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[Theonik]

Most election systems, including the Westminster one, are designed to fudge the result into making a parliamental majorities easier in the name of governability. The fact they are arbitrary and biased doesn't make your idea any better

The main advantage of constituencies is it encourages local politics. Constituencies choose from a small set of candidates that are supposed to have some relevance with them and the local populace can interact and become familiar with them.

Local MPs are meant to represent their voters and are accountable to them. Voters cannot be expected to recognise every MP running for every party but knowing local MPs is practical. This relationship is vital to ensure that every MP is directly elected by a constituency.

Mind other countries have proportional representation using multi-seat constituencies so it's not impossible. Greece works like this with 48 constituencies filling up 300 seats. (before a bonus 50 seats were awarded to the first party that was a newer reform which is quite controversial and is looking to be repealed only for parties to back down.)

 

[Linkstrikesback]

On a different note, discussing the matter elsewhere has had an interesting point raised, but I wanted to check around here to see what others who don't already assume its going to happen would think of it. Basically, one of the people I talk to thinks Britain and the pound might do well at least in terms of currency value in the long run because of... Gold. Specifically, the huge piles of it in the possession of the bank of England, due to the value of gold going up since the results came out. Their thinking was that people taking their money out of the pound and into other currencies will eventually devalue said currencies while the pound will recover, due to being propped up by the value of the gold.

Now my immediate side eye on this was that I'm fairly sure we disconnected the value of the pound from being tied to gold quite some time ago, and I'm not sure if that would be undone so quickly as to benefit from this. Are there any other issues in the idea, because I feel like there should be but I don't know enough about how the value of gold ties into currency to be so certain.

Thinking about that as an idea for a moment, it looks like the UK doesn't actually have that much gold anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve#Officially_reported_holdings

Even ignoring that we left the gold standard for a good reason. When we're probably going to go in to a recession because of the referendum, the absolute last thing you want is the government to be unable to print more money to ease the situation somewhat, which you can't do if you're relying on a stash of gold for the value of your currency.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

One thing I'm curious about is I see some posts saying that people who voted 'leave' don't like change. If they didn't like change wouldn't they have voted 'remain'?, especially as the majority of voters of any age would've spent not only the majority of their life (if not the entirety) in the EU but noticably the most recent majority of it, aka up to this present day, which means leaving would be 'change' rather than the status quo

The change has been fairly recent. Alot of these rural and seaside towns have only seen an uptick in immigration in the last 6 or 7 years, right as Austerity also hit.

 

[Pandy]

Yes there is. Spoilt ballots are counted separately from invalid ballots.

No, there isn't.

Spoiled ballots are counted, and a few people do use that as a 'protest' vote, but it has no bearing whatsoever to the result. That is not the same thing.

 

[Xun]

I doubt anything will change, but here's a couple of positive stories:

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-11/lawyers-claim-brexit-result-is-not-legally-binding/

https://next.ft.com/content/bea8ecf4-452a-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1

 

[Plasma]

I doubt anything will change, but here's a couple of positive stories:

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-11/lawyers-claim-brexit-result-is-not-legally-binding/

The letter, which they say should arrive later this week, proposes a way forward that "reconciles the legal, constitutional and political issues" triggered by the Brexit result.

A thousand lawyers sign this thing and they couldn't chip in to send it by next day delivery?

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah. Alot of the leavers I've met since (or discovered is the right word as I knew them already) don't really have many ideas of how to improve their station in life or even want to. That's not a slight, it's just the "entrepreneural spirit" were people are always scratch ng for the best deal, whether it be in career, relationships or any other aspect of their lifestyle is a bit alien to them.

Not only that, some of those people hate the whole thing entirely, thinking people should be greatful for their lot in life (religion is often involved *sign*)

They want things as they have always been and how they are used to. They can't be reasoned with by pointing out the opportunities that they have thrown away because these are opportunities they would have never attempted anyway.

Alot of this correlates with age, but the overall stubbornness to see things outside of how "they should be" regardless of historical accuracy transcends age, gender and even racial background.

It's literally the crabs in a bucket Mentality.

so the 'better in the good old days' group voted heavily for brexit. Presumably a lot of those were older voters, and 'in the good old days' were younger and less afraid of change,because they voted us into Europe in the first place.

So they're voting against their own self-inflicted good old days?

 

[twobear]

so the 'better in the good old days' group voted heavily for brexit. Presumably a lot of those were older voters, and 'in the good old days' were younger and less afraid of change,because they voted us into Europe in the first place.

So they're voting against their own self-inflicted good old days?

When older people talk about the 'good old days', I think they mean the 40s, 50s, and 60s, not the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

 

[pigeon]

A thousand lawyers sign this thing and they couldn't chip in to send it by next day delivery?

You try organizing a thousand lawyers to collectively chip in a total of ten pounds or so.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

so the 'better in the good old days' group voted heavily for brexit. Presumably a lot of those were older voters, and 'in the good old days' were younger and less afraid of change,because they voted us into Europe in the first place.

So they're voting against their own self-inflicted good old days?

Pretty much. Although alot what I'm hearing is that they voted for the single market, not what the EU became and ultimately will become, with or without the UK.

When older people talk about the 'good old days', I think they mean the 40s, 50s, and 60s, not the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Yep. The biggest irony of all this is many weren't even informed enough to know about anything outside their little bubbles back then. The world didn't exist outside the properganda machines on television, radio and the newspapers.

For some, even now, fuck all has changed.

 

[CyclopsRock]

so the 'better in the good old days' group voted heavily for brexit. Presumably a lot of those were older voters, and 'in the good old days' were younger and less afraid of change,because they voted us into Europe in the first place.

So they're voting against their own self-inflicted good old days?

For a lot of people, the good-old-days were only about a decade ago before the eastern expansion.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The white old days. Where everyone only spoke English.

 

[fabricated backlash]

When older people talk about the 'good old days', I think they mean the 40s, 50s, and 60s, not the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

When anyone talks about good old days, you'd be better served to ignore them as the idiots they are.

 

[cabot]

pound drops further, Nintendo shares highest since 80s.


This is all a fucking bizarro dream.

 

[Hasney]

pound drops further, Nintendo shares highest since 80s.


This is all a fucking bizarro dream.

It truly is back to the good old days. Time to play some fantastic NES movie tie in games.

 

[nelsonroyale]

sweet dreams, all

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-tory-mps-talk

Hmm, if the tories and labour broke...I quite like that.

 

[twobear]

Hmm, if the tories and labour broke...I quite like that.

So Labour MPs are quite literally more willing to compromise with the Tories than they are with their own membership. 😂

But it's rude and unfair to call them 'Tory-lite'. 😂

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

So Labour MPs are quite literally more willing to compromise with the Tories than they are with their own membership. 😂

But it's rude and unfair to call them 'Tory-lite'. 😂

This shit is fucking ridiculous.

They aren't compromising because they have a common platform.

They are compromising for the good of the entire country. Right, left and bloody in between.

Something that the party membership clearly don't understand right now.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Hmm, if the tories and labour broke...I quite like that.

Going to be really funny when UKIP win big at the next general election. The British people are really cleva they are not going to vote for some euro party that wants their children to be beheaded by muslims and is full of feminist atheists who don't support the death penalty.

 

[mrklaw]

The white old days. Where everyone only spoke English.

Which is funny considering how much of a mongrel breed we are.

I suppose most people ignore that and focus on those that look different. Again ignoring the large amounts of controlled immigration from the West Indies and Indian subcontinent to fill roles due to a shortage of local labour.

 

[Maledict]

So Labour MPs are quite literally more willing to compromise with the Tories than they are with their own membership. 😂

But it's rude and unfair to call them 'Tory-lite'. 😂

Labour Party membership is in complete denial about Corbyn and Europe, and his actions over it (and their statements since).

As a party member, I do feel right now that when it comes to the single biggest political issue facing us right now (Europe), I have more in common with Ken Clarke than I do Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[twobear]

This shit is fucking ridiculous.

They aren't compromising because they have a common platform.

They are compromising for the good of the entire country. Right, left and bloody in between.

Something that the party membership clearly don't understand right now.

They quite clearly are compromising because of a common platform though; a centrist party that believes we should remain in the EU.

And I like that the notion that compromising with the left of the party isn't 'compromising for the good of the entire country', as though the left doesn't REALLY believe that a leftist platform is good for the country. How could they? They obviously just believe in being contrarian for the sake of it.

 

[kmag]

They quite clearly are compromising because of a common platform though; a centrist party that believes we should remain in the EU.

And I like that the notion that compromising with the left of the party isn't 'compromising for the good of the entire country', as though the left doesn't REALLY believe that a leftist platform is good for the country. How could they? They obviously just believe in being contrarian for the sake of it.

Labour isn't really a party of the far left just as despite their best efforts in recent years, most Tories aren't really THAT far to the right, there's a broad swathe in both parties where there's common ground. Hardly surprising as most people in the country don't really swing too far to either side of the left/right spectrum.

It's a FPTP system, that almost always produces wide parties of differing views around a broad banner. It's literally consensus politics. It shouldn't be surprising that centre-left and centre-right parties would have a lot of potential overlap. Especially now that there's less social conservatism on either side.

If it was a PR system you could have successful ideological pure niche parties, but given game theory suggests that the overwhelming number of FPTP constituencies will devolve into two party contests. Those parties have to be ideologically broad to a certain degree. This is one of the reasons Corbyn is such a poor leader, as the EU referendum showed he's incapable of putting aside his own ideological positions to adopt the parties position with any degree of comfort or committment.

 

[dumbo]

And I like that the notion that compromising with the left of the party isn't 'compromising for the good of the entire country', as though the left doesn't REALLY believe that a leftist platform is good for the country. How could they? They obviously just believe in being contrarian for the sake of it.

The 'good of the nation' is to offer an alternative to the Tories. The 'far left' hasn't offered that since (at least) the 1970s.

 

[twobear]

Labour isn't really a party of the far left just as despite their best efforts in recent years, most Tories aren't really THAT far to the right, there's a broad swathe in both parties where there's common ground. Hardly surprising as most people in the country don't really swing too far to either side of the left/right spectrum.

It's a FPTP system, that almost always produces wide parties of differing views around a broad banner. It's literally consensus politics. It shouldn't be surprising that centre-left and centre-right parties would have a lot of potential overlap. Especially now that there's less social conservatism on either side.

I'm not surprised in the slightest that there's overlap between centre-left and centre-right. I just think it's funny that a group of people who think it's rude when people call them Tory-lite are now in negotiations with Tories to start a new party because Labour is too left-wing for them.

 

[SteveWD40]

Since 1997 we have had a center left and center right choice in govt, essentially choosing between which colour we prefer as the party's were interchangeable on most policy's.

The swing to the right / left on both sides is concerning, especially as I don't think they represent the people either way. It seems to me that the vast majority of the UK are centralist, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, tough on crime etc...

Problem seems to be mobilizing the center, you can't speak to emotions as they tend to leave them out of politics, where the left and right can move their base by speaking their language.

 

[twobear]

Since 1997 we have had a center left and center right choice in govt, essentially choosing between which colour we prefer as the party's were interchangeable on most policy's.

The swing to the right / left on both sides is concerning, especially as I don't think they represent the people either way. It seems to me that the vast majority of the UK are centralist, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, tough on crime etc...

Problem seems to be mobilizing the center, you can't speak to emotions as they tend to leave them out of politics, where the left and right can move their base by speaking their language.

I don't think the country is particularly socially liberal, at least not the majority.

 

[Graphics Horse]

There must be enough MPs against all this to form a new majority party, not that I think that would ever happen.

 

[SteveWD40]

I don't think the country is particularly socially liberal, at least not the majority.

Agree to disagree I guess, maybe I have rose tinted glasses on.

 

[twobear]

Agree to disagree I guess, maybe I have rose tinted glasses on.

I'm pretty sure that, for instance, the majority of the country supports reintroduction of the death penalty. The reason it never comes up is because of an informal moratorium on raising the issue in parliament, not because of a lack of support.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So, non-sequitur thought. Why are centre-left members considered Tory-lite, rather than centre-right members being considered Labour-lite?

The US has purity tests in play on both sides with the RINO's and closet Republican neoliberal oligarch Butcher of Benghazi.

 

[Azih]

I don't agree. AV was seen as a stepping stone to PR, everyone including the Lib Dems were pushing at such.

If anyone voted against AV in the hope it would lead to PR they seriously played themselves.

There is no place in the world where AV has been a stepping stone to PR. Voting systems aren't seen as a spectrum. If a change is seen as good it sticks. If it isn't the system is rolled back to the old one. In neither case does it lead to a third type.

 

[Theonik]

So, non-sequitur thought. Why are centre-left members considered Tory-lite, rather than centre-right members being considered Labour-lite?

The US has purity tests in play on both sides with the RINO's and closet Republican neoliberal oligarch Butcher of Benghazi.

Because after Thatcher it was the left that developed that criticism. Tories don't really have litmus paper tests. Also the 'not a true leftwing' mentality is more common in leftwing movements in general.

 

[Hazzuh]

So, non-sequitur thought. Why are centre-left members considered Tory-lite, rather than centre-right members being considered Labour-lite?

The US has purity tests in play on both sides with the RINO's and closet Republican neoliberal oligarch Butcher of Benghazi.

Try reading some the comment section in places like ConservativeHome lol, Cameron is a closet lefty to them. Lots of Tory voters loathe him for things like gay marriage etc. Leadsom's supporters are the mirror imagine of Corbyn supporters. Pretty literally in the sense that both think that everything has gotten worse in the last 30 years and now they want to turn back the clock.

Because after Thatcher it was the left that developed that criticism. Tories don't really have litmus paper tests. Also the 'not a true leftwing' mentality is more common in leftwing movements in general.

I don't think that's true anymore. I feel like British politics is fracturing along every fault line. There isn't really a "centre" you can appeal to without your base deserting you. Big tent parties like the Conservatives and Labour are in real trouble imo.

 

[twobear]

So, non-sequitur thought. Why are centre-left members considered Tory-lite, rather than centre-right members being considered Labour-lite?

The US has purity tests in play on both sides with the RINO's and closet Republican neoliberal oligarch Butcher of Benghazi.

Because the centre right now is far closer to traditional right-wing policies than to left-wing policies.

That said, I wonder if in Tory circles they are considered Labour-lite.

 

[twobear]

Also, a centrist party with support for the EU? Making one from scratch?

LibDems am cry.

 

[cabot]

May's speech seems to be more akin to a Labour candidate than a Tory one.


She remembers that it's the Tory party members that are deciding who leads, right?

 

[hodgy100]

Also, a centrist party with support for the EU? Making one from scratch?

LibDems am cry.

I guess there wouldnt be much reason for people from the lib dems to jump ship to that considering the libdems current reputation.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Also, a centrist party with support for the EU? Making one from scratch?

LibDems am cry.

I'm sure they would be welcome to join too!

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Also, a centrist party with support for the EU? Making one from scratch?

LibDems am cry.

As I have said prior, the Guardian left out the rather important point that a lot of these chats involve Paddy Ashdown, who is backed by Farron (who thinks the Lib Dems need a new start to fully break away from the past).

Ashdown was on LBC yesterday talking about it. The proposal for a centrist Remain policy platform should be announced in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Hasney]

May's speech seems to be more akin to a Labour candidate than a Tory one.


She remembers that it's the Tory party members that are deciding who leads, right?

She's talking like someone who actually knows what this country needs. Who is the Theresa May and what happened to the last one?

As I have said prior, the Guardian left out the rather important point that a lot of these chats involve Paddy Ashdown, who is backed by Farron (who thinks the Lib Dems need a new start to fully break away from the past).

Ashdown was on LBC yesterday talking about it. The proposal for a centrist Remain policy platform should be announced in the next couple of weeks.

Yup. If they can get it sorted and their ducks in a row along with the financial clout they need, they could be a gamechanger of a party.

 

[Hazzuh]

May just gave a speech that was, dare I say it... Labour-lite.

Right now, if you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home.

But, as I have said before, fighting these injustices is not enough. If you’re from a working-class family, life is just much harder than many people in politics realise. You have a job, but you don’t always have job security. You have your own home, but you worry about mortgage rates going up. You can just about manage, but you worry about the cost of living and the quality of the local school, because there’s no other choice for you.

I want to see changes in the way that big business is governed. The people who run big businesses are supposed to be accountable to outsiders, to non-executive directors, who are supposed to ask the difficult questions, think about the long-term and defend the interests of shareholders. In practice, they are drawn from the same, narrow social and professional circles as the executive team and - as we have seen time and time again - the scrutiny they provide is just not good enough.

So if I’m prime minister, we’re going to change that system - and we’re going to have not just consumers represented on company boards, but workers as well.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

So, non-sequitur thought. Why are centre-left members considered Tory-lite, rather than centre-right members being considered Labour-lite?

The US has purity tests in play on both sides with the RINO's and closet Republican neoliberal oligarch Butcher of Benghazi.

The EU referendum was the purity test. Backbenchers forced Cameron into this position to show that he was Tory enough to put his national party before the EU. The right wing of the Tory party got rid of Major like the centrist factions got rid of Thatcher. Difference is that Major won a GE and several Tory candidates after didn't until the centrist Cameron came along.

 

[JonathanEx]

She's the new Ed Miliband with that speech

 

[SteveWD40]

Theresa May is sounding like she is pitching for Labour votes.

General Election incoming next year...

 

[FlammableD]

But she still wants to toss the immigrants, right?

 

[phisheep]

She's talking like someone who actually knows what this country needs. Who is the Theresa May and what happened to the last one?

She was taken captive and held in the Home Office for way too long.

 

[Maledict]

This isn't new for her. She always been a weird mix of surprisingly liberal whilst also deeply anti-immigration.

 

[kmag]

Guido Fawkes saying Leadsom is quitting the Tory race at noon.

 

[Hazzuh]

WTF, people are saying on twitter that Leadsom might be quitting...