lastflowers
Banned
:[
The Verge: Windows Phone is dead
- Thread starter giga
- Start date
- Status
The approach and ethos may be different, but there's an obvious acknowledgment that the Surface form-factor is the way to go.
There used to be a ton of differentiation in the hybrid / convertable market. Similar to how much form-factor differentiation used to exist in the pre-smart phone cell phone market. Just as the smart phones eventually settled on the slab being the most practical (and therefor common) form-factor, it seems a similar thing is happening here to the 'post PC' market.
While it makes sense, it's also kind of sad to see. It's fun having all sorts of crazy designs hit the trade shows. And the lack of it lessons the likelihood of someone coming up with an even better form-factor. It's hard to rationalize putting money into exotic / risky designs when the market has spoken though.
The point being, MS actually got something right here ... and everyone is borrowing heavily from it. Not reason to not give credit where it's due. It's like arguing the iPhone wasn't the trend-setter for smart phones.
You didn't follow Apple in the '90s, did you?
They were literally two weeks away from bankruptcy at one point, and had market share comparable to Windows Phone.
It's no more than dead than it was before. IIRC, they do have decent market share in some developing markets.
If they can stick to the Universal Windows app platform and not shift to yet another platform change as they have before, consistently update and showcase flagship phones, and really hammer at the enterprise community, they may be able to inject a modicum of life into it. There's a wealth of developers well-versed in their toolchain, but no one is going to readily invest in app development for them until Microsoft themselves stabilizes and prioritizes the phone platform as an important market beyond lip service.
Showcasing new apps on iOS first isn't a problem -- it's smart as a broader strategy and can serve as a potential showcase for the types of apps you can have on their platform -- but they do need to make sure those apps also promptly make it over to Windows Phone. Otherwise, they're sending the wrong signal to customers and developers alike.
If they can stick to the Universal Windows app platform and not shift to yet another platform change as they have before, consistently update and showcase flagship phones, and really hammer at the enterprise community, they may be able to inject a modicum of life into it. There's a wealth of developers well-versed in their toolchain, but no one is going to readily invest in app development for them until Microsoft themselves stabilizes and prioritizes the phone platform as an important market beyond lip service.
Showcasing new apps on iOS first isn't a problem -- it's smart as a broader strategy and can serve as a potential showcase for the types of apps you can have on their platform -- but they do need to make sure those apps also promptly make it over to Windows Phone. Otherwise, they're sending the wrong signal to customers and developers alike.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
There are outliers, sure. I don't count the iPad Pro as chasing the Surface since it still runs iOS and is mostly just a bigger, souped up iPad.
But the big money is still being made by the iPad (several times over) and most chasers are following that. It's at the point that Microsoft are glowing when they approach $1 billion in sales for Surface, and it's considered a down quarter when the iPad "only" makes $5 billion for Apple.
You can't deny that the field of iPad clones is much larger than the field of Surface clones. It's not even a competition.
I want WP to pull through but MS has done such a shitty job it's really hard to justify investing in the platform beyond the cheap 40$ throwaways. Oddly I've found my biggest use for the is as a great gift for kids who want just wifi and a music player. I think I've bought like 10 of them since the 520 came out and they're great worry free units. Also a nice backup phone or delegated to athletics where you don't want to risk a nice high end model.
But MS has screwed people too many times. I was one of the suckers who bought a WP7 device only for MS to kill support with only a token 7.5 update. Then WP8 started off closing the feature gap a bit before seemingly stalling out again. Finally I've had nothing but hellish experiences with WP10 preview. Bricked 2 devices over the course of the updates and the changes to the OS seem almost completely a step in the wrong direction.
If they had been consistent they could have slowly built momentum, but by now even most of the fans can list of a half dozen huge omissions or missteps. I just hope that the collapse of BB10 will open them up to a little growth because mobile needs a 3rd player and that's seeming less and less likely as people build app libraries, entrench in ecosystems, and really master the operation of the devices.
But MS has screwed people too many times. I was one of the suckers who bought a WP7 device only for MS to kill support with only a token 7.5 update. Then WP8 started off closing the feature gap a bit before seemingly stalling out again. Finally I've had nothing but hellish experiences with WP10 preview. Bricked 2 devices over the course of the updates and the changes to the OS seem almost completely a step in the wrong direction.
If they had been consistent they could have slowly built momentum, but by now even most of the fans can list of a half dozen huge omissions or missteps. I just hope that the collapse of BB10 will open them up to a little growth because mobile needs a 3rd player and that's seeming less and less likely as people build app libraries, entrench in ecosystems, and really master the operation of the devices.
Not getting any support from Google and Snapchat didn't help along with a ton of other mistakes. Oh well, I still love the platform. Does what I need it to do.
Also iPad Pro, I guess you can say it isn't chasing the Surface line....look at that travesty of a keyboard they made.
Also iPad Pro, I guess you can say it isn't chasing the Surface line....look at that travesty of a keyboard they made.
What? Dude, you said was nobody is trying to copy the Surface design, and you're wrong. It's that simple. I don't understand why you are trying to deflect the obvious Surface influence in modern computing.
Interfectum
Member
It's not just Google and Snapchat anymore. I mean literally anything you buy that has an "app" associated with it excludes Windows Phone. Even if MS gets Google and Snapchat on board they are very, very far behind in the grand scheme of apps and IoT for mobile.
Checks?
Was it ever alive or was it just part of our imagination.
Take a pic of your check(within the secure app) and its instantly deposited. No need to go to the bank.
Take a pic of your check(within the secure app) and its instantly deposited. No need to go to the bank.
Ugg, dont remind me...I was trading and investing a couple thousand bucks at the time (in my late teens/early 20's maybe?). I debated on doing a buy and hold on apple for I think it was 4.50 a share. Their low. Than again at 6.25 a share and I didnt...
As for WP, the more I use my Lumia Icon, the more I dig. It does 95% of what I want app wise or by default (and I like the camera) and just works a lot better. No crashing, smooth and fluid, etc. I just switched because I got surface pro and MS band 2, combined with my desktop, I really want to try full integration. I also mostly use my WP and Surface for productivity related stuff. I dont game much at all anymore. I'm really enjoying Cortana as well.
Personally I dont think WP is dead (I also hope it isnt), I think they need to re-position it USP. Perhaps leverage its functional strengths, productivity, integration potential, etc. Also if they get and take care of some core apps, they can maybe use the fact one doesnt need external apps as a positive. If they make their versions of those core apps better than competing 3rd part apps in some way (better/exclusive integration aspects) etc...
Its almost like the could pull an apple in the sense of focusing on making a phone that "just works", "smooth and easy", "has what you want & need built in 99%"...And you can have apps to ...if you really want em...Maybe emphasis the negative side of apps (or potential negative side)...Target those above 25-30yo, make IOS and Android better for "kids and youngins"...
I'm just shooting ideas from the hip, brainstorming. But yea I think they need to not only get there hardware and software plan in check, but re-position in someway, like they did with surface. (I know its a diff form factor, but use case can create the perception of difference in the same form factor leveraging design and function)
Yeah. They needed them from the start. Devs won't make apps if there are no users, but how do you get users if you have no apps?
The unification of the platform is great and it's a shame it won't really be fully realized.
n64coder
Member
I think that is the plan with UWP. You can make a universal app that runs on a phone/tablet/laptop/desktop.
flaxknuckles
Member
The problem is no one cares to make universal apps for desktop. And why should they when consumers are used to just downloading exes from the net? The selection of apps right now on the Windows Store is so bad most people who even bother to open it will see a pile of useless shit, and then just download what they wanted from the developer's site and never open the Win store ever again. There are no good video players, file archivers, productive apps, etc.
Plus the devs don't have to pay Microsoft a cut of their sales. Unless Microsoft restricts program installs other than the app store like Apple did with Mac OS X then the Windows store will never take off since most people won't ever open it.
Plus the devs don't have to pay Microsoft a cut of their sales. Unless Microsoft restricts program installs other than the app store like Apple did with Mac OS X then the Windows store will never take off since most people won't ever open it.
Called it, but people were arguing with me about it lol:
Windows Phone users: go get yourself an Android to immediately increase your happiness x100.
Stop clinging to a dying platform that couldn't be more dead if it tried. Ditch it.
I did, and I was like the fucking limes guy with this whole new world of apps everywhere. It's seriously like night and day...I don't even consider Windows Phones a smartphone with the zero amount of apps it has.
If I cared about apps, I'd go with Apple, they seem to get apps first and get updated more frequently.
It really won't.
No it won't, lol.
Universal Windows apps are just the next in a series of "but just wait until..." Windows Phone dreams that will never be realized.
Nobody's even making or using apps for Windows 10.
Stop chasing something that's never going to happen (Windows Phone). Just switch to Android or iPhone and be 100x happier right now.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Who is copying the Surface design?
Alpha Phoenix
Member
Windows Phone is the greatest phone ever with the worst support ever.
ClosingADoor
Member
If you're happy with the default apps Windows Phone offers, I think the OS is way better then Android or iOS. I'm pretty happy with it.
I'm more surprised that people still use checks in 2016.
I switched to iPhone and it is worse than my old Windows Phone.
Interframe
Member
Honestly, if your a Windows Phone fan for its design/UI/UX, its makes the most sense to jump to iOS, if your a fan for any other reason than it's design (I have no idea why you would be), then jump ship to Android.
Astral/H3X
Member
Shit I get annoyed just by fiddling with my GF's LG.
GKSilKamina
Member
Windows Phone means life
You will pry my cold dead Windows phone from my cold dead hands. But in all seriousness, the lack of app support is really disappointing. I'm not much of an app user so it doesn't bother me too much, but I can see that being a serious game-breaker to other people.
You will pry my cold dead Windows phone from my cold dead hands. But in all seriousness, the lack of app support is really disappointing. I'm not much of an app user so it doesn't bother me too much, but I can see that being a serious game-breaker to other people.
I dunno, haven't they all converged, hamburger menus, pull down options, swipe lists. Start screen seems like the main difference and do what you like Android. iOS don't you dare customise, oh just the wallpaper then and Windows bringing tiles etc. which are cool. Windows Phone has thrown out the new design for user familiarity right? It was nice that they pushed the envelope but beyond the start screen same old I think. Maybe wrong, haven't followed 10 that closely but few glimpes seems that way. On a positive note, dark theme, thank you Microsoft. Wish my iPhone had that.
JohnnyWestlake
Banned
Before Windows Mobile 10, I would have agreed with this. But, most of the good stuff got ripped out - and calso bearing in mind motion and performance were a big part of what made Windows Phone's UI so great.
Now, I don't see why we don't all just run Android (and I say this as a person who is right this second developing a Universal Windows App for Desktop, Mobile and hopefully X1 on my Lumia 950XL)
You're running VS on a 950 XL?
How long have you been using Windows Phone for?
I've been on the platform since WP7 and fail to see any reason why iOS or Android would be better for me. Some features I've become accustomed to on WP seem to either not exist or not work as well on iOS (and maybe Android, I don't have as much exposure there).
- Automatically reading and replying to my text messages as they arrive in the car over Bluetooth, regardless of whether the car "supports" messaging
- Full offline downloading of maps, so when I'm travelling in another country (US) I still have full access to maps and POIs without using any data
- Having all my contacts (LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, etc) grouped and linked in one place and being able to group and pin specific contacts (ie. my wife) to my home screen for quick access. Granted the old People Hub was a bit better, but hopefully some of that will come back
- Camera features should speak for themselves... but I always have people ask what apps I use to take/edit some of my photos (particularly action shots), and it's awkward when I tell them it's just the built in camera on my phone.
- Geofencing reminders from Cortana (maybe Siri/Android can do this). ie. remind me to get xxx next time I'm at Home Depot
EvilAlPacino
Banned
I'm was a big supporter of Windows Phone since day one. Year after year, I would upgrade to the latest and greatest, but the apps always lacked.
I even gave my wife my old Windows Phones. She even got her parents a pair of Windows Phone.
During my time with Windows Phone, I always told myself that the apps didnt matter. After five years of Windows Phone, I had to move on. Apps do matter, let's not kid ourselves. Reading more major apps were dropping support for Windows Phone did it for me. It finally beat me.
I want Windows Phone to succeed and want the market share to grow, but I just dont see it happening. I miss my Live tiles and how some services was integrated into the OS.
I current have the Samsung Note 5 and I'm enjoying what everyone has been enjoying. I have the apps I want. Before anyone rants about problems with an Android device, I havent had any issues whatsoever. For being my first Android phone, I'm loving it.
When the next Note device launches, my wife will get my current Note.
If I see any changes with Windows Phone, especially with the app content, then I'll consider returning. Windows Phone is a great OS, but I wish it would have done better.
I'm keeping an eye out for the Surface Phone. Would compliment my Surface Pro 3 real nice.
I even gave my wife my old Windows Phones. She even got her parents a pair of Windows Phone.
During my time with Windows Phone, I always told myself that the apps didnt matter. After five years of Windows Phone, I had to move on. Apps do matter, let's not kid ourselves. Reading more major apps were dropping support for Windows Phone did it for me. It finally beat me.
I want Windows Phone to succeed and want the market share to grow, but I just dont see it happening. I miss my Live tiles and how some services was integrated into the OS.
I current have the Samsung Note 5 and I'm enjoying what everyone has been enjoying. I have the apps I want. Before anyone rants about problems with an Android device, I havent had any issues whatsoever. For being my first Android phone, I'm loving it.
When the next Note device launches, my wife will get my current Note.
If I see any changes with Windows Phone, especially with the app content, then I'll consider returning. Windows Phone is a great OS, but I wish it would have done better.
I'm keeping an eye out for the Surface Phone. Would compliment my Surface Pro 3 real nice.
Pretty much. In terms of developer mindshare, Android is almost always a 2nd class citizen compared to iOS.
This is why Microsoft did the right thing to focus on the iOS->UWP bridge and drop the native APK support: nearly all apps are developed for iOS first, so that's where they should focus when creating porting tools.
tiredheadcrab
Member
I agree. I have been thinking for years to switch, but the app support mostly is why i stay with Google.
MS needs a real relaunch and actually invest good design and get 3rd parties on board.
Devices Just stick to 1 or 2 devices a year for fucks sake. None of this 2 devices for America, and here is 1 for Europe that is exclusive, and here is one for India. No. Stop that. Just 1 or 2 devices. If its 2 make them different screen sizes.
Also cut that bullshit naming thing they had with the Lumia's. Lumia 920, Lumia 950, Lumia 800, Lumia 820 Lumia 520. No just stop. Its stupid and annoying as fuck. Just Surface Phone, Surface Phone 2, Surface Phone 3. Done.
As someone said earlier, make the lowest end device a 64gig model and go up to 256gig. It needs to feel premium
Specs I actually wouldnt change the specs of the Lumia 950 line much except the CPU. They should go with intel atom cpus(if they will be ready by Q4. I dont know much about Intels roadmap). Its x86 and Intel has been looking for a way to get into the smartphone market for a while now. They are but not in a big way.
No more stupid 20 megapixel camera. Its too big and nobody is really going to care. Just make it take nice photos for a 12 or 13 megapixel camera. The device should be thin and perhaps flat on the back.
Reveal and Marketing MS had a ton of fun this year showing off the Surface line of devices. It was a neat conference to watch. Panos will probably return with that same energy with the Surface Phone. They should also maybe consider overhauling that website of theirs. It looks good when you are talking about their products. But its not sexy. Apple's site breaks down everything from the CPU to the camera, screen OS, and apps. They should try to make people want their phone.
Also market the device. They didnt have any marketing for the Lumia 950 or 950xl. At their recent press conference they just had a video announcing them with continum and several other features with no release date. I think this was intentional. Those phones were already set to release before they laid Nokia guys off. Buying Nokia was stupid.
3rd party support This is big. They are lacking hugely in this area and its why I wont jump ship from Android. Perhaps they need to start courting 3rd party developers to the platform, or just outright paying them. When or if they do, show off this support on stage at the reveal. Get the xbox team to sign some smaller indie games from ios or android. Show those off as well.
Redstone is coming in the fall and there is rumored to be an update that will allow the phone to connect to a PC, so you can send and receive text messages and phone calls right from the computer. Similar to iOS and OSX. Thats a killer feature.
Even after all this, they probably wont overtake Samsung or Apple in sales. But its a start. They need to use that bank of theirs and just go for it. Make a device that people want to use and makes people want to invest into their ecosystem. In fact it will take a lot to build that brand up if it ever does. If the Surface phone fails then yeah call it a quits and focus on making hybrids.
MS needs a real relaunch and actually invest good design and get 3rd parties on board.
Devices Just stick to 1 or 2 devices a year for fucks sake. None of this 2 devices for America, and here is 1 for Europe that is exclusive, and here is one for India. No. Stop that. Just 1 or 2 devices. If its 2 make them different screen sizes.
Also cut that bullshit naming thing they had with the Lumia's. Lumia 920, Lumia 950, Lumia 800, Lumia 820 Lumia 520. No just stop. Its stupid and annoying as fuck. Just Surface Phone, Surface Phone 2, Surface Phone 3. Done.
As someone said earlier, make the lowest end device a 64gig model and go up to 256gig. It needs to feel premium
Specs I actually wouldnt change the specs of the Lumia 950 line much except the CPU. They should go with intel atom cpus(if they will be ready by Q4. I dont know much about Intels roadmap). Its x86 and Intel has been looking for a way to get into the smartphone market for a while now. They are but not in a big way.
No more stupid 20 megapixel camera. Its too big and nobody is really going to care. Just make it take nice photos for a 12 or 13 megapixel camera. The device should be thin and perhaps flat on the back.
Reveal and Marketing MS had a ton of fun this year showing off the Surface line of devices. It was a neat conference to watch. Panos will probably return with that same energy with the Surface Phone. They should also maybe consider overhauling that website of theirs. It looks good when you are talking about their products. But its not sexy. Apple's site breaks down everything from the CPU to the camera, screen OS, and apps. They should try to make people want their phone.
Also market the device. They didnt have any marketing for the Lumia 950 or 950xl. At their recent press conference they just had a video announcing them with continum and several other features with no release date. I think this was intentional. Those phones were already set to release before they laid Nokia guys off. Buying Nokia was stupid.
3rd party support This is big. They are lacking hugely in this area and its why I wont jump ship from Android. Perhaps they need to start courting 3rd party developers to the platform, or just outright paying them. When or if they do, show off this support on stage at the reveal. Get the xbox team to sign some smaller indie games from ios or android. Show those off as well.
Redstone is coming in the fall and there is rumored to be an update that will allow the phone to connect to a PC, so you can send and receive text messages and phone calls right from the computer. Similar to iOS and OSX. Thats a killer feature.
Even after all this, they probably wont overtake Samsung or Apple in sales. But its a start. They need to use that bank of theirs and just go for it. Make a device that people want to use and makes people want to invest into their ecosystem. In fact it will take a lot to build that brand up if it ever does. If the Surface phone fails then yeah call it a quits and focus on making hybrids.
No. Lumia phones (flagships at least) have always had great cameras which helped differentiate them. If we are coming up with a goal to keep the platform relevant, I don't think that removing features that they are strong in is a good idea.
The 950 and 950 XL phones are already basically flat on the back while still having a 20 MP camera.
I agree. Beside wanting windows integration with my devices the camera aspect sealed the deal for me. I came from android (do have an ipad, etc for ios stuff) and was debating about the app situation, combined with cost and features/functions. While I dont have the latest Lumia (I have a 930/icon), it's camera rocks, its video capturing is very solid and it has good mics. I can throw this thing on a tripod and record very decent quality video/audio (4k) using a stock setup. If I need to record something for a client or for the web this works really well (in context of course).
The office integration is great, action center, etc. Stuff is all new to me and the more I discover the more I enjoy it. I didnt even full understand live tiles till the 3rd day and than I realized how hand that was.
Side Note Question For WP Users - On thing I was bummed out about was how there was no longer direct support for Google voice (text in particular) from what I read. (after the fact, this might have swayed me)...However, am I misunderstanding something, because I receive and can reply using my google voice number as if it was a native text. Shows up in my action center as a normal text, etc. Now I dont think I can text someone and choose to use my Google voice number as an outgoing option (perhaps I'm wrong).
My question is has it always worked like this? Did I misunderstand Google voice support? Was it added back?
I really don't agree. Apple is doing what Apple wants to do and it's entirely a response to their own iPad line than anything Microsoft is doing. Tablets are either a passing fad that will never catch on like smartphones, and/or they just have traditional PC replacement rates as opposed to mobile replacement rates; Apple is responding to shrinking sales by trying to broaden its appeal, rather than "Microsoft is making convertibles, we should too!"
They're much more wedded to their own philosophy than following others; hence why they might be years ahead of the competition in adding new features or technology (PCIe storage, retina screens, metal construction), but years behind the competition in other areas (feature parity with Android).
The Surface is Apple becoming more Apple-like in controlling the hardware to produce a higher-quality tech product, even as in some ways they're doubling down on Windows' old strategy of "Office everywhere" even more than ever by putting it on Android and iOS. I wonder if those two strategies might be counter-intuitive but it's certainly interesting to watch.
lol ... not sure if trolling or just in denial
……forgetit
Member
I get payed for odd jobs in checks all the time. "Hey, can you fix my computer," is the most common scenario.
tiredheadcrab
Member
As long as the back of the phone stays simple. The back of one lumia device looks ugly and has too much going on for my taste. Just a camera lense, microphone, and a flash. However i was thinking of an earlier model rather than the newer one that released.
Also no Yellow color. Silver, black, maybe a shade of light blue, gold. I think Lumias look okay but MS can do way better.
Umm? OS X allows you to install apps from anywhere. The default setting is that apps have to be signed, but even that can be disabled.
But ya, the whole "universal apps will come" thing is kind of a weird optimism. They're relying on a heavy assumption that people will want to use desktop versions of mobile apps. All the killer social apps, like Snapchat, Vine, Periscope, Instagram, Tinder, etc. don't really work in a desktop paradigm. Especially when you have your phone right there.
Just seems so dated. If I'm paying for an "od job" I just send them the money with an app.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I don't know if I'd call them great. When I was doing QA for Windows Phone apps I was shocked by how slow and poor the cameras were after reading nothing but praise in some reviews.
What phones?
The Lumia 1020, while not fast shot-to-shot, is still the benchmark for modern camera phones. A follow up to the 1020, with a current processor to run it, has been the most wanted Windows Phone device for a while now.
The 1520/930/Icon and now 950/XL are all terrific cameras as well that are much quicker than the 1020 while giving up some raw sensor performance.
There's a reason why my iPhone 5/6/6+ owning family members ask me to take photos on my phone and share it with them rather than using their own phones.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
530, 630, 640, 830, 1020 and 1520
I found indoor/low light performance especially bad. Total time to open camera, snap and save was much slower.
I found indoor/low light performance especially bad. Total time to open camera, snap and save was much slower.
……forgetit
Member
Typo, and I'm from a rural area were the people who need their computers fixed don't even know how to open the app store. It's honestly pretty amazing sometimes.
Probably because of where you live. In Oslo everyone uses checks.
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