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[QuicheFontaine]

Are you seriously arguing semantics? While ignoring the rest of the post, no less?

Yeah, I just wanted to ask about the use of that word.

I was just using it that way to draw analogies with Cornwall or Newfoundland and so on, you're quite right the UK simply leaves rather secedes.

Cheers mate.

Edit:

Edit: not trying to stir shit or chase you out of the thread while wielding pitchforks. I'm seriously puzzled that you'd take issue with a phrase like that despite the entirety of the previous posts from Crab.

Don't worry about it! If I haven't been chased out by now, I'm probably not going to be

But yeah, it was a conversation between Crab and Arksy, I didn't feel the need to give my thoughts on all of the rest of that stuff really. Although I think it makes fairly interesting reading.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Accountability of those who presume to weild massive legislative power. Let's not forget that the state, as Hobbes says (and Bodin) before him, has a monopoly on violence. Therefore it matters dearly who these people are and what their powers are.

In simple terms; the accounability of the people who makes decisions to the people who must live with such decisions.

Okay, this hasn't actually explained what accountability is. You've used accountability in context, but you've not actually explained what you mean to me still.

What I want you to do is say something like "Accountability is _____________"; where the blank space doesn't contain a single usage of the word accountability or ideally identical synonyms.

Because of that, I don't really know why it matters. Do you mean "the ability by the people as a collective to decide who governs", "the ability of the people as a collective to decide who passes laws", some combination of the both? What counts as a decision in this context - is PR more or less accountable than FPTP? Where does the House of Lords come into accountability? I can't have any of this debate with you because I still don't have any real precise idea of what value you are trying to defend. It's just some vague buzzword to me at this point.

I would also say, yes the UK Parliament is far more democratically accountable to the UK than any functionary of the European Union. (Parliament, Commission, etc).

Why? This is an assertion. Also, surely the whole point is that the European Union should be accountable to EU citizens rather than the UK? In the same way that Parliament should be accountable to UK citizens rather than those living in London (which it sadly so often fails to do)? Additionally, if the UK Parliament has the capacity to overrule the EU on anything (which it does), how can the EU be "unaccountable" - we can hold it to account using our own Parliament!

Because it's a question of scale. [Sec editing]

I'll reply to the edit shortly then.

 

[Hazzuh]

Has this been posted and watched yet?

Brexit: Legal & Constitutional Requirements by UCL Laws

Thanks, just watched the first 15mins but it's been interesting thus far.

 

[Stuart444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36800536

Asked about the possibility of a second referendum on Scottish independence, Mrs May said Scottish people had sent a "very clear message" in 2014.

"Both the United Kingdom government and the Scottish government said they would abide by that," she added.

...

"Theresa May doesn't agree with Scotland being an independent country, I don't agree and two million people in Scotland who voted in our own referendum don't agree with that. So we're not going to be in agreement with that and we're not going to be in agreement with the idea that there should be another independence referendum."

In news that surprises no one, May on a second indy ref.

 

[Arksy]

God damn it, sec.

 

[inoperativ]

So May and Sturgeon seem to have got on well today. Prediction: TM will end up using risk of UK breaking up as a way to avoid triggering article 50 completely (or for negotiating a completely symbolic brexit). That way the SNP takes most of the blame from Leavers and gets most of the credit from Remainers, which allows both TM and Sturgeon to strengthen the position of their own parties in their respective countries.

 

[watershed]

I feel bad for the people of Scotland.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

So May and Sturgeon seem to have got on well today. Prediction: TM will end up using risk of UK breaking up as a way to avoid triggering article 50 completely (or for negotiating a completely symbolic brexit). That way the SNP takes most of the blame from Leavers and gets most of the credit from Remainers, which allows both TM and Sturgeon to strengthen the position of their own parties in their respective countries.

I don't think TM would have a Brexit and international trade minister if this was her plan.

 

[Paulie_C]

As an Irishman living in the North of Ireland, it's pretty galling to hear about some British people complain about lack of independence and lack of sovereignty.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I don't think TM would have a Brexit and international trade minister if this was her plan.

I'm inclined to agree. Using Scotland as an excuse would also create a pretty nasty political atmosphere in England which would bode even worse for the the Union in the long-run.

 

[Croyles]

As an Irishman living in the North of Ireland, it's pretty galling to hear about some British people complain about lack of independence and lack of sovereignty.

They want to be ones dishing out the lack of independence, duh! Glorious Empire of the good old days and all that!

 

[Zaph]

I don't think TM would have a Brexit and international trade minister if this was her plan.

I'm still not sure on what TM's intentions are either way, but I think regardless of whether she's going for a Brexit or not, she would still want to put Leaver's in those roles. It buys her time by showing the public she's not ignoring the vote.

 

[inoperativ]

I don't think TM would have a Brexit and international trade minister if this was her plan.

Both of whom are incompetent. To quote her:

"I won't be triggering article 50 until we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations."

Access to the single market and freedom of movement have already been declared red lines by Scotland (and are both completely reasonable requests).

I'm inclined to agree. Using Scotland as an excuse would also create a pretty nasty political atmosphere in England which would bode even worse for the the Union in the long-run.

Oh I agree, but the Tories have spent the last 2 years since the referendum creating tension since they know it's Labour who suffer the most from it. Putting party politics before the well-being of the country is kind of their trademark by now.

 

[PJV3]

Both of whom are incompetent. To quote her:

"I won't be triggering article 50 until we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations."

Access to the single market and freedom of movement have already been declared red lines by Scotland (and are both completely reasonable requests).



Oh I agree, but the Tories have spent the last 2 years since the referendum creating tension since they know it's Labour who suffer the most from it. Putting party politics before the well-being of the country is kind of their trademark by now.

Has federation been completely ruled out as a way round the Scotland problem?

I keep losing track of who has said what.

 

[Acorn]

Has federation been completely ruled out as a way round the Scotland problem?

I keep losing track of who has said what.

Still waiting on our "home rule".

Real answer - it's been mentioned by some papers and the lords but I don't think I've seen any govt response.

 

[inoperativ]

Has federation been completely ruled out as a way round the Scotland problem?

I think it would be the preferred solution for most people in Scotland -- if any kind of devo-max offer was on the ballot during the independence referendum it would have won easily -- and I really hope it will happen (I largely agree with this assessment of the situation) but I suspect the Tories will oppose it due to a combination of political opportunism and genuine affection for the current form of the union.

 

[Arksy]

Okay, this hasn't actually explained what accountability is. You've used accountability in context, but you've not actually explained what you mean to me still.

What I want you to do is say something like "Accountability is _____________"; where the blank space doesn't contain a single usage of the word accountability or ideally identical synonyms.

Because of that, I don't really know why it matters. Do you mean "the ability by the people as a collective to decide who governs", "the ability of the people as a collective to decide who passes laws", some combination of the both? What counts as a decision in this context - is PR more or less accountable than FPTP? Where does the House of Lords come into accountability? I can't have any of this debate with you because I still don't have any real precise idea of what value you are trying to defend. It's just some vague buzzword to me at this point.

That's because accountability does not exist in a vacuum, it exists alongside impartial arbitration, mechanisms to remove and install different decision makers, so on and so forth. If you want a definition of what I mean when I talk about accountability, it is the ability of people through democratic means to install, remove, and hold people responsible for their actions. The have one without the other would see the entire system weakened.

Why? This is an assertion. Also, surely the whole point is that the European Union should be accountable to EU citizens rather than the UK? In the same way that Parliament should be accountable to UK citizens rather than those living in London (which it sadly so often fails to do)? Additionally, if the UK Parliament has the capacity to overrule the EU on anything (which it does), how can the EU be "unaccountable" - we can hold it to account using our own Parliament!

Again, we can look at every system and point out the flaws of the system. "But! but! HoL!" people said to me, over and over again...and yes..the HoL is undemocratic and I don't think it should exist...but it does...HOWEVER....it doesn't weild all that much power, much like the Queen. It has power but the overwhelming bastion of power rests with the Commons.

To say that the EU is in my mind, has very problematic institutional frameworks, isn't to say that the UK is perfect, only that it is a tried and true system that works. At least somewhat, the Union being about to dissolve pending.

Also, to your other point, I can't remember the case name off the top of my head, but the case said something along the lines that until explicit legislation removed the power of the EU from UK law, EU law would prevail? Which, is what the UK is now in the process of doing...

 

[CTLance]

I feel bad for the people of Scotland.

At least they have properly working politicians. Whatever you might think of SNP and such, it's undeniable that the Scots had a leader out front and center practically instantaneously after the referendum results were broadcast. While Labour, UKIP and the Tories were busy self destructing and (partially) resurrecting from the ashes, she outlined how she intended to proceed, got a proper mandate for her plan from her parliament and put that plan into action - in short, displayed what is commonly called leadership, for better or worse.

Meanwhile my country had politicians hellbent on reinforcing the image of a "elite three" led Europe by attending crisis meetings with only a tiny subset of all EU leaders (and later generously offering to phone some other EU countries to relay the decisions). At least that's how one could interpret how Germany acted right after the shit hit the fan. Heh.

 

[kmag]

Still waiting on our "home rule".

Real answer - it's been mentioned by some papers and the lords but I don't think I've seen any govt response.

I think some Tory think tank dusted the notion off a couple of weeks back. I don't think it's a flyer because a most federal systems have a method of mitigating the dominance of larger constituent states, the English would never put up with that.

 

[PJV3]

Still waiting on our "home rule".

Real answer - it's been mentioned by some papers and the lords but I don't think I've seen any govt response.

I think it would be the preferred solution for most people in Scotland -- if any kind of devo-max offer was on the ballot during the independence referendum it would have won easily -- and I really hope it will happen (I largely agree with this assessment of the situation) but I suspect the Tories will oppose it due to a combination of political opportunism and genuine affection for the current form of the union.

Cheers, I'm half hoping for M25 land as a way of staying in myself and the country keeping the cash from the city. So it not being completely off the table is a slim hope still alive.


Hope Scotland gets what it wants.

 

[shinra-bansho]

As someone who was born in one country, raised in another, and probably will be moving to another. I can see how restraints on power through the use of things like elections, indepdent judiciaries and due process have allowed people and societies in those countries to flourish....and therefore think protecting the institutions which place such high restrictions on power have utmost importance.

I'm sorry, but what exactly does that have to do with nationalism and jingoistic appeals to "sovereignty". When exactly did the UK cede its independent judiciary and elections and due process? Was it some time during the process where the UK lost its country and thus had to take it back, and make Britain for the British again.

 

[kharma45]

As an Irishman living in the North of Ireland, it's pretty galling to hear about some British people complain about lack of independence and lack of sovereignty.

Why, Donegal suddenly joined Northern Ireland?

 

[Arksy]

I'm sorry, but what exactly does that have to do with nationalism and jingoistic appeals to "sovereignty". When exactly did the UK cede its independent judiciary and elections and due process? Was it some time during the process where the UK lost its country and thus had to take it back, and make Britain for the British again.

I'm confused..I was merely trying to say that I don't think it's problematic to have great pride in national institutions and be very protective of them. I think it's problematic if you do it to the exception of everything else, but that's not what I was saying.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'm confused as to when this:

Was about reverence for due process.

 

[dalyr95]

You're forgetting the bit where the EU itself is a massive trade organisation (one to which we sell most of our exports) with an amazingly liberal services trade agreement especially in terms of financial services which is our biggest trade sector. Also that list is missing Turkey.

Wrong.

However, the stronger export growth to non-EU countries has resulted in the proportion of UK exports destined for the EU falling from 54.8% in 1999 to 44.6% in 2014

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html

 

[Arksy]

Not really sure what you want me to say...I can't speak for Nigel Farage and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that some voters weren't motivated by race.

I can only give you my own reasons and justifications. There is nothing defensible about that poster, I can assure you that being born in Turkey, to mixed Turkish Jewish parents who then migrated to Australia before the age of 1, there were elements I found incredibly distasteful.

 

[Clear]

So May and Sturgeon seem to have got on well today. Prediction: TM will end up using risk of UK breaking up as a way to avoid triggering article 50 completely (or for negotiating a completely symbolic brexit). That way the SNP takes most of the blame from Leavers and gets most of the credit from Remainers, which allows both TM and Sturgeon to strengthen the position of their own parties in their respective countries.

Very possibly.

But then again I can't see TM putting Boris into the Foreign secretary position as anything other than a stalling tactic. He's certainly not the politician you'd put in place if there was a serious intent of getting anything done.

 

[kmag]

Wrong.


http://webarchive.nationalarchives....union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html

Sorry let me reword that. The trade organisation through which we sell most if not all of our goods.

What your doing is splitting out the EU and lumping the rest of the world together. That's not how it works. Put this way that 44.6% is under the auspices of the one trade deal we've decided to exit from, a decent proportion of the rest is under other separate trade deals we've just also decided to exit from as they're EU deals we'll no longer be party to. The rest of our exports are under WTO rules, which we may have inadvertently decided to exit as there's a lot of debate that we may actually have to negotiate for WTO coverage in certain areas such as farm subsidies see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36470809.

 

[Bold One]

That's some excellent discourse you have there.

- London is one of only two Alpha ++ rated cities in the world (NYC is the other)
- The UK is the 5th (or 6th) largest economy in the world
- The UK is the 2nd largest contributor of aid in the world
- The UK is one of only nine nuclear powers
- The UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council
- The UK has the 2nd largest diplomatic network in the world

so what youre saying is that

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The point of accountability is that everyone benefits. If people can see how people make those decisions, and on what basis they make those decisions...there's a likelihood (not absolute) of course, that better decisions will be made. A simplistic example would be body cameras on police...in most of the places these have been tried, police complaints have gone down dramatically. I can fully accept that as I said, you value economic outcomes as being your most important priorities.

right, but the EU Parliament is not closed from public view. I can see how people make these decisions and explain pretty well how the seven EU institutions work, and I can see why they came to those decisions equally as well as I can see how the UK's institutions come to theirs.

And no, I value democratic outcomes far above economic ones. I'm just pointing that the EU in no way infringed upon the UK democratic process. It enhanced it.

To answer your question, why should the UK leave the EU and Cornwall not the UK...because the democratic systems in place in the UK are far better than the democratic systems that operate at the EU level.

Again, this is an assertion. For example, given that elections to the EU Parliament use PR, the resulting composition of the EU parliament is roughly reflective of the desires of EU citizens. Elections to the UK Parliament, using FPTP, are not at all reflective. UKIP in 2015 got 12.7% of the vote, and got slightly less than 0.2% of the seats for example. In 2005, Tony Blair got just over 35% of the votes and well over 50% of the seats.

This doesn't look very democratic or accountable to me.

Firstly the UK is smaller than the EU, and therefore it would be easier for Cornwall to petition the UK for problems than it would be to petition the EU which has 500 million people to look over.

The UK represented 64 million of the 510 million EU citizens, or roughly 12.5%. Cornwall represents 532 thousand of 64,000 thousand UK citizens, or roughly 0.8% of the UK. Remind me again why the UK will be more responsive to Cornwall than the EU would be to the UK?

Not to mention the ultimate end-point of your logic is that everyone should secede from everything, because if I was the tiny little Independent Republic of Crab, population 1, I would represent 100% of my own electorate and therefore be absolutely accountable. This is obviously barmy, so your argument must have constraints somewhere. What are these constraints and where do they come in?

Secondly the UK Parliament has far more power than the EU Parliament (after all it's sovereign!), meaning that they could far easier effect change.

But this is only important if the changes we can affect by leaving the EU are ones we want, yes? I mean, there's no point in being able to affect changes we don't want, that would be silly - after all, we don't want them. So hasn't your argument reached the point where you have to stop talking about accountability and start talking about what the UK can or can't do as a member or not a member of the EU, like what sort of economic outcomes we can accomplish?

 

[Jisgsaw]

it doesn't weild all that much power, much like the Queen.

Euhm, doesn't the Queen have the power to dismiss any minister (including the prime minister), to declare war and things like that?
She doesn't use that, but I'd argue that is massive power that she posses in theory.

 

[Acorn]

Euhm, doesn't the Queen have the power to dismiss any minister (including the prime minister), to declare war and things like that?
She doesn't use that, but I'd argue that is massive power that she posses in theory.

Yes but the second she did anything we'd be a Republic.

 

[PJV3]

Yes but the second she did anything we'd be a Republic.

I really wouldn't put money on that anymore.

 

[StayDead]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36800536



In news that surprises no one, May on a second indy ref.

Our governments opinions on referendums are so stupid.

Especially when the voting demographic changes every week as more people hit voting age and more die.

 

[avaya]

The number of broker meetings where people have tried selling us the idea of UK will get single market access and the passport because the EU will play ball has been increasing lately. When asked why the EU will play ball on the 4 freedoms, it's always because *reasons*. Not really credible.

I think there is a fair amount of denial in the market right now. There's still a fair 30% who keep saying we are not leaving, it will be rolled back.

 

[norinrad]

Yes but the second she did anything we'd be a Republic.

Hahaha people would rather have the Queen than a Parliament. Don't be fooled thinking there are some Republicans who are going to have a massive backing from the people.

I always laugh when I'm in countries with a monarchy and people go oh I'm a Republican lol

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

The number of broker meetings where people have tried selling us the idea of UK will get single market access and the passport because the EU will play ball has been increasing lately. When asked why the EU will play ball on the 4 freedoms, it's always because *reasons*. Not really credible.

I think there is a fair amount of denial in the market right now. There's still a fair 30% who keep saying we are not leaving, it will be rolled back.

Oh the denail is very much real, from ythe average voter to the market. I was willing to believe Brexit could be blocked, but with May in power and the statements that followed her ascension, I doubt that's on the cards now.

 

[Acorn]

Hahaha people would rather have the Queen than a Parliament. Don't be fooled thinking there are some Republicans who are going to have a massive backing from the people.

I always laugh when I'm in countries with a monarchy and people go oh I'm a Republican lol

What?

I'm not expecting the queen to be dethroned but if she did intervene in politics that probability would sky rocket amongst the public. She learned that lesson years ago.

 

[tomtom94]

The only chance of us not leaving the EU - eventually, anyway - is if both Davis and Fox end up in a scandal and forced to resign.

 

[PJV3]

Oh the denail is very much real, from ythe average voter to the market. I was willing to believe Brexit could be blocked, but with May in power and the statements that followed her ascension, I doubt that's on the cards now.

We just need to know what kind of exit we are in for, it's very vague still.
After the meeting with Sturgeon- May sounded open to options but that could just be bullshit.

I think she might let Davis try hardball and then sacrifice him if it goes pear shaped.

 

[Zips]

Can't seem to find it now, but I saw an article yesterday about how Canada should be looking to take advantage of Brexit and try to attract the UK's best and brightest as they abandon ship.

It's interesting to see so much open talk of how countries are/are going to be looking to pick apart the UK. The vultures are circling...

 

[avaya]

We are fairly certain the EU as a whole will not move on the four freedoms. Forgetting the fact that for an efficient single market they are necessary, it is existential for the project that we get nothing better than Norway.

We are also fairly certain the passport will be extracted at some form of large financial cost and the City will lobby the government to guarantee it. This could be coupled with further demands to adhere to stricter forms of EU regulation regarding FS, deregulation and the social chapter in order to stop the UK deregulating itself further in a race to the bottom.

How this is all explained to the commons is another matter but it can be done.

 

[PJV3]

Can't seem to find it now, but I saw an article yesterday about how Canada should be looking to take advantage of Brexit and try to attract the UK's best and brightest as they abandon ship.

It's interesting to see so much open talk of how countries are/are going to be looking to pick apart the UK. The vultures are circling...

Too be honest it's the right thing to do, the UK can't expect people to wait around for x amount of years while they rebuild international links in science etc.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Can't seem to find it now, but I saw an article yesterday about how Canada should be looking to take advantage of Brexit and try to attract the UK's best and brightest as they abandon ship.

It's interesting to see so much open talk of how countries are/are going to be looking to pick apart the UK. The vultures are circling...

not surprised, the brain drain on graduates and young professionals out of the UK in the next few years will be staggering

 

[Zips]

Too be honest it's the right thing to do, the UK can't expect people to wait around for x amount of years while they rebuild international links in science etc.

Oh absolutely. I just can't think of another time where I've seen so much open discussion of countries essentially looking to ransack a sinking ship. It seems pretty unanimous, outside the UK anyway, that Brexit is a very bad move.

 

[PJV3]

Oh absolutely. I just can't think of another time where I've seen so much open discussion of countries essentially looking to ransack a sinking ship. It seems pretty unanimous, outside the UK anyway, that Brexit is a very bad move.

It could be avoided in the divorce talks if the UK committed itself to that stuff financially, but it looks like Davis is more interested in threatening the French cheese industry to get trade on our terms. Maybe that's unfair but I don't see him talking about the cooperation and collaborative stuff much.

 

[avaya]

Oh absolutely. I just can't think of another time where I've seen so much open discussion of countries essentially looking to ransack a sinking ship. It seems pretty unanimous, outside the UK anyway, that Brexit is a very bad move.

When was the last time a developed country inflicted such damage upon in itself in peace time?

It's a unique situation. They all, categorically, all of them, told us not to do it, it won't end up well for you.....

 

[Zips]

When was the last time a developed country inflicted such damage upon in itself in peace time?

It's a unique situation. They all, categorically, all of them, told us not to do it, it won't end up well for you.....

Seems very unique, yes.

Anyway - for any of UK Gaf wanting to leave: Come on over to Canada! We seem to be in a fresh new period of not-terrible governance now, so it'd be a refreshing change.

 

[Bleepey]

Seems very unique, yes.

Anyway - for any of UK Gaf wanting to leave: Come on over to Canada! We seem to be in a fresh new period of not-terrible governance now, so it'd be a refreshing change.

How easy is it to find work for people with a masters in public health.

 

[Camp Freddie]

Hahaha people would rather have the Queen than a Parliament. Don't be fooled thinking there are some Republicans who are going to have a massive backing from the people.

I always laugh when I'm in countries with a monarchy and people go oh I'm a Republican lol

Here's the deal Liz. Refuse to leave the EU and we promise not to chop your head off. We'll even let you appoint Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson as the Groom of the Royal Stool.

In unrelated news, this is brilliant:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/13/there...t-as-he-starts-new-life-as-first-man-6005294/