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The UK votes to leave the European Union

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C

CheDominik

Member
DiGiKerot said:
Scotland and Northern Ireland I'm happy to let go their way - this isn't their mess - but regardless of how they voted, London need to face up and be made accountable for the fact that a large reason for this mess we've gotten ourselves into is due to years of aggressively londo-centric policy. They don't just get to seperate themselves from that. London rules England, they can't abandon it now they've ruined it.
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If the UK leaves everything will get even more London centic. If it weren't so sad it would be hilarious to see every leave bullet point, like protest votes to stick it to the London elites, backfire.
 
Daffy Duck

Daffy Duck

Member
An interesting article on the Guardian.

Democrats across Europe are in shock over Brexit, when they should be jubilant. That a slim majority of British voters – primarily English and Welsh – have acted against their own short- and long-term economic interests to leave us is a blessing. For decades British governments have played a double game: getting all the benefits of EU membership while opting out of its burdens, in the meantime undermining and even blackmailing the club from within. All of this is now over.

To understand why Brexit is such good news we must look not at the lies of the leave camp but at the arguments of remain. They consist essentially of two claims. The first is that leaving would only make things worse – what leave rightly derided as “Project Fear”. Second is remain’s promise that the EU would never be more than a market. Fears over the loss of sovereignty were misguided, remain argued, since the UK would block and veto any future moves in that direction.

Let us pause and reflect on what a remain win would have meant. If they are ever to become functioning and legitimate democratic entities, the EU and the eurozone must reform dramatically. In some cases this means the return of certain powers at regional or national level – all too often “European cooperation” has become homogenisation and needless centralisation. In other cases we may decide to invest more powers at European level if this strengthens its democratic nature and increases our power versus the corporate lobby.

Had remain won the referendum, the EU would have become hostage to British sabotage. Future British prime ministers would veto any fundamental change involving the transfer of sovereignty, arguing, correctly, that their people had voted only for the current set-up of the EU. Britain would continue to demand ever more opt-outs and concessions – playing to the fantasy that membership is a British favour to the rest of Europe. The British press and Europhobe politicians would go on portraying the EU in the most lurid, mendacious and derisory terms, making us look terrible in the eyes of Americans and English-speaking Asians, Africans and Russians.

The problem with Britain was not that it was critical of the EU. The problem was bad faith and delusional thinking. As the referendum debate has shown, the country has not come to terms with its own global irrelevance – hence its refusal to pool sovereignty. It continues to believe that as a sovereign nation it can get everything it had as an EU member, and more. When Europe’s democrats talk about “EU reform” they mean putting arrangements in place to make Europe’s pooling of sovereignty democratic. Britons mean the rollback of that very pooling of sovereignty. For this reason, Britain’s membership would have hit a wall sooner or later.

Which brings us to remain’s conception of the EU as merely “a market”. This is a disastrous view. Markets are never neutral arrangements but always political constructs. Consider whether you allow pharmaceutical companies to market antidepressants directly to consumers, as in the US, or not – as in Europe. Both are “markets”, but the difference in impact on society is profound. Think of environmental standards, genetically modified organisms, anti-trust law (when is a market an oligopoly?), privacy or priorities in enforcement of intellectual property violations. Then there is the question of what should be a market in the first place: education, health, the prison system?

Leaving these decisions to European technocrats means that we effectively hand over control of our society to the corporate lobbies that have direct access to those technocrats. These days global banks and other multinationals operate on a European level while politics still take place on a national level. The consequence is that big corporations can play off one European country against the other in a regulatory race to the bottom, demanding ever lower if not downright homeopathic tax rates.

Is this the EU we want? Or do we build a strong and democratically legitimate countervailing power that can operate on the same European level as the corporate lobby? If the latter, we need to construct a vibrant pan-European political space with real debate and real powers. It is crazy that Europeans have their own court, parliament and currency, but no pan-European public forum to debate what to do with these instruments.

Perhaps the construction of a European demos of this kind is all too much, all too fast. What is clear is that the current EU is corporate and undemocratic and the eurozone is a disaster. Europeans can throw in the towel, dismantle the whole thing and retreat to their powerless little countries. Or they can make a final attempt to make the European project work.

A minority in Britain wanted to be part of this, but the mainstream did not. Let Europe now play hardball in the negotiations and then wish all the best to its British neighbours.
Click to expand...

Source.
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
Hasney said:
xmlpLDp.gif
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I love you
 
A

Ashes

Banned
RedShift said:
Is there any chance of a sort of Denmark-Greenland situation where Scotland, London and Norn Iron can stay in the EU while the rest of the country leaves?

That seems like the best and most democratic solution if it were possible.
Click to expand...

No chance. Lot of Business would suffer up north of England.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
What have voters in London been doing wrong that they now need to change? London returns 73 MPs, not enough to enforce a "London centric policy". If people are unhappy with their MPs they could have taken some responsibility for themselves instead of blaming other people and then blowing the whole country up in a strop.
 
C

Camp Freddie

Member
Palculator said:
So, out of interest, when the Scottish MEP was speaking, at around 1:01 he says something I don't understand which I presume is something Scots? Anybody know what he's saying?
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"chers collègues" [sp?]

French: literally "dear colleagues" but I think they use it the same way we would say "ladies and gentlemen" (a phrase that does not translate well into the egalite/fraternite spirit of the French language).

Why are all our good leaders in Scotland?

Why do we get inbred chinless wonders, drunken uncles and an opposition that runs a national campaign as if he's running for president of a student union.
A whole nation built on a solid bedrock of cunts...
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
hodgy100 said:
its looking increasingly likely that we will end up joining the EEA and everything will be the same, except we have no control over the regulations we have to follow and our economy will be worse off from the mess.
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see, this would IMO give grounds to say fuck the referendum results. If you know the end result of 'leaving' is objectively worse than remaining, then why not just remain? Everything else is just bluster. Are we really going to throw our country down the tubes just so that Fucking Farage can feel smug?

And I know people voted to leave, but there is no way they're going to get what they think they want from it, so whats the point of going through with it in the first place?
 
P

Protome

Member
mrklaw said:
see, this would IMO give grounds to say fuck the referendum results. If you know the end result of 'leaving' is objectively worse than remaining, then why not just remain? Everything else is just bluster. Are we really going to throw our country down the tubes just so that Fucking Farage can feel smug?

And I know people voted to leave, but there is no way they're going to get what they think they want from it, so whats the point of going through with it in the first place?
Click to expand...

The catch is, we don't know if the EU will negotiate a better deal with us and won't until we guarantee that we're leaving.

Which is smart for the EU because it means if the government does turn around and ignore the referendum it's because they did it. Not because the EU told them they wouldn't even possibly get a good deal.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
ReplacementPelican said:
'I'm glad to see that Farage is working hard to sensibly negotiate an exit deal and prove he's not just an angry, vitriolic cunt. See, guys, we all thought Leave didn't know what they were doing but here we are!

Fuck experts and economists, scaremongering with lies of a falling pound! I went to Tescos and a mango was still 69p! Where the economic collapse they're going on about!? Nowhere, all lies'

I think my brain is breaking trying to imagine how these people actually think and reason. It's just unfathomable.
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Funny thing is all those exotic fruits will have huge markups now. And though I rarely buy Mangoes I will probably buy one this week before they go up in price.
 
M

Micael

Member
Protome said:
The catch is, we don't know if the EU will negotiate a better deal with us and won't until we guarantee that we're leaving.

Which is smart for the EU because it means if the government does turn around and ignore the referendum it's because they did it. Not because the EU told them they wouldn't even possibly get a good deal.
Click to expand...

Oh we know, negotiating a better deal would be suicide, more than that the UK already had the best deal of any country.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Daffy Duck said:
An interesting article on the Guardian.



Source.
Click to expand...

yup, sounds about right. A majority votes to leave to get more control, when arguably we have more control and rights within the EU than any other country with all our negotiated opt-outs etc.

If the UK leaves, with all its silly talk of 'free market', leaves the door wide open for a push for closer political union. I think its a fucking stupid idea because the countries are too diverse to support such a thing and it'll end up collapsing - or run entirely by Germany-France. A free market focus with limited regulation to support that would IMO not only be best for the UK but also best for the EU. A single political entity is a fools errand - but is now definitely going to get a shot in the arm with us leaving.
 
S

StayDead

Member
AntChum said:
But 'muh democracy'?
Click to expand...

Democracy should not be used as a base to destroy entire generations of peoples hopes and dreams. There was never a big enough majority to begin with and lots of people who voted leave are regretting it already.

The lies are unraveling from the leave campaign, they tried to dump all the evidence from the website. Democracy in this case is a joke.
 
D

Doc_Drop

Member
Daffy Duck said:
An interesting article on the Guardian.



Source.
Click to expand...

Thing is, I agree and it incenses me to think that most people don't realise the main reason to be involved in the EU, to work together to build a better Europe and a better world. What this article is highlighting is the very nature of Tory politics. I have always wanted a more progressive and realistic government not interested in popularity contests and filling their own coffers. I have never felt the EU is just a market and that it is actually a positive force in changing society for the better. It's the Tories and pathetic Labour government that have resisted change, and the one type of politician that I truly believe would act in the interests of progression and reformation is Corbyn and he is being harassed out of his position because people don't think he is strong enough or whatever that means. Ffs, sometimes I feel alone in this madness
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Protome said:
The catch is, we don't know if the EU will negotiate a better deal with us and won't until we guarantee that we're leaving.

Which is smart for the EU because it means if the government does turn around and ignore the referendum it's because they did it. Not because the EU told them they wouldn't even possibly get a good deal.
Click to expand...

of course we know. How certain do you have to be before you can 'know'?

There is literally no way we get free market access without free movement of population. No way.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
DiGiKerot said:
Scotland and Northern Ireland I'm happy to let go their way - this isn't their mess - but regardless of how they voted, London need to face up and be made accountable for the fact that a large reason for this mess we've gotten ourselves into is due to years of aggressively londo-centric policy. They don't just get to seperate themselves from that. London rules England, they can't abandon it now they've ruined it.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, even if that was entirely true (and I'd argue a few points, such as the need to lean into London as the global economy transitioned - some areas/industries simply couldn't be saved), the so-called London elite are in the best position to insulate themselves. There is still money and opportunity here, so at worst, you'll see people fuck off and take their tax contributions with them. There is nothing to be gained from sticking one to London - it'll take its ball and go.

And to give you an example of how quickly it can adapt, one of our partners who was buying a second home in Denmark (his wife is Danish) is as of today looking at much larger properties for a primary residence and quietly doing the numbers on relocation costs. My girlfriend's best friend is going on "holiday" next weekend to Paris with her husband, a venture capital manager. Spoiler - they're looking for property.

Money means mobility and it'll be shocking how quickly people gtfo if things really start looking bad. Everything is fine until it isn't.
 
P

Protome

Member
mrklaw said:
of course we know. How certain do you have to be before you can 'know'?

There is literally no way we get free market access without free movement of population. No way.
Click to expand...
There can be deals made without free market access, that's not the only way to trade with the EU. It'd certainly be the most beneficial one, but if Leave voters cared about benefits to the country they wouldn't have voted Leave.
 
A

AntChum

Member
StayDead said:
Democracy should not be used as a base to destroy entire generations of peoples hopes and dreams. There was never a big enough majority to begin with and lots of people who voted leave are regretting it already.

The lies are unraveling from the leave campaign, they tried to dump all the evidence from the website. Democracy in this case is a joke.
Click to expand...
I agree wholeheartedly. I was mocking the implication from some that in ignoring the 'will of the people' in the wake of this non-binding referendum the UK would be set down a thorny path towards a totalitarian, undemocratic hellscape.
 
S

SlipperyFishes

Banned
Vollume said:
This is unacceptable but it's so ridiculous exaggerated that I think most would not take it serious to make a noticeable impact with the voting.
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There was also a prominent white dude in the UKIP poster before they photoshopped him out of existence to "prove" all immigrants are just dirty brown people after our jawbs.
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
I just can't believe that Farrage said no trade deal between EU and UK would hurt EU more than the UK. I just... He didn't even laugh or anything. Is he just totally out of his mind?
 
ricardo_sousa11

ricardo_sousa11

Member
RedShift said:
Is there any chance of a sort of Denmark-Greenland situation where Scotland, London and Norn Iron can stay in the EU while the rest of the country leaves?

That seems like the best and most democratic solution if it were possible.
Click to expand...

Id imagine this is exacly what will happen, it would be undemocratic not to follow this path, considering a majority of people in Scotland and Northern Ireland have voted to remain.

This is actually a golden oportunity, the reason why most companies would have a base in the UK is because they belong to the EU and they are english speakers, of course upon leaving, it doesnt make sense, economically, for international companies have a base in the UK, but rather move to EU, if Scotland remains in the EU, it becomes the new best place for those companies to move.

Also, they have been fighting for independence for quite a while now, so this is a golden oportunity for Scotland to achieve that, and grow economically by a huge margin.

I dont think London will become independent though, highly highly unlikely.
 
B

Bony Manifesto

Member
Ashes said:
100 Exotic fruit box in country x= $100
£1=$1.50
£66= $100
£66 = 100 fruit box
£.66p per fruit box

--
£1 = $1
£100=$100
£100= 100 fruit box
£1 = 1 fruit box

What was 66p before will be £1.

Rough simplistic guide.
Click to expand...

Oh you're just talking about the reduction in the purchasing power of Sterling. I thought there was some factor specific to exotic fruit!
 
D

DiGiKerot

Member
Zaph said:
That's the thing, even if that was entirely true (and I'd argue a few points, such as the need to lean into London as the global economy transitioned - some areas/industries simply couldn't be saved), the so-called London elite are in the best position to insulate themselves. There is still money and opportunity here, so at worst, you'll see people fuck off and take their tax contributions with them. There is nothing to be gained from sticking one to London - it'll take its ball and go.

And to give you an example of how quickly it can adapt, one of our partners who was buying a second home in Denmark (his wife is Danish) is as of today looking at much larger properties for a primary residence and quietly doing the numbers on relocation costs. My girlfriend's best friend is going on "holiday" next weekend to Paris with her husband, a venture capital manager. Spoiler - they're looking for property.

Money means mobility and it'll be shocking how quickly people gtfo if things really start looking bad. Everything is fine until it isn't.
Click to expand...

Sorry, you're quite right, just fell into being an angry Northerner for a moment. It's that time of year where I tend to get annoyed at having to foot the extra expense of flying into Heathrow just to get a useful flight anywhere, and this whole situation in general isn't exactly doing wonders for my temperament or my mental health.
 
M

More Fun To Compute

Member
Frankfurter said:
I just can't believe that Farrage said no trade deal between EU and UK would hurt EU more than the UK. I just... He didn't even laugh or anything. Is he just totally out of his mind?
Click to expand...

There are more people on the continent and many in poorer countries so a possible economic depression might possibly be worse overall. I don't think there is a way for Europe to isolate their economies from the UK if it is singled out for punishment treatment.
 
M

Mr. Sam

Member
A colleague of mine has told me she was in the park with her seven-year-old in the park when a drunk man came over and tried to celebrate with her about "Those bloody Czechs getting thrown out." She was worried people might think they were associated so loudly told him off before walking off.
 
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