Arrogant? Please. Hopefully more MPs (and I mean a lot more) do this so we can spare ourselves this awful decision.
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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Arrogant? Please. Hopefully more MPs (and I mean a lot more) do this so we can spare ourselves this awful decision.
Huw_Dawson
Member
His argument is entirely valid - he knows full well that leaving the EU is bad for Rhondda, so he's damn well voting against.
The Disney World analogy is entirely right. If you're the one ultimately responsible for making the family holiday decision, and you know full well that you can't afford to go to Disney World, you don't go to Disney World, despite the protestations of your family.
You certainly don't listen to a family vote that decides that something more interesting than Cornwall is in order, with your wife as the swing vote, and then assume that she ALSO wants to go to Disney World.
This is because the Leave vote was comprised of many different kinds of people. Some wanted us to be more international and less bound up in the EU ("we should take our needed immigrants from the world equally, rather than over-prioritizing a Polish plumber over a Somali doctor"). Some voted for white nationalist reasons ("British jobs for British workers"). Some used the referendum to give a black eye to a government that doesn't listen to them anyway (see: AV referendum).
That's not a consensus bloc asking for hard Brexit. That's pulling off some bandages and seeing a variety of wounds that need healing in our society, and then just lopping the limb off instead because you diagnose the problem as you being too heavy.
If you're an MP, and you know that in 2020 your constituency will be hurting because we left the EU, your choices are:
1. Annoy some of your electorate now, and get proven right.
2. Annoy less of your electorate now, and look like a coward in 2020.
The comparison to the Iraq War is 100% valid here. MPs took leave of their senses, did something extremely stupid, and had the vote hanging over their necks for a decade afterwards.
the vote is over and the idea of a politician then standing up and saying to his voters they are too stupid to make the right decision is unbelievable to me. I mean a lot of the current wave of populist voting is because people feel disconnected from their leaders and this just cements that. There's nothing to gain from voting against it expect to make it about yourself. I get that some MPs were pissed about Corbyn making them vote leave when they don't believe it and their constituency didn't vote that way but to just make it all about you and ignore you voters is incredible arrogant.
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's not arrogance to vote for what you believe is right, though. It's the point of a representative democracy - your MP makes decisions on your behalf, not necessarily decisions you agree with. You have the opportunity to punish them at the next election.
Cabaratier
Neo Member
I'd say it is about the opposite of 'making it about himself'. As the poster above has noted, if he votes against it will because of his belief that leaving the EU is bad for his constituents, even though that decision may well leave him personally worse off (in case of another GE soon).
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's worth considering that the chances of a GE before 2020 are nil.
The reason why A50 is on this timetable is because it's critically important for the UK to be starting to recover from leaving before the Tories ask to be voted back into power.
This is why May will take the nuclear option if needed. She doesn't need to do a good deal - she just needs to leave the EU. She'll be rewarded by the entrenched right-wing minority that she's built for herself.
The reason why A50 is on this timetable is because it's critically important for the UK to be starting to recover from leaving before the Tories ask to be voted back into power.
This is why May will take the nuclear option if needed. She doesn't need to do a good deal - she just needs to leave the EU. She'll be rewarded by the entrenched right-wing minority that she's built for herself.
FlammableD
Banned
Have a GIF of it
yeah I don't know about that. I thinking more bigger picture I guess with the way things are going I imagine being part of a majority that is totally ignored by your MP just fans the flames. I don't know if the Iraq war example is valid either because this vote isn't the vote if you know what I mean. It's easy enough to vote for this legislation without supporting it but respecting the outcome of the referendum. Nobody is going to hold you to account in the same way.
Huw_Dawson
Member
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq/
In 2003, you were voting against the sentiment of the public if you voted against the Iraq War. Charles Kennedy was vilified over it.
Kennedy will go down in history as right. All those MPs that listened to their constituencies over their own judgment have blood on their hands.
If you'd held a referendum in 2003 over Iraq, Invade would have won. That doesn't mean invading was right, that doesn't change the perspective of history.
The Iraq vote is 100% valid as a comparison.
Alx
Member
Lol @ moustache guy. "I'm out !"
I think this is getting off-topic a little. My point is Chris Bryant voted for the referendum, his constituency voted leave and the country voted leave. This legislation is basically meaningless rubber stamp but only now has he found a consensus. If you're saying MPs should vote with their consensus and sometimes ignore their voters why did he let it even get this far? The whole thing was a fucking farce so standing up against it now is pathetic. And as I said above it only does more damage to the idea that MPs don't listen. If you have a set of principles then great but you don't get to pick and choose after the damage is done. Like the SNP has always been against it and now when they come out against it it has some weight to it.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Michael Crick is reporting that Paul Nuttall's registered address for the Stoke by-election is fictional - he does not live there.
This is against Electoral Commission rules, meaning his candidate nomination form is invalid.
LOL
EDIT: @D4Danger - voting to let the public have their say is different from voting to leave the European Union, ultimately. And an MP is allowed to change their mind.
This is against Electoral Commission rules, meaning his candidate nomination form is invalid.
LOL
EDIT: @D4Danger - voting to let the public have their say is different from voting to leave the European Union, ultimately. And an MP is allowed to change their mind.
FlammableD
Banned
He's another kipper funnily enough
https://twitter.com/RogerHelmerMEP/status/826832147977744384
Labour MEP (euro-fanatic and climate alarmist) plays silly buggers behind Nigel Farage in a plenary debate. Seb is 35. Time he grew up.
PJV3
Member
Really?
I take it it's a temporary problem and he can re-register. I'd love him to be out permanently.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Nominations are closed. It's against the rules to put down an invalid home address, but it's up to the Acting Returning Officer to do something about it - they have authority to correct procedural errors.
It'd probably be anti-democratic for the ARO to kick him off the ballot paper, but I hope it happens anyway so I can get a celebratory drink.
Having stood for election, and having had to go round the houses in Old Swan *twice* because I wasn't confident I'd gotten my forms right, I can confirm that you and your agent have to be VERY careful.
The reason why Nutter put down a Stoke address as his home address was obviously to make himself look like a local candidate - that's incredibly stupid if true.
Jezbollah
Member
That would be glorious.
Huw_Dawson
Member
UKIP's claiming that he's moving in now. If it wasn't his home address when he submitted that form, it's not valid for the election.
I saw someone comment on Twitter that this would allow for a valid petition for invalidation against the successful candidate. So if he wins... he might have to win twice. Would be hilarious.
If the first major act Nutter did as Kipper leader was to screw up his own crowning glory of becoming an MP, that is going to make his party look like absolute morons - just what we want before UKIP's defence of all their lovely council seats in May.
Naturally the Lib Dem is gonna win anyway - he's a local doctor who's also served as a councillor in the Potteries before. (I can hope)
I saw someone comment on Twitter that this would allow for a valid petition for invalidation against the successful candidate. So if he wins... he might have to win twice. Would be hilarious.
If the first major act Nutter did as Kipper leader was to screw up his own crowning glory of becoming an MP, that is going to make his party look like absolute morons - just what we want before UKIP's defence of all their lovely council seats in May.
Naturally the Lib Dem is gonna win anyway - he's a local doctor who's also served as a councillor in the Potteries before. (I can hope)
Huw_Dawson
Member
We've already seen the damage control from Watson - they'll apparently be back in months.
(There won't be a functioning Labour Party in months)
This is what's about to happen to the Labour Party:
1. Labour three-line whips against the sentiment of 63% of its own voters. (BTW, this 2-to-1 ratio is very similar to the 2-to-1 ratio of Labour voters who've switched to Lib Dems vs the Tories and UKIP - Labour are bleeding out of all holes right now)
2. A small-to-medium rebellion from senior MPs once again puts Corbyn's leadership in question, although not as strongly as last year.
3. Labour loses/EXTREMELY narrowly holds two should-be-a-shoe-in seats to hard-right candidates, or more optimistically the Lib Dems.
4. After a possible rout, May triggers A50 and we get the immediate consequences of that.
5. Labour then asks voters to re-elect them in councils across the country.
6. Last year's predicted rout (Labour losing several hundred council seats) once again threatens the party.
At this point, the poop is arcing quite nicely towards the spinning blades.
PJV3
Member
UKIP's claiming that he's moving in now. If it wasn't his home address when he submitted that form, it's not valid for the election.
I saw someone comment on Twitter that this would allow for a valid petition for invalidation against the successful candidate. So if he wins... he might have to win twice. Would be hilarious.
If the first major act Nutter did as Kipper leader was to screw up his own crowning glory of becoming an MP, that is going to make his party look like absolute morons - just what we want before UKIP's defence of all their lovely council seats in May.
Naturally the Lib Dem is gonna win anyway - he's a local doctor who's also served as a councillor in the Potteries before. (I can hope)
Isn't the labour candidate focusing on his day job or something similar, I wouldn't be surprised the way the party is going.
Huw_Dawson
Member
According to Mr Crick, yeah.
It's a Lib Dem requirement for all candidates in top priority seats - i.e. by-elections, target seats in generals - to be available to campaign. It's why you see us out and about a lot at by-elections - even in Oldham, where we had no shot of winning, it was expected for our candidate to be available. I'm gobsmacked that Labour selected a candidate that couldn't actually be out every day knocking on doors.
Knocking on doors is a HUGE chunk of how you engineer solid turnouts, especially in by-elections. In addition, it gives your candidate some reality checks, meaning at things like town halls they're more experienced talking to voters.
If your candidate is not getting invited in for a cup of tea, there's generally an issue with your candidate.
I feel sick all over again.
I thought parliment were there to protect their own citizens, not blindly lead them all off a cliff. I genuinly feel ill by the debate the past few days and the constant parroting of "will of the people" is making me want to bang my head against the table.
My rent is likely going to go up now and I might not have the money to stay on my own anymore. I'm going to lose my flat, my freedom and likely have to go live with my Dad again where I was spiralling to depression. I know I'm basing this off of my doom outlook of Brexit, but genuinly after everything Teresa May has said which is nothing I have no other choice.
I don't know what the hell I'm going to do.
I thought parliment were there to protect their own citizens, not blindly lead them all off a cliff. I genuinly feel ill by the debate the past few days and the constant parroting of "will of the people" is making me want to bang my head against the table.
My rent is likely going to go up now and I might not have the money to stay on my own anymore. I'm going to lose my flat, my freedom and likely have to go live with my Dad again where I was spiralling to depression. I know I'm basing this off of my doom outlook of Brexit, but genuinly after everything Teresa May has said which is nothing I have no other choice.
I don't know what the hell I'm going to do.
killer_clank
Member
It sucks, but the alternative is millions of other people who voted leave being told their views would be respected and the result implemented would have been lied to. There's no outcome here without millions of people being totally disillusioned in politics, and on balance it probably should be the ones who lost the referendum.
And inflation is likely to go up, this is true, but it should affect the likes of food more quickly than rents, it sucks, but the main people who have to be worried about the low pound are importers rather than your average citizen, prices will go up but prices should be relatively insulated for most things.
It'll stay roughly the same for 2 years until we leave, and no one can really say what the exact deal for leaving will be - it's highly likely we'll have a worse trading relationship with europe after brexit but hopefully we'll have some other trade deals ready to go relatively soon afterwards to help absorb the shock. So it's mostly a case of wait and see, remember in the end the vast majority of countries aren't in the EU and do totally fine, it's really not going to be the end of the world when alls said and done.
Most other countries weren't ever ripped out of a highly integrated trading bloc.
PJV3
Member
That along with an absolute loon trying to blow up the international order in the Whitehouse.
Audioboxer
Member
I've imported nearly everything I own, so yeah it's going to be even worse for me. Thanks for reminding me.
The company I work for relies on the EU a lot. All our companies prices will go up and we'll lose a lot of EU centric clients we have as they won't have a reason to stay in London anymore. One of the partners has recently stepped down and all this put together could cause a lot of problems for our company. I could even lose my job if we lose access to the single market.
Huw_Dawson
Member
If Parl. votes against the final deal, the Gov. should...
Leave the EU without a deal: 34%
Continue to negotiate w/ the EU: 51%
(YouGov)
@BritainElects on Twitter.
That's hardly a ringing endorsement for Hard Brexit, is it?
2020 is going to be a fun election.
Leave the EU without a deal: 34%
Continue to negotiate w/ the EU: 51%
(YouGov)
@BritainElects on Twitter.
That's hardly a ringing endorsement for Hard Brexit, is it?
2020 is going to be a fun election.
killer_clank
Member
True, but it's likely we'll still have some form of free trade with the EU by the time we leave, they've kind of shifted on there being no talk about that during article 50 the past few weeks.
And the EU has a few but not all that many external trade agreements and agreeing a few bilateral treaties to make up some won't be impossible - harder deals to make come with the likes of the US and being very much the junior partner, but then the full EU still have huge trouble closing big trade deals
PJV3
Member
A week is a long time in politics, 2 years with the current state of world affairs makes anything possible.
cyberheater
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So they are voting just about now.
killer_clank
Member
The only important thing here is how many Labour rebels there are. Actually kind of important since depending on how the brexit process goes the ones that vote against will have the moral high ground when Labours next leadership election.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I could dream and suggest that the Labour/Tory rebels are the likely defectors once the government actually goes through with throwing us on to WTO rules.
I think Labour's long term strategy here is that they'll back A50, then spend the next two years throwing the negotiations under the bus - "we'd negotiate a much better Brexit than the Tories are doing!".
Then Labour apparently look good when Brexit blows up in the government's face?
I think Labour's long term strategy here is that they'll back A50, then spend the next two years throwing the negotiations under the bus - "we'd negotiate a much better Brexit than the Tories are doing!".
Then Labour apparently look good when Brexit blows up in the government's face?
cyberheater
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5 mins to go before the results.
killer_clank
Member
Fairly sure Ken Clarke will be the only Tory rebel, alas. The Tories are definitely going hard for Brexit now, if it's a total disaster they'll certainly be in a bad position.
BBC had this:
BREAKINGSNP amendment defeated
European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill
House of Commons
Parliament
Posted at
19:13
The SNP's amendment opposing the bill is defeated by 336 votes to 100 - a majority of 236.
Was that not right then?
Sadly at that point it's far too late. We'll be a tax haven.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Not too late to give them a hell of a kicking at the 2020 GE. There's still three years of campaigning ahead.
cyberheater
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It's a complete waste of time and money but the actual vote is just about to read out I think.
Huw_Dawson
Member
And there goes the Labour Party. Apparently 47 Labour MPs rebelled - the rest of the No's would be the SNP, possibly some NI MPs, Caroline Lucas and 7 Lib Dems who didn't abstain.
I make it two unnaccounted for MPs if you add up 56 (SNP), 7 (LD), 47 (Lab), C. Lucas and Ken Clarke. If the Lib Dem 2 who wanted to abstain got collared last minute that'd make the numbers up.
I make it two unnaccounted for MPs if you add up 56 (SNP), 7 (LD), 47 (Lab), C. Lucas and Ken Clarke. If the Lib Dem 2 who wanted to abstain got collared last minute that'd make the numbers up.
PJV3
Member
cyberheater
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It's happening.
Voting remain will almost certainly mean he'll fail to be re-elected, I don't understand how you can paint this as a selfish act.
In this scenario, voting leave would mean voting against what he believes is right for the sake of his career. That would be the selfish, cowardly vote.
Edit: whoops, a bit late with this
killer_clank
Member
Jeremy Corbyn voting with the Tories, there. What a useless opposition leader
PJV3
Member
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