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[QuicheFontaine]

The only way to do it would be to pilfer one of the models for English devolution, and divide England alone into a series of regions with roughly equivalent standing and powers to the current devolved countries. The thing is, I doubt you'd get the real support of identity needed for it, and it would almost certainly making the centering of politics on urban areas all the more explicit (even if just in trying to draw relatively balanced boundaries). Plus, in the short term it wouldn't likely cause a real political shift until (or even if) people get used to the notion that they can vote regionally.

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined West of England Authority. That area encompasses South Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and North East Somerset. And the people from those areas I'm sure are very proud of their heritage, traditions, etc. but I don't think it will prevent governance or cooperation. And I think the same would apply if you simply scaled up the Metro Mayor concept to a Regional Mayor in charge of Gloucester, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall.

Edit:

If this were the model followed, it looks like one of the regions would be basically just "Yorkshire", which definitely does have an identity!

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined West of England Authority. That area encompasses South Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and North East Somerset. And the people from those areas I'm sure are very proud of their heritage, traditions, etc. but I don't think it will prevent governance or cooperation. And I think the same would apply if you simply scaled up the Metro Mayor concept to a Regional Mayor in charge of Gloucester, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall.

Right, but that's not seeing the country dissolved at a higher political level. Federalising the UK into similarly sized regions would require that 'England', as a political concept, cease to exist, and any identity associated with it become secondary to the regional identity. You know, so people are actually invested in continuing with that model, rather than deciding a few years later that it'd be much easier and much more comfortable if they can call themselves English once more.

But, as you fairly raise, some areas do have that going for them, which could be galvanised in such an effort. The South West even has its own domestic ethnic minority in the form of the Cornish, and it's well known how cities like Liverpool and Manchester feel about being equated with London. I suppose if they got into the whole idea, other ideas might be encouraged to match.

Still have my doubts, but ultimately it does increasingly seem like the best model for rebalancing power across the UK.

 

[Kabouter]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined West of England Authority. That area encompasses South Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and North East Somerset. And the people from those areas I'm sure are very proud of their heritage, traditions, etc. but I don't think it will prevent governance or cooperation. And I think the same would apply if you simply scaled up the Metro Mayor concept to a Regional Mayor in charge of Gloucester, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall.

Edit:

If this were the model followed, it looks like one of the regions would be basically just "Yorkshire", which definitely does have an identity!

That picture looks so much like a grand strategy game map that it makes me want to conquer Britain.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Right, but that's not seeing the country dissolved at a higher political level. Federalising the UK into similarly sized regions would require that 'England', as a political concept, cease to exist, and any identity associated with it become secondary to the regional identity. You know, so people are actually invested in continuing with that model, rather than deciding a few years later that it'd be much easier and much more comfortable if they can call themselves English once more.

But, as you fairly raise, some areas do have that going for them, which could be galvanised in such an effort. The South West even has its own domestic ethnic minority in the form of the Cornish, and it's well known how cities like Liverpool and Manchester feel about being equated with London. I suppose if they got into the whole idea, other ideas might be encouraged to match.

Still have my doubts, but ultimately it does increasingly seem like the best model for rebalancing power across the UK.

Does 'England' really exist as a political concept now? I'm not even being facetious: there's no English parliament right now. For legal stuff it's 'England and Wales'. People are still happy to call themselves English though.

Edit:

That picture looks so much like a grand strategy game map that it makes me want to conquer Britain.

It's a fun level! Plenty of different strategies for that lol

Edit2:

For my money, the Dutch had the best strategy as well

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Does 'England' really exist as a political concept now? I'm not even being facetious: there's no English parliament right now. For legal stuff it's 'England and Wales'. People are still happy to call themselves English though.

Edit:



It's a fun level! Plenty of different strategies for that lol

Given that Wales has its own devolved assembly, while UK power is primarily concentrated in what we call England, yes. It's a case of it largely being the default while everything else has to be qualified as to why it's different. I mean, that's part of why the whole debate on English devolution exists. So, to adopt a regional model would be to remove that default.

 

[RedSparrows]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined West of England Authority. That area encompasses South Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and North East Somerset. And the people from those areas I'm sure are very proud of their heritage, traditions, etc. but I don't think it will prevent governance or cooperation. And I think the same would apply if you simply scaled up the Metro Mayor concept to a Regional Mayor in charge of Gloucester, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall.

Edit:

If this were the model followed, it looks like one of the regions would be basically just "Yorkshire", which definitely does have an identity!

As a proud Devonian, yer avin a laugh withat nonsense. Nevur Cornwall be our masturs, nor Brizzol or Glouuucestur.

The South West starts at the Quantocks. At a pinch. Portland Bill, perhaps. Anything else is hinterland bandit country with no hint of decency or merit.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

As a proud Devonian, yer avin a laugh withat nonsense. Nevur Cornwall be our masturs, nor Brizzol or Glouuucestur.

The South West starts at the Quantocks. At a pinch. Portland Bill, perhaps. Anything else is hinterland bandit country with no hint of decency or merit.

This may be harder than I thought. Maybe we could unite over our shared love of getting rat-arsed on cider?

 

[Roberto Larcos]

As a proud Devonian, yer avin a laugh withat nonsense. Nevur Cornwall be our masturs, nor Brizzol or Glouuucestur.

The South West starts at the Quantocks. At a pinch. Portland Bill, perhaps. Anything else is hinterland bandit country with no hint of decency or merit.

This may be harder than I thought. Maybe we could unite over our shared love of getting rat-arsed on cider?

Cornwall can be it's own thing - from there we can have the unification of Hardy's Wessex.

 

[Paulie_C]

Come on northern Ireland.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...if-supreme-court-rules-stormont-a7542276.html
I would love to see a brexit that is pushed through despite local politicians voting against.

There's no chance of NI politicians blocking this. As mentioned, the largest party, the DUP are ferverently pro-leave and will block anything with a petition of concern.

Besides NI is in a mess at the min. The institutions have collapsed and there are fresh elections on March 2nd. If DUP and SF get in again, the insitutions may not go back up and we could well see a return to Direct Rule.

 

[Uzzy]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined West of England Authority. That area encompasses South Gloucestershire, Bristol, Bath and North East Somerset. And the people from those areas I'm sure are very proud of their heritage, traditions, etc. but I don't think it will prevent governance or cooperation. And I think the same would apply if you simply scaled up the Metro Mayor concept to a Regional Mayor in charge of Gloucester, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall.

Edit:

If this were the model followed, it looks like one of the regions would be basically just "Yorkshire", which definitely does have an identity!

Yorkshire gets a regional assembly. Yorkshire declares independence and installs Sean Bean as the King in the North. Yorkshire becomes the greatest country on Earth and forces the rest of the UK to submit to our inspired leadership, with Yorkshire Puddings and Chip Spice for all.

It'll happen.

 

[Tea and Toast]

I just looked up chip spice and had myself a Hull history lesson.

 

[Uzzy]

I just looked up chip spice and had myself a Hull history lesson.

Hull's finest contribution to civilisation.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Hull's finest only contribution to civilisation.

EDIT: And that one joke in Blackadder, if we're being fair.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

EDIT: And that one joke in Blackadder, if we're being fair.

William Wilberforce might just sneak in ahead of both.

 

[RedSparrows]

This may be harder than I thought. Maybe we could unite over our shared love of getting rat-arsed on cider?

Fie! Thems grockles know urr secrut! Fetch me anut'ur, maid!

(holy christ what am I typing)

Yorkshire becomes the greatest country on Earth

Pretty sure you've missed the boat on that being announced, according to LOL EVERY YORKSHIREMAN EVER LOL.

 

[Uzzy]

EDIT: And that one joke in Blackadder, if we're being fair.

'And then the final, irrefutable proof. Remember, you mentioned a clever boyfriend...'
'Yes'
'I then leapt on the opportunity to test you. I asked if he'd heard of one of Hull's great contributions to civilisation, Chip Spice, William Wilberforce or this Blackadder joke?'
'Well?'
'You failed to spot that only two of those are great contributions to civilisation!'
'Swine!'
'That's right!

Spoiler

Oxford's a complete dump!

'

 

[fanboi]

That picture looks so much like a grand strategy game map that it makes me want to conquer Britain.

You did.

When I owned all of it fucker.

 

[theaface]

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-faces-calls-to-reveal-more-brexit-details-10741767

The chairman of Vote Leave Watch, Labour MP Chuka Umunna, told Sky News: "Parliament is free to add amendments to the Article 50 Bill and the Great Repeal Bill to make sure it delivers, whether they voted Leave or Remain.

"So I would like to see, for example, a commitment to put £350m a week into the NHS that Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, Liam Fox and Chris Grayling committed to during the referendum campaign."

Perfection. Time to enact the democratic will of the people, right?

 

[sammex]

It's only fair. That's what people voted for right? Why would you go against the will of the people? (Unless you're a gay Olympic fencer)

 

[Deleted member 231381]

William Wilberforce might just sneak in ahead of both.

He defected to Yorkshire proper, doesn't count.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

At the risk of derailing the Brexit thread with some actual news:

Theresa May promises White Paper on EU exit plan - BBC News

 

[Uzzy]

At the risk of derailing the Brexit thread with some actual news:

Theresa May promises White Paper on EU exit plan - BBC News

While that's good to see, it's pretty shocking to see how they reversed their position overnight. Almost as if they're making it up as they go along.

 

[Bleepey]

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-faces-calls-to-reveal-more-brexit-details-10741767



Perfection. Time to enact the democratic will of the people, right?

Hahaha. Hanging them by their own noose.
I bet he had the biggest troll face when he said that

 

[Number45]

At the risk of derailing the Brexit thread with some actual news:

Theresa May promises White Paper on EU exit plan - BBC News

She seems determined to act on the instructions of whoever spoke last.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

If this were the model followed, it looks like one of the regions would be basically just "Yorkshire", which definitely does have an identity!

There's no real demand for English devolution, including in the North. There's really nothing to discuss.

Where it was thought to be strongest (Northumberland rather than Yorkshire), a referendum failed and that meant it wouldn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_East_England_devolution_referendum,_2004

Then there was another brief attempt last year:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/08/north-east-england-devolution-deal-off-the-table-sajid-javid

There's no real appetite. Even in Wales, devolution passed by the narrowest of margins in 1997.

 

[phisheep]

I don't think this really is needed though. I live in the south-west of England but I'm not from here originally - I don't identify as a south-wester or whatever - but I still see the benefits of the counties round here cooperating on issues that would affect this part of the world.

Heck, in May I'll certainly be voting in the elections for the "Metro Mayor", who will be in charge of a combined

As a proud Devonian, yer avin a laugh withat nonsense. Nevur Cornwall be our masturs, nor Brizzol or Glouuucestur.

The South West starts at the Quantocks. At a pinch. Portland Bill, perhaps. Anything else is hinterland bandit country with no hint of decency or merit.

One of the problems with regional government is there's no actual appetite for another layer of politicians.

Another and probably far greater problem as RedSparrows pointed out is regional political cronyism. If there's a South West region it would almost certainly be run from Bristol, and everyone in Exeter, Taunton, Truro, Barnstaple, Plymouth not to mention the more rural areas (most of it) would resent this greatly. Similarly Liverpool would be pissed off to high heaven at being governed from Manchester, ditto Yorkshire and Sheffield. North Wales only just puts up with Cardiff. The closer the enemy, the worse the conflict.

Westminster is just close enough to be "ours" but just remote enough to not be a perpetual thorn in the side.

I'd much rather more delegation of authority to local councils, accompanied by freedom to develop joint services, and accompanied - in border counties - by the ability to choose by referendum whether they wish to be governed by Westminster or Holyrood or Cardiff. I suspect that farmers in the Ludlow area might vote heavily to merge with Wales, and that's all to the good.

p.s. my area has decided not to join in the South Glos/Bath/Bristol Metro Mayor thing, and that's probably sensible.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I'd much rather more delegation of authority to local councils, accompanied by freedom to develop joint services, and accompanied - in border counties - by the ability to choose by referendum whether they wish to be governed by Westminster or Holyrood or Cardiff. I suspect that farmers in the Ludlow area might vote heavily to merge with Wales, and that's all to the good.

p.s. my area has decided not to join in the South Glos/Bath/Bristol Metro Mayor thing, and that's probably sensible.

England and Wales' border is non-negotiable. There are some areas with English place names in Wales, and some areas with Welsh place names in England, but the border was finalised in 1974 in favour of Wales, actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouthshire_(historic)#Ambiguity_over_status

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Government_Act_1972

Likewise with England and Scotland. I mean, it's been made pretty clear that Northumberland does not want devolution as I provided evidence for in my prior post. Extra benefits provided to Scotland by largely English taxpayers will not extend to Northumberland or Cumbria.

Especially with the threat of Scottish independence, there's no real appetite in England to change a border than has not been changed since the Capture of Berwick in 1482. It's not happening. It's a very well-defined border and the territorial integrity of each constituent country is not changing.

The devolved countries having extra funding per head often paid by English taxpayers is a benefit of union.

 

[phisheep]

England and Wales' border is non-negotiable.

Well, you say that, but politics has turned on its head a bit the lest 6-7 months. Non-negotiable might not mean what it used to mean.

Likewise with England and Scotland. I mean, it's been made pretty clear that Northumberland does not want devolution as I provided evidence for in my prior post. Extra benefits provided to Scotland by largely English taxpayers will not extend to Northumberland or Cumbria.

Not wanting devolution within England is not the same as not wanting Union with Scotland.

Especially with the threat of Scottish independence, there's no real appetite in England to change a border than has not been changed since the Capture of Berwick in 1482. It's not happening. It's a very well-defined border and the territorial integrity of each constituent country is not changing.

The devolved countries having extra funding per head often paid by English taxpayers is a benefit of union.

The SNP should be running candidates in the north of england. Then we'll see.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Well, you say that, but politics has turned on its head a bit the lest 6-7 months. Non-negotiable might not mean what it used to mean.



Not wanting devolution within England is not the same as not wanting Union with Scotland.


The SNP should be running candidates in the north of england. Then we'll see.

No, I mean it's a non-starter. The SNP cannot change the border even if they won in Northern England (which is nearly impossible), there's no way such a referendum would be allowed as it would have no justification. These places have been English for many hundreds of years, and you're not about to carve out part of England and attach it to places it hasn't been associated with, in many cases, in close to 1500 years.

It's not going to happen.

Not to mention, those regions voted for Brexit, and there's a huge difference between English law and Scots Law.

 

[JonathanEx]

Here's the fabled 1 line bill.

Nah, it's at least 3.

http://www.publications.parliament....6-2017/0132/cbill_2016-20170132_en_2.htm#l1g1


More info: http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/europeanunionnotificationofwithdrawal.html

The Bill was introduced to the House of Commons and given its First Reading on Thursday 26 January 2017. This stage is formal and takes place without any debate.
What happens next?

MPs will next consider the Bill at Second Reading. The Bill is expected to have its Second Reading debate on Tuesday 31 January 2017 with conclusion of Second Reading on Wednesday 1 February 2017.

The Bill is then due to be considered in Committee on Monday 6 and Tuesday 7 February 2017, concluding in Committee on Wednesday 8 February 2017 when the remaining stages are also due to take place.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

One of the problems with regional government is there's no actual appetite for another layer of politicians.

Another and probably far greater problem as RedSparrows pointed out is regional political cronyism. If there's a South West region it would almost certainly be run from Bristol, and everyone in Exeter, Taunton, Truro, Barnstaple, Plymouth not to mention the more rural areas (most of it) would resent this greatly. Similarly Liverpool would be pissed off to high heaven at being governed from Manchester, ditto Yorkshire and Sheffield. North Wales only just puts up with Cardiff. The closer the enemy, the worse the conflict.

Westminster is just close enough to be "ours" but just remote enough to not be a perpetual thorn in the side.

I'd much rather more delegation of authority to local councils, accompanied by freedom to develop joint services, and accompanied - in border counties - by the ability to choose by referendum whether they wish to be governed by Westminster or Holyrood or Cardiff. I suspect that farmers in the Ludlow area might vote heavily to merge with Wales, and that's all to the good.

p.s. my area has decided not to join in the South Glos/Bath/Bristol Metro Mayor thing, and that's probably sensible.

I completely get that, and I ascribe the failure of the referendums linked by EleventhHourSuperpower to that. If I remember correctly it was a large focus of the No campaign ("another layer of bloody useless local politicians" - a view I have a lot of sympathy for incidentally!).

But what I'm talking about wouldn't be another layer of politicians. It would be a replacement for Westminster, and would put the regional "parliaments" (or whatever) on an equal footing with those in Scotland, Wales and NI. That's a bit different, right?

Edit:

Similarly Liverpool would be pissed off to high heaven at being governed from Manchester

Obviously the North West would be governed from Preston, so no problem there

 

[phisheep]

But what I'm talking about wouldn't be another layer of politicians. It would be a replacement for Westminster, and would put the regional "parliaments" (or whatever) on an equal footing with those in Scotland, Wales and NI. That's a bit different, right?

Blimey, it certainly would be. Not sure how this would work with foreign policy though, or indeed transport, health, policing, armed services, NHS, tax policy etc etc. Crumbs.

 

[Meadows]

Any North West devolved power would probably go in Warrington, as having it in either Liverpool or Manchester would piss one or the other off, and Preston is a bit far away from where the economic power of the region lies (M62).

 

[Maledict]

Any North West devolved power would probably go in Warrington, as having it in either Liverpool or Manchester would piss one or the other off, and Preston is a bit far away from where the economic power of the region lies (M62).

It will be Leyland - the trucks rise again!

 

[Halph n Halph]

Any North West devolved power would probably go in Warrington, as having it in either Liverpool or Manchester would piss one or the other off, and Preston is a bit far away from where the economic power of the region lies (M62).

If power devolved to either Liverpool or MCR ,the first act of the new parliament would be to cut all gas, electricity , food and water supplies to the other

 

[Lagamorph]

Any North West devolved power would probably go in Warrington, as having it in either Liverpool or Manchester would piss one or the other off, and Preston is a bit far away from where the economic power of the region lies (M62).

None of this places should even be considered "North"

 

[*Splinter]

If power devolved to either Liverpool or MCR ,the first act of the new parliament would be to cut all gas, electricity , food and water supplies to the other

If only they could share the power, Halph n Halph

 

[Halph n Halph]

If only they could share the power, Halph n Halph

Quite!

 

[Pancake Mix]

But what I'm talking about wouldn't be another layer of politicians. It would be a replacement for Westminster, and would put the regional "parliaments" (or whatever) on an equal footing with those in Scotland, Wales and NI. That's a bit different, right?

That might be a minority view though. Besides, those are statistical regions, not always traditional regions. Merseyside being in the same region as Cumbria, for example.

If there's an appetite, there could be regional assemblies at some point. If there's not, there won't be.

I don't think there's real interest.

 

[RedSparrows]

Yeah, regional assemblies have not proven popular when referendum...ised.

It's curious. Brexit was a 'fuck you, Westminster/Brussels!' whilst also a 'hold us close, Westminster!'.

 

[Halph n Halph]

Westminster is a bubble detached even from much of London never mind Manchester , Bristol, Newcastle etc. I quite like that. It reminds me of my place

 

[Starwolf_UK]

https://twitter.com/JoStevensLabour/status/824987535659130880
What's this, Corbyn looking like he is losing another Shadow Cabinet over Brexit? Theresa will have joke material for days at PMQ...

Thing is given bill might as well say:

Brexit means Brexit and I want to make a mess of it.

Yours truly,
Theresa Mayhem

Maybe the whip should have been issued after amendment and debate.

It's also quite amusing to see the party whip saying he will rebel.

 

[chadskin]

Mr Clegg said: "I’d always assumed that what she’d do [after the referendum result] is jump on a plane in the dead of night and - without telling the press - go to Berlin, have a nice sauerkraut dinner with Angel Merkel and say to her ‘listen this is a nightmare for us. I don’t want this, you don’t want this. Let’s try to quickly reach an accommodation’.”

Mr Clegg added: “Theresa May would then…go back to the British people and [tell them] that she’s been able to introduce a more material change to freedom of movement than her predecessor secured. In return May would then say to Merkel that she would do everything she could to pursue an EEA style continued membership of the single market to minimise the economic disruption. It was confirmed to me in private that this is exactly what the Germans expected as well. They were ready to make precisely that concession.”

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/hss/191708.html

Interesting if true.

 

[D4Danger]

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/hss/191708.html

Interesting if true.

Clegg is either stupid or naive if he thinks that was ever really on the table. Germany and other EU states made that perfectly clear what being part of the single market meant.

 

[daviyoung]

a sauerkraut dinner? were they both dressed in lederhose with their hair in pigtails as well?

 

[Theonik]

a sauerkraut dinner? were they both dressed in lederhose with their hair in pigtails as well?

Ja

 

[Uzzy]

Clegg is either stupid or naive if he thinks that was ever really on the table. Germany and other EU states made that perfectly clear what being part of the single market meant.

Mandelson was saying something similar late last year.

 

[blazinglord]

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/hss/191708.html

Interesting if true.

Lol, delusional.

This is the guy whose defining legacy is making the Conservatives electable again. Consign him to the dustbin of political history please.

 

[PJV3]

I wouldn't rubbish Clegg on EU matters, he Is very well connected. Still Germany going along with it isn't the same as all members doing so.

 

[D4Danger]

I wouldn't rubbish Clegg on EU matters, he Is very well connected. Still Germany going along with it isn't the same as all members doing so.

I don't doubt there were some who would've preferred that but you only need to look at that pathetic deal Cameron came back with to see how much they were willing to give up. It was said over and over the UK couldn't cherry pick so if it was a bluff then May called it and we're all a little worse for it. I think Clegg is talking bollocks though and just trying to pretend like there was another option when clearly there isn't because it helps the Lib Dems cause.