What has EU to do with this? EU asked UK to get with it already. UK government is the one that has to make this decision.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
- Start date
- Status
What has EU to do with this? EU asked UK to get with it already. UK government is the one that has to make this decision.
I just had a forward-flash to the next big far-Right campaign issue now the EU matter is off the table...
Halph n Halph
Member
I voted remain also. Im just wondering what the reaction would be if remain had won 52/48 and yet the government went ahead and left anyway.
Truth hurts.
RedSparrows
Member
I suspect the EU will still be on the cards in 2020. At the least, it'll still be blamed for everything people don't like.
The problem is, no Leave voter knows exactly what they've voted for. Not because they're too stupid, but because it wasn't really clear beforehand what "leaving" exactly encompassed. Hell, it still isn't any more clear than it was before the vote.
This is why I have a problem with the argument of "respecting the vote". What outcome exactly would do this? The UK becoming an EEA member? Maximum Brexit? I mean, the former would probably go against what many Leave voters wanted out of the referendum, wouldn't it?
Well there is education inequality as well as an income one. But overall it's not because they are stupid really, it's because information wasn't presented in a unbias and accurate way. The thing that worries me more about brexit isn't that we voted to leave the EU it's that we voted to leave the EU under false pretenses.
and as the above says a result that accurately represents the vote isn't a complete divorce from the EU, you still need to respect the opinion of the 48%. these things aren't black and white
If something is going to be so detrimental to the economy and people's literal lives, while providing no material gain, and based upon a campaign of obvious lies which nobody is being held accountable for, then yeah, I don't give two fucks if an advisory referendum is ignored. We don't live in a direct democracy, and well shit, even a country which is a direct democracy ignored their referendum on immigration control because they knew it would destroy the country.
Being unable to think critically and accepting biased information that has blindingly obviously been represented in a misleading way is the definition of thick. Leave voters are not kids, they need to take responsibility. Just like in the referendum they are willing to blame their fuck ups on others.
TatteredHat
Member
The only thing stupid here at this point is the leavers not seeing that they were lied to and continuing to tow the line for a movement that had no intention of winning the referendum to begin with.
You shouldn't feel stupid for being lied to, you should feel stupid for being told you've been lied to and continuing to side with the liars.
this is why foreign affair referendums are unconstitutional in Italy and cannot happen.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
And at the very bottom of the Democracy pile is Direct Democracy.
There's a reason we have a representative democracy and the population don't just all get to vote on every issue, and that is that it is almost impossible for the average person to be well informed on every important issue at hand.
In the case of the EU Referendum people were in fact directly misinformed, and I continue to expect it's result to never be honoured.
And at the very bottom of the Democracy pile is Direct Democracy.
There's a reason we have a representative democracy and the population don't just all get to vote on every issue, and that is that it is almost impossible for the average person to be well informed on every important issue at hand.
In the case of the EU Referendum people were in fact directly misinformed, and I continue to expect it's result to never be honoured.
Because of the constant delay of article 50 ever being trigged, the weaker the argument that 'it is the will of the people' becomes. We're a fickle country and our opinion on 23rd June 2016 might not be the same come 23rd June 2017. You only have to see the opinions of reality TV to know how quickly we can turn.
Now it's just being left to stew in its own juices and doing no one any favours.
Now it's just being left to stew in its own juices and doing no one any favours.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Switzerland's system lends itself to idiocracy at times because of legally binding referendums. Dragging almost half the country out of the EU and having a clean break with no free movement, single market, etc. when a significant amount of people want it is not a good thing for social cohesion. The Leave position of 'NO COMPROMISE EVER, DEMOCRACY' is getting tiring. The most democratic option is Brexit-lite, clearly. And let us never host a constitutional referendum on a simple majority ever again.
My dad supports Brexit and Donald Trump even though he's Chinese and an immigrant who isn't even a citizen, I dunno what to think of him anymore.
My dad supports Brexit and Donald Trump even though he's Chinese and an immigrant who isn't even a citizen, I dunno what to think of him anymore.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
https://insidegovuk.blog.gov.uk/2016/07/20/changes-to-the-style-guide-no-more-eg-and-ie-etc/
Begone, immigrant words!
Begone, immigrant words!
I see this in myself tbh. I was super "Brexit means Brexit" myself after the referendum but now after some time has passed and the world needs unity more than ever I really hope Brexit can be prevented after all.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Nigel Farage spoke at the Republican National Congress in the US recently.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/756802493846171648
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/756802493846171648
Yeah, it's not an unheard of phenomenon. I grew up in an area with a large Indian demographic and was speaking to a friend who's parents (Indian immigrants themselves) and family voted Leave. I asked him why, because the general assumption is immigrants/minorities would vote Remain, and he described a train of thought which was equal parts fascinating and ridiculous.
The gist of it was, due to India's well known caste system and strong elitism - something being thought of as exclusive is very appealing. Therefore, with less immigration the UK is a more exclusive country and their 'standing' as British Citizens becomes more highly regarded, and they think it'll then be easier for their family back in India to also join this elite member's club.
Not at all saying this is a prevalent attitude with British Indians, but just an anecdotal perspective I thought I'd share.
Christ that's gonna be UKIP's next push isn't it. And it'd happen cause this country is full of jaded morons.
It should never have been a referendum allowing such a tiny majority. It should have been a resounding majority and nothing less - if 70% had voted Brexit then fine, shit the bed.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
A slight majority would support capital punishment if there was a referendum on it based on poll data.
But you're insulting all those people!
Why? Because they prove you wrong? And inter-racial marriage laws are not a "hypothetical".
Wow, people sure hate the idea that blind people may want to use a website.
how do hypothetical questions prove anything? think about it
I've seen some stupid shit on this forum.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
There are numerous examples in history of both our country and others where direct democracy was absolutely the wrong thing. Where it was overruled either by the courts or by parliament. And yet here you are pretending that didn't happen and proclaiming a direct vote as the most sacred, unbreakable and righteous thing ever.
Either you accept that a direct vote, and majority opinions, are not necessarily the right thing or you are happy with legalised slavery, bans on homosexuality and gay marriage, and the death penalty.
Which is it?
Because such a simple concept can expose flaws in reasoning.
Why are you striving so hard to avoid the meat of the issue? What is it about these:
that are so inapplicable to the real world that they can't be used to show how dumb the idea that you can't say "x million are are too stupid and voted wrong" is? Are you that intellectually stunted you can't see the reasoning behind it?
And why did you so obviously ignore the real-world example he posted?
May visits N.Ireland and claims there are no plans to enact a border between North and South.
All well and good until she said the opposite would happen just last month. This also without taking into consideration what the Republic or the EU wants. Or that the leading political party of N.Ireland, the DUP, wants a border.
I thought Brexit means Brexit, you can't pick and choose what you want best. In short, nobody has a scooby what's going on.
All well and good until she said the opposite would happen just last month. This also without taking into consideration what the Republic or the EU wants. Or that the leading political party of N.Ireland, the DUP, wants a border.
I thought Brexit means Brexit, you can't pick and choose what you want best. In short, nobody has a scooby what's going on.
She made the distinction between a hard border and a border. I reckon it would return to the customs border which was in place between 56 and 93, of course that's only if the EU doesn't make Ireland firm up it's perimeter border (although since Ireland isn't schengen country at the moment I don't think that's possible).
Even if the UK went into the EEA there would still need to be a customs border. EEA countries aren't part of the customs union. But the Norway/Swedish border has the same restrictions and in practice all it means is some very occasional customs stops.
PdotMichael
Banned
second topic of political science 101.
The differences between imperative mandate and free mandate. It's shocking how people want that imperative mandate.
The differences between imperative mandate and free mandate. It's shocking how people want that imperative mandate.
Well a Norway deal EEA deal (plus passporting) would technically leave the EU while retaining free trade. The only downside (from some points of view) would be free movement - but then that was never voted for, it's simply being regurgitated constantly by brexiters
This is the UK we are talking about. They will be back to fuck with the mainland sooner or later. That will probably never change. lol
Halph n Halph
Member
Quite possibly, but why would the EU give us the services passport without a fight?
Also I cannot see the hardline leave mp's settling for no controls on EU migration at all.
Maybe a rebalanced economy slightly less reliant on the city may not be a bad thing in the long term.
Theonik
Member
Any government at any point may choose to leave the European Union. Some people would be very annoyed if this happened. I wouldn't equate the two scenarios though because staying in the EU is not a permanent decision whereas leaving is. The simple fact that making this decision binds future governments alone should require a stronger margin if your goal was to justify such a decision.
What's worse is people knowing they are lied to, having pretty much changed their minds but willing to not admit to the fact fearing of being told 'I told you so'. Utter bone-headedness.
frontieruk
Member
I notice that the results were worse in the age range that could of actually voted... Those figures make me ashamed of our education system
UcchedavÄda
Member
Just because something is put up for democratic vote, it does not follow that all options are equally morally and / or intellectually justified. There has been countless examples where that was not the case, including historical cases such as those already listed, and including for example California's Proposition 8 in 2008, which was eventually struck down by a federal court.
And you certainly can't escape moral and intellectual culpability for the choices you make simply by appealing to the number of people who've made the same choice as you did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoLnDabNHI
So the people who voted out of Europe because they felt they weren't being listened to, will be ignored by Westminster MPS too, using the referendum results to push their own right wing agendas. Perfect
It's not like people listen either, seeing who was voted in the GE. So, it's a nice political dialogue between deaf people.
Pretty much expected. Everybody wants to first see the deck before betting. The worse the EU deal is, the bigger the leverage for the others.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Anger. But no riots, one would presume.
We're at the point where the PM is going around Europe making soothing cooing noises while saying absolutely nothing.
I mean
Is completely content free. Just like her previous speeches with Merkel and Holland.
Meanwhile we have Liam Fox saying it'll all be sorted by 2020, and we won't be in a customs union with the EU. No shit Sherlock, the custom union isn't even applicable to EEA members, and what's termed a customs union with Turkey is actually a pretty limited agreement applying to goods only, with country of origin rules and checks, no agriculture, services and the exclusion of coal and steel. Only EU members are in the EU customs union.
Farron talking a lot of sense on the subject:
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/26/tim-farron-theresa-may-did-nothing-to-prevent-brexit
With Labour currently going full socialist, if left-leaning folk could pay more attention to the Lib Dems, that would be fantastic.
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/26/tim-farron-theresa-may-did-nothing-to-prevent-brexit
With Labour currently going full socialist, if left-leaning folk could pay more attention to the Lib Dems, that would be fantastic.
But isn't that the fundamental problem - we can't really give people an accurate look at the complete Brexit deal without first going through with it? The US trade guy basically said they need to see the UK's European standing before working on a deal. It's a fantasy to assume we can check if the grass is greener without first making the journey.
To further Blair's house analogy - we have to first set fire to our existing home before looking around the new one.
So yeah, a new referendum with "accept this deal" or "remain in the eu" sounds great, but is completely unrealistic because the Brexiters will point out the deal isn't the full picture (and for once, they won't be lying).
To further Blair's house analogy - we have to first set fire to our existing home before looking around the new one.
So yeah, a new referendum with "accept this deal" or "remain in the eu" sounds great, but is completely unrealistic because the Brexiters will point out the deal isn't the full picture (and for once, they won't be lying).
Whilst undeniable, is this still not an improvement over the previous referendum? It'll allow for a tad more nuance if the options are something like:
- Accept deal we've hammered out so far (eg. EEA with free movement of people intact)
- Reject deal and go for 'hard Brexit' with no single market access
- Remain in EU
Yes, we still won't have the full picture, but we didn't even have a rudimentary sketch to go by for the last referendum.
Keep in mind that this was *before* Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...eece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...eece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd
As I said upthread. If you're out the EU, you're out the Customs Union. EEA countries are out the customs union, as is Turkey (it's customs union is really nothing of the sort, as there are state of origin rules and only goods are covered by freedom of movement, it does however apply the common external tariff)
There are upsides and negatives of being in a custom union. Downsides, your ability to broker external trade deals is greatly impinged (it's basically gone), upside your goods don't have pay custom fees and have to satisfy origin standards to sell into the single market.
Custom barriers aren't insurmountable but it puts UK companies at a competitive disadvantage when they try to sell into the EU. It'll also put the supply chain under pressure, as it makes JIT very difficult not to mention more costly.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked