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[anonymous_abc]

Whilst undeniable, is this still not an improvement over the previous referendum? It'll allow for a tad more nuance if the options are something like:

- Accept deal we've hammered out so far (eg. EEA with free movement of people intact)
- Reject deal and go for 'hard Brexit' with no single market access
- Remain in EU

Yes, we still won't have the full picture, but we didn't even have a rudimentary sketch to go by for the last referendum.

I really don't see how this could lead to an improvement of voter behaviour.
They didn't think to read up on the subject on a simple in/out referendum, now you want to get them to understand the far more complicated intricacies of EEA, EU and 'hard Brexit'?

 

[Toytown Assassin]

Whilst undeniable, is this still not an improvement over the previous referendum? It'll allow for a tad more nuance if the options are something like:

- Accept deal we've hammered out so far (eg. EEA with free movement of people intact)
- Reject deal and go for 'hard Brexit' with no single market access
- Remain in EU

Yes, we still won't have the full picture, but we didn't even have a rudimentary sketch to go by for the last referendum.

I can see why remainers would love a 3 way vote that splits the leave vote in 2 and allows remain to win with less than 1/2 of the votes but you wont be getting that. Well maybe if the lib dems/smith lab somehow win power and want to rig the vote I guess it could happen but that seems somewhat unlikely at this point for all sorts of reasons.

 

[accel]

I can see why remainers would love a 3 way vote that splits the leave vote in 2 and allows remain to win with less than 1/2 of the votes but you wont be getting that. Well maybe if the lib dems/smith lab somehow win power and want to rig the vote I guess it could happen but that seems somewhat unlikely at this point for all sorts of reasons.

A simple way to understand the agenda of those who propose a new referendum: suggest to remove the "Remain in EU" option on the basis that that particular choice has already been made. They immediately lose interest.

 

[War Peaceman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqSGgXb9Ngg

God the leave campaign were all cunts. They lied about their £350m and they don't give a fuck.

When they talk about Jo Cox's death... yikes.

 

[Maledict]

I can see why remainers would love a 3 way vote that splits the leave vote in 2 and allows remain to win with less than 1/2 of the votes but you wont be getting that. Well maybe if the lib dems/smith lab somehow win power and want to rig the vote I guess it could happen but that seems somewhat unlikely at this point for all sorts of reasons.

I love how it's an unstoppable democratic mandate when you ask people to chose between two things, but when you ask them to chose between 3 it's a travesty of democracy and rigging the vote.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

I love how it's an unstoppable democratic mandate when you ask people to chose between two things, but when you ask them to chose between 3 it's a travesty of democracy and rigging the vote.

Ok how many versions of leave would it take on a ballot for you to accept that it was rigging it in favor of remain? 3? 4 maybe? As blackcrane says remain has already been rejected so shouldn't even be an option in the 1st place.

Another vote should be a binary choice between whatever deal they come up with and full out with no deal and if other parties want to take us back in they can campaign on that and hold their own vote if they win or just rejoin with no vote if they have the courage to put that policy to the public and win on it.

 

[Meadows]

Good news about GsK and the GDP figures from Q2!

 

[Toytown Assassin]

Q3 and Q4 will be the interesting ones.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Good news about GsK and the GDP figures from Q2!

Some dead cat! Some bounce!

 

[Halph n Halph]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

I still expect a contraction short term, but this is good news nonetheless.

 

[RedSparrows]

Good. Bearing in mind it's business as normal, good.

 

[KingSnake]

Everything is going beyond great in UK, you should trigger Article 50 faster to be even better.

 

[Meadows]

The 100 isn't the best indicator, too many mining companies that aren't representative of the UK economy. The 250 is better, and has done similarly well since the ref.

 

[CadetMahoney]

In the case of the EU Referendum people were in fact directly misinformed, and I continue to expect it's result to never be honoured.

Does this mean Article 50 won't be triggered?

Or it will be triggered but nothing will happen about "stopping immigration". So you end up with lots of negatives and the whole point of leaving won't happen lol.

 

[Rodelero]

Ok how many versions of leave would it take on a ballot for you to accept that it was rigging it in favor of remain? 3? 4 maybe? As blackcrane says remain has already been rejected so shouldn't even be an option in the 1st place.

Another vote should be a binary choice between whatever deal they come up with and full out with no deal and if other parties want to take us back in they can campaign on that and hold their own vote if they win or just rejoin with no vote if they have the courage to put that policy to the public and win on it.

At least you're making it painfully obvious that you don't respect direct democracy any more than anyone else. You're yet another person who respects direct democracy when it agrees with your agenda and wants to suppress it whenever you fear it won't.

To say Remain has been 'rejected' is completely laughable. A small majority voted to Leave, a pie in the sky plan which had no substance, based on lies, supported by a general background of xenophobia and racism, against the status quo. Before you start saying that it isn't a small majority, consider this. If you take a random twenty people, the chance is that ten people voted to Remain, and ten people voted to Leave.

It would be absolutely outrageous to come out with another choice which didn't allow people to vote for the Status Quo when it was the original choice of just under half the country, and the vote of the vast majority of experts, economists and politicians.

Direct democracy is stupid, but you know what's infinitely more stupid? Having a second round of direct democracy where around half the country's choice won't be on the ballot paper to begin with. Don't worry though, we get it. You know perfectly well that in a referendum between Remain and a concrete Leave plan, Remain would almost certainly win. The only reason Leave won to begin with is Leave voters all projected what they wanted onto it. Some want to get rid of the EU immigrants, some want to take back our sovereignty (!!), some want to see £350m per week go to the NHS, etc, etc. Very few of them agree on anything and many of these ideas simply can't coincide. Put Remain on a ballot against a Norway style deal and Full Brexit, and you'll see that Remain wins comfortably.

Rejected? Only verses a fantasy.

 

[Maledict]

Ok how many versions of leave would it take on a ballot for you to accept that it was rigging it in favor of remain? 3? 4 maybe? As blackcrane says remain has already been rejected so shouldn't even be an option in the 1st place.

Another vote should be a binary choice between whatever deal they come up with and full out with no deal and if other parties want to take us back in they can campaign on that and hold their own vote if they win or just rejoin with no vote if they have the courage to put that policy to the public and win on it.

Remain was rejected in July 2016. By the time we even have an idea of what an exit will look like and concluded treaty negotiations remain would win a referendum purely on demographic change.

I don't think it's a good idea to make a massive constitutional change that strips away rights that people were born with on the back of a campaign that lied so repeatedly, that won with a tiny margin that fades with every passing day. This notion that things forever after are fixed in point because of one referendum is such utter lying hypocritical bullshit - w all know Nigel Farage wouldn't stop campaigning, so why should I?

 

[Ucchedavāda]

The 100 isn't the best indicator, too many mining companies that aren't representative of the UK economy. The 250 is better, and has done similarly well since the ref.

Only if you don't account for the drop in the value of the Pound:

 

[Acorn]

Does this mean Article 50 won't be triggered?

Or it will be triggered but nothing will happen about "stopping immigration". So you end up with lots of negatives and the whole point of leaving won't happen lol.

The second most likely.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

At least you're making it painfully obvious that you don't respect direct democracy any more than anyone else. You're yet another person who respects direct democracy when it agrees with your agenda and wants to suppress it whenever you fear it won't.

To say Remain has been 'rejected' is completely laughable. A small majority voted to Leave, a pie in the sky plan which had no substance, based on lies, supported by a general background of xenophobia and racism, against the status quo. Before you start saying that it isn't a small majority, consider this. If you take a random twenty people, the chance is that ten people voted to Remain, and ten people voted to Leave.

It would be absolutely outrageous to come out with another choice which didn't allow people to vote for the Status Quo when it was the original choice of just under half the country, and the vote of the vast majority of experts, economists and politicians.

Direct democracy is stupid, but you know what's infinitely more stupid? Having a second round of direct democracy where around half the country's choice won't be on the ballot paper to begin with. Don't worry though, we get it. You know perfectly well that in a referendum between Remain and a concrete Leave plan, Remain would almost certainly win. The only reason Leave won to begin with is Leave voters all projected what they wanted onto it. Some want to get rid of the EU immigrants, some want to take back our sovereignty (!!), some want to see £350m per week go to the NHS, etc, etc. Very few of them agree on anything and many of these ideas simply can't coincide. Put Remain on a ballot against a Norway style deal and Full Brexit, and you'll see that Remain wins comfortably.

Rejected? Only verses a fantasy.

I've no problem with direct democracy. I waited 30 odd years for that vote and won! If the remainers want a rerun they are perfectly entitled to have another go if they get the mandate for it at a general election (good luck with that btw). Fine by me but it needs to be a simple binary vote so the winner gets over 50%. Having a list of options for out vs 1 option for in is attempting to rig the outcome. I'm sure you wouldn't want a rejoin vote with 3 or 4 versions of what sort of deal we wanted vs just staying out.

 

[Protome]

I've no problem with direct democracy. I waited 30 odd years for that vote and won! If the remainers want a rerun they are perfectly entitled to have another go if they get the mandate for it at a general election (good luck with that btw). Fine by me but it needs to be a simple binary vote so the winner gets over 50%. Having a list of options for out vs 1 option for in is attempting to rig the outcome. I'm sure you wouldn't want a rejoin vote with 3 or 4 versions of what sort of deal we wanted vs just staying out.

In a better structured system it'd require 60% of the vote in each of the members of the Union. Not this "England decides, the rest obey" bullshit.

But having a second vote with improvements like that would be silly too.

 

[kmag]

Vote is done. Yes a vote for leave was a nebulous vote and we'll all have to suffer the consequences of English bigotry and stupidity, but it is what it is.

Hopefully, the fuckwits will have the courage of their convictions and really go it alone.

 

[Rodelero]

I've no problem with direct democracy. I waited 30 odd years for that vote and won! If the remainers want a rerun they are perfectly entitled to have another go if they get the mandate for it at a general election (good luck with that btw). Fine by me but it needs to be a simple binary vote so the winner gets over 50%. Having a list of options for out vs 1 option for in is attempting to rig the outcome. I'm sure you wouldn't want a rejoin vote with 3 or 4 versions of what sort of deal we wanted vs just staying out.

Would you accept a second referendum where the choice was between Remain and a single concrete Leave plan? What you've written has implied you would not accept that.

Direct democracy doesn't automatically become a good idea or legitimate because the vote is binary. If the two choices in such a binary poll don't represent the two most popular viable choices, it's still utterly moronic. Having another referendum, as you suggest, where one of if not the most popular concrete choice wouldn't be represented would be outrageous.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

Would you accept a second referendum where the choice was between Remain and a single concrete Leave plan? What you've written has implied you would not accept that.

Direct democracy doesn't automatically become a good idea or legitimate because the vote is binary. If the two choices in such a binary poll don't represent the two most popular viable choices, it's still utterly moronic. Having another referendum, as you suggest, where one of if not the most popular concrete choice wouldn't be represented would be outrageous.

If a government got elected promising that then yes of course I'd accept that. I just don't think that's very likely ATM going on the distribution of the leave vote and probable outcome of the labour leadership election.

The current government will not be giving you that vote or quite likely any direct vote at all. More likely it'd be part of the next general election platform.

 

[Frankfurter]

In a better structured system it'd require 60% of the vote in each of the members of the Union. Not this "England decides, the rest obey" bullshit.

But having a second vote with improvements like that would be silly too.

You might just as well not have referendums at all, than. Having 60+% in Eng/Scot/NI/Wales is very unlikely for pretty much everything.

 

[RedSparrows]

You might just as well not have referendums at all, than. Having 60+% in Eng/Scot/NI/Wales is very unlikely for pretty much everything.

Sadly I see votes to abolish the monarchy losing by such a margin, and votes for capital punishment winning by such a margin...

 

[Zaph]

I've no problem with direct democracy. I waited 30 odd years for that vote and won! If the remainers want a rerun they are perfectly entitled to have another go if they get the mandate for it at a general election (good luck with that btw). Fine by me but it needs to be a simple binary vote so the winner gets over 50%. Having a list of options for out vs 1 option for in is attempting to rig the outcome. I'm sure you wouldn't want a rejoin vote with 3 or 4 versions of what sort of deal we wanted vs just staying out.

You've wanted the UK to leave the EU for 30 years? That would include the many years where free movement migration was minimal, but the economic benefits were incredible?

 

[Toytown Assassin]

Remain was rejected in July 2016. By the time we even have an idea of what an exit will look like and concluded treaty negotiations remain would win a referendum purely on demographic change.

I don't think it's a good idea to make a massive constitutional change that strips away rights that people were born with on the back of a campaign that lied so repeatedly, that won with a tiny margin that fades with every passing day. This notion that things forever after are fixed in point because of one referendum is such utter lying hypocritical bullshit - w all know Nigel Farage wouldn't stop campaigning, so why should I?

No you shouldn't give up if you don't want to. Campaign away and vote for a party that want's to rejoin/stay. Go at it.

However leave won and should really be tried out in some form and if you are going to have a vote on what form leave takes then remain isn't part of that particular vote. That question was asked and answered. A rejoin vote or as suggested above or a remain vs a decided upon deal vote promoted by a future gov if we have not yet left is another matter.

 

[kmag]

You've wanted the UK to leave the EU for 30 years? That would include the many years where free movement migration was minimal, but the economic benefits were incredible?

And pre 92 where all the sovereignty nonsense became a nonsense.

 

[Toytown Assassin]

You've wanted the UK to leave the EU for 30 years? That would include the many years where free movement migration was minimal, but the economic benefits were incredible?

Yeah I'm a long term outer. I don't like the EU or EEC as was for reasons that have nothing to do with free movement.

 

[twobear]

Keep in mind that this was *before* Brexit.



https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...eece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd

It's truly extraordinary to me that Osborne has managed to maintain a reputation as being a decent chancellor despite his myriad catastrophic failures in improving the economic wellbeing of the country.

 

[RedSparrows]

It's truly extraordinary to me that Osborne has managed to maintain a reputation as being a decent chancellor despite his myriad catastrophic failures in improving the economic wellbeing of the country.

See: 'Take back control', 'Make America great again' - 'We're in it together', or, more usefully perhaps 'Labour's mess'.

 

[Acorn]

It's truly extraordinary to me that Osborne has managed to maintain a reputation as being a decent chancellor despite his myriad catastrophic failures in improving the economic wellbeing of the country.

He had 90% of the press licking his balls. Not that much of a mystery plus used the ol classic tory scroungers rhetoric that gets right wingers rock hard. Especially after 13 years of opposition.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

Continuing the trend of things not going as planned:

Brexit: Article 50 was never actually meant to be used, says its author

Giuliano Amato, a former prime minister of Italy, who later worked with the European Commission, helped draft the European Constitution, which became the Lisbon Treaty.

He said he had written the now infamous Article 50 but that it was largely for show.

[...]

He told the meeting he had specifically inserted the article to prevent the British government complaining there was no way for them to leave the bloc.

via The Independent

 

[Acorn]

See: 'Take back control', 'Make America great again' - 'We're in it together', or, more usefully perhaps 'Labour's mess'.

Twas amusing when he got caught using last government after may 2015 to cries of "you were the last govt". Just changed it to last labour govt and kept digging.

 

[Kabouter]

Yeah I'm a long term outer. I don't like the EU or EEC as was for reasons that have nothing to do with free movement.

I'm curious about what those reasons are, I would like it if you were willing to list them.

 

[Doopliss]

I can see why remainers would love a 3 way vote that splits the leave vote in 2 and allows remain to win with less than 1/2 of the votes but you wont be getting that. Well maybe if the lib dems/smith lab somehow win power and want to rig the vote I guess it could happen but that seems somewhat unlikely at this point for all sorts of reasons.

If only there were some kind of alternative voting system which let people choose fairly between three or more options. Oh well, FPTP it is!

 

[Toytown Assassin]

I'm curious about what those reasons are, I would like it if you were willing to list them.

Sure. Mostly the corruption and unaccountability of much that goes on. Also the fishery and agriculture policies were bad for the UK in my opinion.

I cant say I'm a fan of the ongoing creep to a superstate either but that wasn't something we really noticed back then.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Continuing the trend of things not going as planned:





via The Independent

Well thats the case with a lot of laws.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The 100 isn't the best indicator, too many mining companies that aren't representative of the UK economy. The 250 is better, and has done similarly well since the ref.

It hasn't done similarly well though. They've diverged. When for a very long time it was the 250 that was substantially outperforming the 100.

This all ignoring the currency impact.

And it's driven, (as in quite a few places) not by fundamentals of expected strong forward earnings.

But because there's nothing else to invest in that's giving a good return.

It will probably rise further as the pound tanks if and when Carney lowers rates in the near term.

This all ignoring that really the markets are in a sort of holding pattern denial thing. Where they're still assuming a similar level of market access.

 

[twobear]

Continuing the trend of things not going as planned:





via The Independent

So on top of the French saying 'only the British are stupid enough to privatise their electricity', we now have, 'only the British are stupid enough to invoke Article 50'.

 

[RedSparrows]

Twas amusing when he got caught using last government after may 2015 to cries of "you were the last govt". Just changed it to last labour govt and kept digging.

Aye. It struck me that the fact Cameron could stand at his final PMQs and still pin so much stuff on 'the last Labour government', years after the fact and just after his own, far greater, actually his fault political catastrophe, shows just how effective it's been.

 

[Protome]

You might just as well not have referendums at all, than. Having 60+% in Eng/Scot/NI/Wales is very unlikely for pretty much everything.

It'd be overkill for most things, but for referendums like this where it's a massive change? It should be difficult to pass and it should require the whole Union being behind it.

Instead you end up with the exact scenario you have now where Scotland probably wont even be in the UK in a couple of years.

 

[Camp Freddie]

I love how it's an unstoppable democratic mandate when you ask people to chose between two things, but when you ask them to chose between 3 it's a travesty of democracy and rigging the vote.

The reason I despise the referendum is that it's like having a general election based on "Keep the government" or "get a new government", instead of a decision based on what party should actually govern (or which candidate should represent the local area, if we're being pedantic).

"Tory" vs "Not Tory" would be a landslide win for the "Not Tory" voters.
However, just like the EU debate, it would be meaningless.
Who actually governs? Labour and UKIP are miles apart despite being "Not Tory", so obviously we don't just add all the other parties together to create a "Not Tory" decision.
To follow some of the Brexiteers, we should first vote for "Not Tory" and then, maybe have a runoff between Labour and UKIP to decide who actually rules.
That's why the government typically get elected on around a third of the vote and almost never have an actual majority.

That's the situation we're in with Brexit. We've decided that the majority of people dislike the status quo. That's nice, but it doesn't mean that a majority, or even the largest minority, support a particular change to the status quo.
Boris and UKIP are miles apart in their Brexit strategies, so why should we count their "Not EU" votes together?

If we leave the EU, it will be following a strategy that the majority of people oppose and it will almost certainly be a strategy that is less popular than the Remain status quo.

---
Oh, and Fox is a complete fucking idiot. Let's abandon free trade in goods right now!
He's basically calling for us to unilaterally withdraw from the EU, since there's no other way of pulling out of the customs union.

 

[KingSnake]

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/758229477147181056

Juncker appoints Michel Barnier as EU Commission's Brexit negotiator. Hard to think of a more anti-British figure, declaration of war.

Although I've seen comments that this is not entirely true (anti-British part), but that he's a very good negotiator.

Edit: more details:

http://www.politico.eu/article/mich...chief-europe-negotiations-consquences-future/

By appointing Barnier, who will start work in October, Jean-Claude Juncker has chosen the man who has overseen much of the uneasy and at times tense dialogue between the eurozone and the U.K., during his years as commissioner in charge of the single market.

During his second stint in Brussels — he was a member of the Commission headed by Romano Prodi between 1999 and 2004 — Barnier’s main achievement may well have been to convince City of London financiers, in spite of their initial reservations, that a Frenchman was not necessarily out to get them with hostile, burdensome regulation in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis.

Bankers may not remember fondly all the reforms — notably the one that capped their bonuses — but the City of London as a whole also knows that none of the financial reforms initiated under Barnier’s watch were ever adopted without the consent of the British government.

He even sided, if discreetly, with the U.K. in one of its periodic fights to ensure the eurozone would not end up laying down the law for the whole of the EU. When the European Central Bank wanted to force all clearing operations in euros to be repatriated within the monetary union, the U.K. sued. At the time Barnier didn’t hide that he thought the ECB’s actions ran counter to the spirit of the EU single market. The European Court of Justice ultimately sided with him — and the Brits.

 

[Xando]

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/758229477147181056



Although I've seen comments that this is not entirely true (anti-British part), but that he's a very good negotiator.

declaration of war

What?

Political Editor of The Sun

Now i understand

 

[itxaka]

Sure. Mostly the corruption and unaccountability of much that goes on. Also the fishery and agriculture policies were bad for the UK in my opinion.

I cant say I'm a fan of the ongoing creep to a superstate either but that wasn't something we really noticed back then.

I could understand this.

In spain, the EU policies have meant that a lot of our agriculture is now subsidized and we got quotas on everything. IMHO this has lead to stagnation as we havent been forced to close some jobs and start investing in a different industry, instead we keep an industry that only lives thanks to the EU money, making us very dependent on what is said and done in europe with no regards to our economic viability as a country. This was very visible during the 2008 crash which trashed out construction jobs and suddenly there was no industry in spain which was viable for people to get in, so you get lots of people migrating to other EU countries to work in industries that are non-existant or very primitive.


Sure, not being in the EU would have probably kicked us harder but at least it would have start some R&D and diversification for a long term sustainability. Unfortunately we are still the tourism and agriculture market for europe

 

[Zaph]

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/758229477147181056



Although I've seen comments that this is not entirely true (anti-British part), but that he's a very good negotiator.

I'm sure he can't wait to hear our proposal of single market, immigration control and banking passports.

 

[Funky Papa]

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/758229477147181056



Although I've seen comments that this is not entirely true (anti-British part), but that he's a very good negotiator.

Edit: more details:

http://www.politico.eu/article/mich...chief-europe-negotiations-consquences-future/

I mean, that tweet came from the political editor of The Sun.

 

[KingSnake]

I mean, that tweet came from the political editor of The Sun.

Yeah, the Politico article about him is much better. Funny enough I saw that tweet first because it was retweeted by a Politico editor.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm sure he can't wait to hear our proposal of single market, immigration control and banking passports.

Seeing how he was previously very hands-on with the financial industry and banking passport, one can imagine what the main task will be for these negotiations.

Edit: sorry for the double post.