europe went balls deep into the Austerity craze and America only dipped the tip in thanks to some crazy republicans considering that Europe is supposed to be more left than America.

 

[Coriolanus]

Wait, aren't they basically talking about forming another lib dem party?

Seems like it would likely be another pro-austerity party. I really have no idea why Europe went balls deep into the Austerity craze and America only dipped the tip in thanks to some crazy republicans considering that Europe is supposed to be more left than America.

Because the US elected Obama, who had the good sense to follow his advisors.

Once you start cutting, well, backfire effect + sunken cost will carry you the rest of the way. Give it a bit of time, Overton window shifts too, and then you're well and truly fucked.

 

[pigeon]

sweet dreams, all

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-tory-mps-talk

This is good, right?

I literally can't tell. But it seems like the ground is clear for a pro-EU party. Although kind of harsh that nonody believes it can be the Lib Dems.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Sounds like a party for the bourgeoisie plutocratic elites in London. Not the regular English. If they love Europe so much they should move to Europe.

In seriousness I don't really know what the constituency would be. Wanting to be in the EU doesn't seem sufficient to bind a group of voters.

 

[Tyaren]

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought


18-24: 64%
25-39: 65%
40-54: 66%
55-64: 74%
65+: 90%

Wow...the fine English ladies and gentlemen over 65 sure went out of their way to stick it to the bloody foreigners. XD

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm considering taking a couple weeks and visiting London in September. Good time to visit for a bearded brown guy?

 

[MisterFalcon]

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought


18-24: 64%
25-39: 65%
40-54: 66%
55-64: 74%
65+: 90%

Combining this with the population numbers from the Home Office and the percentages from that 'bloody old people' table I get these numbers:

18-24: 64% of 5.878.472 = 3.762.222, 2.407.822 voting Remain
25-39: 65% of 12.901.695 = 8.386.101, 3.773.745 voting Remain
40-54: 66% of 13.495.446 = 8.906.994, 3.117.447 voting Remain
55-64: 74% of 7.452.381 = 5.514.761, 1.930.166 voting Remain
65+: 90% of 11.611.167 = 10.450.050, 3.448.516 voting Remain

This adds up to 14.677.696 Remain votes which is 1.5 million below the actual result.

 

[daviyoung]

I'm considering taking a couple weeks and visiting London in September. Good time to visit for a bearded brown guy?

yes, it's London

 

[phisheep]

This adds up to 14.677.696 Remain votes which is 1.5 million below the actual result.

In that case it is probably about right, as the Home Office population numbers almost certainly don't include the millions of voters resident overseas.

 

[Joni]

Are you in favor or not of compulsory voting?

Yes. It means every election is equally important.

That's of course if you're serious about your vote.....

And if you have enough time. The system is stacked against people working, having kids,.. Why is there a need to register for instance? My voting registration turns up automatically based on the tax data, elections are on Sunday so you don't have to work and it is easy to give a proxy. The UK system just like the US one is stacked against people that want to vote.

Well, that explains the sudden warming up of the relations between Putin and Erdogan.

That is up to the US to fix. The two most important parties to influence are the ones that are in their backpockets. It would be way more beneficial to continue project fear for the US if they were smart.

 

[Plasma]

Combining this with the population numbers from the Home Office and the percentages from that 'bloody old people' table I get these numbers:

18-24: 64% of 5.878.472 = 3.762.222, 2.407.822 voting Remain
25-39: 65% of 12.901.695 = 8.386.101, 3.773.745 voting Remain
40-54: 66% of 13.495.446 = 8.906.994, 3.117.447 voting Remain
55-64: 74% of 7.452.381 = 5.514.761, 1.930.166 voting Remain
65+: 90% of 11.611.167 = 10.450.050, 3.448.516 voting Remain

This adds up to 14.677.696 Remain votes which is 1.5 million below the actual result.

Thanks old people for completely fucking us over.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So this is sort of interesting.

It's not that there are a lot of immigrants in most of the places that voted leave.
The percentages are still small, for the most part.

It's that there were basically none there a decade or so ago.

 

[maquiladora]

NYT : After ‘Brexit’ Vote, Immigrants Feel a Town Turn Against Them

BOSTON, England — A few days after Britain voted to leave the European Union, Monika Baginski was in a supermarket, chatting with a friend on the phone in her native Polish, when a man followed her down the aisle. “You foreigner,” Ms. Baginski recalled him saying. “You’ll be out soon.”