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[Saint Gregory]

Isn't the long running conventional wisdom that Nintendo holds back on the developer support for 3rd parties to ensure first party games look the best?

I thought that's more or less been the case dating back to the SNES.

That seemed to be the accusations coming from the salty anonymous Wii U developer article that was posted a while back. Several devs stating that they asked Nintendo for support to get their launch titles running better and Nintendo's response was ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

It sounded like Nintendo was struggling to get documentation together for 1st party devs as well back then. They certainly figured it out now though. I wasn't impressed by Smash media at all since I've bought it I'm really impressed by how good some of the models look when you pause the game. Is there some additional AA being applied when the game is frozen for a sort of photo mode?

 

[lukeskymac]

As others have said, it's not to Wii U's credit, only the devs.

 

[omonimo]

There's absolutely zero chance the Wii U version of those multiplats were given equal effort. Zero.

Actually? Of course it's a waste of money for third parties but the first years they tried to dedicate a bit more to study the hardware but surely they can't put extra resources on it just because Nintendo can't handle a toolchain. It's all a Nintendo fault here.

 

[Fularu]

Toolchain are part of the problem but say the hardware limits has nothing to do with the bad performances in the multiplat it's absolutely false.

Much better GPU, a lot more ram and a slightly weaker (which is debatable, it's just the opposite of what's used in both 360 and PS3 (big vs little endian)) CPU shouldn't translate into worse performances unless the toolchains aren't made for it AND the devs aren't willing to pour the money ressources into making them great.

When devs put the effort (like criterion), the games turned out superior to the PS360 versions.

Now the question of whether or not they should upgrade their toolchains and engines is a completely different subject and at this point I would say no, don't bother.

 

[Glass Joe]

You completely missed my point. If Nintendo had designed something like a ps3 or 360 or literally anything else in the same power bracket, their results would be more or less the same.

There is no special chip in the Wii U that prevents screen tearing and smooths out edges or creates "more" color. It's just a low powered IBM CPU paired with a AMD GPU and some RAM, not much different from other consoles. There is no black magic going on here. I mean, the fact that the few Wii U third party games look and run no differently than their ps360 counterparts shows there is nothing special going on under the hood. Nintendo games look the way they do because Nintendo prioritizes different things and goes for a different look than anybody else.

You're right, I am missing your point. PS360 counterparts often run worse on Wii U so there is some difference internally that needs to be accounted for. And isn't the 32mb eDRAM frame buffer the "magic chip" that prevents screen tearing?

I'm not sure what your point is but unless it is contrary to "Nintendo knows how to program on their own hardware better than 3rd Parties" then it doesn't much matter.

 

[kswiston]

Shouldn't this just be titled Nintendo and their ability to make beautiful games? There's nothing going on in these games that couldn't be replicated on the PS4/XB1, but Nintendo has some of the more talented development studios in the world.

Look at what they pulled off with some of the bigger budget Wii games last gen.

 

[guit3457]

This thread needs more pics.

 

[shinobi602]

It's all in the art design and style. The Wii U is more than capable of producing vibrant, gorgeous games.

Obviously it doesn't come close to the Xbox One/PS4 in the technical arena but it doesn't have to. I like that it does its own thing.

 

[ReBurn]

I'm sorry but i don't agree about 3D world, i've had a Ps4 since launch and an Xbox One for almost a year and i still think 3D World is an impressive looking game, i don't have the sharpness on my TV cranked all the way up so i don't see many jaggies ad it looks sharp enough, i certainly don't think it looks blurry at all. And who cares if the worlds are small and simple? It looks great and that's what matters.

Take this from someone who has had a WiiU for less than a week and whose last Nintendo system was a SNES more than 20 years ago.

You don't need to agree. It's just someone trying to play up their opinion that PS4 is universally better, which is completely beside the point of this thread.

Nintendo is delivering some amazingly lush and colorful visuals with the Wii U, and it greatly suits their character roster and game franchises. It also proves that it takes much more than raw horsepower to deliver amazing experiences. It also takes artistic vision and a dedication to quality, which Nintendo has in buckets.

It's not necessary to defend Nintendo against the opinions of the easily offended console warriors. What Nintendo has been producing for their machine speaks for itself.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Mario Kart's aliasing is an absolute eyesore, especially on 4player

framerate takes a shit on 3+ players too

 

[Objectively Bad Opinion]

Why concern yourself with the inner workings when the end result is still something pleasing to the eye.

Why place the credit on hardware that is not deserving of it?

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Whe i see screenshot like this one I can't stop thinking that they fucked the toon look of the game with the lighting effects making Link looking poligonal.

Yup, the lighting really destroys the artstyle. The GCN version just looks so much better, because it succeeds in making the game look like a cartoon.

 

[omonimo]

Are you kidding? 360 is heavily CPU multithreading dependent to achieve high performance. 360 doesn't even have a dedicated sound chip, that's offloaded on CPU resources too. The CPUs on both 360 and PS3 were incredibly overengineered for their day, while all the consoles this gen take a reverse approach to architecture balancing.

Of course if you want gain more performance in a game, you need a good cpu too but 360 it's not cpu centric like ps3. If you try to say cpu on WiiU it's what it needed, I laugh. It's weaker of 2 cpu more older, that's completely crazy think don't compromise the whole performance. Multiplat prove it, for the fuck sake it can't handle the same performance of the older machine with the same graphic assets. It's not a simply toolchain problem.

 

[The Lamp]

Whe i see screenshot like this one I can't stop thinking that they fucked the toon look of the game with the lighting effects making Link looking poligonal.

They definitely did. Still one of the worst HD remakes in memory graphics wise. They ruined what made the original aesthetic appealing and drowned it in bloom lighting.

 

[Saint Gregory]

YAnd isn't the 32mb eDRAM frame buffer the "magic chip" that prevents screen tearing?

The theory that most have been accepting is that the process Nintendo uses to send video to the pad has a by-product of "free" V-sync.

framerate takes a shit on 3+ players too

It's actually still locked @ 60fps even in 4 player but it alternates the framerate to a split 30/30fps for the top and bottom halves of the screen.

 

[nycgamer4ever]

We all know the system is an absolute dinosaur in terms of hardware, yet the deeper I get within its library the more convinced I am that having the best hardware is only a small part of a much larger picture when it comes to producing a games visuals, as evident with any first party exclusive the system has to offer. I know design and art direction play a big part in this, but that's not to say there isn't some decent tech at play.
For instances both Pikmin and 3D world have some of the best texture work I've ever seen and wind waker has some pretty spectacular lighting . All in all Nintendo may have not aimed for the stars with the Wii U' hardware, but that still hasn't stopped it from shining pretty damn bright.

I don't want to be an ass but I'm not seeing anything in these screens that looks like "amazing visuals". Good art style yes but these are last gen visuals imo.

 

[tanooki27]

I don't want to be an ass but I'm not seeing anything in these screens that looks like "amazing visuals". Good art style yes but these are last gen visuals imo.

my prescription is a few carrots each day

 

[Piggus]

I've had a Wii U since Christmas and I'm constantly impressed by the quality of Nintendo's games.

Same here.

 

[Hubble]

Just makes you wonder what Nintendo can do with more modern hardware.

 

[ninjablade]

I don't want to be an ass but I'm not seeing anything in these screens that looks like "amazing visuals". Good art style yes but these are last gen visuals imo.

you can easily post pics of lastgen games that look better in pics, but i guess the main draw is some of those games run at 60fps.

 

[Prevolition]

Not sure how people forget that Wii U is a new console with a newer API and 2GB of ram. It goes a long way when the developers finally get a handle on it.

 

[omonimo]

Much better GPU, a lot more ram and a slightly weaker (which is debatable, it's just the opposite of what's used in both 360 and PS3 (big vs little endian)) CPU shouldn't translate into worse performances unless the toolchains aren't made for it AND the devs aren't willing to pour the money ressources into making them great.

When devs put the effort (like criterion), the games turned out superior to the PS360 versions.

Now the question of whether or not they should upgrade their toolchains and engines is a completely different subject and at this point I would say no, don't bother.

It should, because cpu needs to support the gpu properly, especially with the edram to cooperate, cpu power it's fundamental. Even a slight more powerful cpu of ps360 couldn't be enough.

 

[sörine]

Of course if you want gain more performance in a game, you need a good cpu too but 360 it's not cpu centric like ps3. If you try to say cpu on WiiU it's what it needed, I laughed. It's weaker of a cpu more older, that's completely crazy think don't compromise the whole performance. Multiplat prove it, for the fuck sake it can't handle the performance of the older machine.

IBM actually based Xenon's design on CELL's PPEs, even though 360 released earlier. Both consoles are incredibly CPU heavy.

Espresso isn't older either really. In raw performance Xenon and CELL do trounce it in some respects, while it's competitive in others. Still, all multiplats really prove so far is which studios have the capability/backing to really take advantage of Wii U's architecture and which didn't. The results have been mixed at best.

 

[entremet]

It looks okay, nothing special. I'm not a fan of the excessive bloom and DoF, it's like 2006 all over again.

Interesting you use a game with such terrible art direction--at least for the faces and without mods.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine what a couple of more effects would add to this art style.

Looks quite perfect to me already.

(eventually, like always, some more anti aliasing, but that's about it)

 

[Ploid 3.0]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/6/62/Greninja-Substitute.png

Still the best graphics EVER

Nah, ambient occlusion isn't even almost a new thing. It's probably just nostalgia and the fact that you don't see Zelda in that resolution in a game that often.

 

[Super Stardust]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/6/62/Greninja-Substitute.png

Still the best graphics EVER

It's crazy how good smash looks all while running at 60fps

 

[omonimo]

IBM actually based Xenon's design on CELL's PPEs, even though 360 released earlier. Both consoles are incredibly CPU heavy.

Espresso isn't older either really. In raw performance Xenon and CELL do trounce it in some respects, while it's competitive in others. Still, all multiplats really prove so far is which studios have the capability/backing to really take advantage of Wii U's architecture and which didn't. The results have been mixed at best.

Do you understand, whatever cpu centric were the past console, it's not normal to a more recent hardware use a weaker cpu compared to the past ? You need a cpu at the same level of the whole hardware. Ps4 cpu it's not weaker of the ps3 even it's a gpgpu.

 

[delta25]

Why place the credit on hardware that is not deserving of it?

Why not, Nintendo has proven that regardless of the lack luster hardware the Wii U can still bring the goods contrary to its opposition in regards to the mindset the average consumer has on its visual abilities. Sure the software plays the bigger role in this situations but that's not to say that the hardware doesn't help complement the software as evident by Nintendo ability to use the systems hardware to work for them in producing what have been some of the best looking games this gen.

 

[MLH]

All consoles have the ability to produce amazing visuals, it down to the developers making effective use of the tools they have (i.e not bitching about not having enough memory then making a game which requires more resources than the console has) and picking good art styles (more subjective on whether it looks good).
Personally I think Wind Waker U looks bad, Link looks out of place in the environment (I think the fucked up the lighting/ cell shading as everything appears to have volume when the original game looked flat), also too much bloom. The GC version had better design IMO. It was just lower resolution - a restriction of the console at the time.

 

[impact]

To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine what a couple of more effects would add to this art style.

Looks quite perfect to me already.

(eventually, like always, some more anti aliasing, but that's about it)

It's not effects that is needed, it's native resolution. That's why Wind Waker and Smash actually look as good on my TV as they do in the OP. 3D World looks pretty bad, Tropical Freeze looks downright awful and Pikmin 3 is extremely inconsistent.

I wish we weren't getting games under native res in 2015. It really fucking sucks.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Consistent art direction, a clean aesthetic, and 60fps really can do wonders.

 

[sörine]

Do you understand, whatever cpu centric were the past console, it's not possible to a more recent hardware use a weaker cpu without expect some trouble? Ps4 cpu it's not weaker of the ps3 even it's a gpgpu.

Actually in some respects CELL also outperforms PS4's CPU.

If you want improved performance you have to take advantage of architecture. That's all multiplats on Wii U really prove so far.

 

[nycgamer4ever]

my prescription is a few carrots each day

I have 20/25 eye sight. I see clearly. Not saying these don't look good but it nothing amazing. Maybe I am just used to the new consoles and PC.

 

[omonimo]

Actually in some respects CELL also outperforms PS4's CPU.

If you want improved performance you have to take advantage of architecture. That's all multiplats on Wii U really prove so far.

No. Cell not outperform ps4 cpu in the cpu task. Cell support more gpu task, quite different.

 

[BriGuy]

I sort of fell out of love with Nintendo during the SNES-N64 transition, but their Wii U offerings have given me a new appreciation for the company. Their games may not have all the bells and whistles, but just the fact that they run, and run well without a ton of bugs and necessary patches, is a godsend in this era. And their art direction is phenomenal.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

What is Anti-aliasing?

 

[nycgamer4ever]

you can easily post pics of lastgen games that look better in pics, but i guess the main draw is some of those games run at 60fps.

Yeah the 60fps does make a difference in motion. And I agree these look good. It's just I'm not blown away like some seem to be. I may just be used to the new consoles and pc is all.

 

[Dennis]

I said gackdamn

 

[kevm3]

Considering we had Beyond Two Souls and Uncharted 3 on PS3 or the god of war series, I'm not surprised Nintendo is able to push out some of the visuals they are on a more powerful system than the PS3.

 

[Daviii]

I'd say Nintendo designed Wii U with their development teams in mind first and foremost which seems to be powerful enough for their games.

They needed to underpower that thing if they wanted to include the tablet controller. A matter of cost.

I'd rather have the same hardware $100 cheaper, and apparently the vast majority agrees. I guess Nintendo has figured out the same thing already.

 

[Sami+]

3D World is very geometrically simple, MK8 looks like ass on my TV with its lack of AA at 720p, and Smash has very dull lighting and effects.

Tbh I don't see what you guys are seeing, what whatever. Cartoon visuals don't really do it for me anymore anyway.

 

[fart town usa]

Yea, I don't play my WiiU all that much but I really love the way ZombiU looks, filters FTW and Mario 3D world is absolutely gorgeous. Can't wait to see how the new Zelda will look.

 

[hoserx]

that Pikmin 3 shot makes me want to eat pizza every time, so there's that.

 

[RowdyReverb]

Nintendo seems to be comfortable staying on the left side of the uncanny valley, while PS4/XB1 are trying to push to the right side with varying success

 

[m0t0k1]

This thread needs more pics.

I saved some pikmin pics i took ages ago.

 

[Daviii]

No. Cell not outperform ps4 cpu in the cpu task. Cell support more gpu task, quite different.

There's a misleading slide out there for some cloth simulation using PS4 and PS3. Giving the advantage to cell. It was a very special piece of hardware with many benefits and tradeoffs. Time seems to weight towards the latter.

Or... Sure a hawk flies faster than a dragon, but it doesn't fucking throw fire in the process.

 

[Seanspeed]

my prescription is a few carrots each day

He's right for the most part. I think the DoF and lighting are perhaps 'better than average' from we saw from most 360/PS3 titles, but not anything unseen or unquestionably superior. Its good stuff for the Wii U, but the fact that we need to add the caveat of 'for the Wii U' tells us everything about what the capabilities of the system actually are.

You can argue that its more powerful than the 360 or the PS3(although it *is* arguable), but if it is more powerful, its not by much. Certainly not enough to separate it from them when talking about last gen/next gen.

 

[delta25]

I don't want to be an ass but I'm not seeing anything in these screens that looks like "amazing visuals". Good art style yes but these are last gen visuals imo.

To each his own my friend.

 

[jariw]

I replayed Super Mario 3D World this Christmas (a year after the first play through), and took it slower this time around to really explore the environment (rather than rushing through it as I did last year).

Although newer Wii U games like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker has beaten Mario 3D World graphically now, I'm pretty amazed by the attention to small graphics details that are probably missed by many. I think I've now found more than 20 pixel Luigis (static or with different kind of animations, and there are probably many more than that), and things like

Spoiler

doing a ground punch in Bowser's damaged car

was cool, or all the birds, trees and enemies

Spoiler

that you can interact with in various ways with the Gamepad touch screen

.