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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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Theonik
Member
All the good bookshops have shut. I'll just get them off amazon instead.
https://twitter.com/lindayueh/status/822512785057779713
If May can actually get a good (for the UK) trade deal from Trump i'd be very suprised
She will get an awful deal that will allow American firms to plunder the UK and she declare that it's a great success and proof that Brexit can work. The right wing press will sing her praises, all the muppets will rejoice. The NHS is on borrowed time.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-uk-investment-will-be-reviewed-a7537586.html
Nissan boss says at Davos that the investment commitment can be reviewed if the deal is bad. Welp
Nissan boss says at Davos that the investment commitment can be reviewed if the deal is bad. Welp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFp3-qE_T8
Heres Ngaire Woods explaining, in just under two minutes, why Brexit is an unprecedented act of self-harm.
Heres Ngaire Woods explaining, in just under two minutes, why Brexit is an unprecedented act of self-harm.
Australia says UK will need relaxed immigration controls for Australians in order to secure free trade deal
Expect the same from China and India for any trade deals with them as well.
Hey, at least we took back control of our borders right?
Expect the same from China and India for any trade deals with them as well.
Hey, at least we took back control of our borders right?
People gonna read this and think "well, Australia is a smaller nation with a lot shared culture/history, that won't be a problem!". And they'll be right.
But not realise it's now going to be a sticking point of every. single. negotiation.
UK population won't care as they will associate Australians = white people.
JonnyDBrit
Member
That hasn't worked out well for Eastern Europeans so far, though Australians are white and Commonwealth.
Still, would be kinda hilarious if after Brexit immigration figures rose because of laxed migration rules in new trade deals.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Guys, hang on a second. The Anglosphere is extremely tight. It would work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglosphere
Canada and New Zealand would be willing to do a similar deal too, no question. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia combined have a population similar to the UK, plus serious cultural ties, so it would work pretty well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglosphere
Canada and New Zealand would be willing to do a similar deal too, no question. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia combined have a population similar to the UK, plus serious cultural ties, so it would work pretty well.
Minus the UK however, Europe has a population of around 675million, 10 times the population of the UK. Minus the UK, the population of the EU proper is about 440million, but that doesn't include the populations of countries that aren't in the EU but are members of the common market.
Roberto Larcos
Member
None of those countries are geographically close, they aren't nearly as large economically as the EEA, and cannot replace the EEA.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Wouldn't 'businesspeople' suggest that the high tier people would be able to do this and not the average worker? Assuming this is reciprocal most people will not see any new opportunities from this. Unless you're some kind of corporate executive I wouldn't hold my breath.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Population isn't everything. The UK has very little in common with many member states.
Oh, I never said it was preferable from an economic standpoint, just that free movement of labour would work quite well between the nations of the Anglosphere.
Australia and New Zealand already have that free movement.
So since a relaxation of controls was being talked about RE:Australia, I'm saying such a thing would work quite well, and better than European single market free movement.
China and India have enormous populations and very different economies. It's tiring to hear them brought up, it's not happening. Canada is one of the most open countries on Earth and has accepted enormous numbers from those regions, but they do not, and know they cannot, have free movement with those parts of the world. 36 million against 2.6 billion just isn't happening. Relaxed controls with those countries just is not going to happen. It's near impossible to have negotiations with those enormous countries because they can never be fair in that regard. The Visa regulations make sense.
China and India have too many human beings to do a big deal with, period. The math just doesn't work.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
And free movement doesn't work with Europe because of 'culture'? Are you one of those people who think that the UK isn't a European country or something? I think people living here have many things in common with mainland Europeans as well, maybe less so with the newer Eastern European members of the EU, but definitely with Western and Northern Europe.
chromatic9
Member
There was major German business meeting held today and two "plucky" brits went along.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38694465
The response turned pretty bad in the end.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38707997
Awfully embarrassing. UK should be going about it with humility not thinly veiled threats and EU bashing humour. I still don't get this logic of UK has some cards to deal let alone many or all. It's plunder time for the EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38694465
The response turned pretty bad in the end.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38707997
Awfully embarrassing. UK should be going about it with humility not thinly veiled threats and EU bashing humour. I still don't get this logic of UK has some cards to deal let alone many or all. It's plunder time for the EU.
The UK's cards at this point in time are the Four of Diamonds, Miss Brown the Baker's Daughter, Magikarp, a Skylanders Superchargers upgrade and a Doctor Who Sontaran card cut from a 1970's box of Weetabix against the EU's royal flush.
And they think they're playing Snap.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Edit: Nevermind
PJV3
Member
I think that was for the best.
I have literally no idea what you're saying. Is it that we shouldn't form a new trade agreement with India or China?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I'm saying there might not be a reasonable deal to have.
China talked about unequal treaties a lot in the past with regard to Hong Kong and Macau in particular, but now the tables have turned simply due to population. There's only so much you can do with fish as large as India and China. The current Visa system works fine.
There's nothing to discuss, really.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I am disappointed at the referendum result. Even moreso due to the fact that the many EU opt-outs were substantial and, frankly, I think most countries were jealous. That should have been enough.
Total isolationism doesn't really work when you're a nation of trade and have long been a nation of trade. I don't see how this works with the Common Travel Area either.
Staying with Europe would have been a better choice...warts and all.
Britain all by itself can't negotiate anything other than a lopsided trade deal with China or India and even then such a deal would not involve unfettered access to the most lucrative and protected sectors of their economies, those would remain closed off; the British economy is simply not big enough to open them up. Even the Swiss couldn't get lower tariffs on their watch imports in their trade deal with China.
Also we are a services based economy anyway with services as a percentage of exports growing year on year and trade deals do not typically cover that.
No deal is better than a bad deal to quote a certain someone.
Also we are a services based economy anyway with services as a percentage of exports growing year on year and trade deals do not typically cover that.
No deal is better than a bad deal to quote a certain someone.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Exactly. There's not really any deal to be had for a lot of reasons.
Besides, the EU was a much larger negotiating bloc if you wanted to do a deal with them anyways.
AHA-Lambda
Member
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-eu-and-open-trade-talks-with-other-countries
May Set to Defy EU by Opening Pre-Brexit Trade Talks With Others
May Set to Defy EU by Opening Pre-Brexit Trade Talks With Others
Roberto Larcos
Member
She doesn't care about single market access, she knows the economy will go to shit anyway. She wants the EU to look like the 'bad guy' - so they can be blamed when the economy tanks.
PJV3
Member
In our post-truth world the would be Trump voters who live on this festing Isle will gleefully follow along. Like the Republican's who managed to coax large amounts of non-college educated working class whites to vote based on demagoguery against their own economic interest the Tories now see an opportunity to make the traditional Labour heartlands a new "West Virginia".
The Tory part could not give a single fuck about this country as long as it clings onto power. Looking across the pond at the vermin now in charge there it's not too surprising. Birds of a feather flock together.
Tory Rod Stewart doesn't think too highly of May.
Tory donor predicts Theresa May will have to quit within two years
The supreme court ruling is at 9:30am tomorrow.
Tory donor predicts Theresa May will have to quit within two years
A Tory donor who helped fund the legal challenge to the governments Brexit plans has predicted Theresa May will be forced from office within two years because of the economic consequences of leaving the EU.
Charlie Mullins, the founder of the London-based company Pimlico Plumbers, said the prime minister and other senior Tories had isolated themselves from core Conservative businesspeople and sacrificed the public good for their careers.
Speaking on the eve of the result of the governments supreme court challenge to the ruling that May must consult parliament to trigger article 50, Mullinss comments are a reflection of growing splits within the Conservative business community over Brexit.
I dont think that Theresa May is going to be around in two years once the EU negotiations kick in, he said. She is setting this up but someone else will have to pick up the pieces when it all goes really wrong.
When she goes, the damage will have been done and its going to take a long, long time to get back to where we are today. People in business just cannot believe that she is cutting us off from a market of 500 million people.
...
Interviewed at his business headquarters in Oval, Mullins said he expected the judgment to go against the government. I would be very very surprised to see it go the other way. It would be a miscarriage of justice, he said.
If the judgment is as expected, I want MPs to get together and get us the best possible deal. At least its going to be more transparent.
I think this is money well spent. Im thinking about my children, my grandchildren, the future of the country. People are going to thank people like me and Gina Miller further down the line, he said.
They havent gone through with all this for the country, they have done it for personal reasons, because they wanted top jobs in government. It is our children who are going to have to pick up the pieces, he said.
The supreme court ruling is at 9:30am tomorrow.
To be honest, he's probably not wrong.
On the other hand, just remember this.
Theresa May was the best candidate during the last selection process.
Who in the hell could we end up with if she goes?
Theonik
Member
Come on northern Ireland.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...if-supreme-court-rules-stormont-a7542276.html
I would love to see a brexit that is pushed through despite local politicians voting against.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...if-supreme-court-rules-stormont-a7542276.html
I would love to see a brexit that is pushed through despite local politicians voting against.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The largest party in Northern Ireland (prior to the dissolution of the assembly), the DUP, is pro-Brexit. That article is biased and didn't even talk to either major Unionist party, one of which (the UUP) was pro-Remain.
Northern Ireland also has only 3% of the UK's total population.
That would force May to overrule both the Northern Irish and Scottish Parliament. I wonder what the Tory called that when the EU does it. Although it can't happen in the EU, every country there has equal veto powers. Germany and France can't push something through if half the members disagree. And if you don't like that possibility, get everyone you know to vote for the right people.
It's called a national government.
The only federal government I know of in existence that allows one region to overrule national policy is Belgium, and that's because Belgium is a unique country. California can't say no to any foreign policy decisions or treaties trump signs, nor can Bavaria to Merkel.
I think Brexit is the dumbest thing ever, and welcome any attempt to stop it, but the idea that because the devolved parliaments can't overrule makes our country broken goes completely contrary to basically every example of federal government that exists on the planet.
Gurgelhals
Member
Most federal governments have a proper form of bicameralism installed at the national level though. I agree that it doesn't really make sense to give the regional parliaments a say or even a direct veto in matters of foreign policy, but most democratic systems of government still provide a way for a majority of the regions to prevent bills from passing regardless of whether you look at elected bodies such as the US Senate or appointed bodies such as the German Bundesrat. The current way in which the UK does bicameralism at the national level, however, is, well ... a bit odd, to say the least.
I would scream ceaselessly for the 4 years. Even in my sleep.
And the SNP have 50+ MPs in parliament. Just like California has 2 senators, and Bavaria gets representatives in the Bundesrat. No one region can prevent something from passing - heck, republicans controlled the vast majority of state governerships over the last 4 years and they couldn't stop Obama's foreign policy stuff.
D
Deleted member 231381
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Not to mention that the SNP gets 50+ seats because of FPTP. With a proportional system, about 21 Scottish MPs would be backing Brexit.
PR could do a lot for the union, I think. Slight differences in Scottish and English politics are exaggerated by the winner-take-all nature.
PR could do a lot for the union, I think. Slight differences in Scottish and English politics are exaggerated by the winner-take-all nature.
Just to play slight devils advocate to my own points, I do think that a federal UK isn't really possible. The population imbalance is too great -you can't have a federal state where one state has 84% of the population, it just doesn't work. It would be like California, North Dakota and Wyoming forming a state. Either the smaller states will always be overridden because they are of much smaller, or they will veto stuff and the larger state will (rightly) feel that a tiny minority has too much influence.
Whatever the future of the UK is, I don't think federalism works for us.
Whatever the future of the UK is, I don't think federalism works for us.
JonnyDBrit
Member
The only way to do it would be to pilfer one of the models for English devolution, and divide England alone into a series of regions with roughly equivalent standing and powers to the current devolved countries. The thing is, I doubt you'd get the real support of identity needed for it, and it would almost certainly making the centering of politics on urban areas all the more explicit (even if just in trying to draw relatively balanced boundaries). Plus, in the short term it wouldn't likely cause a real political shift until (or even if) people get used to the notion that they can vote regionally.
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